Cobra vs Scorpion

[DrLove42]

Which is best?

Only one way to find out!

Fight....each other with words!

I've decided to use early christmas moneys and some of my first pay check (getting paid to be a student now...love it) to invest in an Eldar superheavy. Don't want a titan at present...no where to store it, and waiting for a phantom. Need it for early februrary.

Now i don't have the apoc book at hand, or the FW IA2 with updated cobra rules so i can't compare points and weapons. All i know is the cobra is a 10" pie plate at Strength D, wheras the scorpion is 2 5" at Strength D.

Asking those who have, or have fought against either...which one in your opinion is a better tank? Unless theres something i'm forgetting about the cobra's weapon i like having 2 shots instead of one massive one...

[DarkLink]

I totally thought this was about GI Joe from the title.

2 5" blasts is better than one 10". You don't quite cover as much area, but you do get the opportunity to hit two separate targets, or do two structure points of damage to a single superheavy.

[Sorrowshard]

Also the scorpion is cheaper and twin linked, its win all the way. The cobra looks all kinds of amazing, a shame its not quite as awesome as it should be, the scorpion is even more dangerous VS unshielded super heavies.

Reminds me, I actually have one that is NIB , Its never going to get played with at this rate , may have to put it on fee bay in the new year ....

[scadugenga]

I've gone over the pluses and minuses of both for awhile. I haven't purchased either yet, as FW effs up every order I place with them. (another story)

As I can see it, the Scorpion is the better anti-super heavy vehicle. 2 5" D pie plates are great, but since it's still only 1 weapon, you have to abide by the targeting rules. (IE, both shots at the same target) better for anti super heavies.

The Cobra--well, I have to say I love the Cobra Mk II sculpt. So...deadly and pretty looking all at the same time. The Cobra with it's 10" pie D plate is going to be better against vehicle squadrons/formations as that's a whole lotta pain going on.

If you look at sheer area--a 5" pie plate is 19.63 square inches. You get two shots, so 39.26 square inches of D Strength pain.

The cobra, with the 10" pie plate, provides a whopping 78.54 square inches of D strength pain.

Pick the one that will work for what you want it to do. Both Mk II sculpts are beautiful.

You want any superheavy: Scorpion's going to be your go to tank.

You want area denial/clearance: Cobra all the way...

[Xanadu]

Don't forget the stupidly short range of the Cobra... 24" on a 10" template isn't fun....

I would personally go for the Scorpion though...

[scadugenga]

Don't forget the stupidly short range of the Cobra... 24" on a 10" template isn't fun....

I would personally go for the Scorpion though...

Cobra has a 36" range. 24" is standard D-Cannon.

[Defenestratus]

When did it change to 36" In IA:A (2008) it was G48"

Personally, cobra all the way simply due to the fact that it ignores defensive shields, meaning that imperator titan is feeling the pain as soon as its on the board. 15 void shields? Pfft, who cares, its all about the structure point damage (at +1 on the damage chart too baby)

I think the scorpion is just a crappier version of the Vampire Hunter.

[Archon Charybdis]

I'm with Defenstratus. The 10'' blast covers significantly more area than 2 5'' blasts, and the ability to ignore defensive shields is a fairly equalizing factor against other super-heavy vehicles. Also, barrage is never something to underestimate. And I don't know where people are getting these ridiculously low ranges from, but the Distortion Cannon is a 48'' Apocalypse blast. Combined with the 12'' move for being a fast super-heavy, it's effectively got a 60'' range each round.

[scadugenga]

Defen & Charybdis:

I was basing the range from reading the book a good 18 months ago. mea culpa. :P

I knew it was more than 24", thought I remembered it being only 50% greater, not double.

[Bigred]

I say go with the Cobra,

Then you can dispense with the whole having to even worry about stripping enemy shields for the big stuff. For the little stuff, the 10" pieplate is not going to ever totally miss the way the little 5" ones can.

I fought against a Scorpion 2 years ago with my Reaver at Adepticon. it wasn't an issue at all as it had to rely on other forces to deal with my void shields. Cobras are bad news all on their own.

[eldargal]

I like them both, but if you can't have one (or three) of each, I'd go for a Cobra.

[Defenestratus]

One thing about the Cobra, is that you can effectively neutralize a warhound with one shot. I've even gotten lucky and destroyed one with one shot. I think you'd be hard pressed to find another unit that could kill a warhound titan at range with one shot.

Usually my opponents are so scared of my cobra that they totally ignore my phantom and revenant until the cobra is dead - which is fine by me.

[DrLove42]

Yeah gonna go with a cobra...

My only thoughts for the other are i deal with plenty of gargantuan creatures and huge demons...so two shots better than one. But i also deal with a warlord titan occasionally so being able to ignore 12 power fields is a definate win


On another point does anyone know if theres any difference in points or stats line between the Mk1 (in Imperial Armour Apoc 1) or the Mk2 (Imperial Armour Apoc 2)?

[Xanadu]

Well, I didn't have my book on hand, so I'm sorry for my mistake.

I do like the idea of the massive template though, and as people have said, it can kill warhound titans in one shot.

It is 48" in IAA2.

[Archon Charybdis]

The only difference is for some asinine reason, they change the wording on the Titan Holo-fields to say 4+ invuln instead of negating the shot on 4+, which is directly contradictory to the THF rules everywhere else. Ultimately it's not such a big deal, but it means you can't combine the holo-field save with going flat out, and then certain weapons can ignore your invuln save.

[Sorrowshard]

Actually if it has been changed to an invun now you can use fortune to get re-roll saves ;)

This one-shotting a warhound seems incredibly unlikely ....

[Drew da Destroya]

This one-shotting a warhound seems incredibly unlikely ....

Unlikely, but possible, and that makes all the difference!

[Silver Drakes Legion]

Actually if it has been changed to an invun now you can use fortune to get re-roll saves ;)

You can't fortune a super heavy. Believe me we all want to but the only psychic powers that can effect a super heavy are one's with a strength value. It's in the first Apocalypse book.

Definitely the cobra it has an amazing gun and looks the best of the eldar tanks.

[Duke]

I say get the cobra... It's awesome! I love my scorpion, but if I ever played apoc games anymore I would 100% get a cobra. Ignoring shields pisses people off!

Duke

[Archon Charybdis]

With ignoring Void Shields, and the +1 on the super-heavy damage chart for being a Destroyer weapon, it's a 1/18 chance of rolling enough successive chain reactions to wreck a Warhound in one-shot. And as Silver Drakes Legion pointed out, you can't cast psychic powers on a super-heavy unless it's a shooting attack with a S value--so no Fortune for your Cobra.

[Duke]

You can't fortune a super heavy. Believe me we all want to but the only psychic powers that can effect a super heavy are one's with a strength value. It's in the first Apocalypse book.


True enough, but it is apoc, so anything is possible if your lawyering skills are good enough.

[Defenestratus]

True enough, but it is apoc, so anything is possible if your lawyering skills are good enough.

Do what I did

Make your Ulthwe seer council of 30 farseers and 70 warlocks and dare your opponent to say that collectively - they can't cast fortune on your superheavy.

I also play against Magnus the Red all the time, and it seems to me that he should be able to cast psychic powers on superheavies.

[DrLove42]

Do what I did

Make your Ulthwe seer council of 30 farseers and 70 warlocks and dare your opponent to say that collectively - they can't cast fortune on your superheavy.

.

Thats....scary. I run a 10, 20 seer council and they absorb so much fire cos people are terrified of them...but thats...just insane!

[Defenestratus]

...but thats...just insane!

My typical apoc games, I'm forced to deal with an Chaos Imperator, Reaver, 2x warhounds and at least a primarch or two.

My arms escalation came at a need to deal with all those threats at once. You have to understand that the squad is the equivalent of 300 lascannons in close combat with the big titan. The 30 fire dragons have a good chance of blowing it up but typically my opponent guns for their aspect assault wave with everything he has before they can get within 12" of his base.

The seer council I never actually fielded, as the game I had been hoarding the minis for actually never took place - but the last weekend in Feb, I'm fighting that aforementioned force plus a couple of baneblades, Horus, Mortarion, Magnus, Angron and the FW Lord of Change - so the Seer Council blob might actually make an appearance.

I'm actually thinking about ditching them and making them mounted on jetbikes.

[Archon Charybdis]

Horus, Mortarion, Magnus, Angron and the FW Lord of Change - so the Seer Council blob might actually make an appearance.

I'd be very curious to see the stats people use for Horus, Magnus, and Mortarion. Also, with your giant blob squad, mind the vortex missiles.

[Defenestratus]

I did the math, and if I fit eldrad, 29 farseers with Runes of Warding, Stones, and every psychic power except storm (since it sucks)

+ 70 warlocks. 1 of each, conceal, enhance, embolden then 33 augment, 34 destructors

All witchblades

Comes to 8030 pts. Which, is 30 more than the imperator.

Vortex missiles are handled by my fliers.

[Sorrowshard]

Never played any games above uk tourney size 1500-2k but it seems to me that having a 4++ is a bit crap opposed to a bunch of void shields, it only made sense on the premise you 'could' fortune them , never having done more than study apoc in passing I was unaware of the rules pertaining to psychics and super heavies.

Do people find that eldar compete ok ?

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

LOL, i find that funny you would put so many Farseers and Warlocks in one army. I have played against a guy who used 20 (5 farseers and 15 warlocks)....my response was simple, i introduced his council to a Celexus assassin, i love it when he suddenly gets Str 5, Ap1 and Assault 17 that there max LD is 7 while in 12" of him.
Was gleeful to watch him destroy so many psykers before finally dying. In the end he personnaly killed 2 Farseers and 7 Warlocks, and 4 more died from Perils of the Warp combatting him.

As for your post, go the Cobra, nothing ruins a day when you wipe out 10" of troops, vehicles and everything else.

[DrLove42]

Never played any games above uk tourney size 1500-2k but it seems to me that having a 4++ is a bit crap opposed to a bunch of void shields, it only made sense on the premise you 'could' fortune them , never having done more than study apoc in passing I was unaware of the rules pertaining to psychics and super heavies.

Do people find that eldar compete ok ?

I do find one 4++ save that you lose the second you can't move/immobilised is a very poor trade off for void shields that recharge everyturn. The only benefit is we always get ours, whereas the imperials lose them under 12", and that our tanks and aircraft get theres (although all aircraft now get a 4+ cover save anyway) whereas the Baneblade for instance doesn't. it just gets 5 times as many guns...and we pay through the nose for a lower armoured tank, lesser armed tank that has this one save and can move fast.

The tradeoff depends on how you roll. You could pass 50 4+ saves and survive firepower that would bring an imperator to its knees, or you could fail the first one and lose it....

[Sorrowshard]

So, yeah, suckfail compared to everyone else then , there is a 50% chance the first shots to strike your super-heavies will be on the table.... ummm thats pretty **** given there is likely more guns pointed back at you its not looking good, guess I wont bother with Apocoeldar then , the poor phantom titan is going to get bent over by everything when it shows up.

[Archon Charybdis]

So, yeah, suckfail compared to everyone else then , there is a 50% chance the first shots to strike your super-heavies will be on the table.... ummm thats pretty **** given there is likely more guns pointed back at you its not looking good, guess I wont bother with Apocoeldar then , the poor phantom titan is going to get bent over by everything when it shows up.

You're overreacting. It's true on a Warlord or Imperator, with enough shields and structure points that you can protect yourself from a lot of fire and then restore them more easily, the Void Shields are a better deal than a Titan Holo-field. However, at this point, nobody has any clue what the rules for a Phantom/Warlock titan will look like, so there's no sense kvetching about complete hypotheticals.

If you want to make a comparison right now, there's really only the Warhound compared to the Revenant. Frankly, between the two I'd much rather negate all attacks on a 4+ than have two AV12 shields which can get plinked away by a lucky autocannon, leaving you no defence against meltas and D weapons.

And if you're not interested in Eldar titans, that's hardly a reason to swear off Apocalypse. As people have already discussed at length, the Cobra is a great super-heavy vehicle, have access to a number of cool flyers, and have some really powerful datasheets like this: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440062_Eldar_Datasheet_-_Shadow_Walker_Formation.pdf

[Sorrowshard]

I cannot see how they will do anything but give it the 4++ which as we have covered is significantly worse than banks of void shields.....eldar heavies have lower armour too :o(

Data sheet is certainly interesting. I imagine there are many more imperial ones which I would be unsurprised to find being more powerful.

I was holding off on really doing anything apoco- wise til the phantom drops , have been sorta saving for it , will see how they work out rules for it, but titan h fields will make it the worst in its size class by a clear mile.

[DrLove42]

Back at the FW open day when the Phantom was announced i chatted to them about preliminary rules, so they've prolly changed a bit but....


He talked about holofields that recharge and blow down. So you start the game with a 2++. If you fail it once it becomes a 3++. Fail again becomes a 4++. Never gets worse than that. And they get better by moving. So move and shoot everything gets you a save...move fast, or fleet full out and the save improves.

Its supposed to have a gun "that makes the Cobra cannon look like a pea shooter" (direct quote :p)

Also supposedly comes with the equivilent of spirit stones so it can always move, never lose its save

And is looking at same price (in real £$£$£ and in pts pts pts) as the Reaver.




ALSO - My cobra got delivered yesterday morning :P

[Xas]

in terms of survivability the comparison between cobra / baneblade is the same as between a serpent and a leman russ in a duel situation. the one is faster and has potentially better weapons (lance,), the other has higher armor.

If you are concearned about low armor, why are you playing eldar in the first place?

With superheavy tanks a baneblade has far worse weaponry than any eldar superheavy but is more durable (many guns to destroy before it cannot do anything anymore). a destroyer pieplate is much better than a s9 ap2 pieplate and a few bs3 lascannons and heavy bolters.


with titans however the holofields suddenly get worthwhile in a duel situation as against destroyer weapons armor value doesnt have a meaning anymore. as both titans can have the same weaponry (2 5" destroyer templates per arm) we have an eldar one that has a 4++ save as long as it moved and the imperial one that has 2 ablative shields. this sounds like a fair deal (4++ save statistically negates 2 of the 4 hits but can either negate all or nothing and the void shields also absorb 2 of the 4 hits).

then factor in other things: the eldar army can easily negate the warhounds shields by shooting them down (its only av12 and a glance is enough so scatterlasers and shuricannons are enough).
in exchange for that the eldar titan has lower armor so that anything which can damage the warhounds shield can in exchange damage the revenants structure itself.


in the end it comes down to the same things like with all the eldar army: great if you can play your race and use the speed for what it is meant to be used and very bad if you want to play them like an imperial gunline.

[eldargal]

Eldar are excellent in Apocalypse in my opinion, being able to ignore FOC lets you pick as many of your favourite units as you like. I'm rather fond of using a Shadow Walker Formation with 30 War Walkers with scatter lasers and deploying it on the enemy flanks, with Web of Twilight it gives 240 S6 shots off. I think 240 anyway, I had wine with luncheon.:rolleyes:
Then you have the Sunstorm Squadron, in my opinion one of the best formations there is.

[Defenestratus]

If You want to get rid of void shields, the war walker formation is awesomeness.

BTW, 30 warwalkers, with the shadow walker formation - IIRC can shoot twice the turn they arrive.

8 shots per wakler x 30 = 240 shots .... x 2 = 480 shots @ str 6. Thats aLOT of dice.

[Defenestratus]

Personally, I don't really care for that squad to just get rid of void shields when you can get them within 12" of a titan and outfit them with dual bright lances that can fire twice.

A squad of 9, fires 36 bright lance shots the turn they arrive - which is more than enough to bring down a warhound or reaver - or at least severely cripple it.