Wolf Guards, Packs & special guns

[Legoklods]

Do I understand the rules for Wolf Guards right in the sense that you CANNOT take 9 grey hunters + one wolf guard AND take 2 special weapons?
I think one of the two players in the latest BOLS battle report fielded such a unit or two... and that's what leads me to asking you guys...

[phoenix01]

The rule is that Grey Hunters must have ten Grey Hunters in the squad to get the second special weapon (Blood Claws is fifteen Blood Claws in the squad to get the second special weapon). The Wolf Guard is an additional model kind of how a Commissar is handled. That second special weapon is free too (no fair on the first one being a flamer at 5-points and taking a normally 15-point plasma gun as your second for free). Wolf Guard cannot take meltaguns, plasma guns, or flamers (but can take combi weapons). So, at nine in the squad plus one Wolf Guard the answer is no, only one special weapon.

[Lerra]

The guy in the battle report was probably running one special weapon and one combi-weapon on the wolf guard.

[Weafwolf]

The guy in the battle report was probably running one special weapon and one combi-weapon on the wolf guard.

If it's the report I think he means, the question came up in the comments section, and that's exactly what he did. The WG had a plasma pistol, but the speaker said something about having "two plasma."

In addition, I imagine you could take ten GH PLUS a WG as long as you're willing to foot slog. In that case, you could still get the two special weapons plus whatever the WG brings. I'd have to double check that, but I'm pretty sure the WG doesn't replace a GH; he just adds to the squad.

[lowdog]

That second special weapon is free too (no fair on the first one being a flamer at 5-points and taking a normally 15-point plasma gun as your second for free).

I don't see what's unfair about taking the flamer as your first weapon and the plasma as your second free weapon. Nothing in the rules says you can't do it this way.

[Tynskel]

I don't see what's unfair about taking the flamer as your first weapon and the plasma as your second free weapon. Nothing in the rules says you can't do it this way.

it is just a way of whining about how the '15 point gun is free'

[lowdog]

it is just a way of whining about how the '15 point gun is free'

My counter to that beef (as much as those saying it are willing to listen to a reasoned response) is that the gun isn't "free", it just doesn't cost points. You do still have to pay for it by giving up two options

1) the ability to take a Wolf Guard or IC to up squad Leadership/assault capability and still embark a rhino or drop pod.

2) the ability to spam the melta or plasma gun. In this way the designers are kinda rewarding you for taking the tactically flexible option of one flamer and one melta/plasma

Those are two pretty significant opportunity costs.

[BlindGunn]

I don't see what's unfair about taking the flamer as your first weapon and the plasma as your second free weapon. Nothing in the rules says you can't do it this way.
Perhaps it doesn't say anythig in the rules, but as a Wolf player myself, I was shocked when I first heard of it being done.

However, I don't do large tournaments so I don't find the atmosphere of competitiveness that some of you do. These sort of things seem to go on with a lot of the "Big Tourney" lists. My more "friendly" games, it was just something I never considered!

The fact is, if I were to go for two special weapons, I normally would go for 2 of the same type anyway. My "Tank Hunters" have 2 Meltas, my Plasma squad has 2 Plasmas, my flamers - you guessed it! I don't find mixing Flamers with the other 2 that helpful. Mixing Plasma and Melta might be fine, but not the flamer - it's purpose is too specific and contrary to melta and I'd rather get 4 plasma shots killing marines than a flamer...

[blackarmchair]

I was sure that little trick was going to get FAQ'd immediately; but it never did.

I always thought of it as an oversight but what lowdog is saying makes a lot of sense. The rule forces you to make a choice between spamming, Wolf Guard and low cost. I think the general concensus among wolves players has been to take a WG with combi-weapon.

I do find it a bit humerous that the folks at GW thought they were forcing us to make "difficult tactical decisions" when it comes to Grey Hunters though. No matter what flavor you choose they're still Grey Hunters and they're still FAR better than standard marines for lower cost. Upgrade to Counter-Attack, Acute senses and +1 attack? Costs -1 point.

Funny stuff.

[Sam]

I was sure that little trick was going to get FAQ'd immediately; but it never did.

I always thought of it as an oversight but what lowdog is saying makes a lot of sense. The rule forces you to make a choice between spamming, Wolf Guard and low cost. I think the general concensus among wolves players has been to take a WG with combi-weapon.

I do find it a bit humerous that the folks at GW thought they were forcing us to make "difficult tactical decisions" when it comes to Grey Hunters though. No matter what flavor you choose they're still Grey Hunters and they're still FAR better than standard marines for lower cost. Upgrade to Counter-Attack, Acute senses and +1 attack? Costs -1 point.

Funny stuff.

To be fair, they gain Acute Sense, Counter Attack, and a CCW and lose Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, Sergeants (unless you attach a Wolf Guard to them, they are at -1 leadership compared to Tac Marines and their powerfists only have 1 attack), and the ability to take a heavy weapon.

Yeah, Grey Hunters are better than Tac Marines, but lets not make it sound like they get all these benefits and no drawbacks.

Edit: On an unrelated note, I thought I should point out that the flamer is free, even the first one you take. Also the plasma gun is only 10pts for Grey Hunters.

[MC Tic Tac]

Very first page of the Space Wolf Q+A:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620228a_Space_Wolves_Version_1_1.pdf

Q. Can a Grey Hunter unit that consists of nine Grey
Hunters and a Wolf Guard Pack Leader take a second
special weapon? (p26)
A. No, as the unit is not comprised of ten models until just
before the battle starts, at which point it is far too late to be
tinkering with your army list. This provides players who
wish to mount their Grey Hunters in a Rhino or Drop Pod