2K Salamander Army List - Opinions Welcome

[Animal21]

Just looking to get some advice from the more experienced players out there. This list is for tournament play, and is not intended to be fun for the opponent.

HQ-

Vulkan He'stan

Elite-

5 Assault Terminators
2 Lightning Claw
3 Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Land Raider Redeemer Dedicated Transport
Extra Armor
Mulit-melta

10 Sternguard Veterans
5 combi-plasma
5 combi-flamer
Rhino Dedicated Transport
Extra Armor

Troops-

10 Tactical Marines
Meltagun
Missile Launcher
Sergeant - combi-melta, Power Fist
Rhino Dedicated Transport
Extra Armor

10 Tactical Marines
Meltagun
Missile Launcher
Sergeant - combi-melta, Power Fist
Rhino Dedicated Transport
Extra Armor

Fast Attack-

Attack Bike
Multimelta

Attack bike
Multimelta

Heavy Support-

Vindicator

Vindicator

Vindicator


Playstyle: For objective missions, I like to combat squad the tac squads to give me 4 scoring choices. For kill points missions, I keep the tac squads together to avoid giving extra/easy killpoints. Vulkan rides with the termies in the Land Raider.

What d'you think?

[Connjurus]

This is just from my experience facing Vul'kan lists, but it looks to me like you don't have enough melta/flamers taking advantage of Vul'kan's rule, but I can see why.

I also think you should make that squad completely TH/SS. The TLCs don't really fit the list.

Also, why combi-plasma on the Sternguard rather than Combi-meltas?

[WereWolf_nr]

This is just from my experience facing Vul'kan lists, but it looks to me like you don't have enough melta/flamers taking advantage of Vul'kan's rule, but I can see why.

I also think you should make that squad completely TH/SS. The TLCs don't really fit the list.

Also, why combi-plasma on the Sternguard rather than Combi-meltas?

The loadout of the Sternguard should reflect the common enemies. Against MEQ I contend that the combi-flamers are the ones that should be replaced.

[Animal21]

I personally like the power weapon attacks being dealt at different iniitatives. Vulkan goes at I5, remove models, Lightning Claws go at I4, remove some models, and then finally hammers at I1, remove the rest(hopefully). It is extremely hard to pass up that master crafted hammer bonus, however. I also like to thin out some numbers swinging before my hammers swinging last.
As for the plasma instead of melta, this squad (in my mind) is my second hammer squad. My tac squads and Land Raider should have popped any transports I need popped. I'd like the vets to pop out and deal with termies/horde/MC I need to go away. For that purpose, I like 8 S7/AP2 shots vs. 4 S8/AP1 shots. Once again, like the hammers, it is hard to pass up twin-linked.
Thanks for the input, though!

[lowdog]

Another thing you could do with the Sternguard to take advantage of Vulkan's rule is to max out heavy flamers instead of some of those combi-flamers. I'd also consider dropping the squad size and putting them in a Razorback, then maybe grabbing an extra attack bike or landspeeder?

[dethangel]

i would go with 10 combi-meltas for the sternguard cuz nothing lives after a 10 melta blast. nothing...
i would lose 2 of the 3 rinos in favor of a thunderfire cannon. the long range support can be invaluable not to mention the bolster defence ability of the techmaine.
instead of extra armor take eather hunter seekers or siege shields for the vindcators

[eagleboy7259]

Drop Pod Dreadnought! Nothing screws up an enemy more than a Dread with Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon podding into melta range with the vulcan boon. I nearly always makes up its points and it either gets into assault the next turn or it forces the enemy to put a lot of fire onto on 130ish point vehicle. Just make sure you center the pod on the enemy vehcile so ur sure to land in 2D6 range. Oh and the Pod does a wonderful job of blocking LOS on the dread too.

[Splug]

I previously played a Vulkan list regularly. It did fairly well; the biggest problem I always ran into was killing infantry; the big stuff vaporized, I just couldn't get rid of the guys once they hit the table.

Psychic powers are extremely common in the newer armies, and just about every army has some form of hammer unit that relies on an invulnerable save to remain effective. You have a lot of strong-AP weapons in the army, as well as terminators. I strongly recommend taking a 100-point librarian with Null Zone and (insert random power here). The primary plan is to stick him in the Land Raider with Vulkan and friends, and never ever ever get out. There's room for one more dude in power armor there - may as well use it. Plan B is to give him gate as the second spell, and use him as fall-back transportation for the Vulkan squad if the LRR blows up.

I've found Vindicators to be very hit-or-miss. Single shot, not twin-linked, and to use them you need to move into range for rhino->melta retribution. They're not AP1, either. I certainly believe that if you're using them, go with 2-3 or you'll just soak shaken results until the gun falls off. You have Vulkan - use melta for short-range anti-tank, use your HS slots for long range shots. That said, it provides an AV13 wall for the rhinos... which is valuable in itself, but it could be done for less and with superior range. The only real place where vindicators will shine is when you get to drop the template on the survivors of an exploded vehicle. With the shortage of alternative anti-tank guns in the list, you're likely going to be spending those shots on popping the tanks instead.

Two scoring units at 2000 is risky, and 5-man units are rolling morale after two casualties. The heavy weapons team is most likely doing it on LD8 and without a protective transport, too. Running a third scoring squad will allow you to be more aggressive with all of them, and actually trade those meltas for some damage. Also, I'd suggest dropping the fists off the sergeants. You've kitted those squads to be 5-man suicide troops; a power fist will not save you from the angry angry terminators whose ride you destroyed.

As one option for potential changes, consider dropping the vindicators, replace them with 60-point autocannon predators. This becomes the mobile front for your rhino wall, and frees up 115 points. Drop the extra armor off the two tactical squad rhinos for another 30. Drop the P.Fists for another 50. Cut the sternguard down to 6 of one combi (all meltas, all flamers, all plasma - any of them makes sense, just plan a role for them from the start), then put them in a Razorback with a TL-heavy bolter, freeing up 140 points (keep the extra armor, these guys need to be able to retaliate). Total points shaved: 115+30+50+140 = 335.

Add a Librarian, with either Gate of Infinity and Null Zone or Avenger and Null Zone. No upgrades, 100 points.
Add a second tactical squad. Weapons are somewhat flexible, but flamer/c.flamer or melta/c.melta with either a ML or MM would be my recommendation. Give them a rhino, for a total of 215 points.

You'll have 20 points left over, with a few options. More Melta is the first thing you're probably looking for - autocannons are good for long ranged vs light-transport, as are the ML's. You'll kill light infantry with the 30-ish boltguns, heavy infantry with either the terminators or the sternguard. Your biggest concern will thus be heavy armor, and the answer to that is always melta - unless you have Vulkan, in which case it's MELTA+capslock. Look for a way to get more bikes - 12" move + 12" 2d6 range is longer than most things can assault, meaning your threat range is longer than your victim's.

These changes will add three kill points. One out of three missions, you'll have more firepower but at a higher risk, the other two you'll have more firepower... and more scoring / contesting units. And really, if the librarian dies... the terminators, vulkan, and the LRR are all probably gone. You were hurting anyway, and hopefully took someone with you. In addition to being a cheap AV13 wall, adding the vindicators gives your army another dimension to work in: you've increased your 48" AT ability by a factor of three, and actually have the option to play a long-range shootout against armies like DE wych cults, BA dread spam, or SW thundercav. This is always the way of the marine - if your opponent wants to shoot, charge him. If he wants to assault, make him walk through the fire to reach you. Playing all melta and vindicators cuts deeply into your ability to handle an assaulty army because you have to move forward to start the ball rolling.

Sorry for writing a book, I hope at least some of that makes sense and/or helps.

EDIT: OH - right! Go with at least 4 TH/SS terminators. Having the one LC dude for wound allocation is excellent; the first time you dump 3 rends on him and 8 armor saves on the hammer crew, you'll get at a bare minimum grumbling from your opponent - especially if you're working at I4 so he's already throwing his attacks. Remember that master crafted just says "reroll to hit" - not "reroll to hit against enemies with a weapon skill." Multiple assaulting an IG chimera wall with S8 is one of the fastest way to destroy 3+ tanks with one unit... ;)

[Animal21]

Splug:

Wow, bud! This is what I was looking for. You made me completely rethink segments of my army. I played this weekend with 3 Vindi/2 Baal armor 13 wall army and found the Vindi to be extremely scary to my opponents, but incredibly underwhelming. Its amazing how poorly I rolled for scatter. You bought up many valid points. Alot of my choices for squad loadouts are based on our current metagame in my area- i.e. a sergeant should always have a powerfist. But if the squad is a sacrificial 2 man melta, whats the point? Will I even live to initiative 1? My only question is, Heavy Bolter sponsons for the Preds or no? Giving them the sponsons, I will be forced to make the decision between sitting still to dakka or moving to keep up with my rhinos. But the extra volume of fire would be nice. And a Libby with Null Zone? Nothing drives your opponent(and Eldrad) crazier than Null Zone.

I've got a lot of thinking and Army Builder-ing to do! Thanks much Splug.

[Splug]

Glad I could help!

If you go with heavy bolter sponsons, you will have a hard time completely LOS-blocking the rhinos - however, you can give them cover very easily, and sometimes that's the best you're going to get anyway due to an elevated opponent. Two sponson-toting predators have the same width that three non-sponsoned predators have - along with a comparable points cost (though it's one less kill point on the table). There are armies where "Sit here and shoot" is the correct playstyle, and having the heavy bolters does contribute to that capability. Here's the real question though - what are you planning to shoot with at with them most of the early game? In your list, it's light transports at long range. Mid-game, they'll transition into an anti-infantry role, but that's at the same time your rhinos need to start mobilizing for objectives, or to melta-rush heavy tanks... so when the heavy bolters would be most useful is the same time you won't be able to use them. Now, if you hit an all-infantry army like tyranids or foot-eldar... you'll be kicking yourself for not taking the heavy bolters, because they'd be blasting away right up until the zoanthropes get there (and then turn to shoot the LR instead). I can really see going either way on the sponsons. I've found the 120-point autocannon/lascannon preds to be amazing for chewing through AV12 and lower, but that's a 60-point upgrade that re-introduces the problems of not fully blocking LOS and having weak mobility.

Ultimately - the best thing you can do is play around with army builder, asking yourself "what role does this unit fill? Do I already have too many things to fill that role, or is there a better way to do it?" Then take your army and deploy it on an empty table, see how many vehicles you can give cover / denied LoS, and which ones will be stationary / shooting versus moving / popping smoke. An AV13 wall is great, but an AV13 wall with cover is even better. After iterating with that a bit, get a list, and go play a few dozen games with it. After a month or so, evaluate what's lacking and what's overkill. Maybe make a couple small tweaks along the way if you see something obvious, but for the most part, ride it out and get a feel for the play style. A copy-pasta internet list will only take you about as far as the guy who wrote it. Find what you want to play, and work on mastering that.

[WereWolf_nr]

Splug, we should get you to write articles for BoLS. Or at least promote you to Chapter List Tweaker. Awesome list reviews and critiques. Thanks.