Stormraven Probably BA/GK Only

[Billyjoeray]

Taken from this thread on warseer http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5257340 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5257340).

It seems that multiple people have claimed that there will NOT be rules in the February White Dwarf for the inclusion of Stormravens in non-Blood Angels/Grey Knights armies. Personally, I am really disappointed because there is no real reason, fluff or otherwise, why other marine armies shouldn't have access to it. The only real reason I think vanilla marines and wolves don't have it already is that it didn't exist when they were writing those codices. Also, there was a contest painting/modeling contest that was going to be held at my store that I am not sure if I can afford to participate in now if I wont be able to use the SR I bought unless I am playing BA. (Counts as is lame. Sorry, but it's true.) What are your thoughts about this?

[Mr.Pickelz]

I'm kinda glad, as a GK player, but yes it would make sense for all chapters to eventually have it, maybe in 6th ed or something...

Edit: I am glad to see the First New Grey Knight model in a LONG time...

[Connjurus]

It's called balance. This is a game, and sometimes fluff has to take a backseat to rules to keep the game as balanced as possible.

[Lane]

It's called balance.

Given all the toys that Blood Angels get already keeping the Storm Raven out of other marine armies would be an imbalance.

[DarkLink]

I'm interested in if the WD allows for the Storm Raven to be used in current GK armies. I have one Valkyrie conversion sitting around waiting for the new codex, and a second one waiting to be assembled. If I can use those early that would be awesome.

[dethangel]

It's called balance. This is a game, and sometimes fluff has to take a backseat to rules to keep the game as balanced as possible.

ive heard this answer before. no offence but its BS. the point system and FOC maintain the balance of the game. the balance is not effected by wether or not one Space Marine army has availability to something that others have. GW could incorperate the Storm Raven into all the SM armys and it would have no effect on the game balance. there is still hope the Black templars and Dark angel codex's still need an update and maybe they will get to use them.

[Gir]

You could always use one in regular games and just not play with ******* players.

Just saying.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Just like the Vanilla codex, GW has said if you want to rename a special character like Telion for example. Paint him in your chapter colours, and give him a new name, you are allowed to use his rules.

There isn't any rule as yet to say, No you can't use the new Stormraven in anything but the BA's and GK's.
If you want one, buy it, paint it and enjoy.

[DarkLink]

the point system and FOC maintain the balance of the game. the balance is not effected by wether or not one Space Marine army has availability to something that others have. GW could incorperate the Storm Raven into all the SM armys and it would have no effect on the game balance.

Balance is maintained by what units and capabilities are available to a particular army. Point costs and FOC are small parts of this, but your view of balance is far, far too limited.

[Fellend]

Balance is maintained by what units and capabilities are available to a particular army. Point costs and FOC are small parts of this, but your view of balance is far, far too limited.

I agree. Also if all marines have access to everything there really isn't any different marine chapters, they are all just Vanilla marines, making several codices useless (wether this should have been done in the first case is a completely different discussion)

I for one am glad that all marines doesn't have the same units and vehicles, I like having my BT a little bit unique, and if you want fluff reasons here are some to justify why other chapters doesn't use the stormraven:

It's not approved by the codex astartes?

It's hard to manufacture them?

Chapters haven't taken to this modern technology prefering the good old thunderhawk

Normal chapter tactics don't agree with charging head first in with a stormraven

(actually most of this is said in the fluff for the storm raven)

And maybe it'll reach the other chapters soon enough but as it was (relatively) newly introduced to the BA it might take some time, like a 1000 years

[Gir]

The fluff said the Blood Angels only have them because they are testing it for the Mechanicus (As it suits there battle style). It also says there is a rumour that Grey Knights have been using them for a while, but doesn't elborate.

[DrLove42]

I think its good only BA/GK can have them.

It keeps a bit of individuality in a space marine army.

[Night System]

I think its good only BA/GK can have them.

It keeps a bit of individuality in a space marine army.

This.

Same reason normal SM have thunderfire cannons and LS storms.
Same reason Dark Angels have deathwing/ravenwing
Same reason Black Templars have Emperors Champion and Initiate/Neophyte Sqauds
Same reason Space Wolves have an entire different set of troop choices and Thunderwolves

There has to be SOMETHING that actualy makes the different SM codexes different, otherwise they might aswell all be rolled into one book....

[grimm]

This.

Same reason normal SM have thunderfire cannons and LS storms.
Same reason Dark Angels have deathwing/ravenwing
Same reason Black Templars have Emperors Champion and Initiate/Neophyte Sqauds
Same reason Space Wolves have an entire different set of troop choices and Thunderwolves

There has to be SOMETHING that actualy makes the different SM codexes different, otherwise they might aswell all be rolled into one book....

You mean like "grey knights are all psykers and have weapons designed to ignore invul saves?
Or that whole Black Rage Red Thirst bit for the Vampire Marines?

That's not something unique?

[gcsmith]

There is no reason for all marines to have it, simple as. So you cant have the fancy ship in ur list big deal.
All armies have things to differentiate them, and it needs to be based more than just gimicks but also in their units available. black rage is just a gimick

[Billyjoeray]

This.

Same reason normal SM have thunderfire cannons and LS storms.
Same reason Dark Angels have deathwing/ravenwing
Same reason Black Templars have Emperors Champion and Initiate/Neophyte Sqauds
Same reason Space Wolves have an entire different set of troop choices and Thunderwolves

There has to be SOMETHING that actualy makes the different SM codexes different, otherwise they might aswell all be rolled into one book....

Blood Angels already have too many special units.
They have:
1) Sanquinary Guard
2) Librarian Dreads
3) Furioso Dreads
4) Baal Preds
5) Death Company
6) In addition, all of their vehicle units are fast their assault squads count as troops and come with different options, which already makes them play different from other marines right there.

[gcsmith]

All of which give no specific reason to give marines it. All that is, my mate has it I want it argument.
Marines dont want it, codex chapters hate experimental stuff, as such they wont have it.

[MarneusCalgar]

Don´t worry people!!

Sure they won´t allow the rest of Chapters to use it now, but trust me, 60 bucks for each marine player or more if he buys more than one... Is a sweetiest candy to tear it apart from the sales manager...

[Smotku]

I just love how people keep crying about what Blood Angels have and claiming they have more than everybody else. Fluff wise it make sense because the other chapters are not really enthusiastic about trying new things and apparantly the blood angels are.

In actual game terms there are a significant number of things that Codex Space Marines have that BA dont have. Like the following

1. No chapter maste with orbital bombardment
2. no honor guard as a free HQ - Sang guard which are the equivalent take an elte slot
3. A captain that has very limited options - no point in taking one really other hq are better
4 Command squad ( BA honor guard) that cannot take bikes
5. No master of the forge
6 No Ironclad dread - The furioso is the exchange but the Ironclad can do some unique things
7. no venerable dread
8. fewer options for scouts.
9 Drop pod only carries 10 not 12
10 landraider is only 10 not 12
11. no land speedr storm and therefore no disruptor
12 Scoutbikes cant set booby traps
13 no legion of the damned

I am sure that there are a few others I missed but I let my buddy borrow my space marine codex.

I am not complaining about missing all of that with my blood Angels because I realize that i cant have everything. The Blood Angels are a different codex so they have different options. I am seriously considering building a codex chapter to play just soI can use some of that stuff. If you want to play a storm raven build a GK or BA army. You cant has cake and eats it too!

[addamsfamily36]

2. no honor guard as a free HQ - Sang guard which are the equivalent take an elte slot

Erm, actually there is an honor guard unit. In fact i believe blood angels were one of the first to have them :)

But yes as a blood angels player for the entire time i have done the hobby which is going on 14-15 years now, I am glad that they are keeping things specific.

Last time all our traits were stolen and put into a general space marine codex. blood angels only psychic power was taken and given to everyone. Furious charge became a chapter trait. etc etc

then they got codex: white dwarf ........................:mad:

Then they finally get a new codex, they have made them unique. Don't view them as space marines if it makes it easier. If they were as normal as normal space marines then they might as well have just put them into the back of a space marine codex alongside DA and BT. But like it or not

BA, BT, DA, SW, are 4 of the most played chapters outside of ultramarines, and all of them have their traits and fluff.

No doubt when the Marine codex gets redone there will be changes that will make the blood angels codex look expensive again or maybe they'll do a repeat and jsut copy over all the units back to the vanilla codex. Yeh that will make the game fun and varied.

Theres nothing to stop people buying the kit. Hell theres nothing to stop people picking up a blood angels army. But all im hearing is people wanting all the good/cool stuff out of the codex for their own army and whine because they can't have it.

Besides you might still get it in WD or in the future.

I hope not, as there are already units that BA, SW, BT And DA can't take, so why should all marine armies get the units that they can have, but who knows.

[Smotku]

What I meant was that the Functional equivalent of the space marine honor guard is the Sanguinay guard...2+ armor, power weapons, etc.

The functional equivalent of the space marine command squad is the Blood Angel honor guard. The point i was making is that Spce marines can take their honor guard without using up a force org slot. The Blood Abgels have to ise a very lucrative Elite squad to do the same thing.

It was just awkward wording on my part.

[addamsfamily36]

No, its ok, miss understanding on my part. I did not realise the marine codex had both honor guard and a command squad.

Personally i take honour guard over sanguianry guard as its like a free FOC slot and a free sanguinary priest that is a unit upgrade not and independent character :D

[dethangel]

Balance is maintained by what units and capabilities are available to a particular army. Point costs and FOC are small parts of this, but your view of balance is far, far too limited.

again bull****.. units and capibilitys directly effect the cost of a given unit. the cooler and more powerful the unit is, the more it costs. this means your opponent will be able to field more models to compensate for those superior capibilitys. this is balance.. do the math...:rolleyes:
the FOC means its manditory to take specific units. on low point games this matters more but this effectively puts a leash on how many of those special units you can have in a battle. this also helps to maintain balance..
as for what the fluff says. GW changes that so often that its almost a joke..(where are the Squats?):mad:
as for the codex astartes only the vanilla marines (Ultra Marines and its successer chapters) truly adhere to it. so the other marines(BA, DA, BT, and SW) pretty much do what they want. in the name of the emperor.
i to like the chapters having there own special rules and units. but a vehical is a piece of equipment and all of the emperors best should have access to that equipment. im not suggesting that all of them get senguin guard or emperors champions. those are unit "varients" (of existing units that all chapters have) and are special to there respective chapters.
for those of us that field none SM armys it is wicked unfair that the SMs get 5 different codexs to the 1 all others get. so where is the balance in that? :confused:

[addamsfamily36]

again bull****.. units and capibilitys directly effect the cost of a given unit. the cooler and more powerful the unit is, the more it costs. this means your opponent will be able to field more models to compensate for those superior capibilitys. this is balance.. do the math...
the FOC means its manditory to take specific units. on low point games this matters more but this effectively puts a leash on how many of those special units you can have in a battle. this also helps to maintain balance..
as for what the fluff says. GW changes that so often that its almost a joke..(where are the Squats?)
as for the codex astartes only the vanilla marines (Ultra Marines and its successer chapters) truly adhere to it. so the other marines(BA, DA, BT, and SW) pretty much do what they want. in the name of the emperor.
i to like the chapters having there own special rules and units. but a vehical is a piece of equipment and all of the emperors best should have access to that equipment. im not suggesting that all of them get senguin guard or emperors champions. those are unit "varients" (of existing units that all chapters have) and are special to there respective chapters.
for those of us that field none SM armys it is wicked unfair that the SMs get 5 different codexs to the 1 all others get. so where is the balance in that?

I wouldn't call it bull****. There are plenty of cases where expensive units do not equal their abilities and wargear. Just pick up the eldar codex. Half of the units won't ever see the light of day.

As so FOC yes i does make a balance, but it also breaks it. 1 hq and two troops and thats your only requirement. Nothing stops a player from maxing out on all the other slots before having to take another troop or HQ.

There are plenty examples:

vindicator lists
predator lists
and raider armies
mech armies
leafblowers
etc
etc

all use the FOC to maximum potential ( i would say exploit, but they have every right to do so)


As to the vanilla codex vs the others, you say equipment should be standard, but its already been pointed out that not all equipment is in the BA and other codex's that is in the vanilla one. As to the stormraven, its specifically stated that its not fully codex approved. Blood angels are a codex chapter, but they employ tactics and formations that favor their fighting style and their flaws i.e the red thirst and black rage. One piece of wargear that they are using to maximise their assault is the new and untested stormraven. This is a new piece of fluff yes, but its how GW move their fluff and history forwards. would you prefer it stay the same?

[dethangel]

quote: to the vanilla codex vs the others, you say equipment should be standard, but its already been pointed out that not all equipment is in the BA and other codex's that is in the vanilla one. As to the stormraven, its specifically stated that its not fully codex approved. Blood angels are a codex chapter, but they employ tactics and formations that favor their fighting style and their flaws i.e the red thirst and black rage. One piece of wargear that they are using to maximise their assault is the new and untested stormraven. This is a new piece of fluff yes, but its how GW move their fluff and history forwards. would you prefer it stay the same?:quote
first i think the point system could use a little tweeking to better balance the game.
second i think by offering all equipment to all the SM armys creates greater versitility so if i want to change my tactics for a game i dont have to change to a differant codex that is not of my army. just to do a differant mission.
now i run a dark angle army. wouldnt you think that the deathwing and ravenwing would fit with the stormraven perfectly?
by the way the fluff is crap it changes every time GW wants to increase sales in a given army.
as for change i personaly think the game was way better in 2nd edition.

[addamsfamily36]

first i think the point system could use a little tweeking to better balance the game.
second i think by offering all equipment to all the SM armys creates greater versitility so if i want to change my tactics for a game i dont have to change to a differant codex that is not of my army. just to do a differant mission.
now i run a dark angle army. wouldnt you think that the deathwing and ravenwing would fit with the stormraven perfectly?
by the way the fluff is crap it changes every time GW wants to increase sales in a given army.
as for change i personaly think the game was way better in 2nd edition.

What would you change about the points system?

It might create greater versatility, but it would a) kill off a lot of flavor b) Make space marines ridiculously powerful.

Everyone would just take the strongest elements of wargear from the specific chapters.

You run dark angels?! so you would prefer it if everyone could take a jetbike mounted character, squadrons of ravenwing, or maybe even all terminator armies?

Besides DA are not vanilla. I would agree that a stormraven might fit in with their fluff(and you may still get it if you get a new codex). but GW wrote the fluff for the stormraven, and its quite specific.

Looks like GW ignored their fluff = sales one for this release.

Without fluff the game would have no character. What made you start dark angels? I started Blood angels because of their story. The units now add to their ever growing history/development.

If on the other hand you find the hobby is about playing to win, then your want of the stormraven is more to do with being power hungry more than anything else.

Go play 2nd edition then. i sometimes play the odd 7th edition game of warhammer. just because the game moves forwards doesn't mean you have to play it always. but you do need to move forward if you want to continue playing with the current ranges and releases.

[DarkLink]

again bull****..:

So there's absolutely nothing other than points cost and force org chart that influences balance? It doesn't matter that Orks or Daemons lack access to reliable long ranged anti-tank? Or that Blood Angels and vanilla Marines don't have Long Fangs? Or that Tau don't have a deathstar close combat unit?



units and capibilitys directly effect the cost of a given unit. the cooler and more powerful the unit is, the more it costs. this means your opponent will be able to field more models to compensate for those superior capibilitys. this is balance.. do the math...:rolleyes:

You'll notice I did in fact say that point cost influences balance. What you missed is that I said there were more factors than just point cost.



the FOC means its manditory to take specific units. on low point games this matters more but this effectively puts a leash on how many of those special units you can have in a battle. this also helps to maintain balance..

I refer you to my statement above.


...for those of us that field none SM armys it is wicked unfair that the SMs get 5 different codexs to the 1 all others get. so where is the balance in that? :confused:

Remember, revenue from all those Marine releases fuel GW's profit margin. If it weren't for those releases, we might not have a hobby to argue over.

[Fantomex]

Hell, look at it this way.
Eventually, all SM's will get either the Stormraven, or something that'll make us not care and forget about it.
What GW do has to make some form of business sense, so that leaves the options of making it readily available or providing a product of more/distractionary interest to the other players.

And purely from a fluff point of view, surely the Iron Hands would have some too?
I'll bet they have one of everything somewhere, mothballed for a rainy day..

[Dooley]

Getting back to the POINT of this thread. I would say that if you were to be playing an Army uesing the BA's Codex but painted them in another chapters colors and called tehm what ever you wanted why shouldnt you be aloud to enter your Personalized (or any other chapter variant) colored Storm Raven. I know plenty of folk who have played (and yea I am aware of the blasphemy in such a thing) Space wolves as Dark Angels! So if you have a Salamander colored Army but you built the list out of the Blood Angles book go ahead and paint your Stormraven Green and black and enter it. Hell Make a World Eaters looking Army using the BA's Book and enter it that way! That would really confuse some folk!

As long as you are uesing the rules and points from a published book the models can be painted however you want. And if they STILL dont let you enter it....Well its their contest and I guess they can make what ever rules they want

[Billyjoeray]

I think the whole "Codex Chapters don't like new things" argument is lame and fundamentally flawed because there are plenty of chapters that are supposed to use C:SM that aren't Ultramarines or one of their successor chapters. Look at the Raven Guard (for whom the SR would totally fit the fluff. Even more so than the BA I would argue) or the Salamanders. They were both first generation founded chapters but they still have to use the same generic smurf rules. As a player who is primarily interested in tournament play, I don't want to have to play a stupid "counts as BA" list if I want to use the SR in a tournament because I liked the model enough to buy one. It's also equally lame if I am basically banned from using it because I refuse to "counts as" my Raptors.

[addamsfamily36]

I think the whole "Codex Chapters don't like new things" argument is lame and fundamentally flawed because there are plenty of chapters that are supposed to use C:SM that aren't Ultramarines or one of their successor chapters. Look at the Raven Guard (for whom the SR would totally fit the fluff. Even more so than the BA I would argue) or the Salamanders. They were both first generation founded chapters but they still have to use the same generic smurf rules. As a player who is primarily interested in tournament play, I don't want to have to play a stupid "counts as BA" list if I want to use the SR in a tournament because I liked the model enough to buy one. It's also equally lame if I am basically banned from using it because I refuse to "counts as" my Raptors.

But why do you need one?

because it looks cool?

Then buy one. i have loads of models i have bought purely on the basis to paint, and enjoy.

If on the other hand its a gaming/tournament issue, then its "i want the best" sulking.

If i wanted to win at all costs, i would pick up the codex required to do so. But i would be much happier winning with a force that was built using the codex i had, and sticking to my chapter or race.

For years i used that white dwarf list, even though at the time most converted to just standard marines and used chapter traits etc. But it made winning all the more fun.

[DarkLink]

Some of us don't care for spending $60 on a hunk of plastic we won't actually use. Not everyone like painting for painting's sake.

[addamsfamily36]

Some of us don't care for spending $60 on a hunk of plastic we won't actually use. Not everyone like painting for painting's sake.

Thats not quite what i said.

What i meant was if you really like the model for a model then theres nothing to stop you buying it other than price (which is always going to be an issue, it is an expensive kit) which you pointed out.

As for wanting it for gaming purposes, pick up blood angels of grey knights. Both have or will have it. Don't want it purely because it will make your army more tournament effective (by the way thats not aimed at you thats a general example)

I want venerable dreadnoughts. I would rather have one over a death company dread in fact, but i can't, not unless i go to another codex, so i'm happy with what i have got.

Marine players have certain options.

blood angels have others as do space wolves , dark angels and black templars in particular the land raider crusader i feel should have remained standard to them but it didn't. Now we have even more land raider variants.

copy and pasting units and rules from one from codex to the another has been done before and it pretty much killed blood angels last time. I refuse to see it happen again. It's quite frankly boring at the end of the day.

[Brotherjames]

I dunno I'm for having exclusive units. What would be the point of different codices if there wasn't? when alot of people mention balance I'm pretty sure that a 200pt unit wont make or break an army. I've heard to many people complain about not getting an SR but not once have I heard a space puppy or BA player complain they didn't get a thunderfire cannon or a ironclad dred which are exclusive to the "vanilla" marines also if you are using forge world you have access to the cestus ram which will do a similar job with a "BF melta G" and 10 termies

[Gir]

This was posted over at Warseer:

http://22ndvrrr.blogspot.com/2011/01/raptors-test-stormraven-gunship.html

Have to say, removing the top turret and air intake drastically changes the model for the better.

[Fellend]

Personally I wish my BT had vanguard/sternguard veterans, chapter tactics, stormravens, descent of angels, thunderfire cannons, Vulkan, Shrike, The new space shark dude, Land raider redeemers and blood claws for my dreads.

And while we are at the topic of making all armies exactly the same for the purpose of wining tournaments, give me defilers, railguns, massive monsterous creatures with rail guns and redeemer flamers, oblitarators and lash....

See where I'm going with this? Yes it would be nice and easy to win if your army had access to everything but the whole point of having different armies is that they are different, they are played different and have different strength and weaknesses. While it makes sense that "all space marines" would have the same equipment, they don't.

Think of each chapter as a country. Notice how each country has different "wargear", why? because it suits there tactics and their style, does it suck to have tanks made for heavy snow if you invade a country with deserts? Yes, yes it does. But sometimes you just have to live with it, even if your allied country might have tanks made for that kind of combat.

[Defenestratus]

Just like the Vanilla codex, GW has said if you want to rename a special character like Telion for example. Paint him in your chapter colours, and give him a new name, you are allowed to use his rules.

There isn't any rule as yet to say, No you can't use the new Stormraven in anything but the BA's and GK's.
If you want one, buy it, paint it and enjoy.

I'm sorry but you can't just mix and match codex rules. If the storm raven doesn't exist in the SM codex, you can't start taking units from the SM codex and the BA codex and just mish-mash them together (unless its Apoc)


Personally I wish my BT had vanguard/sternguard veterans, chapter tactics, stormravens, descent of angels, thunderfire cannons, Vulkan, Shrike, The new space shark dude, Land raider redeemers and blood claws for my dreads.

And while we are at the topic of making all armies exactly the same for the purpose of wining tournaments, give me defilers, railguns, massive monsterous creatures with rail guns and redeemer flamers, oblitarators and lash....

See where I'm going with this? Yes it would be nice and easy to win if your army had access to everything but the whole point of having different armies is that they are different, they are played different and have different strength and weaknesses. While it makes sense that "all space marines" would have the same equipment, they don't.

Think of each chapter as a country. Notice how each country has different "wargear", why? because it suits there tactics and their style, does it suck to have tanks made for heavy snow if you invade a country with deserts? Yes, yes it does. But sometimes you just have to live with it, even if your allied country might have tanks made for that kind of combat.

+1

On the other hand, I really would like to have a unit of vanguard vets for my eldar army.

[Pendragon38]

What if your a space marine player who has strong ties to the AM, and wants to have it in there army for a VTOL would you allow that if the fluff was right and that I could build it for myself to have in my army. And by the way the only army that really deserves it is the Iron Hands they have strong ties to AM,and I can think of a few things Razorback and the thunder fire cannon (AKA) Thudd gun.

[Dezmo1218]

As soon as the BA Codex hit stores we had a few people at my LGS (including myself) scratch-build a Stormraven, but I was the only BA player. The others were Codex players of some flavor, but still wanted to have the SR included in their lists because they were so "cool". With the store's 'friendly house rules' (some of us play Imperial Armour-heavy lists), anyone could field what they wanted if the opponent gave consent, but that really took away from the BA flavor. If you love the idea of a SR so much, and I am echoing others here, just start a BA army. It'll tally up fast since at minimum, those SRs are 200 pts a pop.

[plawolf]

This was posted over at Warseer:

http://22ndvrrr.blogspot.com/2011/01/raptors-test-stormraven-gunship.html

Have to say, removing the top turret and air intake drastically changes the model for the better.

Now that's closer to how the SR SHOULD look. Slap a slightly modified razorback turrent on top and we are good to go!

Glad to see removing the top baggage doesn't seem to be that hard!

Now I can't wait to get the kit so I can see how easy it will be to change the tail out for a Valk's.

[DarkLink]

I agree. Replace the top turret and vent, and extend the hull back rather than having the wings hanging over nothing, and the models actually looks cool.

[Lockark]

Not sure if this was mentioned but. I thought the fluff explanation in the new book for why Blood Angles and there Successors have the Storm-raven is because the Blood Angles reclaimed a Emperor class titan. Other wise the Storm Raven is a Grey Knight only vehicle.

[addamsfamily36]

Not sure if this was mentioned but. I thought the fluff explanation in the new book for why Blood Angles and there Successors have the Storm-raven is because the Blood Angles reclaimed a Emperor class titan. Other wise the Storm Raven is a Grey Knight only vehicle.

If i recall correctly, i believe they gave that as a gift to the mechanicus in hope to bridge the gap in their relations after they "kept" and refused to give up the plans for the Baal predator.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Actually got to look at the Stormraven and new BA dreadnought today at GW Melbourne.
Though i still dont like the look of it, i think its still ugly and i dont care for the reasons behind the fluff of why or who's, its still ugly.

I know a freind is buying atleast 2 when he can, but i just cant accepts that it's a replacement for GW not to worry about the Thunderhawk, so they give you the kiddy version...Stormraven.

Unless the SM's are sitting on each others lay, and drag the dreadnought along its just not practical, its too small.
The dreadnought on the other hand looks amazing, so many options, and great skill in its design and options.
Had a discussion how a 10 tonne dreadnought could drag a titan, still i know its fictitous fluff, but still a stupid rule.
For those who dont know, the harpoon is mounted above the head, looks like a grenade launcher bus is double barrelled haproon.

[Lockark]

If i recall correctly, i believe they gave that as a gift to the mechanicus in hope to bridge the gap in their relations after they "kept" and refused to give up the plans for the Baal predator.

Well that. Plus getting the Storm Raven.

Could be wrong thow.

[plawolf]

Not sure if this was mentioned but. I thought the fluff explanation in the new book for why Blood Angles and there Successors have the Storm-raven is because the Blood Angles reclaimed a Emperor class titan. Other wise the Storm Raven is a Grey Knight only vehicle.

Are you sure thats not the Blood Ravens in one of the DOW games?

[Lockark]

Are you sure thats not the Blood Ravens in one of the DOW games?

Wait, what? Last I checked there weren't any storm Ravens in the Dawn of war games.

=|

[FastEd]

I know a freind is buying atleast 2 when he can, but i just cant accepts that it's a replacement for GW not to worry about the Thunderhawk, so they give you the kiddy version...Stormraven.

Unless the SM's are sitting on each others lay, and drag the dreadnought along its just not practical, its too small.
The dreadnought on the other hand looks amazing, so many options, and great skill in its design and options.

Who says this is a replacement for the thunderhawk? It's not like there was a plastic T.Hawk we all knew about and they decided to pull it in favor of the stormraven. If anything this is a step toward getting a plastic thunderhawk model, in line with the gargant and baneblade(s).

As for the size of the model, go ahead and check inside a rhino, or even a land raider. Unforunatly GW is really bad at making things to correct scale. In fact, with the game being at the 28-32mm scale the only things that are actually scaled correctly are the vehicles, save for distortions done to fit an infantry model that was visible. To my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong as I may be forgetting something, the only vehicle crew that was actually to scale with the vehicle was the old Ork trukk driver and gunner.

Also, yes, the stormraven has some issues with the design (which I went over in another stormraven thread), and the new Blood Angels dreadnought is fantastic.

[Gir]

The valkyire can actually fit a full crew too (Forgeworld sell it).

But I suggest people who hate this model go and see one in person. It's hard to describe how much better this thing looks in person.

[FastEd]

Wow, I totally didn't even think of that. Though, unless the Valk crew is smaller then normal, and I'm pretty sure they are the same size as other Cadians, that would mean the Valk is actually to big, which I am TOTALLY fine with because of how much I love that model. I don't even play IG anymore and I own one. :)

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Gir, i saw it today at GW Melbourne, and i still dont like it.

[FastEd]

Ah, but do you see it's potential to be cool with some work?

[Gir]

Wow, I totally didn't even think of that. Though, unless the Valk crew is smaller then normal, and I'm pretty sure they are the same size as other Cadians, that would mean the Valk is actually to big, which I am TOTALLY fine with because of how much I love that model. I don't even play IG anymore and I own one. :)

I love it too. I have a Steel Eagle for my Blood Angels with scouts as the snipers :P


Gir, i saw it today at GW Melbourne, and i still dont like it.

Personal preferance also comes into it, but you have to admit it looks better person then it does in pictures.

[Defenestratus]

Personal preferance also comes into it, but you have to admit it looks better person then it does in pictures.

I think it looks a ton better just in the pictures posted on BoLS front page today. Might not have to chop that intake off after all!

[Defenestratus]

Actually got to look at the Stormraven and new BA dreadnought today at GW Melbourne.
Though i still dont like the look of it, i think its still ugly and i dont care for the reasons behind the fluff of why or who's, its still ugly.

I know a freind is buying atleast 2 when he can, but i just cant accepts that it's a replacement for GW not to worry about the Thunderhawk, so they give you the kiddy version...Stormraven.

Such bitterness about a model - did it insult your honor or something? Perhaps it killed a flock of kittens? Maybe it kidnapped your dog?

Not since the achilles land raider have I seen so much anger.

Also, if you think its "too small" and you can't fit the models in there...

Have you ever tried to stuff 10 space marines in a rhino? How about 12 terminators in a land raider? If you have successfully done that then may I interest you in a job to organize my closet? I have too much stuff to cram in a confined space.

[Gir]

I think it looks a ton better just in the pictures posted on BoLS front page today. Might not have to chop that intake off after all!

The top intake is MUCH smaller then any picture makes it out to be.

[Brass Scorpion]

Not since the achilles land raider have I seen so much anger. This topic thead was consumed by its own hate pages ago. Time to move on to better things...

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Defenestratus, owe i didnt know you were the Moral Police on this Forum. If i want to give my opinions, you dont have have a right to stop me. I'm just giving my opinion that like others that in the pictures, and more so in person, that i find that the Stormraven is not something i would buycompared to just looks.

Would you order a meal at a 5-star restaurant on the grounds that it looks like something that has been in the back of the fridge for 6 months?? Did you know when you get served a meal if it doesn't look appealing we already condemn its taste too.
Same reasoning here, for me i think it looks like a brick with so many design faults. The grip to hold the dreadnought is a let down, it's just this little socket under the wings with cable, thats it...could have done more with it.
The turret on the roof, lack of field of vision, Multi-Meltas are limited range and from a front arc, lack ability to fire at sufficent targets. Over all in my opinon, its squat, ugly and i dont buy miniatures that lookthat bad.
I got into SoB as they are one of the most visually pleasing army with so much detail, compared to just another SM army. Ibuy things that look great, then make sure they work of course.

As for your coments on did it kill my dog, my dog just died last week, i dont take kindly to use of animal cruelty ok. Not in jest or seriousness, but thats like me getting into a debate over downloadning mvies with you.
For a note, i actually liked the Achillies LR.

[Pendragon38]

(BITE HIS EAR OFF Tyson) I Agree

I'll end up buying one and I don't play BA! Its got its ups and downs for a model but I like a good challenge to make it cool.

Sister Rosette, You & I have disagreed in the past about a Repressor tank so I see your point.:eek:

sorry about your dog:(

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Thanks Pendragon38, he was a maltese cross/****su, cute dog, freindly and much a family member.

Whats wrong with the Repressor??? Its a great transport and much better than the Rhino.
Yeah, am hearing that alot about lots of people wanting to convert the thing, to me that says bundles when people say its a flying design flaw.

Talking to many other players, and reading posts on here by more, so many want to convert it, change the wings, weapons, turret, and rear tail.
Personnally i agree with you, i think others can make it better.
Good luck converting it.

[isotope99]

FYI, my WD arrived today and, although they have reprinted all the stormraven rules (inc points costs) there is nothing that I can see that officially allows you to take them in any other army.

[Brass Scorpion]

FYI, my WD arrived today and, although they have reprinted all the stormraven rules (inc points costs) there is nothing that I can see that officially allows you to take them in any other army. That seems to be the consensus for the moment, that the Stormraven will be BA and GK only at least for a while. That doesn't mean GW won't do an addendum later on for other Marines, but for the moment it's strictly BA and GK in official rules.

[addamsfamily36]

FYI, my WD arrived today and, although they have reprinted all the stormraven rules (inc points costs) there is nothing that I can see that officially allows you to take them in any other army.

Interesting. I was going to bring news from a source today. They implied the rules were in WD and that they were for everyone, but they didn't specify which WD, and how much of the article they had seen.

So it doesn't have a paragraph saying, if you wish to field, or you may now field the stormraven in your space marine army etc etc?

[plawolf]

If they have reprinted the rules, options and points cost, then that is clearly paving the way for it to be made available as a bolt-on to other books. There would be no need to do that otherwise (unless the writing staff is that bad that they needed the filler to make the word count :p)

They will probably keep it BA and GK only for a while so that those fanbase gets to enjoy the exclusivity a little. Then they may release an add-on like CoD, Spearhead etc (Summer of Fliers anyone?) that will allow other marine armies to field the SR when playing those missions (which will also boost the popularity of the new book as everyone not BA/GK would want to play it to get their SR fix).

That way they make double the money with people having to buy the new book as well as the model, while the BA and GK players don't feel that aggrieved that their exclusive new toy is given to all the other marine players (ie 90% of the 40K players :p) as they still cannot use it in normal games.

Quite clever marketing and PR really.

Of course, if they didn't plan to do this and now want to after reading this, I want some damn royalties dammit! A trio of Stormravens would just about make us square GW. :D

[andrewm9]

If they have reprinted the rules, options and points cost, then that is clearly paving the way for it to be made available as a bolt-on to other books. There would be no need to do that otherwise (unless the writing staff is that bad that they needed the filler to make the word count :p)

They will probably keep it BA and GK only for a while so that those fanbase gets to enjoy the exclusivity a little. Then they may release an add-on like CoD, Spearhead etc (Summer of Fliers anyone?) that will allow other marine armies to field the SR when playing those missions (which will also boost the popularity of the new book as everyone not BA/GK would want to play it to get their SR fix).

That way they make double the money with people having to buy the new book as well as the model, while the BA and GK players don't feel that aggrieved that their exclusive new toy is given to all the other marine players (ie 90% of the 40K players :p) as they still cannot use it in normal games.

Quite clever marketing and PR really.

Of course, if they didn't plan to do this and now want to after reading this, I want some damn royalties dammit! A trio of Stormravens would just about make us square GW. :D

This is similar to when WD showed the Legion of the Damned in all thier new glory and reprinted their rules. Other Space Marines didn't pick up thier rules so why should the reverse be true. Though I can see in the future where they would make it available. It just makes sense to do so. The same applies with the Thunderfire. Though the Thunderfire is a pain in the *** to assemble (personal gripe) with lots of pinning and filing down.

[DarkLink]

FYI, my WD arrived today and, although they have reprinted all the stormraven rules (inc points costs) there is nothing that I can see that officially allows you to take them in any other army.


That seems to be the consensus for the moment, that the Stormraven will be BA and GK only at least for a while. That doesn't mean GW won't do an addendum later on for other Marines, but for the moment it's strictly BA and GK in official rules.

By GK, do you mean the current Daemonhunters, or only the new codex?

[Dezmo1218]

By GK, do you mean the current Daemonhunters, or only the new codex?

Eh, I don't think my LGS will mind the older GK codex players using the BA Storm Pig rules for the time being, until they get their rules update. Rename the 'Skies of Blood' special rule to....... 'Skies of Grey' or 'Knight Skies'? ;)

[DarkLink]

That's what I'm hoping, as I have a converted valkyrie just waiting for the new codex.

[Gir]

FYI, my WD arrived today and, although they have reprinted all the stormraven rules (inc points costs) there is nothing that I can see that officially allows you to take them in any other army.

So Marine players can use it in Apoc without buying the BA codex, and Marine players can use it normal games when they're not playing against jerks. Everybody wins.

[DarkLink]

Then why not just say flat out that any Marine army can take them?

[addamsfamily36]

Ok, read the article (had a sneeky peak).

All the way through it talks about how they wanted to introduce the stormraven into the space marine range, and blood angels were the perfect solution to introduce the model.

Now the article has got the rules, but it doesn't give them to all chapters. It mentions Grey knights and also says (see aprils WD for further info).

So we could see GK rules for the stormraven or all chapters rules for the stormraven in april.

Even if we don;t, the article makes it clear, that eventually the raven will become available to the more generic marines.

hope this helps

[DarkLink]

So all it has are the rules, and states that other chapters may or may not eventually get access? What was the point, then? Just getting the rules out for Apoc?

[Gir]

Just getting the rules out for Apoc?

Sounds about right to me. It's a cheap model as far as apoc only models go. (Not that I'd care about non blood angel/grey knights marines/chaos using it.)

[DrLove42]

Theres even a data sheet that uses 3 ravens and bit and pieces. On that it says use it as a flier in Apoc games.

[Daemonette666]

I have to agree with you there. LOL The Black Templars and Dark Angels Codexes are old codexes and GW has not deemed to write an update to include any of the new stuff into their list yet. Why bother, just add them into the new codex when ti eventually gets released.

There are so many armies that need updates or official releases to allow them to use weapons and equipment that has been released since their oooooold codex was written.

Chaos Marines, could get drop pods, Multi-Meltas, and Plasma cannons, and a reduced points cost for their weapons, and maybe even get scouts or a form of initiate troop chouice that is cheaper.

Black Templar weapons could be reduced in cost to be brought in line with the rest of the SM codexes, and their vehicles could get smoke launchers and search lights for free.

Tau, Necrons and Eldar, Sister of Battle, could get their vehicle add ons cheaper, and get things like plasma or frag grenades for free. Sisters need a second weapon, such as a pistol so they can shoot it and assault instead of having to choose to rapid fire and take a charge, or elect to charge and forgoe shooting.

It is just that GW do not want to make updates or official releases to get everything in line with 5th edition, because they will be releasing the new codexii sometime within the next 3 years - maybe, and hopefully that will be before the next edition of 40K comes out.

People want too much, too soon for GWs schedule, and that schedule changes because of mould production problems, other codexes becoming more popular and need ing more time in the lime light, and so on. I just have to stay loyal and rework my army lists to counter the ever increasing difficulties created by Codex Creep super cheese armies out there.

So if Storm Ravens are Blood Angels and GK only, maybe in the next round of codexes they will be included in all SM armies - Landraider Crusaders are a good example of this.

[dwez]

Can I just say 'Mortis Dreadnought'. A Dark Angel only dreadnought from Imperial Armour available to all in the Space Marine Codex but not 'legally' available in the Dark Angels codex. Call it a 'rifleman' and you too can arm your dread like those sneaky fallen.

So if I call a Storm Raven a Storm Crow can I haves one?

[DrLove42]

So if I call a Storm Raven a Storm Crow can I haves one?

If I call a Tau Broadside Battlesuit a Wraithking can i use it in my eldar army?

[dannyat2460]

So if I call a Storm Raven a Storm Crow can I haves one?

Yes sure if you are using the BA codex and not your normal codex then you can paint it what ever colour you want and call it what ever you want

[Brass Scorpion]

Yes sure if you are using the BA codex and not your normal codex then you can paint it what ever colour you want and call it what ever you wantJust please don't call it any of the stupid nicknames I've seen for it on another, more populated forum.

[plawolf]

Just please don't call it any of the stupid nicknames I've seen for it on another, more populated forum.

What? The Storm-pregnant-goldfish? :p

[DarkLink]

Storm Lunch Box? Storm Brick? Storm Flying Rock?

[Brass Scorpion]

What? The Storm-pregnant-goldfish?

Storm Lunch Box? Storm Brick? Storm Flying Rock?
All of those are better than the trendy everyone let's call it a (deleted by the Inquisition) crap going on somewhere else. And at least they are somewhat original.

I'll call it "the one brick that should not be red" or "the model that should not be named" or perhaps "Carl". I actually pre-ordered one of these models and am okay with how it looks, but it's still fun to make up goofy names isn't it?

[isotope99]

The drizzle chicken :p

[Daemonette666]

All of those are better than the trendy everyone let's call it a (deleted by the Inquisition) crap going on somewhere else. And at least they are somewhat original.

I'll call it "the one brick that should not be red" or "the model that should not be named" or perhaps "Carl". I actually pre-ordered one of these models and am okay with how it looks, but it's still fun to make up goofy names isn't it?
Lets just get it out there. Everyone wants to say it. the Storm Raven is really a Squat designed variant off the Thunderhawk gunship. So why not call it a Stunty Raven and be done with it.

That would explain why it is not seen every where. The Blood Angels probably found the plans for it in a Tyranids Stomach and sent them to the Adeptus Mechanicus for processing and evaluation. LOL

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

I still think that a Ork Mekboy looteda a broken down Thunderhawk, then SM's killed him and all his Boyz. On finding his plans they mistook them for a lost STC plans.
Had a big celebration..you know, blood drinking, fights, glittering in the daylight that sort of thing, and showed them to the Mechanicus telling them to build them.

[Chuck777]

The real problem is this - GW did a bad job of differentiating BA from C:SM. At first glance the BA appear to have almost all of the non-HQ special toys of the C:SM while giving up only a handful of special units that aren't hugely popular (specifically Thunderfires and LS Storm). In adition to not eliminating special toys, Blood Angels get a horde of really cool new toys AND a better FOC distribution. Its a classic case of C:SM players ogling what they see as the superior codex.

If GW were a better company, they wouldn't have released 2 chapters that are not very divergent from C:SM in the first place (BA & DA) and instead focused on the three other loyal SM chapters that truly are different (SW, BT, GK). I can't help but feel that you could easily combine C:SM, BA and DA into one big, and great a truly glorious, codex...

But then again that won't happen. GW has 6 Loyal Space Marines codices because they know where the bulk of the 40k population lies - most people play SM. It gets boring facing the same old lists over and over again. If GW can feed the majority of players a new codex 2 times a year then that helps to break up the monotony for the players while at the same time increasing sales.

Can I blame them for this? Not really. Is it healthy for the game? Again, not really. This entire thread that is proof that having too many variant marine chapters hurts the community and breeds nothing but contempt and anger.

But, like I said, we can't change it... So we may as well fight about it... :(

[DarkLink]

OT, but in warmachine Cygnar players often refer to Storm Nouns, as there are a half dozen units called Storm X; Storm Blades, Storm Guard, Storm Lances, etc. Storm Raven just reminded me of that.