Dark Eldar Vs Guard

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So, my opponent has this -

HQ - Salamander Command Vehicle

Troop - Veterans with Major Kali - 3 Plasma Gun, Catchan Devils, Major Kali (Harker - special character)

Troop - Veterans with Capt. Sharpe - 3 Sniper Rifle, Grenadiers, Autocannon, Capt. Sharpe (Bastonne - special character)

Troop - Infantry Platoon
Command Squad with Heavy Bolter and Chimera
Squad 1 - Heavy Bolter and Chimera
Squad 2 - Heavy Bolter and Chimera
Squad 3 - Heavy Bolter and Chimera
Squad 4 - Heavy Bolter and Chimera
Squad 5 - Heavy Bolter and Chimera
3 x Heavy Weapon Platoon - 3 Autocannon Each
2 x Heavy Weapon Platoon - 3 Lascannon Each

Fast Attack - Hellhound

Fast Attack - Salamander Scout Vehicle
Heavy Support - Leman Russ Extrminator (Hand of Steel) with Commander Pask (special character)

Heavy Support - 2 x Leman Russ Exterminator

Heavy Support - 2 x Leman Russ Battle Tank


I have available - Archon, 5 Incubi, 30 Kabalites, 30 Wyches and Lelith, Uriel Rakarth, 10 Hellions, 9 Reavers, 5 Mandrakes, 2 Ravagers and 3 Raiders.

Recommendations?

[Axel]

The trick to beating mechanised Guard isn't really in the list building (given certain basic functions are included), but in how you use you units. Your first priority should be to dismount his platoon. Following that, multiple assault as many infantry squads as you conceivably can. The goal is to either stay in combat through his shooting phase or to force so many units to flee it was worth the sacrifice.

[DrLove42]

If you can dismount them your guys are going to have a wonderful game. 13 infantry squads = 13 Power from Pain tokens

How many points is this?

Give both ravagers DL. One against each leman russ sqn. 3 dark lances vs 2 russes hurts them. Remember...if they're in a squadron, an immobilised counts as destroyed.

Flickerfields on everything

Consider a WWP. By the time your reserves start pouring forth from it you should have dismounted a few squads. And that counters your lack of raiders.

Give Wych squad leaders a blast pistol. That way if they get there before the chimeras are gone they stand a chance to pop them then assault the dudes who get out. Also Haywire grenades...

Autocannons need to be a priority kill, as these will ignore FNP. So if they're set up at the back use a fast reaver flyover to cut them apart. Caltrops are good....

If you can infiltrate mandrakes close to his command squad they'll attract a lot of first turn attention. SO have them dig into cover and distract...

[ElCheezus]

Your opponent has enough troops, that just trying to deny scoring units won't work, especially when they're so mobile.

It will be best to focus on taking out the things that hurt you the most. Obviously that's the special characters and the heavy support. But don't forget about that Hellhound. They can wreak havok on almost everything you have.

I've never seen them play out, but a WWP sounds like a good idea in theory here. You can avoid a lot of fire by staying in reserve, then come in close enough to do damage. That's a lot of denied fire, which makes IG sad.

[thecactusman17]

Your biggest threat here is the Hellhound. It can and will kill you dead faster than anything else in the list, followed closely by the Autocannon teams. The tanks are definitely an annoyance, but your Ravagers should do some pain--start with the Exterminator, it's going to be a powerful force equalizer. Also, maneuver in from the furthest away point possible so that you can make the most of your night shields.

Oh, in case I forgot: nightshields will be mandatory for this fight. Otherwise you will be not just outgunned, but also outranged.

The fastest way to deal with the weapon teams is to run the Reavers over them. Every S6 hit from the Cluster Caltrops is going to kill a model outright. As for the Hellions, consider converting up some beasts to make a small squad of beastmasters. Witha good mix of beasts and a controlled rush, you will end up with a lot of models quickly crossing the board and getting into a good scrap. Get a good mix of everything in there and you'll have a powerfully complex unit that can handle a little bit of everything thrown at it, with invulnerable saves, high toughness, and potentially feel no pain.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

VERY useful so far guys, thank you for your input - I hope to post up a list this week, so maybe you can all add your comments when I do? Lots of ideas to help, thinking of making 'in game flash cards' to remind me of what tactics to use and priority targets to go for.

Nightshields - natch! Heat Lances on Reavers? Actually have the little webway portal thing from GW, so Archon will totally be suicide mission-ing to deliver that little doozie...

[rle68]

first off drop the wyches and take kabalite trueborns they will rock the ig from the start mass fire power with them will get you tons of pain tokens right off jump street

wyches arent any better at assaulting ig then anyone else. they are not what they used to be kabalite
trueborn with 4 blasters 2 shardcarbines and 2 splinter cannons will wreck ig dismounted and armor as well

drop the archon and take the baron and the duke your better off points wise and then the helions are troops!

and the added benefit of getting +1 to go frrst and then you get 2 rolls for combat drugs makes all the difference

2 ravs are fine 3 dls are the way to go your never moving less than 12" night shields and flicker fields are what you equip them with

3 raiders shock prow and flicker fields are about all you need

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Do the characters he's included give him any special rules? I know one of them in the Codex affects my reserve rolls...

[Da Gargoyle]

I would have a slightly different list but all in all I like the IG list. That Hellhound is a serious threat, even to the ravagers. You did not say if there were side sponsons on the tanks or what hull mounted weapons there were. Lasconnons from 6 tanks means carnage for your soft skin vehicles and the behemoth rule means you cop it from the main gun also.

I would have swapped the auto cannon for mortars, cheaper, indirect fire and pretty dangerous to troops such as eldar, orks and even the small nids.

Also look out for flamers, if you fall short of your assault range, like some one gets a cramp in the fleet move or something, he could roll up and BBQ your troops. That is if he has given them to his infantry squads.

People under estimate IG too much.

It also occurs to me that in assault, unless you curb your natural tendencies you wont have him locked with you to protect you from template weapons. A chimera only carries 10 men so you are likely to carve them up before he can say What the...... Which means you are standing there looking incredibly inviting.

[Archetype-]

Do the characters he's included give him any special rules? I know one of them in the Codex affects my reserve rolls...

Speaking as one who plays Mechanized Guard here.

Yeah, they provide a few benefits. Harker (or in this case, Kali) gives the squad he's with Infiltrate, Stealth, and Move Through Cover. Harker himself has Feel No Pain and Relentless, and he wields a Heavy Bolter. He also has one more point each of WS and S, but other than that he's like every other Guard sergeant.

Bastonne (Sharpe, in this case) is like a mini officer, able to issue almost every order a Company Commander can issue except for Get Back in the Fight to his squad. This could make his squad fairly dangerous to you, as he can do things like pour super-accurate autocannon fire into your vehicles or put a ton of hits on a unit in cover and force you to reroll those successful cover saves. His squad can always attempt to regroup, regardless of anything that may stop it. With a Leadership of 10, a Bastonne squad can be very hard to shift outside of close combat. Oh, and he has a hot-shot laspistol, power weapon, and a 4+ save.

Pask... he's gonna be a LOT of trouble for you. He makes one Leman Russ tank in the army BS 4, but the real kicker is his Tank Ace ability. If he stays put, he can add +1 to penetration rolls against vehicles and re-roll failed to-wound rolls against Monsterous Creatures.

You need to keep those Exterminators surpressed and/or hide from them. Their main gun will tear you apart if they can draw a bead on you, and unlike most Guard non-pie guns it's actually rather accurate. Shaking them is often good enough, and I've had my own Russes shaken enough to get rather annoyed.

You know what? Kill all the autocannons if you can. Those T3 autocannon teams would love a gift-wrapped caltrop. Well, because I wouldn't.

Those Hellhounds are also a high-priority target. They ignore cover, just about all of your infantry's armor saves, and deny FNP to roughly ninety percent of the codex. They always at least worry my opponents, so they generally get targeted quickly.

Does he like to field the Russes in squadrons? If so, killing them gets a bit easier. Immobilizations in squadrons tends to lead to wrecks. It's true, the BGB told me so.

Beyond that, all I can really say is reserves (I hate not having something to shoot at because it's late to the party) and I think the WWP to pick a part of the parking lot and swarm the crap out of it.

Good luck, and kill a crap ton!

-Archetype

EDIT: That "character" that affects reserves is actually two options for the Company Command Squad (something that is... oddly absent here). The Astropath lets the Guard player adds 1 to his reserves rolls (two does NOT make it +2) and he can reroll the dice to see what short table edge his outflankers enter from. The Officer of the Fleet subtracts 1 from your reserves rolls (again, two does NOT make it -2) and he can force you to reroll the dice to see what short edge your outflankers arrive from. He only gets those benefits while they are alive, so their deaths would end the reserves meddling for him. This is assuming he takes them, but all I see is a Forge WOrld model.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

You rock! Thank you for this, knowing what these guys are about has made things a whole lot easier. Pask and Bastonne must die quickly! I'll def be using the WWP, I may take Sliscus or Urien Rakarth with some Grotesques (proxy), just not sure yet. I'm certainly thinking that Trueborn with full array of blasters may be highly useful, but with so many guns at this disposal, I have to reason that the Raiders are going to be one-strike wonders, i.e. get them within 18" of a Leman Russ, blast the hell out of it, get blown up in return and footslog with any survivors. Hopefully, I can get them into combat in my next turn. Either way, I think getting that WWP in place asap is the order of the day.
Anyway, I'm babbling again, thanks for the reply though dude

[Ben.lamancha]

I would have swapped the auto cannon for mortars, cheaper, indirect fire and pretty dangerous to troops such as eldar, orks and even the small nids.

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Mortars > Autocannons? Not against Dark Eldar. In my experience, Dark Eldar HATE autocannons. With massed autocannon fire, you can force the vast majority of this footsloggers out of their disturbingly fast (albeit, made out of cardboard) boxes. They also hate slogging, especially when you have bigger, scarier templates. The best thing to do is use the 'Bring It Down' order, given to dedicated heavy weapon squads. Twin-linked autocannons are a glorious thing, and they'll also wreak all kinds of havoc with his infantry, if there aren't any better targets out there.

I'll grant you that Mortars are cheaper, but I've found Autocannons to be the more reliable choice for blowing up Dark Eldar transports. Str. 7 AP 4 is a lot better than Str. 4 ap 6.

[jorz192]

You guys are more experienced than me so I don't know if this would work, but what about Razorwing Fighters?

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

You guys are more experienced than me so I don't know if this would work, but what about Razorwing Fighters?

See, I'm thinking of including one but I have nothing to proxy one with - any ideas? I was thinking more Void Raven Bomber though

[jorz192]

I honestly have no clue. I don't think GW released any recomended dimensions or told us what is around the appropriate size/:

[BlindGunn]

I honestly have no clue. I don't think GW released any recomended dimensions or told us what is around the appropriate size/:
I have the original Forge World Fighters.

Razorwing has a 6" body, but the wings flow back to an over-all length of about 7.5". Wingspan is about 7.5". Body looks like an elongated Old-style Reaver Bike with enclosed cockpit.

The Void Dragon (bomber) has about 8" in length and a 9.5" wingspan.

Here's what FW says they look like. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Dark_Eldar)

The "area" or space occupied is similar to the Baracuda or the Guard Flyers (Razorwing being smallest of the bunch).

I suspect the new flyer models (IF/WHEN they come out) will be around 7-8 inches in length, with a wingspan of in the 8" range. If they go with a swing-wing like some of the Eldar fliers, it could be narrower - maybe 5" - 6".

Maybe put some wings on a Reaver, glue a couple together to increase the length until GW releases new models?


Good Luck!

[thecactusman17]

You can get a pretty cool aircraft conversion by using a single Raider transport and turning the curved side sections on their side, joining together at the front. Use the sails to make a pair of wings on either side. I have three of them, everyone who sees them thinks they look great. You'll need two identical sails though, so you'll need spares off a second kit. The nice things is that if you get new Raider chassis to make them, you will only need additional sail bits if you choose to give it a tail fin.

I recommend trying to make each of them fairly unique. Point the far ends of the wings outward to most closely resemble the original models in dimension.

I am going to finally sit my butt down and start painting them later today if possible, I will try to post photos.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

That'd be cool, interested to see these!

[w7west]

Guard will have little problem chewing through your vehicles, and they will win the demeching race no matter how well you play. It's simply a matter of for every lance you can shoot, they will shoot back with more shots that have a higher chance of wrecking your vehicles.


Guard is very cheesey and well equipped (if not the best equipped) to destroy you at the alpha strike game if you put all of your faith in feeble but fast squads. Where IG has a much harder time is in dealing with large squads of resilient scoring bodies. One tank will be able to take out entire 300 pt de squads with a single round of fire, but replace that squad with 20 warriors and attached haemoc for fnp, plop these guys in cover on some objectives.


Now that guard player who was content sitting back and nuking you from afar will have to actually advance up to you and try to get enough flamers on you to do something. I like to use 2 or 3 of these squads to form my core, and use them very defensively (maybe give them lances) always in cover, always spread out. Used like this, the squad is very safe from anything but a demolisher that rolled all the way into your deployment zone.

Now the IG player gets to choose from the first turn:

- do I start working on the 60+ guys in cover with fnp?
- do I stay back and camp objectives with the majority of my force (see parking lot strategy)
- do I focus on the most dangerous parts of the dark eldar army before working on the troops?

The truth is the only good option involves balancing all three of these questions and it is much harder to do than simply sitting back and nuking a traditional skimmer heavy de army.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

The scenario will be the ambush scenario in Battle Missions (which I don't have, so don't know how to form my army really). I am ambushing his Guard. Any changes of tactics here?

[BlindGunn]

The scenario will be the ambush scenario in Battle Missions (which I don't have, so don't know how to form my army really). I am ambushing his Guard. Any changes of tactics here?
Depends on one's outlook! :D

I normally prefer to take Generic list that I would use for anything, just to see what strengths (and weaknesses) it has, then work to improve them. It's a preference. You'll need to decide how you want to go.

In Ambush - the victim sets up EVRYTHING in the centre of the table in a 12" corridor. Ambusher can put anything he wants in reserves. He treats both long edges as his deployment zone.

The Catch 22 is that there's a 50/50 change on who goes first. You may not want to have anyone on the table, just in case you don't get 1st turn. On the other hand, you may end up feeding your forces into the Guard Grinder piecemeal.

Also - the choice to hit them all on one flank or catch them in a two-sided flank attack - I would want more list choices to split up and attack from both table sides than a single-sided attack.

Good Luck!

[w7west]

If you are blessed with the deployment offered by ambush, and your opponent is fine with you building a list to work in a specific scenario, I would consider the following units:

Talos x 2-3 (with haywire , chainflails) Huge threat that will demolish any vehicles it reaches. Would go auto 3 in this scenario except it would be nice to have at least one:
Cronos - Getting pain tokens early on will help balance the alpha strike nature of guard where they are at maximum strenght on their first turn.

Grotesques: With Urien these get much better but even without him this will be the most useful squad against gaurd. Due to point costs I would not use more than 8, but having two squads of 7 should pose a big enough problem for guard without breaking your point costs.

The reason grotesques are so good against guard is that they dont' care about mass volume of fire. In fact, the goal is to somehow trick your opponent into shooting as much as possible at these guys. Just keep them away from anything str 10 (this is why haywires on talos) and your grotesques will shrug everything off.

Beastmaster squads: So cheap, so so good at multiassaulting vehicles. These guys can stay in reserve and be ready to deal the deathblow after they come in. Remember the assault range on these guys is huge and against any vehicle that did not move over 6', a razorwing flock squad (10 razorwings) will tear it to peices. With the large squads you should be able to engage entire flanks of vehicles, damaging, suppressing, and destroying several.



IG will break you hard if you try to bring a fragile army to the close quarter fight. This is why I reccomend the strong and resilient foot squads from the new dex.