Blood Angels Predator list viable?

[WereWolf_nr]

I noticed that the Blood Angels can potentially have 6 predators on the field. I was wondering if anyone had experience making a predator heavy list and how it went. What would be the troops that one would bring with that list?

Something along the lines of:

3x Baal Predators (2x TL AC, 1x Flamestorm)
3x Predator (2x AC w/ LC sponsons, 1x w/ TL LC w/ LC sponsons)

2x Tac squads in Razorbacks

[Shadoq]

A local player here uses a blood angel predator list.
It is extremely nasty and has earned the local nickname of Bloodblower.

The list has won many tourneys here in the past year. It has gotten so bad that many people will refuse to even play pickup games against that player.

I believe it consists of:

Mephiston
2X Librarian Dreads
2 or 3X Assault Squads in Rhinos, 1 with a priest I believe
3X Baal Preds with TL Assault Cannon and heavy bolters
3X Preds with Autocannon and bolter

The thing of it is that the Preds can make a scout move and get setup for good shots very quickly. He plays aggressively and is usually in the other player's deployment zone by turn 2 or 3. Additionally the librarian dreads and meph are nasty because they can take down armor quickly because they can do the jump movement thing.

You can play the list but don't expect to make friends doing so.

[Smotku]

Interesting. I tried a smaller points list with 2 vindiys and 2 Baals. I had had some regular assault squads. and a chaplain and I lost the three games I played with it. It really was not that hard to diable or destroy the preds and the vindys. A glancing shot prevents them from shooting at a minimum.

I did however come in second in hardboyz with a 6 Land raider list.

[WereWolf_nr]

Interesting... I hadn't thought of the Libby Dreads and had even forgotten about them.

One of my concerns had been how it would stand up to anti-armor weapons. I figured on using the Razorbacks and/or Dreads to both saturate the field with AV targets and/or provide cover for each other.

[Shadoq]

Its an AV13 spam list.
Between the dreads and 6 preds, most armies are going to struggle with that much AV13 in your face.
The best luck I've had countering it has been loading for bear with melta. Even then, I have to get to his armor and dreads to do anything to them and if I had bad rolls the unit would be taken out the following turn.

[Dezmo1218]

I've run similar variations of this list for fun... but I usually stick with 2 Baals and got with 2 MM Attack Bikes as my 3rd Fast Attack choice; they've saved the day for me too many times to leave behind. Color me emotionally attached.

As for 3x Predators... I'm also attached to my Vindicator, so if I do run a mech-based list, it's usually

2x Baals TLAC/HB/Extra Armor
2x Attack Bikes/MM

2x Predators AC/LC/EA
1x Vindicator/EA/SS (My precious (or precocious) Vindi has a penchant for getting stuck on potholes.)

The above is usually the core for my mechanized forces... then I just add what I feel like playing; I'll bring some drop pods full of ASM or Death Co./Dreads to dance in their deployment zone while my tanks do the shooting, or a few razorbacks filled with scoring units iif I'm playing "nice".
:rolleyes:

[rle68]

2 armies i see crushing that lst

space wolves and dark eldar

its that simple

you cant out assault any of the two armies and against DE its all armor 12 and against wolves the preds will be flaming wrecks by turn 3

i have eaten that list with both of these armies

and if i dont want to be nice ill pull out my Black templars and out shoot you to death with las spam in additon to the rest of my army

and 1 vindi is an abomination its 3 or none

[Tynskel]

2 armies i see crushing that lst

space wolves and dark eldar

its that simple

you cant out assault any of the two armies and against DE its all armor 12 and against wolves the preds will be flaming wrecks by turn 3

i have eaten that list with both of these armies

and if i dont want to be nice ill pull out my Black templars and out shoot you to death with las spam in additon to the rest of my army

and 1 vindi is an abomination its 3 or none

Hah!

1 Vindicator works quite fine for me. But I usually have 2 Preds and a Land Raider. And other stuff.

[Duke]

I'm going to try this lost out... Just need three new libby dreads

Duke

[WereWolf_nr]

Libby dreads, assault squads in reserve for objective grabbing or razorback tac squads for more armor spam.

@rle68 Do you have anything specific that you refer to or are you just listing armies that should do well against this?

[Dezmo1218]

2 armies i see crushing that lst

space wolves and dark eldar

its that simple

you cant out assault any of the two armies and against DE its all armor 12 and against wolves the preds will be flaming wrecks by turn 3

i have eaten that list with both of these armies

and if i dont want to be nice ill pull out my Black templars and out shoot you to death with las spam in additon to the rest of my army

and 1 vindi is an abomination its 3 or none

Cool story bro. You countered my theoretical list with just hot air. You win at internets.

[DarkLink]

Cool story bro. You countered my theoretical list with just hot air. You win at internets.

Oh, but I'll bet he's won like 50 tournaments, and those players he beat were really really good, too:rolleyes:.

The "i can beat that list so it totally sucks" argument isn't a very good one. Unless, of course, you can actually give a detailed explanation of the tactics the list uses, and how you can counter those tactics.

[rle68]

well exscuse me for not wanting to type out 3 lists

youre pretty simple minded if you cant even think what a standard dark eldar list would do to you

the rest im not going to type out you build that weak armor list and get tabled by a decent player

[rle68]

Libby dreads, assault squads in reserve for objective grabbing or razorback tac squads for more armor spam.

@rle68 Do you have anything specific that you refer to or are you just listing armies that should do well against this?

bt list at 1850
4 las plas squads 2 with razor backs twin las canon
ven dread las canon missle launcher tank hunter
terminators 2 assault canons and tank hunters 1 chain fist
lrc
3 vindicators potms
emperors champ
abhor the witch

seems like a simple list but it eats armor

[WereWolf_nr]

bt list at 1850
4 las plas squads 2 with razor backs twin las canon
ven dread las canon missle launcher tank hunter
terminators 2 assault canons and tank hunters 1 chain fist
lrc
3 vindicators potms
emperors champ
abhor the witch

seems like a simple list but it eats armor

Now that we have seen what a list dedicated to destroying this list looks like, what have you guys seen at tournaments that will kill a Predator spam?

My local metagame focuses on the assault phase. Given the relative lack of infantry there isn't much to assault. Even if the vehicles are assaulted, they are still trying to hit vehicles that have moved more than 6" each turn.

The worst I have seen at 1500 so far in a DE list was 6 Dark Lances and a few blasters, which while bad, isn't the end of the world, especially on their frail vehicles. I'll grant that a Long Fang heavy force would be a pain, but if they brought all lascannons to a tournament they may beat me, but loose every other round.

The BT list, while bad is probably not something that would be seen in a game where my opponent didn't know what I was bringing unless they were really paranoid of IG Mech spam (or this sort of list).


well exscuse me for not wanting to type out 3 lists

youre pretty simple minded if you cant even think what a standard dark eldar list would do to you

the rest im not going to type out you build that weak armor list and get tabled by a decent player

Now first, if I'm to be insulted, please at least get a C on your English and grammar while you do it.
Second, as I mentioned above, if the Dark Eldar spam their Anti Armor weapons, they are still stuck to some of the frailest infantry and vehicles around so my imagination doesn't see too much problem with DE.
Third, the point of this thread is to discuss tactics for and against the proposed army list not just say that everyone else lacks imagination.
Fourth, if this thread is as far beneath you as your tone suggests, you are free to leave it and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Dezmo1218]

well exscuse me for not wanting to type out 3 lists

News flash: You're in a forum. You are taking the time to post in an ongoing discussion. People partaking in said discussion may expect a thoughtful response that adds to the conversation, rather than knee-jerk ripostes that ultimately add no value.

We're not asking you to type out three lists. You don't even have to type out one list. All you had to do is offer a suggestion as to what could give six predator-variant tanks some trouble.

Your method of arguing without any substance to add to your argument is rather elementary school. Take a little bit of time to make yourself look a little more than a drooling snotling. You know, for your own benefit.


youre pretty simple minded if you cant even think what a standard dark eldar list would do to you

Oh no, the new hotness. The horrors of squishy infantry with high-powered weapons. Have you seen what happens to Dark Eldar troops when 30 AP4 shots from three Baal Predators are thrown their way? Sure, they can sit back and shoot my tanks from across the table, but with intelligent use of LOS blocking terrain and cover and outflank, they're going to run into trouble sooner rather than later.


the rest im not going to type out you build that weak armor list and get tabled by a decent player

Any list is a weak list when played by a weak player. And the opposite can hold true.

[Splug]

ML longfang spam would be annoying, but it's a 1 in 6 chance to pen on hits. The bigger problem is that a good crossfire is going to make getting front armor against everything tricky, and that AV11 is not nearly as durable. Lascannon longfangs are more dangerous, but at the price of soaking up a vast chunk of the army's total points. It's also worth noting that the best marine counter per-point to long fangs are probably heavy bolters... so that's going to come down to who shoots first, and how well the non-AP1 weapons do against 6 vehicles. The probability of losing even half of them on the first turn is relatively low, even with split fire.

Assault cannon spam is pretty much the bane of the dark eldar's existence. The only thing wyches hate more than S6 shooting is Null Zone, and the rest of the army actually fears the assault cannon more - particularly on the fast predator chassis. One round of kiting with the superior lance range is possible, but there isn't enough room on the table to get two. And again, you're looking at single, non-AP1 shots against a reasonably heavy wall of mech, versus hits that effectively are AP1 due to the open-topped rule. If anything, predator spam is hell for Dark Eldar - not the other way around.

Black Templar have vows other than Accept Any Challenge in 5th ed? Who'd have known... Overall, that actually does look like a reasonably solid list, particularly against a mech-heavy opponent. The lack of melta weaponry would be the biggest downfall - predators have a lot of weapons to plink off one at a time, and banking on rolling 5's and 6's is risky. The predators also move faster, meaning the vindicators may give up some side armor after getting a shot off. The four minimum-size scoring units are a liability as well, particularly with two of them on foot. The volume of anti-infantry fire from the predators will again play a non-trivial factor very quickly.

[Sandman2663]

Effective Predator spam with Shield Libbies whether BA or SW is highly viable and tournament winning.

Whether you run 6 Preds or throw a Vindi or two in there it is fully capable of dealing with almost anything and forcing the hand of the opponent into conceding positions on the baord.

Local tourneys have this list, BA or SW, win time and time again. If they don't win they are top 3.

[DarkLink]

well exscuse me for not wanting to type out 3 lists

I wasn't really talking about list choice. There are a lot more variables in 40k that just the player's lists.

And I'd say it's pretty obvious that a list with a lot of vehicles would be weak against a list designed around a lot of anti-tank. It's rather pointless to respond to a take-all-comers list with a tailored list designed specifically to beat it and it alone.

Facing tailored lists is good practice for tournament players, though. Gives you some practice for dealing with worst case scenarios. So maybe you are contributing something to the thread, by giving the OP lists to use as a worst case scenario. So, y'know, he can practice and learn how to counter said scenarios, as even a bad list can beat a good one if the player is skilled and experienced enough.



youre pretty simple minded if you cant even think what a standard dark eldar list would do to you

It seems to me that you'd need to define "standard" dark eldar list. Not all DE lists are dark lance spam, after all. I presume you're mentioning DE as a good counter because they're capable of packing in so much anti-tank that they could theoretically destroy every predator in one turn. But that depends on who gets first turn, and if anyone uses reserves or scouts. And what does the terrain look like? Is there plenty of stuff for all these vehicles to hide behind, or is there little to no LOS blocking terrain? These things matter, believe it or not.

And for those DE lists that don't have thirty str 8 Lance shots, all the str 6 and 7 shots the predators throw out is perfect for blowing Raiders and the like out of the air, then burninating them with flamestorm cannons.




the rest im not going to type out you build that weak armor list and get tabled by a decent player

Because anyone who would take that many predators is obviously and incompetent player, so any decent player will win anyways, right? Or because every single person out there plays space wolf missile spam, or DE dark lance spam?

When you make a claim, you are, in fact, usually expected to provide an argument to back it up. You've claimed that the predator list is horrible, and that any decent player (irrespective of army list) can beat it. Fine. Now back it up.

[bloodangel 83]

hey guys and girls, i played a game last thursday against DE @ 1250 pts. As far as BA went i lost my Armour b/c of troops, but as far as 6 preds that would be a real pain to fight off if not prepared for all types of armies like foot pounders or mech. next time i will take 1 Baal w/ heavy flamers and 2 preds- 1 auto/hb 1-twin las w/ las sponsons with maybe a whirlwind in the mix with Stromraven w/ twin link las hb and blood strike missles. i guess what i'm saying on my part is that armour has its good and bad pts but i will never foot slog my army again

[Tynskel]

Blood Angels Whirlwinds rock!

ie: Tanks Shock!, move 12" Fire at something across the board.

[Defenestratus]

I run the 6 predator list.

3x TLAC, HB Baals (don't even bother with the flamestorm)
3x AC, LC Sponson Preds
Librarian with shield and FotD
2x assault squads
2x sang priests
2x furioso's in DP's.

Love to use this list. I have fought against DE with a list similar to this, and you can see the battle report here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMvXaWDal4Y

This was 2500 pts with a slightly different list. The 6 predators were in there though.

[rle68]

Now that we have seen what a list dedicated to destroying this list looks like, what have you guys seen at tournaments that will kill a Predator spam?

My local metagame focuses on the assault phase. Given the relative lack of infantry there isn't much to assault. Even if the vehicles are assaulted, they are still trying to hit vehicles that have moved more than 6" each turn.

The worst I have seen at 1500 so far in a DE list was 6 Dark Lances and a few blasters, which while bad, isn't the end of the world, especially on their frail vehicles. I'll grant that a Long Fang heavy force would be a pain, but if they brought all lascannons to a tournament they may beat me, but loose every other round.

The BT list, while bad is probably not something that would be seen in a game where my opponent didn't know what I was bringing unless they were really paranoid of IG Mech spam (or this sort of list).



Now first, if I'm to be insulted, please at least get a C on your English and grammar while you do it.
Second, as I mentioned above, if the Dark Eldar spam their Anti Armor weapons, they are still stuck to some of the frailest infantry and vehicles around so my imagination doesn't see too much problem with DE.
Third, the point of this thread is to discuss tactics for and against the proposed army list not just say that everyone else lacks imagination.
Fourth, if this thread is as far beneath you as your tone suggests, you are free to leave it and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

1850 de list 12 dl and 12 blasters.. eats armor on a regular basis and i have been playing dark eldar for many years now.. no one said they werent frail but if they go first and any self respecting de player knowing he will go first or not will limit your shooting and max his. and ill put up 12 dl's and 12 blasters against that type of tuna can list any day

and the same holds true for my bt list it eats armor and ruins hordes days too it wins reguarly

wolves ruin anyones day you dont need las cannon wolves to beat that type of list a rocket horde will do it too. especially wih njal calling down storm powers that can wreck tanks

and its not all about killing the preds if you stop them from shooting they are not useful unless they can ram or shock something but you stop them shooting you cut the teeth out of the viper

[rle68]

now id also put in a eldar eldrad seer council list that can and will wreck armor as well.. i have seen the guy that plays that type of list do it regularly. that is until wolves appeared :)

[Splug]

Seer councils are less exciting against fast-moving vehicles. If you rely on spears, it's only one vehicle a turn. If you go with assaults, hitting on 6's can significantly hinder the effectiveness of the multiple charge. However, if there are dreadnoughts to cling to with one dude in the corner, it will be extremely difficult to ever have an actual shooting phase against the bikers.

24 lance/blaster shots will destroy an estimated 1.7778 av12+ vehicles iin one turn, and shake slightly more - not including the effects of cover/sanguine shield.

3 twin-linked assault cannons will destroy an estimated 1.7778 raiders in one turn - not including the effects of cover/flickerfields. This is not including any other weapons such as heavy bolters, autocannons, or the rest of the army. The same weapons double as effective anti-infantry. I believe predator spam, due to the extreme prevalence of multi-shot mid-str weaponry, is very much favored in that match-up.

[DarkLink]

I'd agree, a smart BA player would spread his vehicles out enough that it would be tough for the seer council to effectively engage many vehicles. And aside from seer councils and fire dragons, eldar anti-tank above str 6 is expensive, few and far between. The game would come down to whether or not the eldar player could engage the tanks with the council and fire dragons, or if the BA player could pick them off before they were able to hit the tanks.


And while 24 dark lances killing 2 vehicles per turn is nothing to laugh about, Splug has a good point in that the predator list has a ton of returning firepower that is highly effective against DE and their vehicles. Thanks to the autocannons, I wouldn't expect any ravagers to be alive after a turn or two, and by then the assault cannons will be able to engage the rest of the raiders. That game wouldn't be about the lists anymore. It would come down to who goes first and who can take advantage of terrain the best.

[WereWolf_nr]

Seer councils are less exciting against fast-moving vehicles. If you rely on spears, it's only one vehicle a turn. If you go with assaults, hitting on 6's can significantly hinder the effectiveness of the multiple charge.

<snip>

I believe predator spam, due to the extreme prevalence of multi-shot mid-str weaponry, is very much favored in that match-up.

Yes, but if they use the spears as ranged weapons they may still get a few s9 hits in, which can hurt the sides and rear of predators.

As for facing DE, I agree, it would be a slaughter based on whoever went first. Against DE on foot would probably only make it worse for them.

[Splug]

My point with the spears is you can't split the fire. Throwing 6-10 spears into the side of a predator will result in blowing up one predator several times, and then having nothing to assault. The seer council gets scary when it gets to assault 3-4 vehicles at the same time (preferably after they don't move, or only move 6") and incapacitate all of them for at least a turn with a single squad. Given the price of a jetbike council (50+ points per model), you can't afford to pop one predator a turn, then soak return fire. Fortune or not (and it's quite possibly going to be without fortune if a furioso librarian is still alive to hood it), there's a huge volume of S6+ fire that's going to be wounding them on 2's.

[bloodangel 83]

Here's my armour list that i will try next time i play,
Baal Pred - Assualt Cannon, Heavy Flamers, Storm Bolter, HK 160pts
Pred - Auto Cannon, Heavy Bolters, SB, HK 140pts
Pred - TL Lascannon, side Las, SB, HK 200pts
Whirlwind - SB, HK 110pts
3x Rhinos - SB, HK 70pts ea
LR Crusader - SB, HK, MM 280pts
Stormraven - HB, Twin link Las, Blood Strike missles 200 pts,
so total pts w/o troops 1300pts, what do you guys think?

[Mycroft Holmes]

Blood Angels Whirlwinds rock!

ie: Tanks Shock!, move 12" Fire at something across the board.

Am I remembering things wrong?? I thought you couldn't move and shoot Ordinance Barrage... was that 4rth ed?

Mycroft

[Dezmo1218]

Ordnance requires that no other weapon systems on the vehicle be fired on the same turn. That's why BA Vindicators are so much fun. Cruising speed 12", fire your big-bada-boom. Whirlwinds would be the same kind of fun.

[somerandomdude]

Am I remembering things wrong?? I thought you couldn't move and shoot Ordinance Barrage... was that 4rth ed?

Mycroft

You're half right. You can not fire an Ordnance Barrage weapon if your vehicle moved. However, the Fast rule says you treat the vehicle as being stationary if it moves at combat speed, so it can still fire.

Tynskel is wrong in the fact that you wouldn't be able to move 12" and still fire.

[Frostea]

Although not a full pred spam list, the following is a nasty mech list I made for 2k games

3 baal predator
heavy bolter

3 furioso librarian
-blood lance
-wings

2 5men assault marine

2 land raider @ 35pt discount each
multi-melta

librarian
-shield of sanguinus
-blood lance

2 vindicator

The furiosos are handy against typical marines and can smash vehicles with ease. Also presents a dangerous target for the opponent to shoot rather than the vindies and preds since they can fly real fast.

The land raider punishes any one that forgets to pack some form of melta or lance.

The librarian can give 5+ cover sv to anyone within 6" of the land raider he is in.

The assault marines are there to give discounts to the land raider and to cap points when necessary. :o

For anything else, the baals and vindies will mow the lawn.

[Aenir]

Could a Ravenwing army give mass Preds trouble?

tons of quick moving T5 3+ models with many Speeders and Attackbikes w/MM?

Plus Sammael (who to counter this list, I think should be in the Speeder IMO)

[Dezmo1218]

Could a Ravenwing army give mass Preds trouble?

tons of quick moving T5 3+ models with many Speeders and Attackbikes w/MM?

Plus Sammael (who to counter this list, I think should be in the Speeder IMO)

I played a Ravenwing-heavy list just the other day with my pred list, and his army got chewed to pieces. Here's essentially what happened: He deployed first, setting up across the board (pitched battle) to make sure he could zoom across first turn and be in my face... He fielded a squadron of 5 Land Speeders all with MM and one Typhoon which made me quite nervous, and had a few biker squads as well. I counter deployed in the far corner furthest from his speeders, in cover, the Predators facing outward, "protecting the young" (like many herbivore herd-animals do in our natural world), and had him come to me. My Baals moved 1" on their scout move and popped smoke to give them cover and await the firestorm.

He sent his bikes and speeders in for the kill, expecting an easy fight... the long range preds plinked off bikes and speeders piecemeal and when he got into melta range, well, he ended up getting into range of 6 TLAC's (3 Baal/3 Razors) which annihilated his bikes, and after another turn destroyed his speeder group. He popped one of my Baals with a MM shot finally, but I had my librarian (mounted in the protected razor) throw up his shield which luckily saved me a few penetrating hits. After his failed assault, I took to the offensive, utilizing flat out moves, and the speed of my tanks to seize the ground and chew up his scoring troops, and ended up tabling him on the 6th turn.

So even on the defensive, this list has impressed me quite a bit. :) Granted, he wasn't making good tactical decisions and was jones'ing for some armoured kills.

[Pendragon38]

I played a Ravenwing-heavy list just the other day with my pred list, and his army got chewed to pieces. Here's essentially what happened: He deployed first, setting up across the board (pitched battle) to make sure he could zoom across first turn and be in my face... He fielded a squadron of 5 Land Speeders all with MM and one Typhoon which made me quite nervous, and had a few biker squads as well. I counter deployed in the far corner furthest from his speeders, in cover, the Predators facing outward, "protecting the young" (like many herbivore herd-animals do in our natural world), and had him come to me. My Baals moved 1" on their scout move and popped smoke to give them cover and await the firestorm.

He sent his bikes and speeders in for the kill, expecting an easy fight... the long range preds plinked off bikes and speeders piecemeal and when he got into melta range, well, he ended up getting into range of 6 TLAC's (3 Baal/3 Razors) which annihilated his bikes, and after another turn destroyed his speeder group. He popped one of my Baals with a MM shot finally, but I had my librarian (mounted in the protected razor) throw up his shield which luckily saved me a few penetrating hits. After his failed assault, I took to the offensive, utilizing flat out moves, and the speed of my tanks to seize the ground and chew up his scoring troops, and ended up tabling him on the 6th turn.

So even on the defensive, this list has impressed me quite a bit. :) Granted, he wasn't making good tactical decisions and was jones'ing for some armoured kills.


To counter armor might takes alittle skill and the right tools:

1) take two storm speeders with scouts and beacons

2) drop pod two vern dreads with two speeder squads with MM and Typhoons

3)a squad of attack bikes with MM and HB . and razors with hunter missile and squads

4) 3 preads with lascannons

5) M O F for HQ

[Maelstorm]

I've run a Necron Destroyer wing (15 destroyers) with a Destroyer Lord, 1 Monolith and the C'tan Deceiver against armour heavy lists. I regularly park/pop 4-5 vehicles a turn, note - Land Raiders are easier to target as they are larger targets. On average I get 3 glances (usually 1 immobilized, 1 weapon destroyed and 1 shaken or stunned) per Destroyer squad per turn on AV 14 , the Monolith will pop a vehicle with AP1 (2d6 select the highest) or gives the Destroyers a second WBB roll. The Destroyer Lord walks through any armour (strength +2d6) brave enough to rush the center of the game board (usually a Death Star Land Raider). The C'tan Deciever and Destroyer Lord eat the terminators who fall out (all of their combined attacks ignore armour and invulnerable saves). The required 2x10 Necron Warriors walk onto the board from reserves - away from the action if needed to prevent phase out and head for objectives, or in the thick of it to glance deep striking dreadnoughts to useless smoking hulks (20 shots = 4 glances per squad).

There's always someone ready to melt a stinky cheese list... :)