Show me the tricks of Tzeentch

[charliemachina]

Here's my Daemon zilla list as it stands

Paymos - Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, Breath of Chaos, Master of Sorcery.
3 x 3 Flamers
3 x Daemon Princes, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Soul Devourer
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch, changeling, Icon, Instrament.
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch, Icon, Instrament.
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch.
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch.

Wave 1
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince
5 Horrors with Changeling, Icon.
5 Horrors

Wave 2
Paymos
Daemon Prince
3 Flamers
5 Horrors, Icon
5 Horrors

Now i know I want as many DP as possible but is there a better build for them in this list? Should i give them Breath instead of Bolt, Should I increase their strength to better go toe to toe with other monsterous creatures. What are they there for.

Also i'd love Ideas of how to work this army to it's maximum effect i either get glorious victories or against more able opponents cut appart peice meal. I've begun to appreciate that the shooty Daemon list revolves around taking out one part of your opponents army at a time but I feel there is more to playing this list than I am currently aware of.

The other day my friends Chaos Marine Daemon Prince with Warp time ate my three Daemon Princes and my Greater Daemon he was lucky but I couldn't help but think that I should have been able to stop one model chewing through my army so rampantly.

So can you please:
- Give me ideas of the best use of these units.
- Help me construct 3 DP's that can plug holes in the list.
- Get me thinking about how to get the most of this list

Cheers

Charlie

[Calypso2ts]

The DP look fine as is but I would drop the Soul Devourer, most multiwound models are ld 10.

I would also drop the Instruments on the Horrors, Breath and MoS on the LoC. Without We Are legion the LoC would be firing Bolt, Gaze and Breath at the same target which is overkill and they all deal with different types of units.

With those points I would add a Chariot of Tzeetch with another Bolt and We are Legion.

You should modify your waves based on opponent, but imo put 2x Flamers in wave 2. That way you can DS off an Icon and roast a nearby squad. As always, be bold with your DS. I played a tournament this weekend and flamers took out a full squad of BT Terminators Turn 1 with an aggressive DS.

[charliemachina]

I've found the Lord of Change gets Tarpitted really easy in assault i'#m unsure of what his role is i'm sure I could be using him more powerfully but the low attacks means his killing power in CC isn' tall that great.

The Flamers are mean if you double up two units of three they can slaughter massive units like nothing else!

How useful are the Scribes?

I was thinking +1 Str on the Deamon princes just to make sure they avoid the Tarpit. The problem i've found with my monsterous creatures is as they are my only close combat capable unit along with the Lord of Change there tends to be alot for them to do to keep my other units free.

I'm all over risky deep striking and found the 3 model flamer units excell at this.

cheers

Charlie

[eagleboy7259]

What points level is this? It would be helpful so we know what to sugguest. It looks like 1500 or 1850?

Lords of Change are possibly the worst of all the Greater Demons. You only get one bolt shot, and we are legion is an expensive upgrade. It might be better to trade him out and pick up 4 T Heralds on Chariots. They are decently surviable and pump out a good number of shots. I've been using 160pt DP's with MoT, Bolt and Gaze however you have a huge CC gap in your army. I would take your DP"s to be tooled up for assault - Flight, Might, MoT and if you have the points Hide & shooting attacks. You need something to dissuade the enemy from closing with your Tzeentch Demons - that kind of DP fits the bill. Alternatively you could take Soul Grinders - they're much cheaper and much better at kill although they are much less surviable.

The Blue Scribes rock - just not in an all Tzeentch army. To use them right you hide them in a largish unit of Horrors (usually the same one you have the Changling hiding out in). There they cast Pavene and Bolt out at stuff. Yes you can cast Pavene first and then again since you have We are Legion, just make sure you declare different targets when shooting in case you don't get your Watch This! the way you want.

[charliemachina]

1500 PTS

I find the idea of Soul Grinders against the all Tzeentch fuff i'm sticking with the DP's plus I like the combination of 4++ and 4 wounds.

Flight i'd love but find so expensive and same for hide.

Ill see if I can fit in extra strength on the DP's along with Gaze and bolt to take advantage of their BS.

I think i'll keep the Greater Daemon as i'm fond of him even though i'm unsure of his role, I think multiple assualt with the Monsterous Creatures is the order of the day to get the most out of them.

Cheers

Charlie

[charliemachina]

Apologies for Double post but I've rethought the army again and her it is:

Paymos - Greater Daemon of Tzeentch
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, wings, Deamonic Gaze
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, wings, Deamonic Gaze
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, wings, Deamonic Gaze
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch,
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch,
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch.
5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch.

Wave 1
Paymos
Daemon Prince
Daemon Prince
5 Horrors
5 Horrors
3 Flamers

Wave 2
Daemon Prince
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
5 Horrors
5 Horrors

1500pts

Thoughts on how to use them:

Attack one side of the enemy's army at range, kill it then, move on to the next.

Aim for rear armour.

Use monsterous creatures as protection for weaker units and to close with isolated armour if able to.

Gangs up on individual enemy units to be certain of kills.

Hide Horrors at range to keep them alive.

Deepstrike sensibly but be willing to take chances.

thoughts welcome

cheers

Charlie

[eagleboy7259]

You'd be better off running some Tzeentch Herald's as a second HQ slot instead of taking those flamers. Flamers are great against hordes and people who leave their stuff out in the open, but they just die so easily. You're basically paying 105pts a unit to try nd deep strike into flamer range - horrors are better at shooting (well not really better but 2 Horrors still runs a point cheaper than a flamer) and they are scoring. Sure they can put glancing hits on vehciles, but if they manage to actually pop the vehicle (or even if they don't) they're in rapid fire range and are just going to die next turn. T Heralds on Chariots are possibly the best HQ choice in the book (or atleast the best Tzeentch unit!) and are a much better use of points.

If you're giving a Demon Prince wings then you should tool him up to be a CC machine. I'd recommend diversifying your demon princes (2 flyers and a shooter or 2 shooters and a flyer) the shooters should have bolt, gaze and MoT. The assaulters need Hide, Strength, and Wings. Saving 60-120pts on wings definately helps increase the surviabilty of the rest of the army.

I'd definately sugguest at least playtesting the list with Fateweaver, some heralds, and more horrors.

[charliemachina]

Just tried out the above list in a clash of Heros senario against a pure death company army.

One squad of horrors wiped out 15 death company and a chaplain in one turn.

I struggled with the one rhino on the field despite half a dozen bolt hits on it. I found it very easy to lead the Death company into my horrors in order to save my Flamers.

I forgot the gaze on my princes.

Still I tabled the death company and it was very enjoyable for both of us.

Deepstriking Tzeentch units a range and moving them forward seems to result in the army lasting longer and enables you to build up a reasonable amount of force to counter assualt while also subjecting the enemy to several turns of shooting.

cheers

Charlie

[Lerra]

Flamers are one the best ways for daemons to deal with AV14. You want to immobilize or shake a vehicle until your monstrous creatures can chew it up. Or if it's a transport, just immobilize it and let it be. For a list that doesn't have a lot of fast CC to catch vehicles, flamers are gold.

You'll probably want some variety in your daemon princes. For example, make one or two into a faster, close-range princes. The others can be geared to sit back and shoot. More options means that there are fewer situations that you can't deal with.

Always buy the changeling. He's probably the best 5 points in the game.

The Blue Scribes are also amazing, mono-Tzeentch or not. They are a bit tricky to use properly but they really expand your bag of tricks.

The Lord of Change is kind of a waste. If you are going to put that many points into an HQ, put a few more in and get Fateweaver. He's actually pretty good for a mono-Tzeentch list, but he will change the way your army plays (for better or for worse). He makes your army much tougher, and he will attract a lot of firepower. It's not unusual for me to table my opponent having lost only Fateweaver, with everything else completely untouched. People are almost obsessive about killing Fateweaver ASAP and ignoring the flamers that are going to tear them to bits next turn.

With mono-Tzeentch, you can get away with 0 icons in the list. You don't have to deep strike as aggressively because you are a shooty deamons army. If you play Fateweaver, you will probably want one to sit near him, though.