Defense vs lash?

[Dellamorte]

I will be the first to admit, as an ork non-weirdboy player, I have little knowledge of psyker powers and even less on the abilities of demons. In a recent tournament, my opponent used two demon prince HQs, and at the beginning of his turns, he always used the power “lash” to keep my troops scattered. Apparently I had no defense, and as long as he made his “psyker roll”, he could measure out anywhere from 2 to 10 inches (depending on the roll) and scatter individuals of one unit around the board where I then had to spend the next turn or two reconsolidating the unit before they could move, shoot, or assault.

From what I’ve read there is nothing that says he can or can’t do that. Does anybody know of any defense against that, either rule or army based?

[Sam]

CSM FAQ says he cannot do that.

[Dellamorte]

CSM FAQ says he cannot do that.

Do you know what page number?

[somerandomdude]

A few things:

1) Lash only has a 24" range (to the unit's original position, that is). If he's targeting units outside of this range, he's breaking the rules.

2) Lash is movement, which means it has to follow all rules for movement (which includes staying in coherency). If he is taking your unit out of coherency, he's breaking the rules.

3) Lash is a shooting attack. While this is a minor point, it should be stated because it sounds like he may be doing this in movement (which leaves him open to run later). If he is using Lash outside of the shooting phase, he's breaking the rules.

Now that that's over with:

1) Lash can only affect non-vehicle units. As Orks, you have several effective units to help you take advantage of this. Trukks and Battlewagons are obvious choices, as are Dreads, Kans, and Buggies. You can get a lot of firepower out of those last two, while Battlewagons/Trukks can deliver large squads into his front line before he can really start to abuse Lash.

2) Lash is a shooting attack. This is here (again) because it's important to realize that if his Daemon Prince can not legally fire a weapon, like when he is locked in combat, then he can not use Lash. Get a Boyz squad to tarpit him, or use Meganobz to beat into him a bit.

3) Daemon Princes are Monstrous Creatures. While this is something to be concerned about (your vehicles are already pretty fragile, so he can rip them apart easily) it's also important to note that he will have a tough time getting cover. As anyone will tell you, there's a big difference from a 4+ to a 5+, and with Rokkit Kans/Kustom Mega-blastas denying his armor saves, you can hit them fairly hard.

4) Daemon Princes only have 4 wounds. Along the same lines of 3, you can just shoot them to death with everything else in the army. Lootas wound on 2+, and if you've got about 30+ of those you're looking at upwards to 90 shots a turn (if you're lucky). Keep in mind that, because of #2, he needs to have line of sight to you, which means you can have line of sight to him.

5) The Chaos book, while capable of fielding a few effective (if overcosted) units, has very few truly "threatening" units. You have the numbers (and point differential) to not really care about their assault units, Plague Marines are annoying but don't really hurt much in return, and Oblits can only hit three things a turn (this is assuming he uses Oblits, which might not be the case judging by your post). Because of this, it should be easy to focus your firepower onto the Daemon Princes without worrying too much about retaliation.

Hopefully some of this helps you. I'm sure others have ideas, and people may disagree with me, but I thought I'd include as many possibilities as I could in the hopes that something would fit in your model range (you won't be able to load up on Trukks, Buggies, Kans, Dreads, Meganobz, AND Lootas, but hopefully you have some of that in your list already).

[somerandomdude]

Do you know what page number?

In the FAQ on GW's website, here:

CSM FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490289a_FAQ_ChaosSpaceMarines_2009.pdf)

[geisthammer]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=600005&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

there you go..

[Dellamorte]

You guys are awesome...
In the names of Gork and Mork... I thank you.

[Maelstorm]

Or...

Use Necrons and a Monolith. Any Necron unit with a single Model within 18" can be brought through the portal and still have it's full movement/firing phase. If desides to Lash and move a unit of Destroyers out of the way, pull them 18" to the Monolith, 8" though it's width and then turbo-boost them 24" across the board (50" total movement) and out of range of the Lash. Or pull them 18" plus the 8" width of the Monolith, move them 12" and shoot 15 strength 6 shots at him from 36". The full with of the board is now your playground.

The more I read about Necrons the more I like their fast movement with the Monolith...

[Da Gargoyle]

Vis a Vis the Necrons, everything has its weakness and I have a cunning plan for the next time I meat, sorry, meet one. It is a similar tactic I would suggest for a unit with the Lash, ( Which is not restricted to Daemon Princes by the way).

The Lash is a shooty weapon that requires line of sight. Use cover, like a flank march, portable building or handy hill to get close, then do a Maximus on him and unleash hell, (Or possibly from Chaos and an Ork's point of view, Heaven). I just hope you don't have to rely on dice scores like mine.

[Tynskel]

You guys are awesome...
In the names of Gork and Mork... I thank you.

or Mork and Gork.

[Dellamorte]

Gork is the brutal but cunnin' one... Mork is the cunnin' but brutal one... in this case we need to be more brutal than cunnin'.

[Terraforcer]

Since whem can lash not move dreds? or is it only the daemons lash that specifys that it can move anything with feet?

[Tynskel]

Since whem can lash not move dreds? or is it only the daemons lash that specifys that it can move anything with feet?

lash rules p88, pick any non-vehicle unit...

[Terraforcer]

Okay then I just got the two mixed up. Cause the deamon lash can make anything with feet move.

[Tynskel]

that's pavane of slaanesh. shorter range too, moves the target less.

basically it is forcing them to dance...

[Daemonette666]

The opponent can only move your troops/walker vehicles so that they are set up in a legal way. They can not be placed in impassable terrain, spread more than 2" apart or moved off the table. No model can be moved more than the 2 to 12" rolled up, and with a range of 24" the psychic ability makes it hard to get all the enemy out of range. I tend to corral the enemy into tight groups so that I can hit them with Havoc Launchers, Flame templates, and pull the enemy out of cover before I assault them.

The biggest weakness with lash is that you need to roll to be able to use it. Against opponents such as Eldar with their farseer/ warlock combos, Tyranids with Synapse creatures, Space marines with their Psychic Hoods, and so on, I find the psychic ability is harder to use and sort of suicide to even attempt to try. Otherwise it gets canceled more often than not, when ever I do successfully use it (psychic hoods).

The Chaos daemon's gift Pavane of Slaanesh is just as bad to use against most enemy because it has less range and can only move the enemy up to 6". You do get more heralds and daemon princes that can use it, but with the rules as they play I can not target a unit to move it 6" more than once a turn. I have to target multiple units. That is is I get lucky with my reserve rolls, and my heralds and daemon princes are not shot up by then.

See if the Orks have a Psyker who can force enemy to add dice to their psychic test, or can force a re-roll of the test.

[Daemonette666]

Damn, just checked FAQs Lash can be put on a unit more than once providing it passed its pinning test. I was checking out the statement on Lash verses walkers which I had thought it could move as well.

Well It means I can move a an enemy unit right up close to my flamers and template weapons like Doom Direns, and go for it, before the inevitable assault. Pity about walkers not being affected, I will have to work out a tactic to combat them. Maybe more Obliterators, a vindicator, or a Defiler.

On a side note. Defilers are great at wiping out Monoliths and Stompas. Use terrain to get cover saves, move up using fleet, and charge right in. I kiledl a Stompa in 2 turns with one of them. It was a teams game, and The Stompa destroyed 2 vindicators who sat directly in front of it. Imagine what 2 or more Defilers flanking in a pincer attack could do to a monolith.