Multiple IC's and Disembarking from a transport

[Angelofblades]

I was playing a game the other day with my Blood Angels vs Space Wolves.

We ended up in a situation where I had a LRC half in and out of terrain, in the LRC is a Libby, Sanguinary Priest w/ PW, and 5 Assault terminators. I needed to get them into combat and was close enough to do it without having to move the LRC. Additionally, I didn't want to move the LRC yet until after the terminators got out of it and the remains of a scoring unit got in it, so the LRC could power on through to an objective.

Now, to assure that my terminators got into combat, they would have needed to roll a 5 or 6 for terrain, since the disembarkation from the vehicle would put models in terrain. So I decided to disembark the IC's first from the side of the LRC that wasn't in terrain, and gain the full 8" (2" Disembark + 6" movement), I split the IC's up. Then I disembarked the Termies and rolled for their difficult terrain test and got 4", which including the 2" disembark put the terminators within 2" of the priest and libby. Effectively using the Bols "Slingshot," but in a different sense.

Now at this point my opponent protested and said that neither IC ever left the unit and that they would have had to move as a unit as a whole and that both IC's needed to move 2" back since the unit only got 4" on their difficult terrain test.

I obviously disagreed, since the 2 IC's got me within charge range, and moving them 2" back would have taken them out. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that prevents me from disembarking IC's out first, then moving the unit, and just so happen to have them be in range to have the IC's join them.

[Mycroft Holmes]

What you did was 100% rule correct.

if you had rolled double 1s for your Difficult Terrain test the Terminators might not have reached the 2" cohesion distance and you could have been SOL.

You took a risk and it paid off. Opponents rarely enjoy seeing it though.

Mycroft

[somerandomdude]

I thought at one time that there was a rule that said you couldn't leave and join a unit in the same turn, but I don't think it actually says that, and I can't find it, so you should be completely legal.

[ElCheezus]

1) The IC has to move at the same speed as the unit he's joined with. (with which he's joined)

2) Whether or not an IC is joined to a unit is decided at the *end* of the movement phase.

3) If you were going to disembark the whole unit, I think you'd have to do it all at once instead of disembarking one guy, moving him, then disembarking the rest. They're still one unit at that point. I'm not sure that's spelled out in the BRB, and I don't have access at the moment, but that's my understanding.

1 and 2 are true. If 3 is true, then the IC would have to move based on the unit's difficult terrain roll. I've had opponents "saparate" ICs at the beginning of the movement in order to get the extra die for moving through terrain, so they could manage an extra couple inches for a charge, which isn't right. So really this hinges on my assumption #3. Anyone have a BRB to back up or speak against it?

[somerandomdude]

1) The IC has to move at the same speed as the unit he's joined with. (with which he's joined)
True.


2) Whether or not an IC is joined to a unit is decided at the *end* of the movement phase.
Well, they kind of shoot themselves in the foot here. Yes, you check at the end of the phase, but they can leave (or join) during the phase. It's important to remember that because it could affect the unit's movement. If I move my IC within coherency, the squad can move no further in that movement phase.


3) If you were going to disembark the whole unit, I think you'd have to do it all at once instead of disembarking one guy, moving him, then disembarking the rest. They're still one unit at that point. I'm not sure that's spelled out in the BRB, and I don't have access at the moment, but that's my understanding.
No, the rules for transports do state that you can disembark into separate units. Once the IC and unit are detached, they move normally, and since they are two separate units and no two units move simultaneously, you can move the IC, then move the squad back into coherency.


1 and 2 are true. If 3 is true, then the IC would have to move based on the unit's difficult terrain roll. I've had opponents "saparate" ICs at the beginning of the movement in order to get the extra die for moving through terrain, so they could manage an extra couple inches for a charge, which isn't right. So really this hinges on my assumption #3. Anyone have a BRB to back up or speak against it?

Fourth bullet point of the giant IC white box o' rules (page 48) states:


An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

You check the 2" range at the end of the phase, but you are still allowed to leave during the phase. When the IC moves, it uses its movement (which in your case with your opponents is 3d6), as the unit is not moving at all (fifth bullet point states this).

Without a rule that says an IC can not leave and join a unit in the same turn, this should be legal.

[SeattleDV8]

While it is a legal loophole, I think it is counter to the sprirt of the rules.

That said though the Terminators in your example would not be able to attack, as none of the squad (only the IC's) were in BtB contact.

[somerandomdude]

That said though the Terminators in your example would not be able to attack, as none of the squad (only the IC's) were in BtB contact.

Not necessarily. While the ICs were the only ones in range to get in base contact, the enemy would still have to pile-in, and that means engaging unengaged models wherever possible. So assuming the unit he was assault had more than 2 models, the Terminators could have very easily been in base contact when the combat started.

[Angelofblades]

While it is a legal loophole, I think it is counter to the sprirt of the rules.

That said though the Terminators in your example would not be able to attack, as none of the squad (only the IC's) were in BtB contact.

Ah, but you forget that 5th ed has this wonderful thing called "Defenders React," where models assaulted move 6" to engage their attackers.

[blackarmchair]

Seems legit to me.

The BrB does say ICs can leave a unit by moving out of coherency and it also says to check at the end of the movement phase to see if the IC is part of a unit.

It all seems pretty cut and dry, I think your opponent was just unhappy that you found a cunning solution.

[DarkLink]

While it is a legal loophole, I think it is counter to the sprirt of the rules.


Of course, "spirit of the rules" doesn't mean anything more than "I don't like this, so I think you're cheating but I can't prove it".

[Xas]

Of course, "spirit of the rules" doesn't mean anything more than "I don't like this, so I think you're cheating but I can't prove it".

this forum certainly lacks "like" function :D

+1

[Paintraina]

First of all, brilliant idea.

Second, your idea was right, but be careful. The rules says "in order to join a unit, an IC must move so that he is within 2" coherency of a friendly unit..."

So I think you should always move the terminators first, followed by the IC. I'm not sure if your way is illegal, but I can see it being argued.

[DarkLink]

this forum certainly lacks "like" function :D

+1

There's always your signature;)

[Angelofblades]

First of all, brilliant idea.

Second, your idea was right, but be careful. The rules says "in order to join a unit, an IC must move so that he is within 2" coherency of a friendly unit..."

So I think you should always move the terminators first, followed by the IC. I'm not sure if your way is illegal, but I can see it being argued.

First off, Thank you,

Second, I was wondering about that, does it really matter which model moves first in that instance? Because the IC's movement still put him within 2" coherency of another unit at the end of the movement phase anyways. Regardless of order it was done, as long as the IC ends within 2" it still achieves the same thing doesn't it?

[Paintraina]

I doubt the order matters, but it's enough of a grey area that I can see it ruled against you in a tournament setting. Better safe than sorry.

Most people aren't dicks that would call you on that either.

[Xar]

At the end of the phase, the IC is either in coherency, or he isn't. If he is in coherency at the end of the phase, then he is still part of the unit, and restricted by their movement roll. He can't move away, and then be joined - because coherency is determined at the end of the phase. He must move away, and remain more than 2" away at the end of the Movement phase to have independent movement.

The question of leaving and joining in the same turn is ridiculous, because coherency is determined at the end of the phase, not the timing is which the models are moved.

[Daemonette666]

If I were the defender, I would move my models up so that they were only in base conatct with or 2" of another model in base contact with the independant characters. I would avoid the terminators completely. I would just choose to move up to 6" to contact and get near the ICs only.

[FastEd]

If I were the defender, I would move my models up so that they were only in base conatct with or 2" of another model in base contact with the independant characters. I would avoid the terminators completely. I would just choose to move up to 6" to contact and get near the ICs only.

When defenders react you must engage as many models as possible, this goes for yours and his. You are forced to engage the terminators if you are within range.

[ElCheezus]

Fourth bullet point of the giant IC white box o' rules (page 48) states:



You check the 2" range at the end of the phase, but you are still allowed to leave during the phase. When the IC moves, it uses its movement (which in your case with your opponents is 3d6), as the unit is not moving at all (fifth bullet point states this).

Without a rule that says an IC can not leave and join a unit in the same turn, this should be legal.

Actually, after looking over the BRB, I'm fairly certain this is incorrect, but that's a different post. I'll make a new thread later.

On topic, I think it comes down to the wording in the top paragraph of the second column on page 67 of the BRB. It says that either the IC or the unit can disembark while the others remain onboard, or they can disemark at the same time using different access points. It comes down to your interperetation of those sentences as to whether the unit that chose to "remain onboard" can later change their mind and disembark.

I'm not strongly biased either way, honestly, because I have two ICs as a guard player, and they don't get into transports that often, since they mostly boost blob squads.

Remember, the argument of "nothing says I can't" isn't usually that effective when we talk about a permissive ruleset. My reasoning supporting that the unit that remained can't later disembark is that in all other cases of a unit + IC moving, they have to move at the same time. The exception is bullet 5 on p 48, but that doesn't let the unit move on it's own, it only counts them as stationary for shooting purposes.

[dwsculpts]

In the BRB it does state that at the end of the movement if the IC is within 2 inches it is considered part of the unit,
BUT
on page 67 it states that the IC and the unit may disembark together as one unit
OR
disembark seperately by the IC or the unit remaining on board
OR
disembark seperately at the same time using different access points but the IC must end its movement more than two inches from the unit.
so this tactic is illegal in terms of game play.