Home made Apocalypse Data sheets.

[Daemonette666]

I am a huge fan of Apocalypse, and have designed a number of them for Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, and Sisters of Battle. Although they are not of a high quality because I only us Microsoft Word, I do make a nice set of rules, that most people like.

I have designed a new datasheet. This one is for Fulgrim Daemon Primarch, and it has been altered a few times because of feedback from others (generally that it was way too powerful for the game, even with the high points cost.

I am posting it here to get even more feedback so that it will become something that is not too powerful, yet has the abilities and stats that Fulgrim should have access to.
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Fulgrim Daemon Primarch of the Emperor’s Children – 200 points + 700 points for Fulgrim + cost of Greater Daemons and daemon princes.

Formation consists of Fulgrim Daemon Primarch and between 2 and 12 Daemon Princes of Slaanesh and/or Greater Daemons of Slaanesh with daemonic flight that act as a body guard retinue

The formation gets the following Strategic Assets: Grand Pavane of Slaanesh, In addition, models from the formation may assault on the turn they deep strike.

The formation only rolls 1D6 for scatter for deep striking.

All Daemon Princes and Keepers of Secrets must take Pavane of Slaanesh.

The formation gets a +1 to its reserve rolls to see if it comes on.

Fulgrim Daemon Primarch – 700 Points
Daemon, Monstrous creature, Fearless, Fearsome, daemonic flight, the swords of pleasure, lash of domination, soporific musk, aura of aquiescence, living icon, armour of living souls, master of sorcery.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
10 5 7 8 6 9 5+3 10 2/3+

Swords of Pleasure: these are 3 Daemon Swords that Fulgrim has complete mastery over. They add +3 to the number of attacks he has in close combat. These attacks cause instant death and re-roll to wound rolls.

Lash of Domination: this is a daemon infused whip. Any enemy in base contact with Fulgrim lose 1 of their attacks to a minimum of 1.

Armour of Souls: Fulgrim’s artificer armour has now been corrupted by the powers of Chaos. It absorbs the soul of each enemy he slays in close combat. The armour confers a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save. Any wounds saved by the armour deliver an automatic strength 3, AP (-) wound on the unit/character that attacked Fulgrim.

Living Icon: Fulgrim counts as an icon for daemon summoning.

Fearsome: enemy within 12” are at -2 to their LD, and must pass a LD test in order to assault him.

Mastery of Sorcery: Fulgrim has the following Chaos Gifts – pavane of Slaanesh, breath of chaos, gift of chaos.
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What do you think of it?

[Daemonette666]

With the amount of replies compared to the amount of people who have viewed this thread so far, I would have to say no one has a problem with this datasheet.

Post some of your own datasheets, and maybe we can get an exchange of datasheets going.

I have a really nice one based on a night lords bike formation, with a special character/ chaos lord leading them.

[keithsilva]

What are you basing everything on did u have an exsample, I dont know about the 2/3 save makes it preatty buffy and have 9 wounds on top of that he woul dbe able to go though a anything but I have never made a data sheet before so.

[Culven]

I think Fulgrim is a bit over the top. I'm not sure that the points to power ratio is balanced, but the abilities compared to fluff and other comparable models seems rather strange. These are the items I have an issue with:

1. Toughness 8. His Toughness seems a bit high considering that it is two points higher than a standard Daemon Prince, and comparable to a Wraithlord. I would think that being one point better than other Daemon Princes would be appropriate.

2. 2+/3++ Save. Combined with his high toughness, this Save will make him able to shrug off almost anything other than Destroyer weapon wounds. It also doesn't fit the fluff. The Mark of Tzeentch only grants a 4+ Invulnerable on a Standard Daemon Prince. Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, which would mean he is faster, not magically protected. However, with the Armour of Souls fluff, I would think that a 2+ (it used to be Artificer Armour) / 4++ (beacuse of the Souls and the fact that Fulgrim is even more powerful) would be more appropriate. Also, I would lean toward the armour being spikey, so each model attacking Fulgrim takes a S3 AP- hit on a 3+. With your current Toughness and Save values, not only will it be very difficult for any model to even wound Fulgrim in the first place, but any wounds that they do manage to cause are much more likely to bounce right back on them.

3. Initiative 9. This seems rather excessive. This makes this giant Daemon Prince faster than almost every other model in the game.

4. Swords of Pleasure. I would change these a bit, mostly for fluff reasons. First, Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince, but Daemon Weapons have full fledged Daemons bound in them, so I think they should still have abilities closer to those of standard Daemon Weapons. I'm thinking give Fulgrim 3 base Attacks, and then each Sword grants +1D3 additional attacks. If any two of the dice come up 1, then Fulgrim must make a Save per the normal Daemon Weapon rules.

5. Lash of Domination. Fluff-wise, I would think it is exceptionally difficult to use a Lash and Swords at the same time, but apparantly Tyranids can do it, so why not Fulgrim? I would change the wording a bit to make it more precise. Try, "Each enemy model in base contact with Fulgrim loses 1 Attack, to a minimum of 1."

6. +1 to Reserves. This is for Apocalypse, right? There aren't typically Reserves rolls for Apocalypse. Is there something for Daemons of Chaos that would change this?

7. Retinue. Not only is Fulgrim nearly invulnerable on his own, but he has a Retinue of Greater and Lesser Daemons? Why? At least let the opponent have a small chance of wounding him in Close Combat. The Unit will still protect him against Shooting. Just make the Daemons form a special Unit to which Fulgrim must be Joined in Reserve.

One final thought to make sure that Fulgrim isn't too over the top. He is a Daemon Prince, elevated from a Primarch and granted blessings by Slaanesh. A Greater Daemon of Slannesh is a direct manifestation of the power of Slaanesh. Fluff-wise, I don't think that Fulgrim would ever exceed the power (i.e. stats) of a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, even when elevated to full Greater Daemon status. I don't have my Daemons codex to hand to check how your proposed stats compare to those of a Greater Daemon, so I just wanted to mention it.

[Daemonette666]

What are you basing everything on did u have an exsample, I dont know about the 2/3 save makes it preatty buffy and have 9 wounds on top of that he woul dbe able to go though a anything but I have never made a data sheet before so.

The cut and paste process moved the stats over a little, he has 5 wounds and iniativee 9


ws = 10, bs = 5, str = 7, tgh = 8, wnd = 5, init = 9, attk = 5+3, ld =10 sv = 2/3+.

The good armour save and decent invul save represent the fact that Fulgrim is a daemon primarch, not just a daemon prince. His stats were suppose to be amazing to begin with. He was suppose to be better than Space marine captains like Lysander and Marnius Calgar, before he was changed into daemon form. The gods wold have improved and corrupted him for their purposes. Therefore I kept the artificer armour, and, since he will the target of so many heavy weapon attacks, I gave him the 3+ invul save. I increased his cost to 700 points to compensate for his bufffiness.

What I based it on was combination of the Angron Daemon primarch datasheet which is very easy to kill off because of his toughness 6, which I think is too weak for him when compared to the Necron C'tan stats, and, the Forgeworld Daemonlord Zarakynel. who's stats still make it able to be killed with heavy weapons, but not by defensive weapons like bolters. I then gave him a bodyguard similar to the Angron datasheet.

The other rules I added from different datasheets like the Masques grand pavane of slaanesh and characters like lucius the eternal and his soul sucking armour. The rule that ignores the daemonic assault rule, comes from the outriders of the brazen host and fateweaver's council of despair datasheets. I included a 200 point cost for the formation's special rules to adjust for this.

I thought people would probably disagree with giving the keeper of secrets daemonic flight, in which case I would change it to include just daemon princes as a body guard.

It might be a bit too much, hence the request for feedback.

[DrLove42]

Why don't you just give him feel no pain while we're at it?

You can't say "he's the target of loads of firepower so i'll make him harder". Or i could write my own data sheet....my tanks attract a lot firepower, so they now get a 2++ rerollable save!

C'tan are probably about to get harder, so using their toughness to compare with is just wrong. Otherwise your saying this chaos infused super human i stronger than a avatar of the god....the Eldar avatar is only T5/6. Angron is a lower toughness...but he takes a retinue of bloodthirsters to soak it up a bit

Remember...he is jsut a human with chaos infusion...he shouldn't be better than the best greater demon in that god selection.

You've fallen into the very easy pitfall of data sheet writting...you've made him very powerful cos that what you've wanted and not considered his balence in the game

[Gir]

I think it was Dakkadakka that was doing rules for all the primarchs, and this is what they came up with for Fulgrim:

Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
380 7 6 5 5 4 6 5 10 2+/4++

Wargear: Fireblade, Legendary Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Gleaming Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Primarch, Phoenician, Narcisistic Role Model

Fireblade: Relic Blade that causes 2 wounds on a wound roll of 6

Gleaming Armour: Provides a 2+ save and a 4+ invulnerable save

Narcisistic Role Model: If Fulgrim is reduced to 0 wounds, every Emperor's Children squad must make a morale test (Even if fearless or would normally pass moral checks) If failed, the unit is pinned and counts as leadership 7 for the rest of the game

Phoenician: Emperor's Children units may re-roll Moral checks and regroup when within 6" of the enemy

Primarch special rules:
Special Rules: Inderpentant Character, And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Rites Of Battle, Eternal Warrior, Fearless

Legendary Weapons: The weapon in question is the pinnacle of engineering in the Imperium. You may re-roll any failed to hit rolls.

These rules are based of the offical rules for Angron that where released by GW.

[Xas]

apparently most people commenting have no sense of fluff...

there are some fluff pieces that suggest the "stock" primarch without any chaos buffs is better than a greater deamon (was it leman russ or angron who broke a bloodthirsters back over his knee?). therefore it is only right that the end product is better than a greater deamon.

for a starters we should think about what deamonhood grants you. look and compare a deamon prince to say a chaos sorceror.

my codex says the upgrade is as following: +2WS, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1A, Daemonic, for the cost of +10%.


next I think we should try to find out how a primarch would start out. the problemativ thing here is to destile the primarch down to a tabletop niveou as much as the marines are toned down (we dont want to produce a celoloit primarch!).

For this part I'd take the comparison that a primarch is to a space marine what a space marine is to a mortal man. This would result in a +1WS, +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1I. cost increase is hard to determine as the armor and boltgun are allways included as well (comparing scouts to veterans with plate armor is a +30% increase. it is a bad example as the scouts have worse WS/BS but I think to completely discard the boltgun and infiltrate is a fair exchange to get even).

so now that we have something to work off we need a model that best reflects they archetype of fulgrim. As far as reading his book from horus heresy goes I'd put him in the place of a space marine captain (and not sorceror of some kind).

so going with that start and adding the total boni of +3WS, +1BS, +3S, +2T, +1W, +1I, +1A and +40% we turn out to be:
WS9 BS6 S7 T6 W4 I6 A4+1 3+/4++ for 140 points.

as this still seams very weak (and at same time underpriced for its stats!) well try improve him. my first idea would be to take the "lysander upgrade". compare lysander to a normal space marine captain with the same equipment and you find out that he is only 30 points more expensive but gets +1A, +1W, eternal warrior and a s10 thunder hammer (so basically +1S to his profile).

this brings us to the following:
WS9 BS6 S8 T6 W5 I6 A5+1 3+/4++ for 170 points.
now I start to like the statline (but still the cost is hilarious so he needs some expensive wargear to make him more bling bling :D).
lets start with both artificer armor and a stormshield (reflecting his deamonic infused armor) for twice the price of what a normal captain would pay.

WS9 BS6 S8 T6 W5 I6 A5 2+/3++ for 230 points. include wings for hive tyrant price and hes 290 points.
now he wants to get his deamonic powers from fath-mother slanesh.

first we take an improved mark of slanesh (taken from lucius which grants +1WS and +1I compared to chaos general) for +10 (twice the the normal price of the mark for an additional allmost useless WS10).
next he wants a fancy deamon weapon. I'll go and borrow zarakniels sword but tone it down to the new trend in dealing with invulnarability saves. so it will grant +1d6 attacks, cause instant death (slanesh deamon weapon normal) but also force to reroll invulnerability saves. as the profile we reached now is more powerfull and we dont want a silly deamon weapon rebelling against a deamon primarch I'd cost it with a hefty 150 points.

as you also want him to have some funny daemon powers I'll buy for 50 points the 3 slanesh powers pavane, soporific musk and aura of aquiescence.

so in the end we have the following:

WS10 BS6 S8 T6 W5 I7 A5+d6 LD10 SV2+/3++ 500 Points

Type: Monstrous Jump Infantry
Special Rules: Daemonic, Deepstrike, Eternal Warrior,
Daemonic Powers: Pavane of Slanesh, Soporific musk, Aura of Aquiescence
Wargear: Armor of Souls (2+ Armor and 3+ Invulnerability), Sword of the Lascious (grants +1d6 attacks, does not rebell on a 1, causes instant death and forces a reroll on invulnerability saves taken against it).

I think at this point giving living icon and fearsome for free isnt any problems.
Key features comparing this to yours is that it doesnt suddenly have a toughness value of a biotitan (t6 and 2+ armor save is enough to make him virtually immune to boltguns and the like. ever seen a E4 carnifex go trough a necron army? well let me say that 2+ and t6 is enough to survive a LOT of s4 fire ;) ) while only haveing a puny strenght of 7. haveing strenght lower than toughness belongs to nurgle and orks but not to super-evil-superheroes of slanesh.

the key t6 also gives your oponents hope and allows for the 3++ to be not OP. remember that it takes a plasmagun a 5+ to wound a t8 model (and get past your 2+ armor to the 3++) and even a lascannon is reduced to wounding on 3+! I think this variant is more fair and can be easily adapted for all the other deamon primarchs (take away the -1WS and -1I from the slanesh mark and replace for what fits and adapt the deamon weapon as you like. maybe also take away the 3++ from armor to differentiate a bit. just some rough ideas: khorne +2A, deamon weapon grants +2d6 and every "6" to hit gives another attack, nurgle +1T, +1W, FnP, deamon weapon doubles wounds and is poison 2+, tzeentch would also get a 3++ from his mark and get some improved shooting powers as well as some counter-psyker stuff. tzeentch might be the hardest).



on your formation: I think paying 200 points to let a hoard of big deamons deepstrike with 1d6 scatter AND assoult after deepstriking is not only underpriced but very, very OP (in such a way that you cannot price it well). it either needs a hughe dissadvantage or lose the assoult after DS. what I could see is that you only scatter 1d6 and your pavane is improved so that it can pull a unit into melee with you (that is harder to pull off as its only 1d6 from pavane and not the guaranteed 6" from charge) and the unit gets the charge bonus.

[Gir]

Xas, your stats are slightly out.

GW's offical rules for Angron as a Daemon prince are:

WS 10 BS 6 S 7 T 6 W 5 I 6 A 6 LD 10 Sv 4+/5++
Monstrous Creature, Daemon, Furious Charge, Iron Hide, Daemonic Flight, Angron's Black Blade (Master crafed close combat weapon that causes instant death), Roar of Hate (Enemies within 12" of Angron reduce leadership by one)

500pts.

If you wanted power order from Marines to Daemons, it basically goes: Captain, Chapter Master, Primarch, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon. The instance you talk about where a greater daemon was killed by a primarch was Sanguinius, after the greater daemon in question wiped out a huge amount of blood angels in front of Sanguinius and basically started the Black Rage.

[Daemonette666]

O.K. , I'll take the feedback and rework the datasheet to something less "OMG run" even for apocalypse to something others will perhaps want to use, or have a go at taking on.

If what you said about C'tan getting even harder, you will see peolpe refusing to play against Necron armies that use them. I really hate C'tan. With their high toughness and strength, and a weapon that ignores armour and invul saves, it can destroy an army on its own. Add to this the low points cost for a c'tan and even I have refused to play against one with my chaos army back when everyone was using them all the time. I suppose I had an anti-c'tan model for apocalypse in mind when I was designing it.

As to the retinue, change it to a group of daemon princes that he can join, which is similar to Angron's datasheet. Keep the stats for Fulgrim close to those of Angron, with less attacks, and a higher intiiative, but with armour 3+/4++. As to gifts, I would say use soporific musk, boon of mutation, daemonic flight, iron hide, aura of aquiescence, pavane of slaanesh, and daemonic gaze. Make it so he can use only one attack - such as pavane of slaanesh, daemonic gaze, or boon of mutation per turn.

I might change the deep strike rule for the datasheet so that Fulgrim deploys first and the others are placed within 6" of him, which I saw on another datasheet. I would still keep the whip, but reword it as recommended, and keep the living icon and fearsome rule. then all the formatoins needs is the grand pavane of slaanesh strategic asset. The cost for Fulgrim would be 500 pts, the cost for the formaton 100 pts, and the cost for the daemon princes, as per the gifts, though they must be given daemonic flight.

[Nosmo75]

I don't understand most of the rules (I don't play Daemons, nor have I fought them), but this looks awesome! A truly fearsome Death Star of Pleasure, Slaanesh would be proud. ^-^

[Nosmo75]

You can't say "he's the target of loads of firepower so i'll make him harder". Or i could write my own data sheet....my tanks attract a lot firepower, so they now get a 2++ rerollable save!

Well, Apocalypse does give people the freedom to do whatever they want, as long as their opponent is in agreement. If an opponent wanted to try fighting tanks with invulnerable saves as a challenge there's nothing wrong with that.


C'tan are probably about to get harder, so using their toughness to compare with is just wrong. Otherwise your saying this chaos infused super human i stronger than a avatar of the god....the Eldar avatar is only T5/6. Angron is a lower toughness...but he takes a retinue of bloodthirsters to soak it up a bit

Remember...he is jsut a human with chaos infusion...he shouldn't be better than the best greater demon in that god selection.

You've just contradicted yourself there. A Daemon Primarch is not 'just a human infused with Chaos', he is a super-human who has been elevated to the rank of Daemon Prince (though 'Daemon Primarch is more appropriate). And I would imagine that a Daemon Primarch would be tougher than an Avatar of Khaine, as the Avatars are 1) fragments of a god, and 2) not legendary characters (legendary characters always seem to receive a buff just because they are living legends).


You've fallen into the very easy pitfall of data sheet writting...you've made him very powerful cos that what you've wanted and not considered his balence in the game

I think this person has considered game balance with this datasheet, but you have missed the fact that the creator is asking for feedback, and therefore probably doesn't consider this datasheet finished. Datasheets and all other fan content in Warhammer and 40K require lots of playtesting, you could have just reminded them to playtest it thoroughly as you feel it is a bit overpowered.

[DrLove42]

O.K. , I'll take the feedback and rework the datasheet to something less "OMG run" even for apocalypse to something others will perhaps want to use, or have a go at taking on.

If what you said about C'tan getting even harder, you will see peolpe refusing to play against Necron armies that use them. I really hate C'tan. With their high toughness and strength, and a weapon that ignores armour and invul saves, it can destroy an army on its own. Add to this the low points cost for a c'tan and even I have refused to play against one with my chaos army back when everyone was using them all the time. I suppose I had an anti-c'tan model for apocalypse in mind when I was designing it.


The c'tan improvement was one of the earliest necron rumours, dunno if its still present. They originally said (through the internet mill of course) that C'tan were being completly pulled from the codex in their current form, and reintroduced as gargantuan creatures for Apoc only. But don't know if thats still present

Balencing fluff and gameplay is incredibly hard, and i always like it when someone takes the chance of doing soemthing. But it will take an age of playtesting to get things balenced. As for Primarch vs Demon Prince, consider Skarbrand. A bloodthirster so powerful he was actually able to damage (ever so slightly) the armour of Khorne himself....before getting dropkicked to oblivion by the blood god.....and look at his stats!

Yes he has to be hard as Adamantine Nails, but he has to be killable or no one will want to play against him. Even the greater demons, a Warlord titan are killable...only exception to this is Nid Biotitan...which is just broken cos of its rules under the new codex....

[Daemonette666]

The c'tan improvement was one of the earliest necron rumours, dunno if its still present. They originally said (through the internet mill of course) that C'tan were being completly pulled from the codex in their current form, and reintroduced as gargantuan creatures for Apoc only. But don't know if thats still present

Let us hope that if they are being reclassified as gargantuan creatures, that their points value will be more than the 380 or 300 points they cost now, and closer to 700 or 800 points each. Something like zarakynel or some of the other daemon lords. I just hope they do not give them mass points, like the tyranid gargantuan creatures. That would make them too powerful.

I would have to get all the D weapons online to combat the C'tan and monoliths if it came to that.

Thanks for the feedback, I will be re-working the datasheet after Christmas, and have another go with it.
I will post another datasheet I think is almost complete, and I have gotten good feedback on from other gamers. As before feel free to give some feedback, and use it for your own games.

[Daemonette666]

This is the my datasheet for a Night Lords Bike based datasheet. I based it on hurons hounds, but I wanted something to compliment the Night Lords force I am building. It has some rules that suit the Night Lords background, with a couple added to allow them to work in apocalypse. The retrofitted Chaos Bike for the lord was just an experiment I added to allow me to use the doom rider model. I plan to change the doom rider models head to that of a night lord, but since I have 2 doom riders, I wil still have an unmodified collectors model.

Enjoy the datasheet.

Night Lords – Terror Knights, Riders of the Apocalypse. 200 points + cost of models.[U]

The Night Lords are masters of terror and speed. Their once mighty legion has been split into many company sized warbands. Former Captain Tobin Karnaxis commanded the Night lords Scout bike/ fast strike Bike company. His wealth of experience and controlled ferocity inspire his warriors to almost insane charges. Showing riding skills that would put the White Scars to shame they ride down their foes before slaughter them.

Formation:
1 - Chaos Lord mounted on Chaos Bike can be retrofitted with a Twin Linked Melta Gun for + 10 Pts, and any upgrades as per codex chaos space marines.

3 + squads of Night lords Chaos Marines Bikes – minimum 5 bikes per squad, plus upgrades allowed for chaos SM bikers in codex Chaos Space Marine except icons -see below.

Special rules:

Squads can only carry an icon of chaos glory – Chaos is worshipped as a whole by the Night Lords.

Squads must start within 12” of the Chaos Lord, or if coming in from reserves, arrive within 12” of the point the lord entered the board.

The Chaos Lord and all Squads get Night Fighting, Scout, Infiltrate, and Skilled Rider universal special rules.

The formation also gets the Flank March Strategic Asset.

Ride the Wind: Once only per game, the Chaos lord can use his riding skills and ferocity to inspire the formation to ride like the wind. – When “Ride like the Wind” is used, any squad with a model in 6” of the Chaos Lord can assault that turn if it Turbo Boosts. Dangerous terrain test are taken if charging the enemy through cover.

This is the formatoin I am building up at the moment. 200 + 160 + 390 + 390 + 395 = 1535 Points

1 Chaos Lord mounted on Chaos Bike (30) retrofitted with Twin Linked Melta Gun (10), Power Weapon, Personal Icon, Bolt Pistol, Power Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades, Independent Character, Fearless, Biker. 160 Points

1 Squad of 10 Chaos Marine Bikers, Bikers, Power Armour, Frag + krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, Chaos Bike, 1 x Melta Gun, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Icon of Chaos Glory, Exalted Champion with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs. 390 Points

1 Squad of 10 Chaos Marine Bikers, Bike, Power Armour, Frag + krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, Chaos Bike, 1 x Melta Gun, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Icon of Chaos Glory, Exalted Champion with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs. 390 Points

1 squad of 10 Chaos Marine Bikers, Bike, Power Armour, Frag + krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, Chaos Bike, 1 x Melta Gun, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Icon of Chaos Glory, Exalted Champion with Power Fist. 395 Points

Designed by Deborah Harrison
Adapted from the Hounds of Huron Datasheet

[Xas]

Xas, your stats are slightly out.

GW's offical rules for Angron as a Daemon prince are:

WS 10 BS 6 S 7 T 6 W 5 I 6 A 6 LD 10 Sv 4+/5++
Monstrous Creature, Daemon, Furious Charge, Iron Hide, Daemonic Flight, Angron's Black Blade (Master crafed close combat weapon that causes instant death), Roar of Hate (Enemies within 12" of Angron reduce leadership by one)

500pts.

If you wanted power order from Marines to Daemons, it basically goes: Captain, Chapter Master, Primarch, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon. The instance you talk about where a greater daemon was killed by a primarch was Sanguinius, after the greater daemon in question wiped out a huge amount of blood angels in front of Sanguinius and basically started the Black Rage.

first: I think GWs "official" rules are the biggest -swearword- since they neutered the CSM codex to the unfluffy wreck it is now. he simply isnt worth the cost compared to something as simple as TWO normal princes and offers nothing special to make this up. hell he isnt even a much better concentration of power (actually he does less dmage than a nurgle prince with warptime).

second: do you have any fluff references that every joe-deamon prince is stronger than a primarch? I seriously doubt that after reading the horus heresy novels up to - including "A thousand sons". what leman russ does to the thousand sons is so much more brutal than what any deamon prince could do and even a greater deamon would struggle to achieve. even then I wasnt giving them a hughe boost as you can re-read and only did a simple man->marine upgrade.

thirdly: going from captain to chapter master only gives you a 25 point expensive orbital bombardement that would be totally unfluffy for a deamon primarch.

[Daemonette666]

first: I think GWs "official" rules are the biggest -swearword- since they neutered the CSM codex to the unfluffy wreck it is now. he simply isnt worth the cost compared to something as simple as TWO normal princes and offers nothing special to make this up. hell he isnt even a much better concentration of power (actually he does less dmage than a nurgle prince with warptime).

second: do you have any fluff references that every joe-deamon prince is stronger than a primarch? I seriously doubt that after reading the horus heresy novels up to - including "A thousand sons". what leman russ does to the thousand sons is so much more brutal than what any deamon prince could do and even a greater deamon would struggle to achieve. even then I wasnt giving them a hughe boost as you can re-read and only did a simple man->marine upgrade.

thirdly: going from captain to chapter master only gives you a 25 point expensive orbital bombardement that would be totally unfluffy for a deamon primarch.
When asked what sources I used as a guide for designing Fulgrim, I said I based his stats on Zarakynel Daemon Lord, and that I did not want to use the Angron stats fromt eh GW datasheet, as i tought his toughness was too weak for a Daemon Primarch.

Well enough of Fulgrim, I will be working out a new datasheet after Christmas. Enjoy the Night Lords datasheet. An addition to the Terror Knights - Riders of the Apocalypse datasheet is that the Chaos Lord can not take marks of chaos.

[Gir]

first: I think GWs "official" rules are the biggest -swearword- since they neutered the CSM codex to the unfluffy wreck it is now. he simply isnt worth the cost compared to something as simple as TWO normal princes and offers nothing special to make this up. hell he isnt even a much better concentration of power (actually he does less dmage than a nurgle prince with warptime).

second: do you have any fluff references that every joe-deamon prince is stronger than a primarch? I seriously doubt that after reading the horus heresy novels up to - including "A thousand sons". what leman russ does to the thousand sons is so much more brutal than what any deamon prince could do and even a greater deamon would struggle to achieve. even then I wasnt giving them a hughe boost as you can re-read and only did a simple man->marine upgrade.

thirdly: going from captain to chapter master only gives you a 25 point expensive orbital bombardement that would be totally unfluffy for a deamon primarch.

1st: Look at the Chaos Space Marine codex as Codex: Black Legion, and it's perfectly fluffy.

On angron: I agree, he's over priced, but it's power is pretty much spot on for what it should be.

2nd: Game is an abstraction. An'ggrath is supposed to be one of the most powerful creatures in the universe next to the chaos gods themselves, but goes down REALLY easily in an apoc game.

3rd: See above, it's an abstraction. You can't really look at the generic chapter master for the proper comparison, you have to look at the likes of Calgar And Dante. Basically, Mephiston is a good stat baseline for a primarch.

[Xas]

gir: I did end up useing lysander as an intermediate state (clearly stated in my buildup) but I havent thought of Mephiston. This might be a good idea to try out (and as he is hard as nails might even jsutify more badass stats) once I feel like doing it.


666: I like that datasheet but it seams you didnt change much from hurons hounds other than the fluff? dont know them from spot but the 200pts tag for assoulting after boosting was the center stones I remember from them as well.

10pts for the meltagun on the bike might be a bit cheap (it is 10pts for a combi-melta on the chaos lord so this should cost 20pts but thats a minor thing in apoc).

[Daemonette666]

666: I like that datasheet but it seams you didnt change much from hurons hounds other than the fluff? dont know them from spot but the 200pts tag for assoulting after boosting was the center stones I remember from them as well.

10pts for the meltagun on the bike might be a bit cheap (it is 10pts for a combi-melta on the chaos lord so this should cost 20pts but thats a minor thing in apoc).

Many of my datasheets, except the Fulgrim one stuck close to those that they were based on, but with a themed twist to them.

With the Terror Knights formation, I liked the turbo boost assault rule, so I kept it. The other fluff such as limiting them to unaligned icons and marks, night fighting, skilled riding, scout and infiltrate, I added to make them more of a Night Lords bike force. I thought an extra 100 points should have covered it. The Flank March and the turbo boost assault rules cost 100 points in the hounds of huron datasheet, so I went with that cost as a guide.

The 10 points for replacing a combi-bolter with a combi melta, well 1 worked it off a bolter costs 5 points in the wargear list, while a melta gun costs 10. Since lords do not pay twice the cost of troops for weapon upgrades anymore, I thought it was fine. I only included that option so I could make a conversion of the Doom Rider, and liked the idea of a bike mounted combi-melta in the game. I had originaly written it in as a Multi-Melta, but 2 people told me Chaos can not get multi meltas, except on dreadnoughts or obliterators, so it should be a melta gun.

[Daemonette666]

This is the revised Fulgrim Daemon Primarch datasheet:


Fulgrim Daemon Primarch of the Emperor’s Children – 100 points + 500 points for Fulgrim + cost of daemon princes.

Formation consists of Fulgrim Daemon Primarch and between 2 and 12 Daemon Princes of Slaanesh with daemonic flight and Pavane of Slaanesh.

The formation gets the following Strategic Assets: Grand Pavane of Slaanesh.

Fulgrim Deep Strikes, and the Daemon Princes arrive within 6” of him.

Fulgrim Daemon Primarch – 500 Points
Daemon, Monstrous creature, Fearless, Fearsome, daemonic flight, the swords of pleasure, lash of domination, soporific musk, aura of aquiescence, living icon, armour of living souls, master of sorcery.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
10 6 7 6 5 9 8 10 3/4+

Swords of Pleasure: these are 3 Daemon Swords that Fulgrim has complete mastery over. They add +3 to the number of attacks (already included). These attacks cause instant death and ignore invulnerable saves.

Lash of Domination: this is a daemon infused whip. Any enemy model in base contact with Fulgrim loses 1 of their attacks to a minimum of 1.

Armour of Souls: Fulgrim’s artificer armour has absorbed the soul of every enemy slain in combat. He has a ranged weapon with the following profile. Template weapon, Str 5, AP3, Assault 1, used in the same manner as a doom siren.

Living Icon: Fulgrim counts as an icon for daemon summoning.

Fearsome: enemy within 12” are at -2 to their LD, and must pass a LD test in order to assault him.

Mastery of Sorcery: Fulgrim has the following Chaos Gifts – pavane of Slaanesh, breath of chaos, gift of chaos.

This is in between the two extreme view points given in this thread, and allows allows the formatoin to still be effective without being too weak.

[sangrail777]

Sangiunius broke the greater deamons back at the eternity gate siege of Terra.

[sangrail777]

FYI u say 500 points for Fulgrim then list him for 700, which is it?

[Daemonette666]

FYI u say 500 points for Fulgrim then list him for 700, which is it?
That was a typo, damn I missed that, thanks. I had edited it and noted it on the revision.

It is 500 points. I reduced the cost of him because I reduced his toughness down to 6, and his strength was also Nerfed to 7. I reduced his armour to 3+/4++, and removed the rule that gave additional attacks from the armour (refer lucius the eternal), replacing it with a doom siren. i also took away the +3D6 attacks which ignore 1 failure rolls for the Daemon weapons.

I removed the rule of a Greater Daemon, or Daemon Prince being a retinue, and did not even allow them to be a unit in the revised datasheet. They are just 2 - 12 individual monstrous creatures, + Fulgrim. I also removed the rule I made that allowed them to charge on the turn they deep strike. I still think it would be a good idea, as I have seen it in GW datasheets for Daemons, Blood angels, etc.

Overall the Datasheet has had nearly all the sneaky powerful rules removed (except for the instant death, and ignoring invul saves rule for Fulgrim).

[Daemonette666]

Sangiunius broke the greater deamons back at the eternity gate siege of Terra.
That was the greater daemon Ka'Bandha that broke Sanguinius's legs in the ambush on Signus Prime, was t not?

So greater daemons can hurt Primarchs them - LOL. i suppose Chaos would only strengthen and toughen them up then.