DE: How to beat the Guard Parking lot?

[Ahrimaneus]

So I've been building up and tooling up a DE army to take to an 1850 Singles tourney at Battlegrounds in Plainville, MA next month. Played against IG today with some rather unpleasant results. Now I'm the first to say I'm not the most experienced DE player having migrated from craftworld eldar but I consider myself a pretty savvy/competitive general. I pose the question to you: How to handle them with DE?

I play pretty much a straight mechanized force and am still in the process of finishing it so I'd very much like opinions, suggestions, experience, etc. in beating IG face in.

For more in depth on my list ideas and playstyle, etc. feel free to check my blog post here (http://ahrimaneus.blogspot.com/2011/01/lists-lists-lists.html).

Thanks in advance for your C&C!

[Yriel_The_Angelic]

Shoot it.

Edit: Dark Lance it.

[Xas]

I'd adapt my list to specifically deal with IG parking lots as it is prolly the only list DE need to specifically prepare for (marines are dealth with with ease on auto-pilot if your a semi competetnt player that doesnt make any mistakes). Maybe swarm armies are the 2nd one to get a specialised unit or two to deal with (footorks, footguard, the 1 in a million nid who plays msotly gautns).

you dont need incubi or bloodbrides. yes they are "nice to have" and make life "easy" against marines but they arent needed. The points can then net you more units that can deal well with parking lots and contribute enough versus marines so you can still beat them.

then you get to their HQs. Without incubi you dont need a 2nd archon with PGL anymore. hes basically the same as the incubi: nice vs marines but not needed. with much poison he especially isnt needed to wound on 4+ on bigger creatures.

then there is asdrubael...

If you ahve problems utilizing your list you probably arent good enough a general to use him yet. He demands a player that fits to his genius as described in the fluff. Without a player that fits that he is just a killing machine that doesnt add anything one or two whole units couldnt do better and be more flexible.



with all that junk trown out you now can look at your codex, read every unit and decide if it would give mechguard problems. there are some real gems in the DE codex if you are meant to see them!

[killyourpride]

Guard lasguns and CC cannot hurt Talos and t/l heat lances are awesome against vehicles but the only problem is getting them there sometimes but you can take 3 and see what happens as MC's tear thru vehicles as you probably well know!

Scourges with heat lances and trueborn/warrior dark lance spam is also a good bet. Haywire grenades and blaster pistols in wytch squads in turbo-boosting raiders will also cause problems.

Mech-Guard always causes me issues tho and my success in blowing things up with dark light weapons is very hit and miss

[somerandomdude]

It may be tough for a newer DE player (heck, it's tough for long-time DE players) but a WWP list may be one of the best things to combat parking lots, and the good news is you don't have to worry about overcompensating for IG.

Our biggest weaknesses versus IG are that we are seriously outgunned/outranged, and we're not points efficient at all. We pay for our 4+ poison and our right to wield darklight, but against Guard we gain no benefit (our old guns were S3 so we would've already wounded the same, and Lance only affects Russes which aren't the most optimal vehicle). We also don't have any real suppression fire other than maybe Scourges w/ Haywire Blasters, so in order to reliably lock down vehicles we either need a ridiculous amount of darklight (not efficient or even feasible at your points level), good movement to get side shots (that's what we're all about, but against parking lots we don't get a lot of great shots) or do it in melee. In order to do it in melee we need a WWP list.

The benefits of the WWP list is that we don't have to deploy our army and watch it get shot up. The Guard have a ridiculous amount of firepower that can wreck our transports early, and after that a lot of their weaponry ignores out FNP (one of the few things that makes up for the point inefficiency of our poison/darklight combo). Deploy light (and safely) and move forward as far as possible. If there are two seperate fronts move your WWP to two seperate areas. Have Beastmasters (I prefer 5 Khymerae and 4-8 Razorwings depending on points for this) come out and multicharge vehicles, preferably locking them in place. Use the Khymerae/Beastmasters to soak up S6+ shots while the Razorwings take the rest, and then continue your assault. Remember, if you're in base contact with a vehicle in your opponent's turn, you still get to swing at it.

Blaster Trueborn can come out of the portal and take a few decent AV10 shots. Reavers are one of the best melta units in the game because of how safe they can be. Wyches with Haywires can multiassault and get a lot of damage results as well.

For Heavy Support anything usually works, but with the WWP Talos/Cronos are obviously better than they would be in regular lists. Being able to give out USRs are will practically is great, and the Talos gives you another Heat Lance option.

Now, you don't have to run a WWP list to beat Guard. The key principles apply to any list you use - side shots, suppression, mobility, and limiting the number of shots they get against you. Things like Nightshields are great against parking lots by keeping certain elements out of range at any given time. Don't spread out, otherwise every tank on their side will have something within their range.

Also, looking over your lists, I'd say generally you should include more Blaster Trueborn. Some of the tricks with DE are the fact that they have great 1+1 potential, which is where you also find their duality, so Blaster Trueborn + Venom is all the balance you could hope to ask for.

[BlindGunn]

<SNIP>
Have Beastmasters (I prefer 5 Khymerae and 4-8 Razorwings depending on points for this) come out and multicharge vehicles, preferably locking them in place.
One thing to note:

Only way to lock down a vehicle is to completely surround it. If you're doing multi-vehicle charges, it's pretty hard to completely surround them. They can turn in place (moving models out of the way until the turn is complete) and if there's a gap large enough - drive out of contact. As long as one vehicle can drive away, the rest can follow it.

Also. I believe (Don't have the Codex here) that all IG Vehicles have Skimmer or Tank Shock anyway (except the walkers). May want someone expendable with a Haywire Grenade or Heat Lance nearby to make the Death or Glory attack for the inevitable Tank Shock.

Just an observation. Otherwise, I agree with most everything you've said. I hate Guard Armour Walls! :(

[somerandomdude]

By "locking them in place" I meant assaulting to get stunned/immobilized results on them. Sorry for the confusion.

[Ahrimaneus]

Thanksgiving for the input so far everyone!

I've had success against some serious shooty armies, most notably 3x ML long fang spacewolves. I'm very quickly learning the ropes of using terrain for firing lanes, etc. I know there's a lot of great stuff in the codex for handling mass vehicles (trueborn with blasters FTW) I guess my most specific question is how to specifically move my list around to try to accommodate some added antitank. 2 wych squads with haywires? I think I'll only be able to field one trueborn venom unit sadly, but I can also potentially pick up some traverse as well. Normally idk if I'd pump points into traverse by giving them caltrops and heat lances but if I'm only taking 1 unit of them I think they'd need to be versatile. More thoughts??

Also, I love vect. He's a monster in CC not to mention reliable with preferred enemy, but that 4+ to seize is huge. Not necessarily cuz I expect it to work, but because it forces you opponent to deploy less aggressively. Huge for DE when they don't get turn 1.

Also, I'd like to avoid scourges, taloi, etc for the time being as I'd rather wait a few months for their new unethical models to come out

[rle68]

imo your better off with the baron using his+1 to go first from the start make him roll the 6 to take it from you
with DE go big or go home make him shoot through terrain to kill your aluminum armada whenever possible

add the duke and then make kabalites fearsome

3 ravagers 3 dl's each 3 units of kabalite trueborns 4 blasters and assorted splinter weapons mounted in raiders with another dl

at 1850 12 dl's 12 blasters in my set i added 6 splinter cannons and 6 shard carbines

hq
the baron
the duke hes a close combat monster too in my mind better than vect with 2+ wounds and cheaper

troops open for you but i use helions in numbers

[Xas]

) I guess my most specific question is how to specifically move my list around to try to accommodate some added antitank. 2 wych squads with haywires?

if you want to change your list I think the most important thing to do is decide if you want to go long-range and abuse positioning/speed or go all-in with a direct charge.


if you want to go the long-range path you have to understand that there basically is one weapon in the codex we are going to talk about as far as anti-tank is concearned: dark lances (ok technically there is another one the void lance but it works the same).

also you want to have all the units that arent sitting in reserve (like a cheapo squad or two to grab home-objectives later on) be in vehicles with nightshields.

every other type of long-range weapon or short ranged anti-tank is useless and wasted points for this tactica. the first because there isnt any model with a wound characteristic that can treaten us at that range AND isnt easilly felled with DLs AND cannot be outmaneuvred by our skimmers. second because we dont want to get nearer than 36" so those expensive trueborn will ideally never shoot.

this tactic however has no points to spare for fancy stuff like vect or more than 1 melee squad to go in and take it home once the enemy is shot 2/3 death.


if you go this route you basically play a denied flank and try to bring your 36" lances to bear on the most outward vehicles so that the distance and your nightshields protect you from most of return fire (those vehicles you shot at should either be destroyed or at least shaken. we are talking ~15-18 lances here focusing on 1-3 vehicles). it can be done and is very frustrating for your oponent.



the other way is to go all-in. then you want to get stuck in with the vehicles, use blasters, blast pistols and haywires and hope for the best. again a flank/denied flank can help you reduce incoming fire by useing half of your oponents tanks to grant cover/denie LOS to your units. the problem with this tactic is that any half-sane IG player will have a ton of heavy flamers on their vehicles as hull weapons so they can be very deadly in close-range/"melee".

[L'Etat Cest Moi]

Charge in blindly with more than they can shoot at. You can beat both parking lots and Chimera trains this way.

I run a ten vehicle list with Vect. Depending on deployment I can have everything within assault range on the top of turn one.

The key is prioritizing. That manticore may look scary, but Chimeras are easier kill points plus if it is objective based the squishy guys inside dying will not help your opponent. Can you imagine having your opponent's entire army on your side of the board before you even roll a dice? It is too much to deal with. They collapse. High risk strategy, but huge reward.

[Da Gargoyle]

How the IG stops Dark Eldar in an assault.

Your armoured units form a line abreast across the field. In front is an veteran infantry screen armed with plasma and or melta guns. At least 3 squads who provide a barrier to DE assault.

The infantry screen will not last 5 seconds once the DE hit the line. However, having slaughtered them, the DE are now out of their vehicles and standing 6" away from a big gun line with no chance of assaulting before at least one round of pie templates, Las Cannon, multi lasers and heavy bolters.

Who would your money be on? :eek:

p.s. If you are light on for points replace Vets with conscripts or penal legion troops.

[Defenestratus]

Charge in blindly with more than they can shoot at. You can beat both parking lots and Chimera trains this way.

This has to be the worst idea ever when facing down the IG - especially while using DE who are neither tough nor voluminous.

Remember, no matter how many guys you bring, the IG bring three times as many flashlights.

[egorene]

Bring Wyches in CC with the tanks , and by the way try to bring a lot of them.

It can work . Shield your raiders or take a portal .
Its a bit tricky to do but it works .
And jetbikes to haunt the infantry

[w7west]

Nightsheilds and flickerfields help this is true. Generally you can severely limit any range 36" weapons coming from tanks, although autocannons and lascannons will still tear you down faster than you total of lances can keep up.

What I have found to be very important against mech guard is to have a strong ground presence. Generally this means 40 or 60 warriors, each 20man squad accompanied by a haemoculi. It doesn't really matter what this squad does other than to spread out and sit in cover on or near an objective all game. I like to give mine lances so they can maybe get a stunned or shaken result at one point in the game.

Even with guards firepower, these warrior squads are all but immune to shooting. Each 20man squad will take several turns of firepower to actually kill, and will almost be impossible to get rid of by shooting without a psycher battle squad to make them break and run. The biggest weakness of this squad is getting assaulted, and IG does not do that as well as de does so you will not have to worry about that.

Having 2-3 ace in the hole squads that you know are at least giving you a very high chance to tie just by being there will lets you focus the rest of your army on disrupting the advance (if any) from the enemy tanks and from reserve you should have some skimmers coming in to contest in later turns.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Well if that's the way IG wants to play, I only have one thing to say.

Always bet on Duke.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

i would suggest alot of kabalites in raiders and a archon with a webway portal. put two squads of wyches in reserve. on first turn shoot your archon as far forward as you can and remain in cover also move your other raiders up in cover. set your self up for a epic second round assualt.

[DarkLink]

This has to be the worst idea ever when facing down the IG - especially while using DE who are neither tough nor voluminous.


With some armies it's the only way. The IG can blow away most armies in one or two turns if they get the chance, and will win long range shooting matches. They break if you can get close, however. Even with bubble-wraps, if you can get into their line you have a shot at winning.

In every game I've played against IG, I was losing badly until I managed to make it into his lines, and then the game turned around. Even with triple plasma vets and the like jumping out and shooting up my units, you can put enough pressure on him that he can't go for objectives, and take his army apart bit by bit.

[L'Etat Cest Moi]

This has to be the worst idea ever when facing down the IG - especially while using DE who are neither tough nor voluminous.

Remember, no matter how many guys you bring, the IG bring three times as many flashlights.

With Dark Lance spam you can stop their scary things from shooting for a turn at the very least. If they have anything on foot via deployment, or a transport gets popped, you kill it (especially if their Commissar is hanging out as you can stop him from giving orders). The idea is that you throw so much stuff at them they can not deal with it.

Yes, things will die, but any match up for DE against IG will have death. This way all your army is in their space right away (ie better than a webway portal) and the control of the board is in your favor (better than sitting back and trying to outshoot. Once your momentum gets going they can't stop you.

EDIT-Made a 1850 list that has 12 vehicles. Even IG can not Anti-Tank that. Factor in 27 dark light weapons and six mobile troops; you can quickly dismount their army/prevent their big guns from shooting plus you have so much maneuverability and speed that you control the rest of the game.

[w7west]

With Dark Lance spam you can stop their scary things from shooting for a turn at the very least. If they have anything on foot via deployment, or a transport gets popped, you kill it (especially if their Commissar is hanging out as you can stop him from giving orders). The idea is that you throw so much stuff at them they can not deal with it.

Yes, things will die, but any match up for DE against IG will have death. This way all your army is in their space right away (ie better than a webway portal) and the control of the board is in your favor (better than sitting back and trying to outshoot. Once your momentum gets going they can't stop you.

EDIT-Made a 1850 list that has 12 vehicles. Even IG can not Anti-Tank that. Factor in 27 dark light weapons and six mobile troops; you can quickly dismount their army/prevent their big guns from shooting plus you have so much maneuverability and speed that you control the rest of the game.

Why would you use more vehicles than neccesary against IG? Dark eldar vehicles are horribly matched against Guard.

At 1850, expect at least half of your vehicles to be destroyed on the first turn. Expect the other half to be shaken / stunned. We are talking about the guard with tanks that have 29 str 5 shots on the move and hundreds of str 5 / 6 backup shots to make sure everything within 30(36)" feels the pain.

Replace those small warrior + transport squads with 20 warrior + haemoc and IG just got some serious problems. While blowing up an entire squad in their transport from one heavy bolter is easy, cleaning up 60+ fnp warriors in cover across the board is a huge problem for IG.

[L'Etat Cest Moi]

Because sitting in cover wins lots of games? Especially when you only get one overpriced special weapon every ten guys. You lose with kill points, and you don't have the mobility to take objectives. Plus, even with FNP warriors drop like flies.

Sitting back lets them prioritize you. Charging at their face sends them into an unplanned panic. I have never lost all of my vehicles playing and form of guard. Once you get in their face you multi-assault Wracks on all the guys that fell out of the popped transports. Between darklance damages and easy kills of their troops, they are at half strength at turn one, plus they have no strategy to counter, plus even if they did, you have so much more mobility the rest of the game to do what you need to do.

[w7west]

Lets not forget that a 20man warrior squad is not very expensive. 200 pts with cannons or 230 with twin lances. What this means is that for around 800 pts you can purchase three insurance policies (20 warriors + haemoc). These squads are capable of ignoring guard firepower AS LONG AS THERE ARE NOT PSYCHER BATTLE SQUAD in range ready to own them.


These are squads that actually do win the game by sitting back in cover, since by doing this you FORCE guard to stop playing their own game and actually move their tanks with covering ground in mind. This is only 800 pts of your army, and is a counter to a lot of the "extreme" netlists since 60 warriors is quite an ideal buffer for any army to chew through.


Duke is also good against guard. If you combine 1k pts of deepstriking antitank from duke with a solid ground force that actually requires flame / assault to kill, guard will have to overextend if they don't want a draw.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Couple of razorwings to harass their armour and infantry for a bit, use the Duke to deepstrike venoms in behind where the soft n sqishy bits are, and then take them apart on two sides with the rest of your army.