DE Kaballite units are boss

[thecactusman17]

So when we don't have rum, we turn to Vodka. The superior, more evil drink to Rum. Some people point out that Rum was drank by pirates, and I say that if Johhny Depp can drink it and be a good guy then I'll be damned if I can.

The DE fluff and units are just that good. I mean really, none of the over-the-top craziness of Blood Angels, and even a humorous nod to the "Eldrad is a Dick" meme in more than a few lore pieces (obviously substituting Vect for Eldrad). So here I am to discuss the awesomness of the Kabals. Not the Wyches, or the Haemonculai covens, just the standard Kabals.

The first and most important question, of course, is "what is a Kabalite unit?"

In addition to the obvious (Kabalite Wariors/Trueborn), there are a few clues throughout the codex. Kabals are more like organized militias in the 5th edition DE codex, so looking for clearly organized shooting units is a god example. And of course, Archons and special character Archons are leaders of their respective Kabals. Finally, Kabals rely on muscle. So while, they aren't the lithe dancers of the Wyches or the horrendous mutants of the Haemonculai, Kabals tend to favor signs of outward strength and toughness.

Here is my list of "Kabalite" units:

Adrusaebel Vect
Lady Maliyce
Duke Sliscus
Archon
Archon's Retinue
Raiders
Ravagers
Venoms
Trueborn
Warriors


Vect is obviously the very first thing that springs to mind when considering the overall design of a Kabal. Or at least, the concept of the vastly impressive leader of the dark eldar. He knows everythign before and after the game starts. He is impossibly skilled and wields the most dangerous wargear known to man and dark eldar alike. he laughs off blows that would kill a lesser being. And of course, he is ALWAYS in control of the situation. 240 points would be a lot were it not for that ridiculous power to seize the initiative on a 4+. Abuse the hell out of this rule. You will not believe how severely it can affect your opponent, knowing that there is a 50/50 chance that they will suddenly be under the gun on the first turn. Force your opponent to overestimate your abilities and it can be just as useful as their underestimating them. We get to the weaponry and Vect is just as impressive--a 2+ invulnerable save, I8, rerolls to hit anything and rerolls to wound against Eldar units, the most accurate small blast in the game with a max deviation of 4 inches, and said balst is both AP3 and restores previously lost wounds. He even comes with his own (vastly overpriced) transport.

The Dais, unfortunately, is the opposite of Vect. Armor 13 is pretty awesome, but it boasts none of the survivability of a standard Raider, Ravager, or even Venom. The Dais, you see, has none of the shields that protect its lesser cousins from return firepower (these being Nightshields and Flickerfields, which protect less costly units with greater firepower admirably. Also, it does not have the Aerial Assault special rules to let it use it's monstrous firepower on the move. So a fast moving Dais is at best an AV13 Predator with a flat-out save.

Malys is a very impressive special rule wrapped around an effective model in is own right. Deployment and maneuver are key to the dark eldar, and like Vect she affects your game before either side moves an inch. Suddenly, that powerful flank attack vanishes, leaving your opponent wildly out of place. She is the exact opposite of Vect, in that where Vect is a character that delights in going second and reacting to opponents, Malys is a character that does the same by going first. She's also the smartest way to include a Djinn blade in your army--all the best methods for two attacks, with the least devastating downside. However, there are better close combat units, and they can even manage a shot or two. Malyce should be bought for her deployment rule, but she won't be a slouch if used correctly later on.

Sliscus just hammers the idea home: Dark Aldar Archons are at their best when deploying units. Seriously, just look at this crazy badass: options when rolling combat drugs, option to deploy everything in the army by deepstrike, 3+ poisoned weapons, armor and invul to soak up wounds. Sliscus is the bridge between Vect and the rest of the eldar, a character who bumps up everyone a little and turns good units into incredible units. Sliscus himself is a little less impressive in his statline but makes up for it with a phenomenal selection of wargear--this guy can do just about anything on the battlefield, including shooting and assaulting mechanized infantry. The problem (and it's not much of one) is that he's a sort of locked role in your army. He buffs a bunch of units, then you hope he survives until something comes within striking distance. Where Malyce and Vect can really mess with your opponent's head at the beginning of the game, Sliscus is an open book who does a bunch of very impressive tricks out in the open.

"Bog Standard" Archons are a testament to game design, and perhaps best call back to the powerful Daemon/Witch Hunter "design a ridiculous hero" builds of 3rd edition. Less than a hundred points buys you a statline that the most powerful Space Marines find enviable, and weaponry and gear to make it work. Unlike the named characters though, you get no special rules past those of the normal DE. Even so, you are working with a model that can bring down whole units on its own. Utterly destroying a carnifex brood single handedly, for example, is a wondrous thing.

Archon Retinues are cool ideas with poor rules. Bluntly, everything is done better with other units. the lohamea, for example, can only affect 2 different weapons in the unit (splinter pistols and shardcarbines), while the roles of Sslyth are better handled by other high-toughness units like grotesques, wracks, and Haemonuculai. if you like the archon's Court, leave the points open for the wondrously ridiculous beastmasters.

Tune in next time for more semi-drunken ramblings!

[thecactusman17]

Let's talk vehicles, and vehicle upgrades!

Dark Eldar have, after Tyranids, the smallest number of vehicle platforms so far in 5th edition, which is somewhat odd considering the mechanized nature of the game. But what a collection! There is only ONE bad option in the book now, especially after the January FAQ updates.

The Dais is still crap. Now whiney people who couldn't see it before are forced to acknowledge my above post: no survivability. AV13 (hell, relying on AV alone PERIOD) will do nothing to make this thing stay on the board longer unless your opponent simply hates the idea of taking 2d6 penetration weapons or S8+ weapons. Still open topped. Still can be engaged at full range. Not even an invul save 1/3 of the time. Oh, and it can't move more than 6" if it wants to fire more than one of those Dark Lances it has. And you are forced to shove a 9-model unit inside. Forced to.

If transports are your thing, then the Raider is just simply where it's at. Cheap, reliable, comes with a great weapon option, and can be given relatively inexpensive options to make it last FOREVER with a bit of care. Nightshields are the ridiculous trick in this codex and Raiders live and die by them, especially in a shooting heavy Kabal list. Flickerfields are also a decent option, though not as reliable for obvious reasons with their 5+ invul save. However, nothing will make you laugh harder than an opponent swinging wildly at your Raider in close combat only to have it shrug off that one critical strike, leaving them exposed for a barrage of return fire. The remaining options trend from "OK" down to "nearly useless," especially now that destroyed tank-shocking vehicles kill their passengers. One potentially useful option is tormentor grenades, which harm leadership in their immediate area for a 12th the cost of the vehicle they are mounted to.

Venoms are a decent transport, though they lack the versatility of a Raider. The primary trouble with a Venom is that it's actually slightly more expensive than a Raider, requiring a second splinter cannon and nightshields to maintain it's primary usefulness as an infantry killing powerhouse. 12 shots a turn, moving at 12 inches, delivering cargo which can also do immense damage in shooting or close combat. But you need that nightshield or your Venom is simply going to be shot down by another unit in the backfield firing autocannons or even heavy bolters.

Ravagers aren't the best heavy support in the codex, but they certainly aren't bad by any stretch. 3 Dark Lances a turn can make even the most leafy of blowers quiver. Again, NIGHTSHIELDS are where it's at with these things, giving you that crucial few inches of wiggle room that reduces or eliminates return fire. Be warned though--against massed hordes, Ravagers incorrectly equipped will tend to be useful only as mobile cover for your anti-infntry units.

[MaltonNecromancer]

For my money, Sliscus is the best HQ choice, bar none, purely for the unit buffs.

Sliscus deployed in a 20 strong Kabalite unit with 2 Splinter Cannons = pure anti-infantry win. 18" threat range of 48 shots that hit and wound on 3+? Sign me up.

Alternatively, Sliscus deployed in a 9 strong Kabalite Trueborn unit with Shardcarbines, 2 Splinter Cannons mounted in a Raider with Splinter racks = super fast anti-infantry win. 30" threat bubble of 29 shots that hit on a 3+ with a reroll, wounds on a 3+? Brilliant stuff.

Plus your Wyches are more likely to get a better Combat Drugs roll into the bargain.

[thecactusman17]

Splinter racks don't affect Shardcarbines or Splinter cannons, only splinter rifles and pistols. Unfortunately.

None more tonight, but thanks for the input!

[gcsmith]

actually with shard carbines in raider threat range is 24" as u cant move 12 and fire from the vehicle.

[thecactusman17]

Quite true GCsmith! As I learned to my chagrin after a few games. Forgive me, my previous army was a bit more traditional (Third edition, AND I LOVE IT SO!) and so I will admit to having missed the whole section on moving and shooting more than 6" in anything at all, much less a fast skimmer.

Where were we? Oh, yes...


Let's start with the Warriors. For a mechanized unit, you can hardly make a more impressive choice for troops. Easy assault lance weapons, riidculous firepower which can be supplemented by a Splainter Cannon or two. And with good 5th edition cover, even the generally unwieldy 20-model shooting unit (I love being forced to avoid "man," excellent job on the female models) can be fairly useful. The obvious downside is leadership, but if leadership is of no concern to you then you will find these impressive fellows to range from fiarly cheap to an impressive bargain. Seriously, a squad that can down a carnifex or Tervigon in a single round of shooting is pretty ******* impressive. Of course, as with all splinter weapon weilding units, the magic goes away a little when your opponent is packing well over a hundred S3 models. And awkwardly these gunline-centric units can't even be trusted with your basic photon grenade (but then again, who needs preparation when you can be rebuilt by a Haemonculai should you screw things up?). So charging that 10-20 model guardsmen squad in cover is just asking for trouble.

Trueborn....

Oh my God...

Where does one begin with these evil, evil *******s? Trueborn continue the recent GW trend of placing impossibly powerful elite units in the section they belong. A 10-model unit with the firepower an an entire force org slot is a pretty impressive feat on its own, the fact that you can manage one for less than 300 points is just incredibly jarring. Blasters, plinter cannons, and shardcarbines combine to make a fast-moving death unit equally at home killing heavy armor squadrons and marines alike. A fully decked unit with 4 blasters, 2 splinter cannons, and 4 shardcarbines puts out a fantastical 28 shots a turn, four of which will instant-death most infantry and the rest of which will simply kill it anyway. If there is an "leafblower" list that the DE will eventually lay claim to, expect it to feature these fine upstanding Commorites in abundance. Add in two great transport options and the only problem most players will have is figuring out where they can find more special weapons. In addition, Trueborn have a constant 42 inch threat bubble thanks to those marvelous splinter cannons never losing that 36 inch range in addition to their movement. Assualt 4 36" weapons. If this is what Grey Knights get to look forward to, then expect the next few 'Ard Boys tournaments to be in pretty crazy events.

[jorz192]

Venoms are a decent transport, though they lack the versatility of a Raider. The primary trouble with a Venom is that it's actually slightly more expensive than a Raider, requiring a second splinter cannon and nightshields to maintain it's primary usefulness as an infantry killing powerhouse. 12 shots a turn, moving at 12 inches, delivering cargo which can also do immense damage in shooting or close combat. But you need that nightshield or your Venom is simply going to be shot down by another unit in the backfield firing autocannons or even heavy bolters.

A venom with the extra splinter cannon, night shields, and flickerfields is 75 points.
A raider with nightshields and flickerfields is 80.
The venom comes already with the flickerfield upgrade

[thecactusman17]

I don't see flickerfields as necessary to a vehicle with such long range firepower as a dark lance. And if you desire to get up close, your cover save against 99% of incoming fire is going to be 4+ anyway due to "flat out". However, I WILL accept FFs as being an excellent defense against assault units and attempts to ram (assuming you fail your skimmer save, of course).

--edit: Just to make it clear, I think flickerfields are a great option in many unit builds and I'm not trying to dissuade people against them. But nightshields are so integral to keeping most vehicles in this codex alive that the mearest thought that you wouldn't take them seems ludicrous to me. We are talking about a weapon that makes meltaguns get within 3 inches to gain that second D6 (not that they'll generally need it) and more importantly, rapid fire bolters need to get within 6" to bring your skimmer down. This is NOT an easy proposition for many armies. A 5+ invulnerable save is, by comparison, an only rarely used option.

TL;DR: Nightshields are useful aginst everything, flickerfields only work 1/3rd of the time. At 10 points per upgrade, most playres will know which is the better bargain.

[gcsmith]

Actually melta guns stil get extra dice in 6" just they cant hit u out of 6". Melta range for a melta gun is 6 inches, just 6 inches, nothing about nightfields change that, and with the build ive got for my DE army, i just take flickers.
I need to get close to blow tanks and flickerfields allow me to do that easier, obv i will be willing to change that if playtesting tells me otherwise.

[Caldera02]

I disagree. Nightshields brings a meltagun down to 6in, therefore making it's melta range half of that. The only thing nightshields has a caveat for is you can't force a weapons range below 6in. This does not say melta range. The weapon's range and it's melta range are seperate.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

It may bring the melta gun's effective range down to six inches, but it does not affect its melta ability to penetrate at close range. It will still use an additional dice within 6", because nightshields would not affect the range of a weapon within 6" of it at all. You can spin it however you like, but that is an optimistic interpretation at best...

I will be playing Guard at some point in the future - what do people think of literally having three elite squads of Trueborn, leaving out the Incubi squad who usually accompany the Archon? The troops choice would be Wyches who will WWP in, the Trueborn in Raiders, two Ravagers and either a Talos or VoidRaven Bomber (proxy model!!). Reavers for Bladevaning heavy weapons teams, units of six and three, or perhaps one unit of nine, 10 Scourges and 10 Hellions maybe? Duke Sliscus? or Lelith to carve through units?

[somerandomdude]

"[Night Shields] has the effect of reducing the range of the weapons of enemy units wishing to fire at the vehicle by 6"... The extra distance is also counted for working out if the vehicle is in rapid fire range, half range for a melta shot, and so on."

[Note: Italicized phrase is an errata.]

Night Shields reduce the range of weapons. If you fire with a meltagun, the meltagun's range is only 6". Half of 6" is 3".

Also, it specifies later that it affects half range for melta shots. If it didn't affect it, they wouldn't have that phrase in there.

I will admit that this was an UGLY copy-and-paste job from the previous codex, where Night Shields ADDED to the range that was measured. This codex makes reference to reduced range as well as "extra distance." However, with this range the opponent can at least get a melta shot off, instead of the old codex.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Hmmm...I concede I was mistaken here...then that's not bad at all. Of course, it is of little consequence really, as pretty much everything can munch through the flimsy armour of the Raider/Ravager, and seeing as most guns have a pretty decent range on them, you're gonna have to be a fair way away for Nightshields to have any effect. Perhaps that is the best tactic for Ravagers. This is irritating of course, because you do end up thinking 'Why bother putting this bloody model together if it's going to sit at the back of my forces, as far away from the enemy as possible? I think I'm gonna cram my Raiders full of Trueborn, max out on Dark light weapons. Three Dark Lances and Four Blasters coming from a single Raider? That's at least one vehicle going down, if the Raider then bites it, so what? Wow, I'm off to write another army list...

[thecactusman17]

The reason why is mobility. The fact that Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms can move back out of threat range every turn means that you force your opponent to begin moving towards you, and you'll want the ability to reposition yourself behind cover. Trueborn with heavy weapons are at a disadvantage here because they have to wait a full turn to fire them if the Raider moves at all.

Also, there's the simple fact that this radically reduces the chance of small arms fire being able to realistically harm your transports. So that squad of space marines is NOT going to get to shoot back 24 inches with bolters, and will have to stay in place as close combat units approach from the flank...

Unzuul, Reavers with Caltrops are a GREAT way to deal with heavy weapons teams. Just be aware that if those teams are in close proximity to other guard units, you may end up getting charged and handily defeated in CC.

I'm not completely certain yet what the optimal build for Trueborn is. They pack a wallop, but they also tend to demand a strong degree of precision because they won't generally get more than one chance at accomplishing their mission. In your list, I'd wait for the Wyches to really be in the thick of things before committing my trueborn to their own attack. Otherwise, I see them very quickly falling to massed heavy bolter and autocannon fire. The second that transport goes down, their ability to evade fire goes with it and they are sitting ducks for anything in threat range, which will usually be more than your own 18" on those blasters.

[synack]

"[Night Shields] has the effect of reducing the range of the weapons of enemy units wishing to fire at the vehicle by 6"... The extra distance is also counted for working out if the vehicle is in rapid fire range, half range for a melta shot, and so on."

[Note: Italicized phrase is an errata.]

Night Shields reduce the range of weapons. If you fire with a meltagun, the meltagun's range is only 6". Half of 6" is 3".

Also, it specifies later that it affects half range for melta shots. If it didn't affect it, they wouldn't have that phrase in there.

I will admit that this was an UGLY copy-and-paste job from the previous codex, where Night Shields ADDED to the range that was measured. This codex makes reference to reduced range as well as "extra distance." However, with this range the opponent can at least get a melta shot off, instead of the old codex.

You kinda forgot the part when it says to a minimun of 6" in the DE codex. Since the extra d6 is worked out from 6" it doesn't get reduced. I also don't know why you are halving things, since night shields simply reduces the range by 6", it doesn't halve the range. Yes reduce 12" by 6" is 6", which is half, by you can't apply half to a 24" or 36" range gun. So you're logic of halving the 6" melta range is completely and utterly flawed.

So Ranges for guns shooting at a vehicle with Night shields

MultiMelta: 18" (6" +d6 pen) - Both max range and melta ranged reduced by 6".
Melta: 6" (6" +d6) - Only max range reduced by 6, since melta range is already 6".
Inferno Pistol: 6" (3" +d6) - Nothing reduced since both ranges are 6" or under.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

You kinda forgot the part when it says to a minimun of 6" in the DE codex. Since the extra d6 is worked out from 6" it doesn't get reduced. I also don't know why you are halving things, since night shields simply reduces the range by 6", it doesn't halve the range. Yes reduce 12" by 6" is 6", which is half, by you can't apply half to a 24" or 36" range gun. So you're logic of halving the 6" melta range is completely and utterly flawed.

So Ranges for guns shooting at a vehicle with Night shields

MultiMelta: 18" (6" +d6 pen) - Both max range and melta ranged reduced by 6".
Melta: 6" (6" +d6) - Only max range reduced by 6, since melta range is already 6".
Inferno Pistol: 6" (3" +d6) - Nothing reduced since both ranges are 6" or under.

It's not applying it as a half. That is part of the Melta rules in the main rule book for the game. Check them up, then look at this from the point of view of:

Total Range - 6" / 2 = Possible Melta Range.

Meltagun: 12" - 6" = 6". Melta effect at half range = 6" / 2 = 3"
Multimelta: 24" - 6" = 18". Melta effect at half range = 18" / 2 = 9"
Inferno Pistol No range reduction due to 6" Range. Melta effect at half range = 6" / 2 = 3"

The rules for the Night Shield don't affect the Melta rules directly. Melta can only happen at upto half range for a gun, which needs to take into account the modified range from the night shields.

It essentially means that, unless I'm forgetting something, an Inferno Pistol is better than a Meltagun against Dark Eldar. MultiMelta's are still boss on Attack Bikes and Land Speeders though, seen as they still have longer melta ranges.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

The reason why is mobility. The fact that Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms can move back out of threat range every turn means that you force your opponent to begin moving towards you, and you'll want the ability to reposition yourself behind cover. Trueborn with heavy weapons are at a disadvantage here because they have to wait a full turn to fire them if the Raider moves at all.


Wait, what if the Raiders deep strike in, using the Duke Sliscus rules? Does deep striking count as moving? You could really ensure you took out those Land Raiders/Leman Russ etc etc with a close in Deep strike gambit. Ok, so your raider may not survive, in which case your Trueborn will lose a transport and maybe some models, but that's worse case scenario. If the thing wrecks, then it's something to hide behind, or if there are opponents in charge range, charge right in! If you attach an Archon with Web Way Portal, you get to deploy that too, meaning reinforcements on the way. If the Raider survives, you can stick around to take out further targets or turbo boost away towards cover. Throw in Aethersails and you're half a mile away from any small arms fire...

[somerandomdude]

You kinda forgot the part when it says to a minimun of 6" in the DE codex. Since the extra d6 is worked out from 6" it doesn't get reduced. I also don't know why you are halving things, since night shields simply reduces the range by 6", it doesn't halve the range. Yes reduce 12" by 6" is 6", which is half, by you can't apply half to a 24" or 36" range gun. So you're logic of halving the 6" melta range is completely and utterly flawed.

So Ranges for guns shooting at a vehicle with Night shields

MultiMelta: 18" (6" +d6 pen) - Both max range and melta ranged reduced by 6".
Melta: 6" (6" +d6) - Only max range reduced by 6, since melta range is already 6".
Inferno Pistol: 6" (3" +d6) - Nothing reduced since both ranges are 6" or under.

I didn't "kinda forgot", I chose not to post it because it had nothing to do with the discussion.

I mentioned half range because that's how you determine the "melta range" (a made up term for simplicity, but not a real thing).

Weapons do not have a "melta range" with a constant numerical value. There is simply an extra rule with melta weapons that, if you are at half range or less you get an extra d6.

So, vs. Night Shields, what is the range of a meltagun? 6". So, at what range do you need to be to get an extra d6? 3".

Also note that it does effect half range for melta weapons, as I originally posted. It also affects rapid fire, which is a flat 12" no matter what weapon is doing it, but is reduced to 6" by the Night Shields.

The key thing to realize here is the part you accused me of forgetting specifies that it has "no affect against... weapons with a maximum range of 6" or less." It doesn't even say minimum of 6" like you said, so if a weapon was 9" range (hypothetically) it would be reduced to 3".

Precise wording is... precise.

[somerandomdude]

It essentially means that, unless I'm forgetting something, an Inferno Pistol is better than a Meltagun against Dark Eldar.

Not really. They'd have the same effect against vehicles, and metlaguns would have better range against infantry (and the +1 attack from the pistol wouldn't have much of an effect).

However, it's not really necessary anyway. vs. AV10 you'd have a 66% penetration chance per hit, with + 2 to the result, and your glances would have no negative modifiers (-2 glance, +1 AP1, +1 open-topped). Every little bit can count I supposed, but getting within half range for meltaguns wouldn't be necessary all the time.