Assault Sweep-aid for Necrons

[Maelstorm]

Question:

If a player has multiple groups of Necron Warriors on the table and a Tomb Spyder within 6″ of a group that loses 5 models and then gets swept – will the models that went down before the sweep get a WBB roll to join another Warrior squad with the Tomb Spyder in range?

Thanks in advance for your assistance!

[Dyrnwyn]

Sweeping Advance affects the entire unit, not just the models left after the combat has ended but not resolved, so no. Previously killed Necrons are removed with their unit.

[Tynskel]

This is why I just use feel no pain with my friends- you get all of your rolls before things like leadership checks are made. Ups their survivability considerably. Wargear, like the orb, will always grant FNP.

[Maelstorm]

Page 40 of the LRB under "Sweeping Advances", 3rd paragraph states "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit ar this stage, for them the battle is over."

Necron Codex rules overide the LRB "Sweeping Advance" rule, correct?

Page 13 of the Necron Codex under Tomb Spyders states "If a Necron cannot self-repair because no model of the same type is within 6", it may still self-repair if there is both a Tomb Spyder within 12" and another model of the same type on the battlefield."

[Dyrnwyn]

Page 40 of the LRB under "Sweeping Advances", 3rd paragraph states "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit ar this stage, for them the battle is over."

Necron Codex rules overide the LRB "Sweeping Advance" rule, correct?
No, it does not. The Necron codex doesn't specify that it ignores Sweeping Advance, so it doesn't have the specific override SA requires to ignore it. Sweeping Advance, along with Power Weapons, and weapons S8+ deny WBB.

Furthermore, the Sweeping Advance removes the whole unit, so those 5 downed Necrons are removed with the rest of their unit in the Sweep.


Page 13 of the Necron Codex under Tomb Spyders states "If a Necron cannot self-repair because no model of the same type is within 6", it may still self-repair if there is both a Tomb Spyder within 12" and another model of the same type on the battlefield."
I am aware of what the Tomb Spider's rules say. They only grant an exception to models who are unable to WBB because of a lack of a like model within 6", they do not negate the need to still be able to qualify to WBB.

I have seen many a long an hotly argued thread on this very subject - in the end, WBB is denied by Sweeping Advances by the rules as written.

My personal house rule fix for Necrons is to count them as Stubborn while in Close Combat - at least then they can return to thier 4th ed strategy of using their Ld 10 to largely avoid being Swept, followed by Monolith Teleportation or the Veil pulling them out of combat.

[Necron_Lord]

Unfortunately, no.

WBB rolls are made at the beginning of the necron player's turn, and those 5 Necrons would have been removed from the table during the other player's assault phase, so those necrons wouldn't be around for their WBB rolls.

Ditto if your 'crons got hosed in your assault phase.

[talos]

Actually necrons waiting for WBB are not part of the unit anymore, so they are unaffected by the sweeping advance that happens to the unit.

[SeattleDV8]

Actually necrons waiting for WBB are not part of the unit anymore, so they are unaffected by the sweeping advance that happens to the unit.

The downed models are still part of the unit.
Monolith teleport, The last paragraph of the Power Matrix description "Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll Be Back'............".
The Necron FAQ
"Q. When do you remove Necrons that fail their
WBB roll?
A. Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move."
So either they are destroyed by SA and can teleport as they are still part of the unit
or they are uneffected by SA and you can't teleport them as they are no long part of the unit.

[talos]

Read in Necron Codex
We'll be back
Page 13
1st paragraph

Damaged Necrons are ignored for all normal game purposes. No sweeping advance for necrons waiting to wbb then.

The rule and faq you posted are the exception as they mention damaged necrons specifically.

[Necron_Lord]

Let's say that in the assault, five necrons 'die', and there are five left. The necron unit fails their morale test, and gets destroyed in a sweeping advance.

What happens to the 'dead' necrons?

They are still considered part of the unit. Why?

Read the part about WBB in the Necron FAQ. Are they removed after they fail their WBB - no, if that unit was going to teleport in the monolith and get to re-roll failed WBB rolls, and remain part of the unit they were with previously. Furthermore, in the other question about whether the 'dead' necrons remain where they were or fall back with their unit if they weren't killed in a sweeping advance, the 'dead' necrons fall back with the rest of the unit - therefore, IT REMAINS PART OF THE UNIT.

Sweeping advance says that the ENTIRE UNIT is removed. Therefore, the 'dead' necrons go as well.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. The FAQ states that the 'dead' necrons are part of the unit for something beneficial (re-roll failed WBB rolls when teleporting through a monolith), but you want to make it seperate from the unit when it is a drawback (getting removed from the table after a sweeping advance). This is borderline WAAC rules torturing.

Exceptions - the unit is wiped out to the last necron, but they would be allowed WBB roles if there was a Necron within 6" of the same type. Let's say that a different necron unit of the same type is within 6" of the unit that got destroyed. Those necrons in the destroyed unit WOULD be allowed WBB rolls in the following friendly necron player turn, but the unit they were in still counts as being destroyed and they would then become members of the other necron unit.

The same situation would occur, if there wasn't a friendly necron unit within 6", but a tomb spyder was within 12" of the necron unit which got killed to the last necron and there was another friendly necron unit of the same type on the board.

The difference between the two situations are: during a sweeping advance, the unit still exists (which the 'dead' necrons are a part of) and the ENTIRE UNIT is removed. In the other situation, since no necron of the old unit is still on the table, for all intents and purposes, the unit is dead, but they can still get WBB if another unit is close enough, or if they are close enough to a tomb spyder and another friendly necron unit of the same type in on the board. Look at the Necrons Falling Back section of the Necron FAQ.

[talos]

Don't make me quote the codex in here. Read the paragraph (2nd printing codex) I wrote in my last post. It is clear that damaged necrons are not affected by anything. The exception is rules that specifically mention damaged necrons. If sweeping advance said it wiped the unit and necrons waiting for wbb then you would have to remove them. It doesn't, so the models stay on the table and if another unit or tomb spider is near, then they can roll WBB.

[Dyrnwyn]

Don't make me quote the codex in here. Read the paragraph (2nd printing codex) I wrote in my last post. It is clear that damaged necrons are not affected by anything. The exception is rules that specifically mention damaged necrons. If sweeping advance said it wiped the unit and necrons waiting for wbb then you would have to remove them. It doesn't, so the models stay on the table and if another unit or tomb spider is near, then they can roll WBB.

1) WBB is a special rule.
2) Sweeping Advance ignores any special rules which would rescue the unit, unless they specifically ignore Sweeping Advance, e.g. And They Shall Know No Fear.
3) If you leave the previously downed Necrons on the table, you have not removed the whole unit.
4) You have effectively rescued the unit, through the use of a special rule which Sweeping Advance does not allow.

To restate the multiple points from a previous thread on this:
1) Sweeping Advance is specific in that it removes the entire unit with no special rules able to rescue them, unless the special rule in question specifically mentions that it supersedes SA; WBB is a special rule, and WBB has no specific call out to override SA, thus it can't rescue the unit.

2)You can't claim that the unit is simply knocked over by SA, and then can WBB next turn either. The SA text specifies two actions before resolution - the unit is destroyed, and the unit is removed. Neither of these actions can be prevented by a special rule. When the Sweep resolves, the unit is removed from the table to resolve the Sweep, and WBB can't kick in as it does not specifically override SA. There's no unit left after the Sweep to WBB.

3)You can't even claim that models downed before the Sweep can WBB, as downed models are still part of their unit (which must be removed to satisfy the Sweep). This is according to multiple questions in the Necron FAQ (which specifies that downed Necrons move with their unit when falling back), the Monolith rules (which grant models in the teleported unit re-rolls on WBB), and is supported by the WBB rules themselves (which state that a Necron only joins the nearest unit once it has made a successful WBB, and that downed Necrons ignore coherency with their unit). If previously fallen models can't be swept, then the Monolith re-roll does not function at all.

4) You will have to concede the fact that you are reading identical rules in two different ways. The rules for Sweeping Advance and WBB in 4e and 5e are functionally identical. The only difference is the removal of the parenthetical "such as WBB" example for 5e. You couldn't use WBB in 4e, and 5e has the exact same rules text on both rules. What makes you think you can use it now?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, the "ignored for normal game purposes" means that you can't target, shoot or assault the dead models. They're still part of the unit, for the reasons above, but they're not physically there for that turn. When something special does happen to them or the unit, however, they are still part of the unit and thus affected.

[talos]

OK let's quote the rules

We'll be back pg.13
"Damaged Necrons are ignored COMPLETELY for ALL NORMAL game purposes such us ... they are debris only"
So if you are using sweeping advance to remove them you are not ignoring them. You are doing the exactly opposite.

Sweeping advance:
"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"
As We'll be back says, a Necron unit for all normal game purposes, such as this, consists only of undamaged necrons. Sweeping advance isn't something special. It is within normal game purposes. The damaged ones are not considered part of the unit unless specifically mentioned in a rule. So it is clear that the models affected by sweeping advance are only the undamaged ones. The already damaged necrons do not take saves or are rescued by any means at this stage. They are considered truly dead. Debris as the codex says. A WBB roll isn't a save, is a chance to "get back to life" in the Necrons player turn. So in the end you have a destroyed unit with a few models waiting to WBB.

[Dyrnwyn]

OK let's quote the rules

We'll be back pg.13
"Damaged Necrons are ignored COMPLETELY for ALL NORMAL game purposes such us ... they are debris only"
So if you are using sweeping advance to remove them you are not ignoring them. You are doing the exactly opposite.
Not what my codex says. "Damaged Necrons ignore normal coherency rules and cannot be attacked in any way - they are seen as just more battlefield debris." Although I'll grant you that I have a first printing.

The current printing says : "Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only."
The gist of this is that the models are ignored for most game purposes. Their unit is not however and Sweeping Advance affects units. If their unit is Swept, the entire unit has to be removed - this includes the downed models as they are part of the unit, and can't be saved by any special rule - i.e. WBB.


Sweeping advance:
"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"
As We'll be back says, a Necron unit for all normal game purposes, such as this, consists only of undamaged necrons
No offense, but that is prime grade bull excrement. Damaged Necrons clearly belong to their unit. Otherwise they wouldn't need to ignore coherency, wouldn't fall back with thier unit, and couldn't be teleported by the Monolith. If you claim that for all normal game purposes the unit only consists of undamaged Necrons, then the Monolith doesn't function at all, because it doesn't have any special text that allows the damaged Necrons to teleport, it just teleports units, and allows damaged Necrons in those units to reroll WBB.


Sweeping advance isn't something special. It is within normal game purposes. The damaged ones are not considered part of the unit unless specifically mentioned in a rule. So it is clear that the models affected by sweeping advance are only the undamaged ones. The already damaged necrons do not take saves or are rescued by any means at this stage.
You haven't removed the whole unit, and have left some on the table because of a special rule. That sounds like the unit has been rescued because of a special rule to me. You can quibble about how they are ignored but the fact remains that they are part of the unit and you haven't removed them from the table - so you aren't satisfying the conditions for the Sweep.


They are considered truly dead. Debris as the codex says. A WBB roll isn't a save, is a chance to "get back to life" in the Necrons player turn. So in the end you have a destroyed unit with a few models waiting to WBB.
But you don't have a destroyed unit because damaged Necrons belong to their parent unit until they fail a WBB and are removed, or succeed and join a new unit. At the end of the Sweep if you have Necrons left from the Swept unit then the unit is still there.

Two points to make - specific overrides general. We have a general rule about model death, a special rule about Necrons being able to avoid model death(WBB), and then we have a more specific rule that ignores special rules about avoiding model death (SA), unless the special rule is even more specific about ignoring it (ATSKNF). WBB says that the models are ignored, SA says that any special rule that would rescue a unit is ignored - if it would leave models from the unit on the table, it's rescuing the unit, so WBB and all the notations under it's heading are ignored.

Secondly, how long have you been playing? Because the rules for WBB and SA were identical back in 4th ed - and WBB was disallowed. Even used as an example of a rule about model death that was ignored by SA. Working from precedent doesn't favor WBB.

[MaxKool]

While I do agree with alot of what is said here is my take as somone who has been playin crons since day one and 40k alot longer..

GW is rife with examples of rules wordings that changed just like Sweeping advance IE the removal of the (including WBB) from the rule. And in most of those cases were faqd to reflect the change stating that the wording is in no way changing the rule and was just done for cleaning up the wordings.

I wonder, as GW has never FAQd this has anyone assumed it was removed for a reason to make it so us necrons werent totaly boned by 5th ed? I mean the designers arnt idiots, they knew that 5th ed was a MAJOR kick in the happy sack for the necrons, perhaps this was removed on purpose. Also does no one rember that In addition to this change, the SE rules changed? When all u needed to be was outnumbering to be imune to SE perhapes the WBB exemption was dropped to compensate for the changes in SE....

I just think that without word from GW all of this is just a educated guess. No one knows for sure....

I only say becuse I can think of a few examples of things in my Skaven book off the top of my head that were worded EXACTLY the same as the previous edition and were then faqd to clear up that there was infact to change to how the rule worked.

It seems that with no input from GW I wonder why everyone always takes the low road with the crons and never gives them the benifit of the doubt. There is always 2 ways to look at it and I notice when it comes to the necrons, people like to keep them down. Perhaps still bitter from being destroyed by them for so long. I know from 3rd and 4th ed I think I lost mabye 2 games with my robo-skeletons of doom....


Facts, Draw your own conclusion and play how u and your opponents think is fair.

1) Sweeping advance used to have specific wording for WBB in addition to the "No special rules"
2) Sweeping advance no longer has this WBB mention
3) There are many things in our codex that dont translate clearly to 5th ed.. EG why arnt our jetbikes t5(6)
4) Codex over rides rulebook
5) Rulebook has no wording disalowing WBB specificly anymore....

Why keep us in the toilet cause you apparently can read the 5th ed designers mind.... This one thing would make us more competitive and in NO WAY does it make us overpowered. Anything to have more Xenos players is good in my book, Im sick and tired of marine vs marine vs guard all the time.....

[Dyrnwyn]

GW is rife with examples of rules wordings that changed just like Sweeping advance IE the removal of the (including WBB) from the rule. And in most of those cases were faqd to reflect the change stating that the wording is in no way changing the rule and was just done for cleaning up the wordings.
Which changes are you thinking of?


I wonder, as GW has never FAQd this has anyone assumed it was removed for a reason to make it so us necrons werent totaly boned by 5th ed? I mean the designers arnt idiots, they knew that 5th ed was a MAJOR kick in the happy sack for the necrons, perhaps this was removed on purpose. Also does no one rember that In addition to this change, the SE rules changed? When all u needed to be was outnumbering to be imune to SE perhapes the WBB exemption was dropped to compensate for the changes in SE....
I highly doubt it. In my experiences with GW, they simply make changes, and any FAQ answers are to address how those changes affect the rules - no thought is given to patch up older codecies or rules via any erratta other than removal of no longer relevant text.


I only say becuse I can think of a few examples of things in my Skaven book off the top of my head that were worded EXACTLY the same as the previous edition and were then faqd to clear up that there was infact to change to how the rule worked.
But did those changes happen because of changes in the core rules? Because we're talking about a core rule and a codex rule and their interaction, neither of which has changed in any significant fashion.


It seems that with no input from GW I wonder why everyone always takes the low road with the crons and never gives them the benifit of the doubt. There is always 2 ways to look at it and I notice when it comes to the necrons, people like to keep them down. Perhaps still bitter from being destroyed by them for so long. I know from 3rd and 4th ed I think I lost mabye 2 games with my robo-skeletons of doom....
When I play against the 'Crons in friendly games, I usually give them the option of choosing to be Stubborn in CC, so that they can duplicate their 4th ed strategy of taking the charge wounds, passing morale on Ld10, and then teleporting out.



1) Sweeping advance used to have specific wording for WBB in addition to the "No special rules"
2) Sweeping advance no longer has this WBB mention
3) There are many things in our codex that dont translate clearly to 5th ed.. EG why arnt our jetbikes t5(6)
4) Codex over rides rulebook
5) Rulebook has no wording disalowing WBB specificly anymore....
I take issue with basically all of these points.
1) It did not have wording for WBB 'in addition' to special rules, it had a parenthetical mention of WBB as an example of special rules that are ignored.
2) See 1). It was an example, not a specific call out that prevented WBB before and now doesn't. The rules themselves are enough to prevent WBB.
3)Necron jetbikes have the T bonus included permanently in their profile - you already have a better version of bikes, otherwise Destroyer lords would be T5(6) and Destroyers would be T4(5).
4)This is only true in cases of identically named rules with contradictory text. The true rule of thumb in reading rules is specific overrides general.
5)The main rules still disallow WBB from a SA just from the way it is worded.


Why keep us in the toilet cause you apparently can read the 5th ed designers mind.... This one thing would make us more competitive and in NO WAY does it make us overpowered. Anything to have more Xenos players is good in my book, Im sick and tired of marine vs marine vs guard all the time.....
I'm not 'keeping you in the toilet.' I'm telling you what the rules actually say. You or I are free to actually play the game with whatever house rules we wish, and I often do when playing against Necrons. However in terms of what the rules actually say - WBB is denied by SA.

[talos]

@Dyrnwyn
Firstly you are reading the older version of the codex (pdf maybe?). The 2nd printing is as I quoted and it is clear about WBB . The 1st printing had many vague points (as with living metal).

Secondly you fail to realize that "damaged" necrons are not considered damaged ingame. They are dead, destroyed, kaput, debris, non existent. And are to be ignored COMPLETELY. So they are not part of the unit. BUT at the beginning of the necron player turn they have a chance to come BACK to life. We refer to them as "damaged" because it is easier than "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligible". So at the end of the sweeping advance the unit IS destroyed. It just happens that any models not destroyed by sweeping advance but were "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligible" get to roll the WBB. Also consider that these models don't form again the destroyed unit, they reappear in a similar unit of necrons close by. That is because the sweeped unit WAS destroyed.

[Dyrnwyn]

@Dyrnwyn
Firstly you are reading the older version of the codex (pdf maybe?). The 2nd printing is as I quoted and it is clear about WBB . The 1st printing had many vague points (as with living metal).
I already mentioned I had the first printing and provided the relevant WBB text from the second printing quoted from an older debate. That doesn't negate any of my points.


Secondly you fail to realize that "damaged" necrons are not considered damaged ingame. They are dead, destroyed, kaput, debris, non existent. BUT at the beginning of the necron player turn they have a chance to come BACK to life. We refer to them as "damaged" because it is easier than "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligable". So at the end of the sweeping advance the unit IS DESTROYED. It just happens that any models not destroyed by sweeping advance but were "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligable" get to roll the WBB.
Again, I call bull****. Damaged models may not be counted for most normal game purposes, but they remain part of their unit. The Monolith rules outright tell us so, and their need to ignore coherency implies it. The FAQ also tells us so. The WBB rules themselves tell us so, in that they don't join a new unit until they pass their WBB roll. If models from that unit are still on the table, you haven't removed the unit. If you haven't removed the unit then it's a special rule that rescues the unit and SA ignores it.

[talos]

Again what you are saying is not ignoring the "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligable" COMPLETELY. Codex says so, so you must.

The unit sweeped is destroyed and removed. The enemy gets the KP and thats it. The models that were dead before the sweeping advance from that unit are ignored during the sweep and can join another unit close by if they make their wbb.

[Dyrnwyn]

Again what you are saying is not ignoring the "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligable" COMPLETELY. Codex says so so you must.
That first sentence is gibberish. What I'm guessing here is that you're saying that because the codex says they are ignored for all normal game purposes, then they are ignored in the Sweep? I can't tell exactly what you're saying. Secondly, I'll remind you that specific overrides general, not codex overrides rulebook.


The unit sweeped is destroyed and removed. The enemy gets the KP and thats it. The models that were dead before the sweeping advance from that unit are ignored during the sweep and can join another unit close by if they make their wbb.
Again, as I have noted multiple times, the damaged models are still part of the parent unit.

Do you use a Monolith at all? If you use a Monolith to teleport downed Necrons and reroll thier WBB checks, then you must remove downed models as part of the Sweep. If you argue that the models don't have a unit affiliation once down, then they can't be puled through the Monolith Portal as they don't belong to a unit and can't be targeted as the Monolith targets units.

We've gone back and forth on this point multiple times -

Your case is to say that downed models are completely ignored for all game purposes, and only exist to remind you how many models might stand back up. Because they aren't actually there or part of the unit, SA can't touch them. Downed models aren't actually there in your interpretation.

I say that the damaged Necrons are more than simply markers, on account of the need to actually check range to them for the purposes of WBB, as well as multiple sources which point to the fact that damaged Necrons still count as part of their parent unit. Because of the fact that damaged Necrons left behind would be leaving some of the unit behind, the entirety of the WBB rule is ignored by SA on account of it preventing the entire unit being removed. This includes the 'ignored completely' bits.

If you posit something new or specifically address one of my points, I'll respond, but your 'ignored completely' argument has worn thin and any further back and forth between us is just going to cover old ground.

[talos]

@maelstorm
In all the formal tournaments I have attended, the ruling in this case is that necrons waiting for WBB are ignored during the sweeping advance, as per Codex. You can use the arguments I have posted above.

@Dyrnwyn
Codex OVERRIDES rulesbook. That's a rule.
You know, I don't really care to argue with you since, as I have said to Maelstorm, when this issue came up, all the judges in all the tournaments I have attended, have agreed to the line of thinking I have expressed above. So you can deny necrons of the wbb completely for all I care. It doesn't matter to me.
But if a senile judge in a tournament rules that dead necrons are still part of the unit, since in order to capture an objective you have to have at least one scoring unit within 3", I will use the dead necron warriors to capture objectives. This is far more exploitable and I'll have more fun seeing the enemy player sacrifice ceremoniously that judge to Tzeentz for giving me such an advantage...

[dannyat2460]

Unfortunatly even tho I hate to say it i have to agree with talos, codex takes presidence even tho its not written in the official rule book anymore (ive just spent 10min trying to find it).

So casulties caused before the sweeping advance are able to take WBB rolls if allowed to take them and will join the nearest unit models killed by SA are not allowed to take WBB rolls.

I do not however agree that downed necrons are allowed to capture objectives

and finaly to collect necrons (the rule at our local store is you must have been abused as a child) and use them in competetive games makes judges like me cry as there so badly written rules

[Dyrnwyn]

@Dyrnwyn
Codex OVERRIDES rulesbook. That's a rule.
Quote it for me boyo. In it's entirety.

Codex taking precedence over main rulebook is mentioned all of twice. Both times, on page 62 in the Smoke Launchers box, and at the start of the reference section in the back of the book, it's only mentioned that Codex takes precedence over rulebook in the event of a contradiction in rules, or in the event that two identically named rules exist.

There's no general rule that codex always supercedes the rulebook in every circumstance, instead we have the general guideline of all systems of rules - specific beats general. It just so happens that the majority of rules in the main book tend to be general, and the codexes usually contain exceptions to these rules.


You know, I don't really care to argue with you since, as I have said to Maelstorm, when this issue came up, all the judges in all the tournaments I have attended, have agreed to the line of thinking I have expressed above. So you can deny necrons of the wbb completely for all I care. It doesn't matter to me.
Judges and organizers are free to rule as they wish. I myself would probably implement a house rule as a better way of balancing the horrid state of the Necron army, but as a minor way to help them, I would probably rule that way myself - before the tourney started. But I am aware that this isn't actually what the rules say. I've also seen tourney's prevent the use of some models, and judges rule in contradiction to official FAQs. The Deffrolla fiasco comes to mind.


But if a senile judge in a tournament rules that dead necrons are still part of the unit, since in order to capture an objective you have to have at least one scoring unit within 3", I will use the dead necron warriors to capture objectives. This is far more exploitable and I'll have more fun seeing the enemy player sacrifice ceremoniously that judge to Tzeentz for giving me such an advantage...
One, I wouldn't call a judge senile for actually ruling that the rules as written should be followed. Perhaps beholden to the letter of the rules rather than their spirit, but not something I would fault him for. Two, by the second printing wording, you can't measure range to the downed models, so you can't use them to check and see if you're in 3".

[Necron_Lord]

@Dyrnwyn

Please don't feed the trolls.

[Dyrnwyn]

@Dyrnwyn

Please don't feed the trolls.

Well I don't have a huge post count myself, and he is arguing the more popular side of the debate. I don't see a reason to assume he's a troll rather than merely obstinate.

[talos]

@dannyat2460 ofcourse downed models don't count for capturing objectives. But if someone decides that downed models ARE part of the unit and can interract with other models (I say they don't), then why not capture objectives? The rule for objectives mentions just unit!
Yep, it is a stupid counter argument but it can trash an unlikely judging :)

And for the record I am no troll. I just don't care for e-arguments. But I couldn't just watch a new necron player get misinformed.

Also for the rest of those that still believe that "dead necrons awaiting to roll for WBB if they are elligable" are affected by sweeping advence I found this in the older Necron Faq/Errata . File is named: WarHammer 40K [errata] NecronQAver2.DOC

Q. Do Necrons that are down awaiting an opportunity to make their ‘We’ll
be back’ (henceforth WBB) roll count as Necrons of the same type for
determining whether a WBB roll can be made.

A. Absolutely not, Necron casualties remain on table as markers only to remind
the players how many WBB rolls will be needed and the position where the
casualties were taken. For models to self-repair they need an active model of the
same type within 6” (or a Tomb Spyder within 12” and another similar active
model on the table).

This Faq/Errata was used to make the 2nd prinitng. Except the improvement on the wording of WBB it also improved the wording on Living Metal and Monolith Portal.

[SeattleDV8]

Old FAQ have no standing in a rules debate.
How a local tourney judges this means little (except to the players in that tourney)
The INAT rules it this way
"NEC.13A.02 – Q: If a Necron unit is wiped out by a Sweeping Advance in close combat, can any of the models in the unit (including its damaged ones) use „We‟ll Be Back!‟ to repair themselves?
A: No, as a special rule cannot be used to save models from a Sweeping Advance [clarification]."
Still this only effects the tourney it is used in.
I've already proven that the downed models are still part of the unit.
Monolith teleport, The last paragraph of the Power Matrix description "Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll Be Back'............".

Necron FAQ.
"Q. When do you remove Necrons that fail their
WBB roll?
A. Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move."
". A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in
close combat by a unit with power weapons.
However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To
keep things simple, when the casualties are
suffered, assess whether they are in range of the
resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and
move them with the unit."
This shows that the downed models are still part of the Unit, otherwise they could not be teleported.
Yes the downed model could change which unit they are with, but only after the WWB roll.
Secondly WWB effects wounded Models, Sweeping Advance removes Units.
SA does not wound or cause casualties to models it removes the Unit from play.

Codex>BRB does not come into play because a codex rule has to mention SA in order to over rule it.
No save or special rule can save them.
ATSKNF is an example of a Codex rule that does overrule SA.
WWB doesn't have this.

[talos]

So even if an errata of the game designer says explicitely that downed models are just markers you continue to treat them as models... OK then...

I think for those that have a neutral stance in this matter I have made my point. For the others... good luck...

[SeattleDV8]

So even if an errata of the game designer says explicitely that downed models are just markers you continue to treat them as models... OK then...

I think for those that have a neutral stance in this matter I have made my point. For the others... good luck...

No, I treat them as part of the Unit.

The current FAQ
"Q. Do Necrons that are down and awaiting an
opportunity to make their We’ll Be Back
(henceforth WBB) roll count as Necrons of the
same type for determining whether a WBB roll
can be made?
A. No they do not count."
Is different from your older version and is the one we now use.

[talos]

OK you go and think what you think. What matters for me is who I play with and the jugdes at the tournamets I participate in. They always agree with this point a view so :D

[Gir]

I'd just like to point out that under the monolith teleport rule in the Necron codex it actually says that downed models are part of the unit.

[talos]

@gir if you read the Codex WBB rule I have posted, it is saying that dead necrons are completely ignored for all normal game purposes. I think we all know the meaning completely. The monolith teleport rule is not "normal game purposes" as it affects the WBB roll. In fact anything that mentions dead necrons is when it may affect their WBB roll. That's because dead necrons are effectively markers for wbb rolls.

[SeattleDV8]

Models are ignored, Sweeping Advance effects the Unit.
Again if you allow the Monolith Teleport you have to allow SA.
Your logic on this is inconsistant.
I have shown where the downed models are still part of the unit,
Here's another one Necron FAQ
"Q. If a Necron unit teleports through the
Monolith’s portal, do the unit’s damaged
Necrons get to re-roll their WBB rolls even if they
are no longer within 6" of a Necron model of the
same type? "
See that? The downed model are still part of the unit.
You have...wishful thinking and bad logic.

[BuFFo]

I agree with Talos.

For me, "normal" refers to everything in the basic rule book, as all the rules presented in the basic rule books are universal, normal rules everyone plays by.

Rules that specifically target downed Necron model markers are not "normal" and are special rules which override the rule for downed necron models.

1) Necrons die in combat, 5 models lay down.

2) Necrons lose combat and are swept. Sweeping Advance kills the entire unit. The rule for downed models specifically ignores Sweeping Advance as it is a normal rule and not a special rule which specifically targets the downed markers.

Thats how I read it as...

But....

Sweeping Advance is one of the rare "normal" rules which also specifically says that it ignores SPECIAL RULES. So unless a special rule found in a codex specifically says it ignores Sweeping Advance's ability to ignore the special rule, the special rule itself is ignored.

So even though I agree with Talos with his logic, in the end Sweeping Advance ignores any Special Rules anyway.

So the way I read it, and in my opinion (not fact) Necron Debris markers are removed along with the rest of the unit.

[MaxKool]

Which changes are you thinking of?

I take issue with basically all of these points.
1) It did not have wording for WBB 'in addition' to special rules, it had a parenthetical mention of WBB as an example of special rules that are ignored.
2) See 1). It was an example, not a specific call out that prevented WBB before and now doesn't. The rules themselves are enough to prevent WBB.
3)Necron jetbikes have the T bonus included permanently in their profile - you already have a better version of bikes, otherwise Destroyer lords would be T5(6) and Destroyers would be T4(5).
4)This is only true in cases of identically named rules with contradictory text. The true rule of thumb in reading rules is specific overrides general.
5)The main rules still disallow WBB from a SA just from the way it is worded.


.

Ok and I take no issue with what u say, cause Im not getting worked up about somthing that is clearly VERY devided and has been since 5th came out. Its not gonna change untill we get a new codex, no matter what you or I say.

1) They dropped the example out, who are you to say why? Your word is as good as the next guy
2) The rules are obviosly not enuf, becuase fully half of the people in these threads have opposite ideas. Dosnt seem to clear 2 me
3) Our Destroyers ARE NOT WARRIORS!, they are immortals on a jet bike.. Meaning they should be T5(6)
Our lord has specific wording outside of profile (wich is an old oddity) But regardless, gets the + toughness from his base model
4) Ive never heard GW say specific out rules general. I have plenty of general rules in my Templar codex and they are not trumped by the rulebook. Its always been Codex>rulebook since the begining...
The 2 terms are not the same, and depending on what rule and what u wanna say is specific or general.. It gets all muddy. Either codex alwasys trumps or somtimes? That just makes it get even more confusing...
5) If our book has writing inconsitancies due to age, Why does no one try and force other changes on it where applicable. Not making any specific refereance.


What im trying to do is make this a more general arguement and comparing it to other instances that the rule of had these issues in order to have something to compare it to. No rules discussion should be in a vacum. U need some referance....

U wanna see a book with inconsistancies... Read the 6th ed Skaven, the 8th Skaven and the faq and count the inconsitancies with the BRB... even with a 9 page faq there are STILL issues. I feel like cheating when i use my skaven.... cause some stuff is so broken ...


Either way, I normaly offer stubborn as well as a compromise for me or the other 2 necron players in our local group(ya we have 3 current cron players still)

[Defenestratus]

I've played all up and down the east coast at tons of shops and tournaments.... I've NEVER seen it played like Talos is describing.

Simply because a necron is down doesn't mean that he's left his unit. In fact, he doesn't join a nearby unit until he passes his WBB - and in the case of a SA, the WBB can never be taken.

[Dyrnwyn]

They dropped the example out, who are you to say why? Your word is as good as the next guy
Looks like language cleaning to me. They also replaced the ambiguous 'save' with 'rescue.'


2) The rules are obviosly not enuf, becuase fully half of the people in these threads have opposite ideas. Dosnt seem to clear 2 me
If you read the rules, the answer is there. It's not longer as cut and dry because of the removal of the example, but it is still there, if you read all the rules involved and parse thier effects. As has been pointed out. Frankly, the fact that people disagree is not surprising - it's one more nerf on top of the pile that 5th ed has already heaped upon the Necron army - people would like to seize on any ambiguous rules to help them out.


3) Our Destroyers ARE NOT WARRIORS!, they are immortals on a jet bike.. Meaning they should be T5(6)
Our lord has specific wording outside of profile (wich is an old oddity) But regardless, gets the + toughness from his base model
*shrug* Fair enough, but they aren't.


4) Ive never heard GW say specific out rules general. I have plenty of general rules in my Templar codex and they are not trumped by the rulebook. Its always been Codex>rulebook since the begining... The 2 terms are not the same, and depending on what rule and what u wanna say is specific or general.. It gets all muddy. Either codex alwasys trumps or somtimes? That just makes it get even more confusing...

Firstly, specific v. general is how systems of rules function. GW doesn't need to say it, it's how rules work. If you don't apply specific v. general, then the rules are a nonsensical mess. I have a rule that tells me vehicles move 12". I have another rule which tells me Fast Skimmers can move 24" If specific doesn't override general, then Fast Skimmers move 12", as they are still vehicles. I have a rule which tells me models can fire one gun per turn. I have another which tells me this model can fire two. Specific > general. If your only guideline is codex trumps rulebook, then how do you resolve codex v. codex? Rulebook v. rulebook?

You HAVE to apply specific v. general. If you don't apply it then I'll be taking carnifex regeneration and Inquisition bionics against C'tan wounds, and invulnerable saves vs. your phase blades. I'll have to insist that all your units with wounds move 6" a turn and all your vehicles move no more than 12." I must insist on your Jetbikes taking difficult and dangerous terrain tests whenever moving through terrain. The rules break down without specific beating general. Can you find me a quote which states codex > rulebook that isn't referring to differently worded rules? One which states that codex > rulebook in all instances of any kind? Because both instances of referring to the Codex mention that it is only applied in the case of identically named rules and/or contradiction with the rulebook.

Codex doesn't always trump rulebook. It's often true because the codex usually contains the specific exceptions to the main rules, but in this case, Sweeping Advance specifically ignores special rules.


5) If our book has writing inconsitancies due to age, Why does no one try and force other changes on it where applicable. Not making any specific refereance.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're referring to the lack of fixes for the codex, GW doesn't 'patch' old codecies - they just let armies sit until they get round to releasing a new codex. The original Tau codex sat for quite a while with Shield Drones that were useless. GW didn't fix it til the release of the new codex. That's just how GW rolls.

If you're referring to other rules which have changed in application, The Monolith's Deep Strike protection has changed, the Chronometron no longer actually does anything significant, and Gauss weapons can no longer destroy vehicles through glancing. Things do in fact change.



What im trying to do is make this a more general arguement and comparing it to other instances that the rule of had these issues in order to have something to compare it to. No rules discussion should be in a vacum. U need some referance....
First off - a rules argument should primarily focus on the rules themselves - that way one can determine what the rules themselves actually say to do. Moreover they are the resource that everyone can reference when at the table. In the event that what the rules say to do is nonsensical, contradictory, or still unclear, then you can move on to checking intent and precedence.

[DarkLink]

@gir if you read the Codex WBB rule I have posted, it is saying that dead necrons are completely ignored for all normal game purposes.

Yeah... here's why my copy of the codex says:
"Destroyed Necrons ignore the normal coherency rules and cannot be attacked in any way-"

So, destroyed Necrons don't have to remain within 2" of other models in their unit (note that this has nothing to do with whether or not they're in a unit at all), and cannot be attacked in any way (which, once again, has nothing to do with being in a unit).

You're going to have to find your justification for destroyed necrons not being in a unit somewhere else.



So, basically, you're misrepresenting the rules. Necrons are not ignored for "all normal gaming purposes". They are ignored for two very specific gaming purposes (coherency and attacking).

[Dyrnwyn]

Yeah... here's why my copy of the codex says:
"Destroyed Necrons ignore the normal coherency rules and cannot be attacked in any way-"
Already addressed - the above wording is from the first printing of the codex - the second printing uses the wording:

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only."


You're going to have to find your justification for destroyed necrons not being in a unit somewhere else.
This is still true however. Though for other reasons.

[talos]

I just made a call to GW to ask about this and guess what... I am right. Dead Necrons awaiting WBB "are not affected by anything and can roll for WBB as long as there is another unit within 6" " (his words exactly).

I know some of you won't believe so plz check for yourselves...

[DarkLink]

GW reps have never been consistent about how they answer rules question. You can call them up three different times and get five different answers. Unless it comes out in an FAQ/Errata, I doubt anyone will care what a single random GW employee answered, as I find very few people take email/phone questions seriously.


Not that I necessarily disagree with the answer, but neither GW reps nor tournament organizers (especially not tournament organizers) are credible rules sources.


And while it seems I have an non-updated necron dex, it does seem to me that destroyed necrons may not be part of the unit. The WBB in my copy simply states that when Necrons self-repair, they join up with the nearest like unit, which is not necessarily the same unit they started in. Does the newer wording support that, too?

[BuFFo]

If I played Necrons, I have ZERO problems with the fallen models counting as 'out of game', and not subject to Sweeping Advance, since it seems the models are treated as their own 'collection' of markers rather than a part of an existing unit in play.

[talos]

The 2nd wording clarifies that normal game conditions do not affect dead necrons whatsoever. It was changed according to the 1st faq that said dead necrons are just markers for wbb rolls . Otherwise the rule remains the same.

Concerning how I play this rule, this is the standard way we play it in my city. During tournaments when it came up, every judge ruled like this. I really was surprised that some people were suggesting otherwise, and to be honest after BuFFo's 1st comment I started doubting myself, that's why I called. Now for me, after the call, case is closed. Some may still doubt, so they can call themselves...

[SeattleDV8]

This rule is nothing new, It was VERY clear in 4th ed. that WWB didn't work against SA.
The 4th ed. rule reads: "The destroyed unit(s) is immediately removed. No invulnerable save or other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll Be Back special rule) can save the unit at this stage;..."

5th Ed reads: "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage,..."

The only difference is WWB is quoted as an example , 5th didn't bother.
The basic rule is unchanged.
Sadly many people think that because the example was removed we somehow treat the same rule different.

[DarkLink]

And frankly "ignored for normal purposes" is an extremely vauge statement. Nowhere is "normal purposes" defined, explicitly or implicitly. That makes it a rather flimsy defense in and of itself. You'd need justification from somewhere else that the destroyed necrons are no longer part of the same unit. Without that justification, the rule is unclear one way or another.

[talos]

Well GW staff was very direct in his response, so I think this issue has came up many times before and he seemed to have answered before I finished the question. No qualms, no "errrr...", no "let me think" etc He just popped it out. So I think they have thought it through...

[SeattleDV8]

A local GW staff has no standing in a rules debate, it's just his opinion.
GW staff are there to sell product, they have no training in the rules.

WWB is a special rule.
WWB does not mention SA.
Therefore WWB can't save the unit from SA, downed or not.

[talos]

Firstly it wasn't any local GW staff. I called customer service in England. Yep, that's how frustated I got.
Secondly as I said he was very firm/direct about his answer.
Thirdly do you really expect me to believe the opinion of a stranger from the other side of the planet instead of a formal reply from GW?
Lastly why don't you do an experiment. Call 4-5 times the customer service and record the answers using your mobile, then upload it for all of us to listen. Surely if 5/5 times they give you the same answer then it would be no coincidence...

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure I could give you a bunch of examples of people who were extremely confident about their answer to a question, and were completely wrong. That could devolve very quickly, though...


If you want to prove to me that GW customer service consistantly gives the same answer on this issue, go ahead. But I have more important things to waste time on;). And since your argument relies on that evidence, the burden of proof is on you.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes ,Yes... He was very firm....and then he when back to packing minis for shipping.
LOL

[Dyrnwyn]

Calls to GW are pretty useless in a debate such as this one. They aren't a common reference like rulebooks and FAQs that anyone can see and check for themselves, and given the nature of the responses in the past are unreliable at best.

[Maelstorm]

If your have 2 units (A and B) of 10 Necron models 3" apart.
Unit A gets shot by a squad of Terminators from 5" away, 5 go down from Storm Bolter fire
Unit A is then assaulted by the same Terminators; loses by 1 and flees 6" away.
The Terminators consolidate and move 2" inches away.
The Unit A Necrons that went down to Storm Bolter fire all make there WBB rolls.
The Unit A Necrons who made there WBB rolls must now join Unit B (now 15 models) per the Codex because they are closer.

The 5 piles of debris that were originally in Unit A are now in Unit B, even though Unit A still exists, Unit B just happens to be closer. They are no longer part of any unit when they are on the ground and are "completely ignored for all game purposes".

I've carefully read everything everyone has put into this thread. As a follow-up I called GW headquarters and spoke with them as well and they agree.

As campaign organizer and rules judge, I would allow the WBB roll for models downed before the sweeping advance if there is a like model within 6" or a Tomb Spyder within 12" and another like unit anywhere on the table. Upright Necron models caught in the sweeping advance are removed.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to write their opinion on the issue, I appreciate your input.

[SeattleDV8]

If your have 2 units (A and B) of 10 Necron models 3" apart.
Unit A gets shot by a squad of Terminators from 5" away, 5 go down from Storm Bolter fire
Unit A is then assaulted by the same Terminators; loses by 1 and flees 6" away.
The Terminators consolidate and move 2" inches away.
The Unit A Necrons that went down to Storm Bolter fire all make there WBB rolls.
The Unit A Necrons who made there WBB rolls must now join Unit B (now 15 models) per the Codex because they are closer.
Sigh.
First your example is 100% correct, but the debate is on how SW and WWB interacts.
Terminators can NEVER Sweeping Advance and has no bearing on the debate.


The 5 piles of debris that were originally in Unit A are now in Unit B, even though Unit A still exists, Unit B just happens to be closer. They are no longer part of any unit when they are on the ground and are "completely ignored for all game purposes".
Except where it does,heh.
The downed models are still part of the parent unit when teleporting though the Monolith.
The downed models move with the parent unit if they Fall Back.
Sweeping Advance ignores all special rules but somehow WWB is 'more' special??


I've carefully read everything everyone has put into this thread. As a follow-up I called GW headquarters and spoke with them as well and they agree.
Agree with what? Which 'headquarters'? GW in England, Memphis or your local game shop?



As campaign organizer and rules judge, I would allow the WBB roll for models downed before the sweeping advance if there is a like model within 6" or a Tomb Spyder within 12" and another like unit anywhere on the table.
You do know that SA happens at the end of the assault phase and WWB happens at the start of the Necron's turn?

Upright Necron models caught in the sweeping advance are removed.
As a TO/judge you have the right to run your event however you like.
Just be clear before hand on how you intend to run rules that fall into the grey area.


Thank you to everyone who took the time to write their opinion on the issue, I appreciate your input.
Your welcome

[Maelstorm]

Your example uses the Monoliths WBB rules - which will not occur until AFTER the standard WBB from any like model within 6" or Tomb spyder within 12" and another like model anywhere on the field. The like model and Tomb Spyder check are made first - The Monolith WBB can only be made if one of the other two can be attempted.

1. Models go down from Bolter fire - they are henceforth "ignored for ALL game purposes" (my emphasis)
2. Sweeping Advance occurs to the remaining models, they are removed.
3. Turn ends.
4. Check for Like Models within 6", if true then WBB roll is made, they join that unit. If false check step 5.
5. Check for Tomb Spyder within 12" and like model anywhere on the board, if true then WBB roll is made, they join that unit. If false move to step 6.
6. If steps 4 and 5 are false, the models are removed.
7. If steps 4 or 5 are true, only then can you attempt another WBB using the extra Monolith rules.

When switching from 4th edition to 5th edition the specific WBB reference was removed from Sweeping advance for a reason - it no longer applies.

I spoke with GW headquarters in England. I have also spoken with GW Headquarters here in the States. I did not ask my local redshirts - they mean well but tend to be all over the map.

Again, I appreciate your input. I will appriase the campaign and tournament players of the ruling before the game.

[talos]

The downed models are still part of the parent unit when teleporting though the Monolith.
The downed models move with the parent unit if they Fall Back.
Sweeping Advance ignores all special rules but somehow WWB is 'more' special??

The monolith's rule specifically mentions damaged necrons, so it cannot be considered "normal gaming purposes". And as maelstorm said, it comes into play after the damaged necrons have attached themselves to a unit and attemped a WBB but failed.
The faq you mention considers damaged necrons as casualties, so they must be ignored as any other casualties of any other army. And as the previous faq said dead necrons remain on the table as markers for WBB and nothing else
Sweeping advance prohibits necrons to WBB if they get caught. Damaged models are ignored because at the time of the sweep they are already casualties.

And already 2 people contacted GW in England for this,got the same answer, and you still continue to ignore even that. You can play the game as you wish, but as GW meant to be played, damaged necrons are elligible for WBB even after their initial unit got sweeped.

[SeattleDV8]

Your example uses the Monoliths WBB rules - which will not occur until AFTER the standard WBB from any like model within 6" or Tomb spyder within 12" and another like model anywhere on the field. The like model and Tomb Spyder check are made first - The Monolith WBB can only be made if one of the other two can be attempted.

1. Models go down from Bolter fire - they are henceforth "ignored for ALL game purposes" (my emphasis)
2. Sweeping Advance occurs to the remaining models, they are removed.
NO, SA removes the UNIT.
Not the models, the unit.



When switching from 4th edition to 5th edition the specific WBB reference was removed from Sweeping advance for a reason - it no longer applies.
Sorry, but that is total bull****.
The rule is unchanged, only an example is removed.

The problem with calling GW is A) we don't know what the question you asked them and B) we have to take your word for how they answered.
There is nothing in the rule books or FAQ's that back up your point.
Only second hand answers that you cannot prove.

[Dyrnwyn]

The monolith's rule specifically mentions damaged necrons, so it cannot be considered "normal gaming purposes".
:rolleyes: Despite the Sweep ignoring any rules which would rescue the unit, of which WBB is both rescuing the unit, and is a special rule. Sweep ignores the WBB rule in it's entirety. including the section which states that downed models are ignored.


And as maelstorm said, it comes into play after the damaged necrons have attached themselves to a unit and attemped a WBB but failed.
That is not the order of operations with which WBB works on.

WBB tells us the models go down, and ignore coherency with thier unit. WBB tells us that if they succeed on a WBB check, they join the nearest unit. If they fail they are removed. Until a Necron passes a WBB check, they remain joined to their original unit. We know this because the Monolith targets units, and has no special text saying that it takes downed Necrons that came from that unit. It just pulls the unit, and any models in it may re-roll their checks. Furthermore, downed models fall back "with the unit." This is before any WBB checks are made - their unit associations remain. If you deny that the unit associations remain, then the Monolith's WBB re-roll does not function The Monolith doesn't say that it teleports a unit and downed necrons that originally came from it, it doesn't teleport a unit and any downed Necrons in 6", it teleports a unit. Just a unit. There's no special text letting it grab additional models like you imply it does to allow it to affect downed Necrons.


The faq you mention considers damaged necrons as casualties, so they must be ignored as any other casualties of any other army. And as the previous faq said dead necrons remain on the table as markers for WBB and nothing else
You don't get to cherry pick. If previous editions FAQs matter, previous editions rules matter, and WBB is out as per the 4th ed example text.


Sweeping advance prohibits necrons to WBB if they get caught. Damaged models are ignored because at the time of the sweep they are already casualties.
Yes, but the Sweep demands two actions - destroy the unit, then remove it. Neither function can be prevented by special rules. If you leave downed models, you are not removing the unit, as until those models pass or fail a WBB, they are still part of their parent unit. In order to remove the unit, you are required to remove the downed models as well.


And already 2 people contacted GW in England for this,got the same answer, and you still continue to ignore even that.
Firstly, GW's answer department has historically been wildly unreliable in the answers they can give. Two answers is statistically nothing compared to their previous track record. Perhaps they have changed. I'll get in touch with them myself sometime in the coming week and see.

Secondly, calls to GW are fine for your own piece of mind, but this is the internet - I could claim I'm Gav Thorpe, but that doesn't make it true. Debate the rules on their own merits using resources everyone can reference, the codex, the rulebook, FAQs. If you can scan/link to designer notes or other materials which can become common references, awesome. But for all I know, you are just claiming that you called them. I choose to disregard evidence that cannot be verified.


You can play the game as you wish, but as GW meant to be played, damaged necrons are elligible for WBB even after their initial unit got sweeped.
I find your evidence towards that conclusion vastly outweighed by the evidence towards the opposite conclusion. Furthermore, evidence of intent has not been put forward anywhere in this thread, to one side or the other.


Your example uses the Monoliths WBB rules] - which will not occur until AFTER the standard WBB from any like model within 6" or Tomb spyder within 12" and another like model anywhere on the field. The like model and Tomb Spyder check are made first - The Monolith WBB can only be made if one of the other two can be attempted.
WBB does not reset unit affiliation until the models succeed on their check. The Monolith has no special WBB rules. It just grants the unit that teleports through it the opportunity to re-roll their WBB checks. If the downed models have no unit affiliation, then how does the Monolith teleport them? It only targets targets a unit, not a unit and nearby downed models.


1. Models go down from Bolter fire - they are henceforth "ignored for ALL game purposes" (my emphasis)
2. Sweeping Advance occurs to the remaining models, they are removed.
Sweeping Advance 1)Ignores special rules which would rescue the unit. 2)Removes the entire unit. the downed Necrons are no longer ignored, and are removed along with the rest of the unit.


3. Turn ends.
4. Check for Like Models within 6", if true then WBB roll is made, they join that unit. If false check step 5.
5. Check for Tomb Spyder within 12" and like model anywhere on the board, if true then WBB roll is made, they join that unit. If false move to step 6.
6. If steps 4 and 5 are false, the models are removed.
7. If steps 4 or 5 are true, only then can you attempt another WBB using the extra Monolith rules.
The fact that the Monolith can allow a re-roll isn't the issue - it's that it can only transport, and therefore grant that re-roll if the downed Necrons are still part of their original unit despite being down. If downed Necrons are still part of thier unit, then you are leaving models in the unit on the table during the Sweep and rescuing part of the unit due to a special rule. Something Sweeping Advance specifically forbids unless the special rule in question mentions Sweeping Advance, which WBB does not.

The alternative is that downed Necrons have no unit affiliation, and therefore cannot be teleported, as the Monolith teleports units, not units and nearby downed Necrons, just units. The re-roll to WBB can then never occur.


When switching from 4th edition to 5th edition the specific WBB reference was removed from Sweeping advance for a reason - it no longer applies.
Or they were cleaning up language to not reference codexes. Or they were anticipating WBB being renamed in the next version of the Necron codex. Or removed and replaced with Feel No Pain. No evidence has been put forward as to the reasons for the change. Furthermore, the removal of a parenthetical example does not change the rule itself. Parenthesis are interjections which are not important to the main text - the 4th ed rule is functionally "No invulnerable save or special rule may save the unit at this point." Which is practically identical to 5th's "No save or other special rule may rescue the unit at this stage"


Again, I appreciate your input. I will appriase the campaign and tournament players of the ruling before the game.
Again, if you want to rule this way in favor of Necron players to help them out, no problem - I would likely implement a more overall house rule rather than this minor fix, but would try to help the old codex myself. But be aware that this isn't what the rules say.

[talos]

The WBB rule says dead necrons are ignored COMPLETELY for ALL normal game purposes. And COMPLETELY and ALL are specific and emphasised enough to cancel any other rule that doesn't mention WBB specifically. Sweeping advance outrules bionics, inv saves and such. It also denies WBB of alive necrons because they are not ignored during the sweep.

Codex say so, rules say so, logic says so, GW says so.

[Dyrnwyn]

The WBB rule says dead necrons are ignored COMPLETELY for ALL normal game purposes. And COMPLETELY and ALL are specific and emphasised enough to cancel any other rule that doesn't mention WBB specifically. Sweeping advance outrules bionics, inv saves and such. It also denies WBB of alive necrons because they are not ignored during the sweep.

Codex say so, rules say so, logic says so, GW says so.

You keep leaning on this interpretation.
1)WBB is a special rule.
2)Sweeping Advance ignores special rules which would allow the unit to remain unless they specifically mention Sweeping Advance.
3)If WBB is followed it would allow the unit to remain.
4)WBB does not mention Sweeping Advance.
5)Therefore, WBB is a special rule which is ignored by Sweeping Advance.
6)Where are you told downed Necrons are ignored? In WBB. Which Sweeping Advance disregards.

End conclusion: Sweeping advance ignores ALL of WBB, including the bit about downed models being ignored for normal game purposes. The ENTIRE unit must be removed, which includes the downed models.

[talos]

it mentions "ignored completely for all normal gaming purposes". That is in the codex which overrules the BRB whenever it has to. But again, even if GW's answers don't convince you, then nothing will. So what's the point really?

[Dyrnwyn]

it mentions "ignored completely for all normal gaming purposes". That is in the codex which overrules the BRB whenever it has to. But again, even if GW's answers don't convince you, then nothing will. So what's the point really?
Already pointed out that it's specific > general, not codex > rulebook. I challenged you to provide me with a quote which posits that codex supercedes rulebook in all circumstances. You could not, because that is not a rule. Besides, you contradict yourself - if codex overrules rulebook in all instances, Inquisition bionics and the like should also bypass Sweeping Advance.

We have a general rule on model wounding and death. WBB is a special rule on how to handle Necron death in particular. Sweeping Advance specifically ignores any and all special rules which would prevent the unit's complete destruction unless those rules specifically call out Sweeping Advance. Sweeping Advance is more specific in it's intent than WBB.

When GW provides an FAQ which clearly states that previously downed Necrons are immune to WBB, or that they no longer have unit associations, I will accept that. If you can provide a published official interview with codex designers that posits that this is how they intended Necrons to operate in 5th, I will accept that. I won't accept someone I do not know or personally trust to tell me that 'Naw, I totally called GW and they agree with me, not you.'

[talos]

..................

Nah. Not woth it.

Maelstorm who asked got his answer, and I believe anyone else who does take the time to read this thread will come to the same conclusion.

[Maelstorm]

Thank you to everyone who posted to this thread. I have made my decision and will stand by it. I will not be comparing it to a *.pdf codex (Grey Knights Bionics) when determining the ruling.

For the Campaign and Tournament downed Necrons will get a WBB roll if they meet the criteia set forth in the Necron Codex.

Again, a sincere thank you for everyones input both for and against in the issue. I appreiciate the time eveyone took to add their thoughts to the thread.

[Dyrnwyn]

Thank you to everyone who posted to this thread. I have made my decision and will stand by it. I will not be comparing it to a *.pdf codex (Grey Knights Bionics) when determining the ruling.
Well, I hope you extend the same courtesy to Inquisition players' bionics then - seeing as lots of folk do have the print versions of those codexes which are from the same edition as the Necron codex. Daemon and Witchhunters have bionics that function like WBB.

[Maelstorm]

You have my sincere promise that I will investigate it if asked. There may be 1 Demon player at the Tournament...

Thank you again for your assistance.

[Tynskel]

Bionics: Bionics allow a character who has suffered a crippling injury to return to service. To represent this, if a model with bionics is killed, instead of removing it, place the model on its side. Roll a D6 at the start of the next turn: on a roll of a 6 model is stood back up with 1 wound, but on any other roll it is removed as a casualty.

[talos]

If the rule doesn't say that the model is to be ignored completely for all game purposes, then it is removed normally after the sweep.

[Paintraina]

I came in Undecided. I have 3000 pts of Necrons.

I left on Drynwyn's side.

Sweeping advance ignores special rules.
WBB is a special rule.

Pretty obvious.

Not to mention that Drynwyn actually uses logic and the book to make his arguments rather than some chuckle head on the phone "Yeah, yeah necrons work just like you said. How many boxes did you say you wanted to buy again?"

[talos]

Yeah sure, the opinion of an unknown guy, in an unkonown place, has more value than an employee apointed by GW in England to answer questions about rules. I am most convinced.

[SeattleDV8]

Yeah sure, the opinion of an unknown guy, in an unkonown place, has more value than an employee apointed by GW in England to answer questions about rules. I am most convinced.

You do know that generally the 'Ules Boys, as they were once known as , were shipping clerks with no rules training.
GW did for a short while did have one person answering e-mails and rules questions.
He had been trained and also was able to talk with the design teams.
GW removed the position after about 6-9 months and so we are back to untrained 'ules Boys.

The 'Unknown' guy has used the BRB,FAQ's and Codex to make his point.
You have a mystery phone call and wishful thinking.

[Dyrnwyn]

Yeah sure, the opinion of an unknown guy, in an unkonown place, has more value than an employee apointed by GW in England to answer questions about rules. I am most convinced.

Don't condescend to him. To me, and also, to him, the logical arguments of an unknown person, using reference-able sources have more weight than an unknown person's claim that he has contacted GW, asked a question of unknown phrasing, and gotten someone who happened to agree with him that day, none of which can be confirmed independently.

[talos]

Why do you think this makes you make a better 'ules Boy than those in GW?
Do you know ALL the Ules Boys in GW in England?
Do you care to call 100 times to see if any of them answer otherwise?

This has proved a stalemate and the only way for me to be sure and know that I play it right, was to call GW. Sorry that GW's answer didn't match yours, but I think that ego is what continues this conversation and not neutral judgement.

@Dyrwyn Why don't you make the call? Scared that you will be proved wrong? I didn't care, I just wanted to play the game right, so I DID call.
As i said before call 5-10times and record them with your mobile. Then let us listen to all those answers.

[Dyrnwyn]

Why do you think this makes you make a better 'ules Boy than those in GW?
Do you know ALL the Ules Boys in GW in England?
Do you care to call 100 times to see if any of them answer otherwise?

This has proved a stalemate and the only way for me to be sure and know that I play it right, was to call GW. Sorry that GW's answer didn't match yours, but I think that ego is what continues this conversation and not neutral judgement.

@Dyrwyn Why don't you make the call? Scared that you will be proved wrong? I didn't care, I just wanted to play the game right, so I DID call.
As i said before call 5-10times and record them with your mobile. Then let us listen to all those answers.
Historically, I have seen Roolz Boyz come down on both sides of multiple debates - including this one, which I have seen several times since the release of 5th ed. Also, seeing as we know their reputation, and half of your argument hinges on them agreeing with you, the burden of proof is on you - and frankly, I would hesitate to accept recorded phone calls. It's not ego, just skepticism borne of experience. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

I've already said I will try and get around to making the call, but seeing as I work full time, have other hobbies, a rapidly approaching wedding to plan and arrange, and other personal obligations, forgive me if I put 'Calling GW to win an internet argument' at the very bottom of my priority list.

[Paintraina]

Just called them mate. They said that the squad is wiped out.

[talos]

You called GW in Britain? At this time? And they answered? Really? Do you even know what time is it there? Can you count to 10 (ten)?

[SeattleDV8]

Ah,irony.

[Dyrnwyn]

You called GW in Britain? At this time? And they answered? Really? Do you even know what time is it there? Can you count to 10 (ten)?

Hello pot, have I introduced you to the kettle?

[FastEd]

Could he not have called GW US? Since it's the official ruling both lines should give the same answer, no?

Also, you would be surprised how late you can get somebody on the phone at GW UK. They should have no GMT offset which puts his call in at just before 10 PM. Really not that late when it comes down to it, especially with the hours the game industry tends to keep.


Hello pot, have I introduced you to the kettle?
Also, this.


Long story short, Necrons need a new codex, and GW frequently fails at supporting their own products.

[talos]

Contact Us

* Print
* Email to a Friend
* View as a single page

By Phone

For all your Customer Service enquiries call: +44 (0)115 91 40000

Customer Service opening hours:

* Monday to Saturday - 10:00am to 6:00pm
* Sunday - closed

I don't know if GW in US answers questions about rules, but the discussion was about GW in Britain (which is the most creditable source) giving a certain answer.

And I agree that Necrons need urgently a new codex. This thread proves it 1000%.

[Paintraina]

Of course I didn't call. I was merely pointing out the ridiculousness of your argument hinging on us believing that you called twice, asked a nonleading question, and got an answer that you thought would convince anyone.

[talos]

.................................................. ........................................