Blood Angels Black Rage?

[energongoodie]

Ever since I got the latest Blood angel codex something in there has been bothering me and i thought I'd share it with you guys.
Back in the 90's the Primarchs got introduced and the Blood Angels got a back story. The idea behind the Black Rage and the Death Company was that the gene seed or genetic material material taken from Sanguinius to create the Blood Angels was removed after his death. This all part of the vampire tie in. Because he was dead the memories of his final battle were transferred with this genetic material into the Blood Angels that followed and some battle brothers relive their Primarchs final moments and descended into madness. Cool idea.

In the latest codex however, it clearly states that the Emperor removed genetic material from Sanguinius soon after meeting him and the Blood Angels were made whole again or words to that effect. There is no mention at all about anything happening after his death. No taking of Gene seed or Blood or anything, unless I have missed it.

Therefore, how have the Blood Angels got memories of the Primarch locked up in their geneseed /blood when it was taken before these events. I think they have got it wrong.

How about you?

[Gotthammer]

It was psychically imprinted upon them by the trauma of his death. Other accounts have the Blood Angels becoming manic and going on a counter-attack against the beseiging forces at the moment Sanguinius is killed by Horus.

[energongoodie]

Fair enough theory.
The psychic thing works for the marines battling on Earth but not the marines 10k later.
I don't like the idea of psychically affected gene seed that gets passed on nearly as much as it being taken from him when dead.
Were all the Blood Angels on or near Earth? Were some still out in space and unaffected?

[pgarfunkle]

I think in Collected Visions and maybe the current codex mentions how when Ka'Banda breaks Sanguinius' back the Blood Angels go crazy and attack, which is suggested as the first hints of the Black Rage and Red Thirst. I think the currect codex even hints at the Blood Angels being susceptible to the Red Thirst during the crusade, however the prescence of a living Sanguinius curbs the effect.

[energongoodie]

They could be susceptible to the red thirst during the crusade. But not the Black rage.

[WereWolf_nr]

With the memory imprinting that the Space Marines do, wouldn't the trauma of Sanguinius' death (direct or indirect) have been passed on thru the generations?

[energongoodie]

With the memory imprinting that the Space Marines do, wouldn't the trauma of Sanguinius' death (direct or indirect) have been passed on thru the generations?

If you are referring to the psycho conditioning they go through when turning into a space marine, then I do not see them as linked.
I do not like the idea of the Gene seed of anyone else other than Sanguinius having a memory. Plus I don't think all the Blood Angels would have been there possibly.

[Laodamia]

Fair enough theory.
The psychic thing works for the marines battling on Earth but not the marines 10k later.
I don't like the idea of psychically affected gene seed that gets passed on nearly as much as it being taken from him when dead.
Were all the Blood Angels on or near Earth? Were some still out in space and unaffected?

I think I could come up with an explanation for this problem, though it is certainly not "codex", it is just my point of view.

Pre-heresy BA were more or less psy-linked with their primarch, probably via the insertion of Sanguignus' gene-seed into their DNA. When the primarch is in danger, the BA tend to "feel it" and suffer extra amount of stress and anger, driving them closer to the "black rage/red thirst", nothing too dangerous for the chapter though, as long as they keep their s*** together.

But the fluff gives us two reccorded times during the HH when the entire chapter experienced a collective red thirst and went berzerk, one during a battle against daemons on their route towards Terra, the other one just after Sanguinius' death.

After these two dramatic events, we could guess that the "red thirst" flaw was "printed" into the gene-seed of the BA that experienced it on Earth. Since then, this flaw is passed from battle-brother to battle brother, just like a sin or an epidemy, down the millenias.

This could explain why some BA are subject to the red thirst/black rage and not others, even if none of the current BA battle brothers have seen the death of their primarch ten millenia ago.

[mstingray]

I think I could come up with an explanation for this problem, though it is certainly not "codex", it is just my point of view.

Pre-heresy BA were more or less psy-linked with their primarch, probably via the insertion of Sanguignus' gene-seed into their DNA. When the primarch is in danger, the BA tend to "feel it" and suffer extra amount of stress and anger, driving them closer to the "black rage/red thirst", nothing too dangerous for the chapter though, as long as they keep their s*** together.

But the fluff gives us two reccorded times during the HH when the entire chapter experienced a collective red thirst and went berzerk, one during a battle against daemons on their route towards Terra, the other one just after Sanguinius' death.

After these two dramatic events, we could guess that the "red thirst" flaw was "printed" into the gene-seed of the BA that experienced it on Earth. Since then, this flaw is passed from battle-brother to battle brother, just like a sin or an epidemy, down the millenias.

This could explain why some BA are subject to the red thirst/black rage and not others, even if none of the current BA battle brothers have seen the death of their primarch ten millenia ago.

Yeah I agree but I don't think GW will ever address it. If you've watched the DE production videos they basically say that they totally re-did most of the background. Although I haven't read it in a while I remember the Codex and the WD stating that Sanguinius was a powerful psyker

[energongoodie]

I think we have to go with the psychic imprinting of Sanguinius' death onto the gene seed of every single Blood Angel every where. If Magnus can blast across the Imperium with psychic powers so can Sanguinius.

[addamsfamily36]

The black rage/red thirst is a bit of a grey area. Many accounts tell of secrets on Baal. it's all a bit hush hush and kept within the chapter.

But there are some snippets that imply its origin.

-Theres the impact of Sanguinius's death

-His fight with Ka'Banda

And then i do believe, that the sanguinary priests were and are still injected with the blood of sanguinius (kept within a grail after his death), ensuring that his presence lives on. There are theories that over the generations, it has further mutated/tainted, amplifying the effects/curse of the blood angels.

Where this curse came from can be argued, but it would make sense that Sanguinius's powers of foresight was transferred to his chapter during his death. Or that the Bloodthirster Ka'Banda broke Sanguinius and sent a curse through the blood angels. either might explain the current condition.

Its one of my favourite sections though. the whole is it this is it that. i like not knowing all the information:D

[facelessone]

The red thirst is another super + that the BA get....were is the rage ???? all + & no - for them

[addamsfamily36]

The red thirst is another super + that the BA get....were is the rage ???? all + & no - for them

Except that fluff wise they go insane seeing their death over and over.

and ruleswise, rage means a clever opponent can effectively play cat and mouse with an expensive unit of death company.

[Absolon]

The Black Rage has alot to do with how Blood Angels are created. Those aspirents found worthy are put into a sarcophagus for a length of time (some of the older fluff has it at a year) during this period they are exposed to the blood of the Primarch among other things. Once they emerge they are unblemished angels not the radiation scared children of Baal. This exposure to the Primarchs blood transfers the genetic memory of their Primarchs last moments and death to all his sons.

[Tynskel]

the grail in spacehulk is a precious artifact because it contained dried blood of sanguinius after he died. Very little of the original blood is left, so this was a more important find than fighting the genestealers--- worth taking 15 terminators and a Librarian away from the original mission to go find the artifact.

It is true that the original Space Marines of the Blood Angels were made the way the were in the most recent codex. It is also true what had happened--- Sanguinius' Blood must be used to activate the implants. The sanguinary priests are injected with the blood to keep it alive. It still keeps the psychic memory of the Primarch.

[Xenith]

The part of the fluff you are thinking of still exists: Read the sanguinary priest section.

They injected the blood of sanguinius into their veins after his death as they no longer had the source.

[energongoodie]

The part of the fluff you are thinking of still exists: Read the sanguinary priest section.

They injected the blood of sanguinius into their veins after his death as they no longer had the source.

Yep. The blood they already had. Not blood taken from his dead body as was the point of the Blood Angels in the early days,