Annoyed about eldar

[Fueldrop]

there's some things that have been nagging at the back of my (demented, messy and malfunctioning) mind about the eldar. to see if anyone else feels the same way, i'm going to list them here:

1) Eldar armour is inferior to flack armour. i say this because eldar guardian armour is a full body suit that provides the same protection as the breastplate and helmet worn by the imperial guard. i thought eldar had better tech than that? (and anyway, if you're a dieing race why give your soldiers the same protection as the HIGHLY EXPENDABLE imperial guard?) if the tau can give their army 4+ across the board (not counting auxiliaries) then why can't the eldar?

2) Plasma. Eldar are supposed to be masters of plasma technology. as such, they have 3 plasma weapons: the Plasma missile (thumbs up, very cool!) the starcannon (a bit so so.) and plasma grenades (in theory.). no aspect other than the striking scorpions makes any use of plasma tech (to the best of my knowledge.) and they only use plasma grenades. what really annoys me is that assault grenades are hoarded by a single aspect, while the imperium can outfit every member of it's numberless legions with them. at least give them to storm guardians! and while we're on the subject, why are our plasma weapons inferior to the imperiums? they have a rifle that can best our cannons at short range! (and about gets hot!: eldar may as well have it, as star cannons are almost exclusively vehicle mounted.) at least plasma missiles are really, really cool.

3) deep strike. with the new blood angels codex, land raiders can now deep strike. the logic goes that they drop them from low-flying thunderhawks. the eldar are often referenced as undisputed masters of the sky, yet not one of our fast skimmers can deepstrike. if you read the last couple of sentences for the falcon's fluff and still say that landraiders should be better at deepstriking, i know of a good asylum you could go to.

4) Psychic powers. this is the big one for me. for the finest psykers in the galaxy, the eldar are seriously getting outclassed by the new marines, damage-wise. i'm not saying that eldar powers aren't good (though eldrich storm isn't up to much), but i've seen a well-placed jaws of the world wolf take out 3 carnifexes, a hive tyrant, and two hive guard in a single shot! no mind war will ever do that kind of damage, and we have to pay for ours. (being fair, eldar do get the best psychic power in the game: Fortune. a bit of bang from our killy powers would be nice, though.)

Summing up, i'd like to say that the eldar are still a very powerful army when used correctly, and that there are many armies that need a new codex before them. i just feel that the fluff and rules sometimes seem at odds, and it gets on my nerves. i'd also like to thank anyone who's been willing to listen to my little rant. thankyou.

[murrburger]

Eldar have an old book, so you have to cut them a bit of slack. I used to play them a lot, but have found myself playing Dark Eldar recently.


there's some things that have been nagging at the back of my (demented, messy and malfunctioning) mind about the eldar. to see if anyone else feels the same way, i'm going to list them here:

1) Eldar armour is inferior to flack armour. i say this because eldar guardian armour is a full body suit that provides the same protection as the breastplate and helmet worn by the imperial guard. i thought eldar had better tech than that? (and anyway, if you're a dieing race why give your soldiers the same protection as the HIGHLY EXPENDABLE imperial guard?) if the tau can give their army 4+ across the board (not counting auxiliaries) then why can't the eldar?

I think a low armour save characterises the basic Eldar trooper. Besides, it's hard to represent ALL the different types of armour with a scale that goes from 2-6. (2nd edition tried this. It was a disaster.)



2) Plasma. Eldar are supposed to be masters of plasma technology. as such, they have 3 plasma weapons: the Plasma missile (thumbs up, very cool!) the starcannon (a bit so so.) and plasma grenades (in theory.). no aspect other than the striking scorpions makes any use of plasma tech (to the best of my knowledge.) and they only use plasma grenades. what really annoys me is that assault grenades are hoarded by a single aspect, while the imperium can outfit every member of it's numberless legions with them. at least give them to storm guardians! and while we're on the subject, why are our plasma weapons inferior to the imperiums? they have a rifle that can best our cannons at short range! (and about gets hot!: eldar may as well have it, as star cannons are almost exclusively vehicle mounted.) at least plasma missiles are really, really cool.

A few things to remember... old book (No one had standard grenades at the time, and we were just coming off of 3rd edition - the edition of Starcannons) and that the Imperium does have very advanced technology from the Golden Age. (Although you see a little too much of it in guard armies theses days)



3) deep strike. with the new blood angels codex, land raiders can now deep strike. the logic goes that they drop them from low-flying thunderhawks. the eldar are often referenced as undisputed masters of the sky, yet not one of our fast skimmers can deepstrike. if you read the last couple of sentences for the falcon's fluff and still say that landraiders should be better at deepstriking, i know of a good asylum you could go to.


Old codex. Before, deep striking was extremely limited. I find coming off from a board edge to be better about 90% of the time, anyway.



4) Psychic powers. this is the big one for me. for the finest psykers in the galaxy, the eldar are seriously getting outclassed by the new marines, damage-wise. i'm not saying that eldar powers aren't good (though eldrich storm isn't up to much), but i've seen a well-placed jaws of the world wolf take out 3 carnifexes, a hive tyrant, and two hive guard in a single shot! no mind war will ever do that kind of damage, and we have to pay for ours. (being fair, eldar do get the best psychic power in the game: Fortune. a bit of bang from our killy powers would be nice, though.)


Old Codex. I guess Space Wolves are supposed to have powerful psykers, because they use sorcery. (Uhh... don't look at Chaos for that argument). I'm sure in the new book, Eldar will once again have the most powerful psykers.



Summing up, i'd like to say that the eldar are still a very powerful army when used correctly, and that there are many armies that need a new codex before them. i just feel that the fluff and rules sometimes seem at odds, and it gets on my nerves. i'd also like to thank anyone who's been willing to listen to my little rant. thankyou.

Yeah well... every army is somewhat like that. I think Eldar are represented a little better than Marines or Chaos at the moment, though.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, there are older codices in worse trouble than Eldar. At the time they came out, Eldar were great psykers. And they still are. It's just that GW is starting to play up the psychic aspect of the game. No point in whining about it, as Eldar will get a new codex eventually.

[davel]

It is worth remembering that star cannons were heavey 3 and dominated over all other choices at tournie. So GW toned them down to 2 shots. then 5th and the rise of the easy 4+ cover save has nerfed them further

Dave l

[Denzark]

Regarding armour 5+.

If I remember development of the marines correctly, they used to be T3 with a 4+ armour save. In between 1st and 2nd ed they became T4 as it was thought the empire's super solders weren't all that anymore.

Also, at some point marine power armour became 3+ to reflect the black carapce, 2nd heart etc - I believe normal human power armour stayed at 4+ for inq etc? (At least until the great dumbing down aka 3rd ed.)

So 5+ for eldar may reflect their fragility?

[Frankio9]

You are right about all those points, and if you look at the Dark Eldar codex you can catch a glimpse of what will change in the new Eldar dex.
Vehicles will probably get the deepsttrike options (retrofire engines), and so on (there is a pretty good artivle or post somewhere that listed the possible changes)
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=12252"

[BuFFo]

You are right about all those points, and if you look at the Dark Eldar codex you can catch a glimpse of what will change in the new Eldar dex.
Vehicles will probably get the deepsttrike options (retrofire engines), and so on (there is a pretty good artivle or post somewhere that listed the possible changes)
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=12252"

Dark Eldar have had these engines since 1998.

Where have you been this whole time? :)

[GM Rex Nihilo]

No one whines like an Eldar player, I hear it ALL the time. I must admit I am sick of it.

Do you hear Necron players or DH/GK players whine as much if at ALL ... I don't

adios

[DarkLink]

Actually, Chaos players are far, far worse. I don't understand why half of them actually play 40k anymore, they're so whiny about, well, everything.

[dannyat2460]

Actually, Chaos players are far, far worse. I don't understand why half of them actually play 40k anymore, they're so whiny about, well, everything.

I agree with that i had to sit between 2 old chaos players at the paint stations at Games Workshop for an hour while they moaned about how crap the new codex is to the old one, by end of it I was like shut up already, for the love of what ever dark god you serve shut up!

[murrburger]

Nope, it's all about the Tau players.

I hope that Dark Eldar stay 'more Eldar than Eldar'. I want to see Eldar with not as much mobility as Dark Eldar, but a wider variety of specialised units and powerful psykers to back up their crappy Guardians. (Who should stay crappy, but maybe get cheaper)

[scadugenga]

Nope, it's all about the Tau players.

I hope that Dark Eldar stay 'more Eldar than Eldar'. I want to see Eldar with not as much mobility as Dark Eldar, but a wider variety of specialised units and powerful psykers to back up their crappy Guardians. (Who should stay crappy, but maybe get cheaper)

With guardians being 60% more expensive than standard imperial guardsmen, I think we can definitely see a reduction in their price.

[BuFFo]

No one whines like an Eldar player, I hear it ALL the time. I must admit I am sick of it.

Do you hear Necron players or DH/GK players whine as much if at ALL ... I don't

adios

Agreed.

Eldar players have been this way for as long as I can remember. It is the kind of player that the army attracts. The same kind that Night elves and vampires attract in MMOs and other fantasy based games.

[Telepfenion]

@ Fueldrop
1) Mobility over protection. In 4th edition, most humans did have same protection but lacked ability to run within their armours.
2) Not exactly sure about technical issues behind melta, but I see fusion guns as part of plasma weaponry. To make it stay 'hotter', ranged capacity had to be cut. No idea if correct but currently Eldar book doesn't say word about 'melta' technology.
3) Heh. Eldar vehicles were already excellent during 4th edition - so excellent that they still compete even after increased amount of heavy firepower. 3th edition Dark Eldar's deep strike for vehicles was just fluff-like alternative for drop pods - if they would have needed to move normally they would have most likely shot down before even half way to destination. And now in 5th, Deep Strike or Scout has become critical part of general game-play.
4) Eldars probably get lots of nice stuff next time. But I doubt super killy stuff is really needed, getting more personal is more like it. Like Eldrich Storm, destroying something is just bonus as true power lies in ability to negate enemy vehicles front armour by turning it to another direction and with some luck, get halfway to terrain giving additional change to immobilize it if it tries to move. This all hidden within power that looks bit underpowered power to slay infantry.

@ General conversation about complaining
I believe that each army has those who aren't fine their codex but why there are so many Eldar player complaining or having wish lists (these two aren't always same thing, even it may annoy others equally much) is probably because Eldar's background states that they should be really powerful but - due balance issues - they are nothing extraordinary. And this can get people really annoyed (causing complains) or making them thinking out current situation and finding solutions what would increase the right feel (resulting wish lists). Of course, there is hard to tell difference between poorly balanced wish list and complaining, and accurate balancing would often need serious play-testing.

And what is the point of wish list? Why we who write those can't keep those by ourselves? Those lists are (at least should be) result of creative progress (and at least for me only method to get ideas out of my mind) and there is no reason to lock down (hopefully) good ideas. Actual odds that someone who truly have impact of next codex would read those are extremely slim but it is still there - so why not try free shot? To borrow some Eldar script from Dawn of War series: "We are shaped by fate as we shape it".

But true, Eldar truly seems to be always in spot-light of complaining. Either because their players or those who play against them. Eldar are bit like cats, one either support them or hate them but they still keep sure that they are not forgotten.

[Rain]

It's not really something that makes any in-universe sense, it's all about game balance. If I remember correctly though and I'm pretty sure I do, Phil Kelly mentioned that the Dark Eldar could in theory outfit their warriors with technology that would simply vaporize anything they aim it at, they just don't because they find the torture inflicted by toxins more entertaining.

This of course seems contradictory with the ethos of the Craftworld Eldar who one would imagine would simply go for efficiency, but perhaps their methods of growing weaponry and vehicles cannot reproduce the same kind of technology that can be constructed in Commoragh via artificial means. This actually makes a bit of sense as Commoragh was essentially a province of sorts of the ancient Eldar empire and kind of like the Las Vegas of Eldar aristocracy, implying that it might well have already had the infrastructure for the construction of all of their various technologies, such infrastructure might have not been feasible on craftworlds, and again, they grow their tech anyway.

End of the day though, these are all just ad hoc explanations for something that needs to be that way for the game to work. They wanted to combine the hyperadvanced Eldar with the steampunk WWI god knows what of Guard and have the Guard win, which is of course ridiculous, but it's a game.

[chromedog]

Eldar have a 4th ed book. SM have a 5th ed book.
This is why.

[DarkLink]

Right. It's pointless to whine about why and old codex is weaker than a new one.

You should be whining about how your codex should be the next one, who cares about whatever codex is actually coming out next they should be squatted anyways:rolleyes:.

[Rain]

Right. It's pointless to whine about why and old codex is weaker than a new one.

You should be whining about how your codex should be the next one, who cares about whatever codex is actually coming out next they should be squatted anyways:rolleyes:.

Well to be fair, we haven't had a Space Marine codex in months, I'm glad that the next one down the pipeline is good ol' power armored defenders of humanity. I'm personally looking forward to the fluff about how a Grey Knight beat up Angron for the honor of Marneus Calgar.

[DarkLink]

Actually I'd find it hilarious if it turns out a Grey Knight did kill the Avatar, but since the GKs are top secret they attributed to Marneus Calgar for propaganda purposes:D.

In fact, I think that should be canon right there

[Fueldrop]

Grey Knights? ba! the army that most needs a new codex is obviously ultramarines. i mean, it's been literally weeks since they've been front page news! then maybe we should look at Grey Knights... maybe. i think space wolves need a new codex, with fast, deep striking landraiders AND stormravens! and maybe some way to let them have assault 3 missile launchers for their long fangs. then ultramarines again. then maybe one of the codexes that need attention, like GK, SoB, or necrons.

PS can anyone tell me why you can give a heavy flamer to the tank-bustin' fire dragon Exarch? it turns the squad from specialist to split, and looses you the highest BS to boot!

[DrLove42]

Well to be fair, we haven't had a Space Marine codex in months,. .

This is why people complain though! Yes its a buisness decision to release so many marines...but see it from a Xenos point of view...we get 1 codex for our army every 4-5 years (if we're lucky). Marines gets a new codex they can "count as" every few months! I wouldn't be suprised if Codex : Vanilla Marines got rereleased during 2011/2012 before the Eldar cos they lag behind their specalist chapters...

[GrenAcid]

PS can anyone tell me why you can give a heavy flamer to the tank-bustin' fire dragon Exarch? it turns the squad from specialist to split, and looses you the highest BS to boot!

http://komixxy.pl/faces/face_1283875998_by_acmilan97.jpg

[PRoeske]

Point wit Older codici is they don't have all the shiny-new-items some players like so much.

For example, GW made a mistkae with the free stormshields on assault terminators, but corrected it in the new BA codex. Now every DA, GK player complains abou not having those free 3++ saves on any model.

On the other hand, I've been playing Chaos Marines for the last 3 months or so. After playing 3 tournaments ican only conclude they are still perfectly competetive. (Off course, you haveto play Double Lash prince, some obliterators and marines in rhino's; but they DO work). I finished Top5 in all thosetournaments btw.

As with Eldar, i think they still have some viable builds around. Farseer with guide/doom and warwalkers are still very nasty, as are seer-councils, firedragons and even warp spiders still do their job.

as for the problems with armour-saves; In the current edition it's all about Mech, which means there are a lot of High S, Lop AP weapons around on the table. Sometimes i think a cheap model with a 5+ save might be even better then a expensive 3+-save model, as long as you can keep them in cover. Eldar still has some of the tanks with the highest survivability in the game (escpecially with upgrades), so I'd say they don't have that much of a problem...

[DrLove42]

Eldar still has some of the tanks with the highest survivability in the game (escpecially with upgrades), so I'd say they don't have that much of a problem...

Problem is the points cost of those. You could have a unit that has a 2++ save thats rerollable all causes ID to all opponents, with WS 9 and BS 9 and say hes really survivable, but he'd be 10x the cost of something that can do the job just as well in a modern codex.

Without upgrades your survivable, but with the nerf skimmers got in 5th, and the cost of newer transports they are less potent. Potent yes, and i've never had too many problems with them. But comparativly....

Remember Holofields (the must take survival piece on any tank) costs 35pts. If you have 2 tanks with them you could nearly get a third tank for the points just by removing them!

[PRoeske]

@DrLove42,
I'm actually missing the point on the skimmer-nerf? As on the point-cost, the only thing that actually dropped in points ae Chimera's and Rhino's, but they actually were very muched over-priced (70 points for a chimera was just rediculous).

[Rain]

This is why people complain though! Yes its a buisness decision...

I guess the sarcasm dripping from my post didn't percolate through your computer screen. Although I am at heart a Chaos player and have played Chaos for 8+ years now, I am currently building a DE army as I have been waiting for this release for years as DE were my first ever 40k army and I quite like them.

The crux of the matter isn't GW, of course they do what is in their business interest, it is the players. I have actually had a guy ask me what I find "appealing" about the "disgusting" Death Guard. It's like people don't understand that if it wasn't for people playing things like plague marines, bugs, and eldar their games would just be space marine combat exercises with the Blood Angels training against the Raven Guard or whatever. They should be grateful for more xeno and Chaos wackiness, but they seem to get mad.

[davel]

PS can anyone tell me why you can give a heavy flamer to the tank-bustin' fire dragon Exarch? it turns the squad from specialist to split, and looses you the highest BS to boot![/QUOTE]

There seems to be 2 flavors of exarch war gear if I use howling banshee for example.

type 1
items that further enhance the squads ability e.g.mirror blades, executioner

type 2
items that do some thing else e.g. triskel

As a beil tan player I have found in tournies that aspect bassed armies just struggle with flexibility which the type 2 war gear offers. This is even more important in lower point tournies.
time was I'd opt for warp spiders as they could be also O.k at assault and scorpions as they could hay wire tanks . that was 4th and previous dex.

GW has taken the stance of old models are still useable (tell that to my dark reaper with web of skulls). If dark eldar icnubi are any indication they to have type 1 and 2 war gear. So I don't think it's going any where.

Fire dragons war gear are both "and 5 guys were also there but watched"
yes the flamer does not go with tank busting, but it fits with fire

the fire pike has the potential to destroy a tank with out the others being in range. How ever most FD squads i see are suicide squads and most players don't mind this as long as tank gets dead

dave l

[DrLove42]

@Rain - I didn't miss your sarcasm, i'm british, i speak it as a second language :P. I think people who play xenos have better chances in games, cos so many armies as designed to kill 3+ small armies, they struggle with others. Anyone who chooses xenos over marines is always good in my book....i'm currently running 3 xenos and 0 marine armies :P

@PRoeske - The skimmer nerf was the changing what flatout was. In 4th the eldar tank could move 12", shoot 1 weapon, and all the hits were downgraded to glancing. Which with the different damage tables, and holofields made tanks nigh on unkillable. Now you have to sacrifice shooting to move flatout, and get the 4+ save.

[DarkLink]

@DrLove42,
I'm actually missing the point on the skimmer-nerf? As on the point-cost, the only thing that actually dropped in points ae Chimera's and Rhino's, but they actually were very muched over-priced (70 points for a chimera was just rediculous).

I'll point out that vehicles got a big boost in 5th ed, thanks to cover saves and damage table modifications. 70 pts is not overpriced now, though they dropped the cost anyways. And, as a result, we're flooded with chimera/rhino mech spam armies. Basic transports are now so cheap they're virtually required.

[doom-kitten]

As many people have pointed out it's difficult to balance armies based on storyline (as if GW bothers balancing armies anyway). Looking at my codex I find alot to whine about (Witch Hunters) but then again who else can benifit from a 3+ invul save on every unit just by passing one test. If most whiners are to busy looking at what everyone else has so they miss the good stuff they have in their own army. 50 pt Rhinos sucks monkey

[Chuck777]

Eldar have an older codex whose points pricing and mechanics were designed for a very different game.