Invulnerable Saves

[lovell.harmon]

If the only save listed for a model is a 3 invulnerable, and an effect removes invulnerable saves, does that mean the model has NO save, or that the save is no longer considered invulnerable?

This question has come up several times are our gaming club and there is a sizable split of opinions.

Under usual circumstances a model list two saves (e.g 3+/5+ invulnerable), it makes sense - any weapon with an AP 3 or less will not allow any saves if the invulnerable save is removed. However, what happens when the weapon is AP 4, allows no invulnerable saves, and the only save listed is 3+, and all saves are considered invulnerable (think Necron C'Tan)?

[Culven]

It will depend upon the Unit in question. Daemons have only an Invulnerable Save unless they specifically list an Armour Save. Necron Wraiths have a rule that states their listed Save is Invulnerable, but the FAQ says that it is supposed to mean they have a 3+/3++ Save. I'm not sure what the C'Tan rules state, but I assume that the same applies to them. I assume the situation involves a C'Tan and Psycannon/Incinerator since these weapons would allow 3+ Armour Saves.

[lovell.harmon]

In one case, it involved a Grey Knights vs. Necron battle with them facing a C'Tan (who only list an Invulnerable Save). Another instance was in fact a Wraith that also only list an Invulnerable Save. I wasn't aware of the FAQ adjustment.

[cKerensky]

Unless it specifically says so, they get no save.

If you shoot at a Daemon who does not SPECIFICALLY say they have an armour save, they don't get one. Psycannons were designed to kill daemons, incinerators even more so. Daemon Princes can get a 3+ armour save, on top of their invul, but if they don't take the upgrade, they get no save.

If they FAQ it for certain units, sure, but an invul is not downgraded to an armour save. It would defeat the purpose of the psycannon and incinerator.

[DarkLink]

Saves don't change type. So if all you have is an invulnerable save, and you get hit by a weapon that ignores invulnerable saves, you don't get your invulnerable save. Exactly what it says on the tin.

[Autarch Eldrad]

The C'tan Warscythe weapon does not let you take a invulnerable or regular save. If your character does not have an original save like the eldar harlequins, only has a invulnerable. Then the model is dead, since it can not use its invulnerable.

[Paintraina]

Be careful Sisters of Battle players when there are psycannons on the field.