What counts as "infantry?"

[Hellstorm]

The local rules judge in my area has this idea that both Monstrous Creatures and Jump Infantry are counted as infantry for all purposes. He has also convinced everyone that plays that he is right. I do not believe this is the case.

His argument: On page 52 there is a darker section with the title Different Unit Types that says " So far the rules have just dealt with troops that move around on foot - infantry." This means that all unit types so far are infantry, including Monstrous Creatures mentioned on the page before and Jump Infantry mentioned earlier on that page. He also states that he has called Games Workshop for their opinion and they agreed with him. I have yet to call them and see if this is true.

My argument: On page 4-5, there is a section that called Unit Types. The headings for those paragraphs are (and in order): Infantry, Beast and Calvary, Monstrous Creatures, Jump Infantry, and so on. Also, in the darker section mentioned on page 54, it goes on to say "This section covers different unit types, and these not only add new tactical elements to your game, but also more complexity to the rules (emphasis added)." I believe this section means the Unit Types heading on page 51 that carries through to page 55.

So am I blind to the obvious truth or is he finding rules that aren't there?

[BuFFo]

The judge is wrong.

Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures.

Jump Infantry are Jump Infantry.

Now, within these two model types, they are treated LIKE Infantry for certain rule purposes, but they are NOT Infantry.

In his mind, if the model physically has it's feet on the ground it must be Infantry. Why doesn't he include Bikes as Infantry as well?

[Tynskel]

They are different types, because the different types have different rules associated with them.
However, Monsterous Creatures, beasts, calvary, and Jump Infantry, walkers all move like infantry. Any rule that involves 'move like infantry', all of the before mentioned units are subjected to those rules.

The key words is that the unit types 'add complexity'. They are still infantry, but have extra rules associated with them.

Bikes are the only thing that are not 'Infantry'. They have radically different rules for movement. They are more akin to vehicles (except walkers) than they are to Infantry.

[Tynskel]

The judge is wrong.

Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures.

Jump Infantry are Jump Infantry.

Now, within these two model types, they are treated LIKE Infantry for certain rule purposes, but they are NOT Infantry.

In his mind, if the model physically has it's feet on the ground it must be Infantry. Why doesn't he include Bikes as Infantry as well?

actually, the judge is right... because he's the judge. You may disagree with him, but ultimately, the judge's ruling is final. Otherwise, why would you have a judge?

[BuFFo]

actually, the judge is right... because he's the judge. You may disagree with him, but ultimately, the judge's ruling is final. Otherwise, why would you have a judge?

Sorry, being called a Judge doesn't make every decision you do right.

He plays the game wrong, but what is worst, he is infecting other players with the same incorrect assumptions.


The local rules judge in my area has this idea that both Monstrous Creatures and Jump Infantry are counted as infantry for all purposes.

This is wrong. The Judge is wrong.


He has also convinced everyone that plays that he is right. I do not believe this is the case.

This is were the REAL damage is, though.

[Tynskel]

It makes every decision they make at the time of the ruling, correct. It doesn't matter if you disagree. You can debate a judge after/before the game, but not during.

The thing is for 'all purposes' is pretty much correct. I cannot name an instance where all of the previously mentioned categories do not act as infantry. It is like calling infantry fruit. Then Calling monsterous creatures apples, jump infantry oranges, calvary grapes, and beasts kiwis. They are still fruit! They have extra rules, but at the core, they are still infantry.

[steelmage99]

That "judge" is full of feces.

[chromedog]

If you don't agree with him, don't play any events he runs or is in charge of.
If this means finding a new venue or swallowing that pride and joining the other bandwagoneers, so be it.

By the published rules he is wrong. By his own 'house rules' he is still wrong, but he's the one setting the house rules - and the house hates to lose.

[justsam]

on the "judge is wrong" count, i ran my club's installment of last year's 'Ard Boyz, and GW states in various locations that the judge doesn't NEED to get the rules right. if you appeal to his ruling, you abide by it whether RAW back it or not.

that being said, the judge is absolutely full of crap, yes.

[gcsmith]

Ok If what he says is true, carnifex or trygon can come up other trygon holes. since only infantry can come out of them.

Sadly it says INFANTRY come up. and since A carnifex is called monstrous creature not called infanrtry it cant.

But as a judge. his ruling is final for his events.

[Hellstorm]

Normally for an event, i wouldn't fight his ruling but since he is at the local game store all the time and is one of those people who just has to butt in to every game and make sure we play the rules right, it is hard to get into any game without this topic coming up.

I would chose not to participate in any of his events, except that the next closest store is about a two hour drive.

Thank you for your help. Now, how do I convince him that he is wrong?

[Fellend]

Mount monsterous creatures and jump infantry in vehicles maybe?

[Sandman2663]

I would play Space Wolves and mount some TWC in a Crusader...

[somerandomdude]

Well, TWC are Cavalry, and the judge hasn't said anything about them yet. But I agree with Fellend, mount MC and Jumpers in vehicles.

[Tynskel]

well, the vehicle rules explicitly state jump infantry cannot go into vehicles.

[Mr.Pickelz]

does anyone use space wolves against him? if so, how are wolf preists handled? With their Preferred enemy being Infantry, so that all grey hunter(or wolfguard) units that get them, can re-roll on pretty much the Entire army...

[DarkLink]

I'm mildly stunned that two people actually answered "Yes, MCs count as infantry". Did they actually read the rulebook? Ever?

[ElCheezus]

A white horse is not a horse.

Best bet is to find something that refers to infantry that plainly shouldn't apply to the other two. Ovbiously the standard argument of "they are listed as two different types" won't work at this point. I don't have access to the BRB at the moment, and the IG codex won't help, since we have neither MCs or Jump Infantry. . . Transports is a good start. "I can put my Wraithlord in a transport, then?"

[Hellstorm]

does anyone use space wolves against him? if so, how are wolf preists handled? With their Preferred enemy being Infantry, so that all grey hunter(or wolfguard) units that get them, can re-roll on pretty much the Entire army...

well he is the only space wolf player in the area.

thank you for all of the ideas. i will try some of these against him when i can and see if they change his mind. keep them coming so i can see if could get one really crazy one that will for sure change his mind.

[somerandomdude]

Hellstorm, can I ask what circumstances he is counting MCs as infantry?

The rules clearly state that a different unit type follows the rules for it specifically (in the box he quotes, even) unless it would have no effect, then you follow the rules for infantry.

So, at what point is he saying "this can happen because that Wraithlord is infantry"?

Thanks Tynskel for the reminder. The MC suggestion still stands.

Also, Hellstorm, be tactful. Don't spring it on him during a game. Typically, when someone is directly confronted in that manner, they become defensive and dismissive. I suspect that he is looking for exploits or being a jerk (honestly) and it will only strengthen his position against you. He already has the rest of the gaming community with him, he only needs to get them to never believe you, and if you offend him he'll do that.

Rather, if this discussion comes up outside of a game, or in a game with another opponent, that is when I would make that point. It may sound underhanded, and it may upset your opponent, but if he comes by and says something, then immediately embark a monstrous creature in a transport. Your opponent will see how ridiculous it is, and he'll have to either admit that the other guy is wrong, or he will be extremely stubborn. But if you can get someone, ANYONE, on your side, you'll start to change things.

This is all theory. I've done this technique before (playing someone and teaching them something that every is doing wrong), but I've never done it by abusing the mistake.

[Tynskel]

I'm mildly stunned that two people actually answered "Yes, MCs count as infantry". Did they actually read the rulebook? Ever?

They are infantry for the purposes of movement. Just like Jump, Beasts, and Cavalry. All of them have extra rules associated with them, though.

[DarkLink]

Well, yeah, that's what I'm surprised about. They explicitly have extra special rules that differentiate them from regular infantry.

[Archon Charybdis]

Moving like infantry is still a far cry from counting as infantry for all purposes, and as others have pointed out, it opens things up for sorts of abuse and weirdness.

[Culven]

Perhaps we are missing some context here. In what ways is the Judge counting Jump Infantry and Monsterous Creatures as Infantry?

The Unit Type is what defines a model as Infantry, Vehicle, Walker, Cavalry, Jump Infantry, Monsterous Creature, Artillery, or Beasts. Simply having some rules in common doesn't change their defined Unit Type. As others mentioned, sometimes it doesn't matter what their Unit Type is because they are using rules in common with Infantry (such as normal Movement), but again, that doesn't mean that they are Infantry.

Another thing that has been mentioned that I think is worth reiterating: While the rules don't allow Jump Infantry and Monsterous Creatures to count as Infantry, at a Tournament, the Judge's rulings are "official" rules. So, the Judge could choose to make Monsterous Creatures count as Infantry (if they are only Infantry, then the would lose their 2D6 Armour Penetration and Difficult Terrain rules).

My suggestion to illustrate the error of house-ruling that Monsterous Creatures are Infantry would be to have a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon embarked in a Land Raider.

[BuFFo]

Perhaps we are missing some context here. In what ways is the Judge counting Jump Infantry and Monsterous Creatures as Infantry?

The Unit Type is what defines a model as Infantry, Vehicle, Walker, Cavalry, Jump Infantry, Monsterous Creature, Artillery, or Beasts. Simply having some rules in common doesn't change their defined Unit Type. As others mentioned, sometimes it doesn't matter what their Unit Type is because they are using rules in common with Infantry (such as normal Movement), but again, that doesn't mean that they are Infantry.

Another thing that has been mentioned that I think is worth reiterating: While the rules don't allow Jump Infantry and Monsterous Creatures to count as Infantry, at a Tournament, the Judge's rulings are "official" rules. So, the Judge could choose to make Monsterous Creatures count as Infantry (if they are only Infantry, then the would lose their 2D6 Armour Penetration and Difficult Terrain rules).

My suggestion to illustrate the error of house-ruling that Monsterous Creatures are Infantry would be to have a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon embarked in a Land Raider.

The 'Judge is always right' is a fine answer within the context of authority in a tournament, but that does not make his rulings CORRECT.

Such sweeping changes should be put into a FAQ so players can read the rules before the Tournament.

How would you like to be playing a tourney game, when all of a sudden a Judge tells you that Vehicles count as Infantry? All of a sudden your IG opponent is invincible while your anti-tank just bounces off trees.

He changed the entire class of models mid tournament on players, and what is worse, these players, according to the OP, now believe this is how the game is.

Must be nice to be able to stick Scourges in a Raider where the OP plays...

[DrLove42]

Must be nice to be able to stick Scourges in a Raider where the OP plays...

Screw that, i wanna play a game of apoc where i can put 3 Carnifaxes in a venom!

What? They're infantry now right?

[Weafwolf]

well he is the only space wolf player in the area.

thank you for all of the ideas. i will try some of these against him when i can and see if they change his mind. keep them coming so i can see if could get one really crazy one that will for sure change his mind.

Well isn't that interesting? I bet he loves his Wolf Priests, then. He gets preferred enemy against anything with feet! I have to say, when you create and enforce a rule that benefits yourself against every other army in your area, you really shouldn't be judging events. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not a db, but really...

[BuFFo]

Screw that, i wanna play a game of apoc where i can put 3 Carnifaxes in a venom!

What? They're infantry now right?

LOL

You warm my heart :)

[Hellstorm]

Perhaps we are missing some context here. In what ways is the Judge counting Jump Infantry and Monsterous Creatures as Infantry?

it came up in a fight where he used Jaws of the World Wolf to kill jump infantry and he also mention that monstrous creatures also counted as infantry in the rule he quoted. he also mentioned that any ork monstrous creature would get fleet when he declared the waagh!(for apocalypse games) because their "infantry". but now it is just a bad rule that everyone believes to be the truth.

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure JotWW explicitly doesn't work on Jump Infantry, though I'd have to check. Either way, it does explicitly list what unit types it does work on, and because unit type Jump Infantry are not unit type Infantry, JotWW does not work on them.


And since when did orks have any monstrous creatures? Big walkers, sure, but I didn't know about any even in Apoc.



Moral of the story is, don't trust this dude for any rule decisions. Ever. Even if he does bother to actually getting around to reading the rules someday.

[Paintraina]

So Jaws doesn't work on jump infantry. That's explicitly stated.

It does work on MC's though, but they get a +1 to their roll.

As far as Ork Gargantuan Creatures, getting fleet when a Waagh is declared (Squiggoths are the only example I can think of), They only get fleet if they have the Waaagh rule. Gretchin don't have it, and thus, don't fleet. I imagine the same holds true for Squiggoths.

[Hellstorm]

as i don't have the codex in front of me but i believe it says ork infantry only for waagh! oh well like i said he just randomly mentioned it.

[DarkLink]

Just checked the JotWW wording, and it doesn't explicitly state that it does not work on jump infantry. It does, however, explicitly state that it only works on infantry, monstrous creatures, beasts and cavalry and bikes. And since jump infantry is not on that list, it does not affect jump infantry. I see no way anyone with any semblance of competence that has actually read that rule could think that it does.

[Paintraina]

I could be wrong, but I think there was an FAQ thing where it says Jaws doesnt effect jump infantry.

Also remember: When you equip a model with a jumppack it usually says something along the lines of "Change the models type to : Jump Infantry" Which would imply that it is a different type than regular infantry.

[Dyrnwyn]

it came up in a fight where he used Jaws of the World Wolf to kill jump infantry and he also mention that monstrous creatures also counted as infantry in the rule he quoted. he also mentioned that any ork monstrous creature would get fleet when he declared the waagh!(for apocalypse games) because their "infantry". but now it is just a bad rule that everyone believes to be the truth.
JotWW has a specific list of what it affects - and Infantry and Monstrous Creatures are two separate entries on that list which goes to show that they are not the same thing. As far as JotWW goes, it does not affect Jump Infantry, and I also believe that Jetbikes are immune as well.

As for the Squiggoths and Waaagh - unless they have the Waagh special rule, they don't benefit from the Waagh being called.

[SeattleDV8]

SW FAQ
"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf affect Jetbikes? How
about Artillery? (p37)
A. Yes, because ʻJetbikesʼ is a subcategory of the ʻBikeʼ
unit type. As for Artillery, the crew models may be affected,
but the gun models, being vehicles, are not affected."

[ElCheezus]

SW FAQ
"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf affect Jetbikes? How
about Artillery? (p37)
A. Yes, because ʻJetbikesʼ is a subcategory of the ʻBikeʼ
unit type. As for Artillery, the crew models may be affected,
but the gun models, being vehicles, are not affected."

I see this as similar to the difference between BA jump infantry and Tau jump infantry. i.e. Jet Packs work slightly different, but it still clearly says they're still Jump Infantry.

[rle68]

Just checked the JotWW wording, and it doesn't explicitly state that it does not work on jump infantry. It does, however, explicitly state that it only works on infantry, monstrous creatures, beasts and cavalry and bikes. And since jump infantry is not on that list, it does not affect jump infantry. I see no way anyone with any semblance of competence that has actually read that rule could think that it does.

you would be incorrect sir i use this part of the faq specifically adressing the part your saying doenst state it

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf affect Jetbikes? How
about Artillery? (p37)
A. Yes, because ʻJetbikesʼ is a subcategory of the ʻBikeʼ
unit type. As for Artillery, the crew models may be affected,
but the gun models, being vehicles, are not affected

as infantry is a sub heading of jump infantry and the pre establishing set of statements has already established the ruling jump infantry are affected by jotww

and i have clearly read the rules while you have obviously not read the faq

[SeattleDV8]

as infantry is a sub heading of jump infantry and the pre establishing set of statements has already established the ruling jump infantry are affected by jotww

and i have clearly read the rules while you have obviously not read the faq

No,Infantry is a different unit type from Jump Infanty.
The Unit types are:
BRB pg. 4 & 5, Infantry, Beasts & Cavalry, MC, Jump Infantry, Artillery, Bikes & Jetbikes and Vehicles.

[Dyrnwyn]

SW FAQ
"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf affect Jetbikes? How
about Artillery? (p37)
A. Yes, because ʻJetbikesʼ is a subcategory of the ʻBikeʼ
unit type. As for Artillery, the crew models may be affected,
but the gun models, being vehicles, are not affected."
Ah - I recalled there was an FAQ entry on the subject but couldn't remember which way it went. That answers that then. Jetbikes are affected, Jump Infantry are not.



No,Infantry is a different unit type from Jump Infanty.
The Unit types are:
BRB pg. 4 & 5, Infantry, Beasts & Cavalry, MC, Jump Infantry, Artillery, Bikes & Jetbikes and Vehicles.
Technically, that'd be 'Jump & Jet Infantry,' since it seems variations under a heading are included in the main heading.

[rle68]

No,Infantry is a different unit type from Jump Infanty.
The Unit types are:
BRB pg. 4 & 5, Infantry, Beasts & Cavalry, MC, Jump Infantry, Artillery, Bikes & Jetbikes and Vehicles.

again i say based on the faq which says jet bikes are a sub heading of bikes the same rules apply to jump infantry they are infantry

it doesnt matter to me i dont care either way i dont cast the spell it isnt that effective (yes i have taken out 3 fexs with it but that was initial release not ever after )

[somerandomdude]

How are they a subset? Because they have the word "infantry" in the name?

There's nothing else that could suggest that they were, since unlike Bikes/Jetbikes, they don't even appear on the same page, or have a phrase like "Jump infantry are the same as Infantry, with the following exceptions."

That, my friends, is why Jetbikes are affected by JotWW.

[wolvesofruss]

:) Hello all I am the rules "db" you are all talking about. Hellstorm has the story of how this started a little mixed up. A tau player and I where talking about how Over powered Jaws is against low Initiative Army's like Orks, Necrons, Tau.

Then we disagreed about it hurting jump infantry, Infantry is in there name was my thought and that it is silly to me as Jet bikes are harmed and they never touch the ground, and Jump Infantry Take bounding leaps across the table and stop after every jump and close to close combat on foot. The store owner was asked his opinion and he put a house rule into place that jump infantry got a re-roll on the initiative test but where still yummy if they failed and Jet-bikes are not hurt.

I e-mailed the rules boys about this and was sent a phone number for a rules help line (the number is 18003944263). I called it and was told that yes Jaws hurts Jump Infantry and I asked how, and was pointed by GW to the Grey box on page 52. I gave the number to the Tau player and he called them as well and they gave him the same answer they gave me, he called them again and others in the store did as well. We all got the same answer from GW, That yes it swallows them too. The disagreement came to the point of pure silliness (in my opinion) on tau players side buy him saying and I quote ," Games work shop is wrong.". Its there game they are not wrong. I only stand by what I was told by GW. Thank you all for you thoughts on this, if you were with or against me.

On a side note I do wish that GW would put it in the Space Wolves FAQ with there official ruling with this as a yes or no on jump Infantry. Once again thanks for hearing my side.

[rle68]

:) Hello all I am the rules "db" you are all talking about. Hellstorm has the story of how this started a little mixed up. A tau player and I where talking about how Over powered Jaws is against low Initiative Army's like Orks, Necrons, Tau.

Then we disagreed about it hurting jump infantry, Infantry is in there name was my thought and that it is silly to me as Jet bikes are harmed and they never touch the ground, and Jump Infantry Take bounding leaps across the table and stop after every jump and close to close combat on foot. The store owner was asked his opinion and he put a house rule into place that jump infantry got a re-roll on the initiative test but where still yummy if they failed and Jet-bikes are not hurt.

I e-mailed the rules boys about this and was sent a phone number for a rules help line (the number is 18003944263). I called it and was told that yes Jaws hurts Jump Infantry and I asked how, and was pointed by GW to the Grey box on page 52. I gave the number to the Tau player and he called them as well and they gave him the same answer they gave me, he called them again and others in the store did as well. We all got the same answer from GW, That yes it swallows them too. The disagreement came to the point of pure silliness (in my opinion) on tau players side buy him saying and I quote ," Games work shop is wrong.". Its there game they are not wrong. I only stand by what I was told by GW. Thank you all for you thoughts on this, if you were with or against me.

On a side note I do wish that GW would put it in the Space Wolves FAQ with there official ruling with this as a yes or no on jump Infantry. Once again thanks for hearing my side.

There you go nuff said

[somerandomdude]

You enjoy going against the group, don't you rle? Not saying there's anything bad with that, I've done it enough in the past.

You can say "nuff said" but the only reason I'll accept it is because the store owner got involved and declared how things work in his store. The truth is that, while it is GW's game, they can make mistakes, and more importantly if that were the correct ruling there should be a clarification with the proper wording. This way, the game can be played correctly in all areas of the world, and not just in the stores that called GW.

For the record, every grey box in the rulebook is nothing but helpful hints and tips (speed rolling, moving blast markers, etc). This is just a reminder that the section dedicated to different unit types talked about non-infantry units. White boxes found throughout the rulebook have rules in them (dedicated transports, smoke launchers, etc.). I will have to simply point you to pages 4 and 5 of the rulebook, where it says at the top:


In order to make it easier to learn the basic rules, the first few sections of the book, covering Movement, Shooting, Assault and Morale are written with respect to infantry units, because these are by far the most common unit type in the game. The other types of units are also defined here and then explained in detail later in specific sections that cover their unique rules. The unit types in Warhammer 40,000 are as follows:

It then goes on to list Infantry, Beasts and Cavalry, Monstrous Creatures, Jump Infantry, Artillery, Bikes and Jetbikes, and Vehicles, in that order. Bikes and Jetbikes are the same unit type (admittedly they should have list both in JotWW to avoid confusion, or split them into seperate ones) but Infantry and Jump Infantry are clearly separate unit types.

When it comes down to it, this has been house ruled, which means if Hellstorm can't convince them otherwise he should follow it or stop playing with them. Outside influences (whether the BoLS forum or GW) can't come in and say they're playing it wrong and expect to make a difference.

I disagree with your ruling, but I will defend to the death your right to have it. :D

[SeattleDV8]

Heh, that ruling from GW is..odd.
The info in the grey box really doesn't tell me that infantry is the same as jump infantry, quite the opposite.

Oh well and as somerandomdude said if it's your house rule I have nothing against that.
Just be aware when playing in tourneys and elsewhere people will probably disagree.