Thoughts on Death Co.

[house_cawdor]

As much as I don't want to be a 3+ Armor save guy, I want an enraged army of crazed killers.

Has anyone used Death Co.? I want a whole army of them. No regular assault marines period.

I prefer Boltguns mounted in rhinos, yes all cc weapons are nice, but Bolters are more versatle.

How do you guys like these guys though?

[Dezmo1218]

They can go toe-to-toe with Berzerkers just fine in my experience, and I have had several squads of them win close combats when they were the ones charged. The automatic FNP, WS5 and multiple attacks really stands out.

If you're playing to table your opponent period, I don't see any reason not to take a list full of Death Co. However, unless you're using Rhinos/Dedicated Transports (Land Raider Crusaders are fun to stick 15 DC/Chaplain into) to keep them under what little control you have, you may not like what happens when they go ape and start running across the board chasing a skimmer that's kiting them around in front of a gun line.

I have fiddled with the idea of a drop pod full of Bolter Death Co, with a power sword or two mixed in, just to have a hardy anti-infantry punch first round that can sometimes survive a counter-charge.

I've run full DC lists before, and they're fun to watch, because you relinquish almost all of your control. It can be a stressful game for the enemy to play, that's for sure.

[Alrik_40000]

One of my lists has a 5 man squad of DC in a razorback with a Reclusiarch (to reroll hits & wounds.) I equipped them with 4 power weapons and a Thunder Hammer. That's basically my hammer unit. I've never run an army full of them before. It's a goofy idea I've played around with occasionally.

If you're running them with boltguns in vehicles, and not a lot of extra upgrades, they aren't too costly. I tried using a squad with jump packs, power weapons, etc. That gets way too expensive for a jump-type army. You'll need to have something more for anti-tank though, since all they can get are infernus pistols and power fists/ thunder hammers. Relentless boltguns is a cool idea though!

Remeber they have the Rage USR. They have to move toward the closest visible enemy in the Movement phase, and have to consolidate towards the closest enemy after an assault. As long as you're willing to either maneuver to block line-of-sight to enemies so they can embark back into their transports, or just plain let them run wild, you should be OK to go. I really wouldn't take something like that to a tournament and expect to win , but it would be a blast to play, I think!

[Sandman2663]

I love them.

I run 15 DC -5 PW/Bp, 2 PF/Bolter, 8 Bolter with a Chaplain -PF in a Crusader.

My experience so far, they have wiped out 60 Boyz with Nobz and Warboss in combined assault. Lost 2 DC.
They have wiped out 2 units of 8 Genestealers, 2 units of 20 Termigaunts and a Trygon in a combined assault. Lost 3 DC.

Firing the Relentless Bolters and then rerolling Hits and Wounds in CC with 3+FNP is simply sick.
They usually finish what they hit the first round but if you can combine assault them, the key here, it will be worth the board position you obtain after CC.

Granted it is like 700+ pts but worth every penny!

[Dezmo1218]

And remember that you're of course obligated to take Astorath, which sinks 220 points (I believe) into your army list right there. Might as well take a jump packed DC bodyguard with him, otherwise he'll go down fast.

The first week the Codex came out, I proxied a 30-man, jump packed DC squad all with power fists just to see what it could do. The other troop choice was a DC dread, and I think I took DC Tycho as my HQ. I also gave the DC squad Lemartes for extra fun. Quite a funny game, as I was multi-charging and annihilating everything I touched with such a large group of models.

Ended up losing due to Rage, as he limped around and was able to kite the herd to death to the last man.

If you're in a silly mood, this is also funny to think of:

30x DC with Jump Packs, 2x Thunder Hammers each
600+450+1800 = 2850 pts for one troop choice. 8)

[addamsfamily36]

They have wiped out 2 units of 8 Genestealers, 2 units of 20 Termigaunts and a Trygon in a combined assault. Lost 3 DC.

How did 16 genestealers fail to rend more than 3 into tiny pieces of flesh?!!!

[DarkLink]

Well, there's this funny thing called variability...:p

[addamsfamily36]

Well, there's this funny thing called variability...

Oh, i assure you, with my dice rolling i know all about variability. :D

"addamsfamily rolls 30 dice........2 4's 3 5's and a 6....all the rest ones and two's......i cried."

But with what, 48 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's killing on 6's thats like what and average of 5.3? and thats just one unit. either that tyranid player roles worse than me, or there was some fantastic saving going on.

[mstingray]

I usually run 8 with a chaplain and 2 power swords, on the charge (from a stormraven) they can make a mince out of pretty most all units re-rolling to hit and wound!! I would suggest using some type of transport for them because the opponent can force them into combat with a worthless unit away from their most expensive units.

[somerandomdude]

How did 16 genestealers fail to rend more than 3 into tiny pieces of flesh?!!!

Hmm...

32 attacks at 3 to wound, 6 to rend would be 3.56 rends. This is without considering talons and poison (if they are being used), which would bring it a little over 6. We're also assuming all of the genestealers were alive, and not killed by a few bolter shots.

But then again, when was the last time you got exactly average? Also, if his Reclusiarch ended up in base with a couple of those Genestealers, that could've soaked a few rends.

They might seem powerful, but without the charge (and with a round of shooting before) they won't do as much damage as you hope.

[addamsfamily36]

I thought the Nids charged the death company. As they hit multiple units, which is hard enough to do to two untis with a normal unit of marines, with a rage unit i think its almost impossible.

that aside ( i thought the nids charged,) and that would be 48 attacks, hitting on 3's so thats a 4 in 6 chance of hitting. so 32 hits (unless you meant this, you put attacks so it may just be confusion on my end).

then its a 1 in 6 chance of a 6 so i make that 5.33 (but yeh its been a LONG time since i did any maths regarding averages as stats).

anyways so not de-rail the topic with purely unrelated posts by me, heres how i run them.

Deepstrike with lemartes
7-8 death company
3-4 power weapons
thats it

risky i know, had 50/50 success so far. two times they worked wonders. other two times they scattered and died (rolled maximum scatter in the most awful direction both times):mad: still won, even after losing a close to 500 point unit :D

[bloodangel 83]

my DC is a 10 man squad w/ Lemartes, bolt pistols, bolt guns and chainswords and a inferus pistol on one man. they got into assualt w/ 2 20 man genestealers, lost the squad but the took 1 1/2 squad of stealers w/ them on that go and then the last time they died inside the rhino on turn 1. My DC is about 215 pts w/o rhino. Good luck on a full list of DC. Charlie

[addamsfamily36]

my DC is a 10 man squad w/ Lemartes, bolt pistols, bolt guns and chainswords and a inferus pistol on one man. they got into assualt w/ 2 20 man genestealers, lost the squad but the took 1 1/2 squad of stealers w/ them on that go and then the last time they died inside the rhino on turn 1. My DC is about 215 pts w/o rhino. Good luck on a full list of DC. Charlie

erm, lemartes and a rhino?

or are you running two types

one with lemartes on foot or with jump packs

and one with no lemartes and in a rhino.

[plawolf]

Anyone ever tried with running a small-medium DC squad with lemartes and Sanguinor?

If you really want an overkill deathstar, throw in a jump pack libby with shield and unleashed rage (seems appropriate for the DC no?) and Dante.

The biggest problem you will have is finding an enemy unit beefy enough to need that kind of overkill to take care of.

[Smotku]

I have 2 different squds of DC. A 12 man with jp 1 thammer, 1 pf ,3 pwr weps, and the rest with bolt psitol ch sword. I run them with Lemarttes. really expensive and not really worth it but still fun. I just deepstrike them so they can assaullt and try to avoid units that can kite.

the other one is 9 strong w/o jp and armed the same as the other squad and I ususally run them with a chaplain in a rhino. I just blast across the battle field 18" at a time until I get right next to a unit i want too kill next turn and let them sit in the rhino. If they blow it up then I am alrady out. If not i get out and assault next turn.

I did run sort of all dc list with both squads two dc dreads( which I think totally rock) astorath and DC tycho.
I had to fill in some other stuff to make the points. I fought two battles with this. won one against csm and tied against orks. It was a blast to play.

I think over all that dc are not points effective. I ussually run a 5 or 6 man squad in thrhino so I can get a dc dread.

[rle68]

Be careful of the ragnar, njal grey hunter squad . 10 grey hunters ragnar najl and maybe a wolfguard thrown in will either A eat them and spit them back or B. hold their own

Ragnar goes same time if you charge if he charges he goes first and njal with i4 and a 2+ armor save will live long enough to respond unless he charges they he goes before you even if you get the charge they hit on 3's (6-8 attacks with ragnar) each ragnar kills on 3's if you charge 2 if he charges all power weapons so fnp doesnt work between the two of them i have never had less then 5-9 kills and thats before the other 30 attacks come in

its a standard list for a hammer unit of wolves in an 1850 list

[thecactusman17]

You have two options here. You either need to max out the squad with jump packs OR you need to place everyone in a transport. the reason is the downside to Rage, which is that you suddenly stop being able to move in the direction you intend to. So when you are getting kited by my Reaver Jetbikes for example, you must be able to catch up and hurt them. I tied up a DC-using opponent a few weeks ago, just running across his models time and time again, leaving models just close enough to force him to attack my empty Raider instead of my unit-controlling Reavers.

[bloodangel 83]

erm, lemartes and a rhino?

or are you running two types

one with lemartes on foot or with jump packs

and one with no lemartes and in a rhino.

As of this min all DC are one squad but will get Capt Tycho to lead DC in the near future, i know i'm at odds w/ Lemartes w/ a jump pack and rhino. i will get more DC and use jet packs on them and use Lemartes as their squad leader. thanks for the c&c on my DC sqaud

[dannyat2460]

I run a full DC army and as yet havnt lost with it,

1800Pts

HQ
Astroth. 220

Troops
Death Company, 10 man 9 power weapons, thunder hammer.365
Death Company, 10 man 9 power weapons, 2 powerfists on one guy Lemarties. 535

Death compny Dreadnought. 125
Death compny Dreadnought. 125

Heavy Support
Storm Raven, TL multi melta, extra armour. 215
Storm Raven, TL multi melta, extra armour. 215

Very fast Very hard hitting needs a bit of luck but the only things you have to worry about are the storm ravens once the DC are on the ground they play themselves and the gunships go into close air support role

[addamsfamily36]

As of this min all DC are one squad but will get Capt Tycho to lead DC in the near future, i know i'm at odds w/ Lemartes w/ a jump pack and rhino. i will get more DC and use jet packs on them and use Lemartes as their squad leader. thanks for the c&c on my DC sqaud

Your not going to like me much, but i'm going to have to point out another flaw, this time with tycho.

Unfortunately, when he becomes death company tycho, he loses the ability to be counted as an independant character.

I know its sounds silly, it is silly, but i remember it being discussed recently after the codex was released. Then the FAQ came out and although it wasn't an errata, they compared tycho to mephiston and the sanguinor, Unit's within their own right. And without the independant character special rule. So not only does tycho have to run around by himself, if you wish to take him as well as a standard unit of death company, then you need to take astroth to unlock the "more than one unit of death company" option.

Sorry, don't hate me

If you want to go the jump pack route then either max out on a unit with jump packs and take lemartes, or take 5 death company with jump packs and lemartes and put them in a storm raven :D

for a rhino unit, a reclusiarch is plenty good enough :D

[DarkLink]

He's right. Death Company Tycho does not have the Independent Character special rule, nor does he even have a rule that allows him to join a unit of Death Company.

[bloodangel 83]

Your not going to like me much, but i'm going to have to point out another flaw, this time with tycho.

Unfortunately, when he becomes death company tycho, he loses the ability to be counted as an independant character.

I know its sounds silly, it is silly, but i remember it being discussed recently after the codex was released. Then the FAQ came out and although it wasn't an errata, they compared tycho to mephiston and the sanguinor, Unit's within their own right. And without the independant character special rule. So not only does tycho have to run around by himself, if you wish to take him as well as a standard unit of death company, then you need to take astroth to unlock the "more than one unit of death company" option.

Sorry, don't hate me

If you want to go the jump pack route then either max out on a unit with jump packs and take lemartes, or take 5 death company with jump packs and lemartes and put them in a storm raven :D

for a rhino unit, a reclusiarch is plenty good enough :D

I do have Grim and have added him to DC for a few turns, thank you for pointing out Capt Tycho would no longer be a indepentant character. "Red Glory" full of DC would make the guys i play with run for the door, i will try that when i get some more jump packs in the near future. Would you put Grim in the SR also or have him by his self? And i don't hate you for helping me with my BA DC squad, i welcome C&C's Thanks again.

[plawolf]

Has anyone run JP DC with Dante?

I would imagine that no scatter DS and Hit and Run would be pretty useful for them, and Dante isn't too shabby to have in a fist fight either. The only issue would be cost, so would it be worth it point wise?

[addamsfamily36]

I do have Grim and have added him to DC for a few turns, thank you for pointing out Capt Tycho would no longer be a indepentant character. "Red Glory" full of DC would make the guys i play with run for the door, i will try that when i get some more jump packs in the near future. Would you put Grim in the SR also or have him by his self? And i don't hate you for helping me with my BA DC squad, i welcome C&C's Thanks again.

Personally Grim works best in a unit. whether thats a death company unit or an ordinary assault squad, depends on the type of game you want to play.

Personally if your taking Grim i wouldn't take lemartes as well. Although both nice characters in their own right, they both share the same "chaplain rule" the re roll to hit and wound (in a death company unit)

Also in a storm raven, jump packs take up two models worth of transport capacity. so you could take both characters but you would only get 4 death company.

I would suggest 5 as a minimum and one character in the raven.

Lemartes is nice as he is part of the unit, like a veteran sergeant and can't be singled out like and Independant character.

Astroth gives you ability to gain more death company units and causes red thirst on a 1-3.

If you take both, i would definetly put astorath in a regular unit, spreading out the abilites, in one unit, your almost wasting the re-roll to hit from one of the characters.

Hope that helps. Any questions ask away.

[addamsfamily36]

Just read my post back, apologies for the appalling grammar:D

[somerandomdude]

IF you can get a charge off, that would probably be an extremely fun unit. Since Hit & Run ignores Rage, if you can get a charge, then Hit & Run in the opponent's turn, you could have a little bit of control on what they hit next.

You have to be careful though to make a unit that is tough enough to be worth using Dante this way, while not so powerful that they'll kill anything on the charge. And give them at least one Infernus Pistol (along with Dante's) so they can get some melta action on the drop, and possibly later turns.

[Tynskel]

hit n' run doesn't ignore Rage.
The rule applies to every phase. It specifically lists when it does not work.

[addamsfamily36]

I think what he means is, when you hit and run, you move in any direction 3d6.

So you charge in, hope not to wipe out the unit stay there for a turn. In the opponents turn at the end of the assault phase you hit and run. As this is not consolidating (which is effected by rage) you can move 3d6 towards a target of your choice. you then in your turn find your rage unit closest to the unit you want to charge.

rage effects all phases, but it states at the end of an assault phase you must consolidate towards the nearest enemy. hit and run states that you can move in any direction. The unit that doesn't have hit and run then can consolidate.

Its a cheesy tactic but one which i think its legal (unless i'm missing something in the rules).

[Tynskel]

The rule states that Rage is on at all time. The Rage doesn't explicitly state ignore Hit n' Run. Instead it explicitly states when you ignore it, and Hit n' Run is not listed.

[somerandomdude]

hit n' run doesn't ignore Rage.
The rule applies to every phase. It specifically lists when it does not work.

Would you care to cite a rule?

These are the effects of Rage:

1. In the Movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy.

2. In the Shooting phase, they are free to decide whether to run, but if they do they must run towards the closest visible enemy.

3. In the Assault phase they must always consolidate towards the closest visible enemy.

4. Whilst falling back, embarked in a transport, or if no enemy is visible, they ignore this rule.

How does Hit & Run interact with these four statements?

1. Hit & Run is not in the Movement phase.

2. Hit & Run is not in the Shooting phase.

3. Hit & Run is not a consolidation move.

4. Not applicable, as we are only concerned with models that are not ignoring Rage.

Conclusion: Hit & Run is not affected by Rage.

(Side note: According to Rage you aren't obligated to assault either, so if we want to argue "spirit of the rule" there are two things wrong with Rage.)

Also, I wouldn't call it a "cheesy tactic", especially if we are building an army devoted to DC in which you have no control over your units normal. If an opponent denies a chance to move your models under your own free will (and it will probably happen only 3 or 4 times and with just one unit) when the rules clearly allow it, then I'd call him unsporting, not you.

EDIT:


The rule states that Rage is on at all time.The Rage doesn't explicitly state ignore Hit n' Run. Instead it explicitly states when you ignore it, and Hit n' Run is not listed.

It also states (explicitly) what you need to do when affected by Rage. It doesn't say "No other actions may be taken". It says what is affected by Rage, and Hit & Run does not fall into any of the three categories of movement that it speaks of.

[Tynskel]

The rules cite all 3 phases of the game, and in all three phases it is on.
Second, whenever the unit moves, it must move toward the closest unit.
The rule then explicitly states when you are moving and do not have to apply rage.

Hit n' Run is not listed in the list. If you hit n' run, you run away 1".

Note, the rules for Rage only apply to movement where you have a choice--- If you choose to run, you run to the closest. When you consolidate you move toward the closest. Assault Phase movement has very strict rules, and in any case, you are moving into close combat.

Hit n' Run has a choice involved, and is not listed as an exception.

[somerandomdude]

The rules cite all 3 phases of the game, and in all three phases it is on.
Second, whenever the unit moves, it must move toward the closest unit.

Do you have a different rulebook than I do? Possibly another translation?

It doesn't say "whenever the unit moves." It says "In the Movement phase...", "... run towards closest...", and "... consolidate towards closest..."

You are correct that it speaks of all three phases, but it does not say "During any movement in those phases the unit must move towards the closest."

We're talking specifically about the Assault phase, so let's focus on that exclusively for the time being.

The only movement the Rage rule speaks of (in the Assault phase) is consolidation. When consolidating, the Rage unit must move towards the closest.

Is Hit & Run a consolidation move? At no point in the Hit & Run rule does it mention that it is a consolidation move of any type. It may appear to function like a consolidation move, but it is not.

Edit: Also, if you are making the argument that, since it is on in all three phases, it must affect all movement in those phases, then it would be impossible to launch a multiple assault with a Death Company unit, as any model that moves into contact with a second unit would not be moving towards the closest unit (unless we are treating each model individually, in which case I'm going to force my opponent's DC out of coherency from this point on). As written, you can launch multiple assaults with one unit, and you actually can launch an initial assault against a unit that is not the closest.

On another note, now that we're talking in depth about Rage. If there is a unit of Jump DC, and 14 inches to one side there is a Landspeeder, and 15 inches to another there is a Tactical Squad, can I spread out and move towards both? Assume I have 10 or more models so I have plenty of room for coherency. As long as the front model moves as fast as possible (12 inches) towards the Landspeeder, and I maintain coherency, it should be legal, shouldn't it? What constitutes a "unit's move"? Does the whole unit (meaning every model) move that way, or just the unit footprint? If the whole unit must move that direction, then that would force all of the models into base contact after a point, making them vulnerable to a single large blast weapon. You could argue "spirit of the rule/game" for either case, as the model closest to the Tactical Squad sees a juicy target within reach, and wouldn't care about the Landspeeder (especially if he just had a chainsword).

[addamsfamily36]

The rules cite all 3 phases of the game, and in all three phases it is on.
Second, whenever the unit moves, it must move toward the closest unit.
The rule then explicitly states when you are moving and do not have to apply rage.

Hit n' Run is not listed in the list. If you hit n' run, you run away 1".

Note, the rules for Rage only apply to movement where you have a choice--- If you choose to run, you run to the closest. When you consolidate you move toward the closest. Assault Phase movement has very strict rules, and in any case, you are moving into close combat.

Hit n' Run has a choice involved, and is not listed as an exception.

Well, it says in the movement phase units must move towards the nearest enemy.

in the shooting phase you don't have to run but if you do it must be towards the nearest enemy.

in the assault phase they must always consolidate towards the nearest visible enemy.

Now Hit and run is a completely different rule which happens before consolidating. if you are no longer in combat, how can you consolidate?

I know that hit and run isn;t mentioned in the rage rules, but the rulebook was written way before this codex and its probably the first time that a unit has been able to do it.

Yes i can see the point that Rage effected units must always consolidate. you could take this to mean that a unit must stay in combat until they can consolidate, by either killing a unit or if that unit is cut down or also hit and runs, but there is also a strong argument that if you hit and run, then the rage affected unit never has the opportunity to consolidate and therefore just stays where they hit and run too.

[addamsfamily36]

cheesy is ok.

if i didn't like a tactic or thought it was outrageously cheeky, i would call it dirty.

(personally death company leaving a fight is something i can;t bring myself to do)

either way nice spot.