Hard Sell

[steamface]

What is Games workshop indoctrinating into their staff of late? The hobby is awesome and need not be treated like a broken second hand car or a mundane useless product that needs to be sold with hard sell tactics. It slightly worries me that this obsession with pouncing on people as they browse games workshop’s products and the resulting hard sell salesmanship detracts from what makes Games Workshop stores so unique and refreshing in comparison to other retail stores.

Formally friendly gaming orientated stores, have now in many cases closed off their gaming table rooms, on the pretext that the space taken up by them wasn’t generating income! What do they think people gamed with on those tables? The same can be said of the reduction in painting stations in stores, again these are things that you won’t get in any other retail environment. You only have to enter a store these days to pick up some paints or a few models to be pounced upon and have a sales pitch attempting to persuade you into buying hundreds of pounds worth of gear, a tactic that harasses many parents with children who enter the stores with no concept of the hobby, instead of offering them and their children five space marines a few paints and some literature on the hobby, attesting to how great it is, they are instead forced to endure a hard sell lecture laced with sci-fi jargon which invariably ends in one of two scenarios; a refusal to allow their kids to take up Warhammer as a hobby or if the parental emotional blackmail/hard sell tactics work, a massive credit card transaction and a car boot full of plastic. Everyone appreciates that games workshop is a business and it needs to generate profit in order for it to produce new models, codex’s and gaming systems etc. which it does with ever improving greatness, but its sales tactics should rely on explaining what the hobby is about to new comers in a less aggressive and sales orientated fashion, whilst respecting the fact that established hobbyist need not be forced into the turbo consumerism of their products, because more often than not and I speak for myself here, we already spend tonnes of cash on it regardless. The future of the hobby rests with Games workshop being able to attract new generations into the hobby, but I fear many are being put off by an indoctrinated hard sell approach that totally detracts from how great a hobby Warhammer and 40k really is.

[Lupercal]

The high muckety-mucks at GW have changed their philosophy for the Hobby Centers over the past couple of years.

When I started working there (3.5 years ago), the stores were only intended to be the "face" of GW, a place staffed with knowledgeable hobbyists to help the existing community and introduce new blood to the hobby. The stores were not expected to be profitable, only to bring in at least a little more money each year. In fact, most GW hobby centers were never profitable at all.

Now, they have decided that the stores must be profitable as well. They force the staff, such as it is, to sell everything possible to everyone possible or face store closure/execution (the GW colloquial euphemism for firing).

Personally, I think it's a bad move for the hobby and for GW. Perhaps they will totally revamp their philosophy again in a couple of years (they tend to do that). Until then, your assessment is quite accurate and likely to remain the case.

[Agent of Change]

And these changes are exactly why I do not and will not (and cannot remember the last time i did) buy anything directly from GW. Not their website not their store. First off i can support LGS's and interweb stores, secondly I can get things usually cheaper than if i went directly to GW, and thirdly rarely do i feel the need to punch any of the employees at an LGS for badgering me.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I think it is sad that GW feel the need to do this. Most of their clientele know exactly what they want when they go to a GW store. We don't need to be asked whether we have glue, undercoats and other hobby materials. We know what range is available and if we had the money for that extra box of Tac Marines/Character model/whatever and we wanted it in our army, we'd buy it. Not only that. I can appreciate that the models are priced as they are because they ARE a (usually) quality product. What I disagree with is pricing things up to compare with their abilities in the Codices. Why should I pay so much more for one special character figure, even if it is metal? Why am I paying almost half the price of a 5 figure boxed set for one miniature? That is very annoying. And their hobby supplies? £8 for a can of undercoat? £2.50 for a tiddly pot of paint? I do think they take liberties really, which is why I try and buy elsewhere and from discount websites. On top of that, most of the guys that work for GW at managerial level are really smug gitz who take great pleasure in having a little bit of knowledge about future releases, not telling you about it (or worse, make out like they're the caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland and talk cryptically about it) and standing around being, well, smug about it. Oh, and I know you get all your White Dwarf copies on a Friday, so just give me a damn copy, I'm 32 years old, I don't care whether it's 'officially' out on a Saturday. Aaaargh!

Ok, rant over. Sorry everyone!

[Lockark]

I don't mind being asked if I need any glue, paint, ect that day. I work retail and it's just them doing there job/trying to be helpful.

I don't like it when they are trying to push it on you.
O_____o

I'll buy the paints I need, and know what colors I want. Stop trying to sell me paint sets like used cars!

[BuFFo]

I haven't set foot or bought anything from a GW store since 2001/2002.

GW stores were like how you describe back then, so this isn't anything really new. It may be a shock t you, but GW has been sirez biznez for almost a decade now. That is what happens when you become a publicly trade business.

Just find a local gaming store, and support them. Your gaming life will be 10000% better for it, trust me!

[Lerra]

I think it's much more effective when you let the customers do the selling for you. At my LGS, 40k players are in-store during most peak business hours, and whenever new blood expresses interest in 40k, there are a lot of people who will talk up the game, show off their miniatures, offer to play a quick demo game, etc. A lot of times we are selling the store's social group as well as the store's products, and that's a huge hit with people who haven't found their group of nerds to hang out with yet. It's the same way for DnD, Fantasy, Warmachine, Board Games, etc. That is a huge resource for a store to have.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I thought that was just what GW stores were like. Seriously, it's why I never go into the damn things. I like my shopkeeps to be like The Undertaker, and not sell a thing.

[phoenix01]

Not everyone hangs out at BOLS or Warseer or B&C etc. They may not check to see what's new at GW online. And GW certainly doesn't advertize on either the television or the radio.

So how do they get the average customer to know what they have to sell?

"Have you seen the new________?" "For a limited time, you can get ______!" "Need some plastic glue or primer for that new _________?"

My local GW store doesn't push things like many claim is the norm. Many of the phone calls they get are where the caller is looking for Game Stop (they are several stores down in the same mall), and they gracefully give them the number to that store. If someone comes in, they say hello and ask them if they can help them find something. Even though the store has been there for several years, many still just come in to see "that crazy geeky store in the mall."

[BuFFo]

So how do they get the average customer to know what they have to sell?

Word of mouth. Like most niche companies.

[scadugenga]

I haven't set foot or bought anything from a GW store since 2001/2002.

GW stores were like how you describe back then, so this isn't anything really new. It may be a shock t you, but GW has been sirez biznez for almost a decade now. That is what happens when you become a publicly trade business.

Just find a local gaming store, and support them. Your gaming life will be 10000% better for it, trust me!

The only problem is that GW stores/Bunkers have killed off most LGS's. Most of the ones (in my area) derived their "stay in the black" income from 40k and MtG (and other @#$@#$ card game) stuff. Take away the 40k business, and they went under.

There are two---two non-GW stores remaining in the greater Chicago area. One I've never heard of before 2 months ago (and haven't yet been to) and one that's been around for over 20 years, that's a good hour-plus away given Chicago area travel times. Needless to say, the intrewebz get a lot of my business (or friends that live closer to the LGS act as my factors and bring the loot back for me.)

I loathe GW stores, and their business tactics. Even the Bunkers are no longer worthy of going to hang out/game/whatever, as they've cut back staffing to 1 guy at a time, and close at 9pm during the week. Not enough time to get home from work, gather stuff, have dinner, and get a game in.

[Mr.Pickelz]

One thing i don't understand, is why GW staff isn't allowed to promote their specialist games line. Their company products too, and at the local GW shop there is a slowly growing Specialist games player group. as well as a growing Necromunda group at the LGS (not a gw). sure the rules and stuff is out of date, but it would help generate sells for the stores, if they were to promote that to vet's or newbies, it would boost sales...

[Lane]

I've joked with the manager of the local GW store that next time his boss is in town to evaluate him I'd show up and rattle off the answers to the "10 commandments" questions before he had a chance to ask them.

[Pingwin]

In my area (Holland, Europe) the situation at the nearest GW shop has changed the other way around. Couple of years ago the sales assistant would literaly stand next to you when you just wanted to browse a bit and comment on everything you touched. It got me so annoyed I left the shop and didnt return for a long time...

Now my local retailer (around the corner from where i live) has seriously reduced his stock and isnt reliable in taking orders and actually getting the stuff while charging full price. So I revisited the GW shop again (when I was near anyway) and to my surprise I only had to say once 'I am just browsing a bit' and could do so in peace.

Next time I went there I say a familiar face in a red shirt, the new assistant manager was a guy who used to work in my local shop. Chatted with him for a bit and he told me the new 'strategy' for Holland was to take a less pushy and more relaxed stance. Works well for me. Even without the guy beeing around it is an ok place to shop.

[Spider-pope]

One thing i don't understand, is why GW staff isn't allowed to promote their specialist games line. Their company products too, and at the local GW shop there is a slowly growing Specialist games player group. as well as a growing Necromunda group at the LGS (not a gw). sure the rules and stuff is out of date, but it would help generate sells for the stores, if they were to promote that to vet's or newbies, it would boost sales...

It's because they aren't available in store. The current idea is that only stuff that can be bought in store should get the attention. It's why a lot of stores have not only stopped promoting specialist games but told players outright that they can't be played during regular opening hours, some even going as far as to disallow them on vet's nights too.

As for the hard sale, you can blame a combination of factors for that. Firstly the economic downturn means every store needs to be selling as much as they can to make up for the poor state of retail at the moment. The second is internet sales.
You may or may not be aware but in the UK at least GW were very disappointed with sales when the Stompa was released. It's not that it didn't sell, it just didn't shift units through GW stores. Instead a lot of purchasers went online instead. The same has happened with a number of new releases. Again as a result GW has increased the emphasis on selling new stuff in store.

If/when the economic downturn shifts, i imagine GW will re-adopt a more relaxed policy. But for now, as a luxury non-essential item they can't afford to.

What i have found is if you become a regular at a store, this pushyness stops entirely. I go into the store in Liverpool fairly often, and i never get hassled or the sales pitch because the staff know me and know i'm going to spend in store.

[MarneusCalgar]

In my area (Holland, Europe) the situation at the nearest GW shop has changed the other way around. Couple of years ago the sales assistant would literaly stand next to you when you just wanted to browse a bit and comment on everything you touched. It got me so annoyed I left the shop and didnt return for a long time...

Next time I went there I say a familiar face in a red shirt, the new assistant manager was a guy who used to work in my local shop. Chatted with him for a bit and he told me the new 'strategy' for Holland was to take a less pushy and more relaxed stance. Works well for me. Even without the guy beeing around it is an ok place to shop.

Tell you that in Spain something like that has happened... I did not enter a Games Workshop since 2004 or so, and always went then to a local store.

But about a month ago, going to the cinema with my girlfriend, we entered a GW store allocated near the cinema, and the only thing the redshirt man told me is... Can I help you? Are you looking for something in particular?? Then I told him not, and he left me alone to explore the shop. It was very comfortable to not have a redshirt acting like your shadow since you enter the shop´s door.

[Denzark]

Try writing to the company not on here, where the hard sell is an oft-repeated topic.

Having said that, although I hate the ever-pervasive business side of GW, I did see in the London Evening Standard that their financial section advised people to buy GW shares. The reason why they have not only kept their head above the waters of recession, but are profitable, is because of their current business model.

As I know where to get the stuff cheaper - usually on Ebay when little timmy gets bored or into girls, and his mum sells all his stuff - I can't complain too much.

[Lane]

It's because they aren't available in store. The current idea is that only stuff that can be bought in store should get the attention. It's why a lot of stores have not only stopped promoting specialist games but told players outright that they can't be played during regular opening hours, some even going as far as to disallow them on vet's nights too.


Not what I heard.

With the move to single employee stores in the US the managers were given more freedom. If there is interest they are encouraged to run specialist games and campaigns.

[Melissia]

I don't mind being asked if I need any glue, paint, ect that day. I work retail and it's just them doing there job/trying to be helpful.

I don't like it when they are trying to push it on you.
O_____oAgreed. I don't mind if they offer it. But if they get pushy, it becomes unpleasant and people don't want to come back.

[Spider-pope]

Not what I heard.

With the move to single employee stores in the US the managers were given more freedom. If there is interest they are encouraged to run specialist games and campaigns.

I can only comment on UK policy, i don't have any experience or knowledge about how things are stateside since ive never been there :D

[Gir]

I've found that all the GW stores I've been into in Australia are nothing like you describe. My local one hardly tries to sell me anything, and are happy to let my friends and myself use the gaming tables and just browse. They're always there when we need help and never preasure us for anything.

Maybe this is just this store that's like this, or maybe this is what our 'Australia' tax gets us.

[Sparfunk]

i worked for GW for two years and we were trained the hard sell thing, but i was made redundant in april and hadnt been in a gw store or looked at gw products untill the dark eldar were released. i went into my local store (not the one i worked in, but i had worked in there covering shifts and had known all the staff for years (literally more than 10 years for some of them)) and i didnt know any of the staff, so they chat to me, as they're trained to do and within 5 minutes we've established that i have been in the hobby for over a decade, i used to work for GW in the recent past and that i knew exactly what i was looking for.

they still insist (ive been tehre about 3 times since) on trying to sell me things i dont want. no matter how many times i say 'i know what im after' i get the hard sell.

what annoys me more, is that i get all this hard sell, yet not once yet have i had any events or upcoming releases promoted to me, which when i worked there was one of the top priorities. its the 5th commandment afterall. (iirc:P) so i have no idea if theres anything going on i could use my new dark eldar army in.

oh and the guys there dont seem to have a clue either. the managers cool, i like him, can have a good hobby chat with him, and one of the staff members (part timer i think) but the other two full timers dont know much about the hobby and keep trying to sell me crap.

edit: my reason for trying to spend some time down there is that my LGS closed down recently, so finding games of warmachine is proving problematic, so thought id try out 40k again.

[rustbucket]

I've had mixed results both good and bad with the "Hard Sell" both here and in the UK. For us here in the States, GW stores are so few and far between. The closest one previously to me was near Charlotte, NC 3hrs away and closed down 3yrs ago, and now the Glen Burnie Battle Bunker just closed down! That was 6hrs away. Now that Gamesday is going to a one city/yr rotation, I don't see me stepping foot into a GW store at all. Ironically I kind of saw this coming...about 5yrs ago I interviewed with GW HQ in Glen Burnie, MD to work as their Battlebunker site developer, going around building them in various states. The interview lasted almost 2hrs and I was pretty excited about it and nothing came about. Couldn't get a word back, no phonecalls returned, nothing. Shortly after many of those stores in VA and NC started shutting down and a bunch of people laid off from corporate. Then they announced that they were building their manufacturing facility in Memphis and I new one day that Glen Burnie would fall too. Glad I didn't get the job... In all honesty I think I'm better off without one nearby and am just glad that I have a great couple of independent stores around here to fulfill my plastic-crack habit!

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
IMO the HARD SELL is taking over the FUN SELL simply because GW keep raising thier prices OVER inflation by a conciderable amount.

Back in 2000 GW were pricing themselves at about 150% to 200% of the competitors prices.
Now they are about 250% to 400%.

If I can get 40 high quaility multipart minatures from Perry Minatures for £15.
Why should I spend £15 on 10 minatures in a GW store?

When GW product were priced 'for convenience' the staff could just upsell the fun of the 'GW Hobby'(tm)

But now they have to work VERY hard to sell anything at the inflated prices GW want to charge.

Not to mention the fact that since GW are overcharging for readily available products like tape measures etc.
So people see a £1 tape masure marked up at £5 and think wow if everthing is as overpriced I am being seriously ripped off!
(And they usualy are IMO.)

TTFN

[mikethefish]

I am not the hugest fan of GW really (more of a Privateer Press guy), but you have to admit that those 40 miniatures from Perry Miniatures aren't really the most "high quality" as you put it - they look more or less reasonable, but you simply don't get all the customization and features that GW puts into their stuff. GW's prices are fair compared to pretty much all of their competitors. You're comparison is way too simplistic and inappropriate.

[Denzark]

Hi all.
IMO the HARD SELL is taking over the FUN SELL simply because GW keep raising thier prices OVER inflation by a conciderable amount.

Back in 2000 GW were pricing themselves at about 150% to 200% of the competitors prices.
Now they are about 250% to 400%.

If I can get 40 high quaility multipart minatures from Perry Minatures for £15.
Why should I spend £15 on 10 minatures in a GW store?

When GW product were priced 'for convenience' the staff could just upsell the fun of the 'GW Hobby'(tm)

But now they have to work VERY hard to sell anything at the inflated prices GW want to charge.

Not to mention the fact that since GW are overcharging for readily available products like tape measures etc.
So people see a £1 tape masure marked up at £5 and think wow if everthing is as overpriced I am being seriously ripped off!
(And they usualy are IMO.)

TTFN

GW sell GW game systems. Therefore their only competitors are others who also sell GW game systems. This is why now and again we hear they have just spanked the indy sellers both internet and others.

As for tape measures, glue etc, this is enormously clever marketing; the convenience factor for parents buying for Little Timmy who wouldn't have a clue where else to buy - unlike my old man who is a serious modeller, so my tools come from the local hardware store, I use Milliput, and started on Humbrol paints.

It's not really a fair comparison, unless you are buying citadel miniatures not to be used in their games - you pay a percentage for the fluff, the IP, and everything that goes with.

[Mauglum.]

Hi Denzark.
You pay 250% to 400% more for the upkeep of the B&M stores.
(GW spend over HALF thier pre tax profits running the B&M stores.)

Away from GW stores you can use whatever rules and minatures you want in ANY combination.(This means MUCH better value in the open market.)

So if you use GW stores to paint and game in etc, then you are getting the 'additional value' you pay GW for.

If you dont use GW B&M stores what additional value are you getting?

GW are in the table top minatures wargame market.
ANY company that sells fantasy-scifi rules and minatures ARE GWs competition.

And as MOST rule sets are far better balanced than WHFB-40k, and most minatures are MUCH cheaper , people ONLY use GW for convenience.

When I last went into a GW store (Nottingham 1994).It was a hive of activity, vets were running some games for the staff, loads of finished CUSTOMER armies on display.
AN inspiring hive of creativity and fun.
People just wandering through could see the long term benifit of a hobby based on crativity and social interaction.

The last time I passed a GW store,(one man store,which will remain namless) one member of staff was trying to break up a 'heated argument' between 2 11 year olds...

'...GW is in the buisness of seling toy soldiers to kiddies...' according to the company chairman Tom Kirby.

So as I am a gamer I prefer to buy stuff from games companies.

TTFN

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

I've spent heaps of time in stores at Edinburgh, London, St. Albans, brighton, Chermside - Brisbane, and Brisbane City, and have never been pressured into purchasing stuff. Maybe because I'm usually picking up merchandise within a minute of entry, but no one tries to get me to purchase more. I recall once I was talking to Edinburgh's manager about getting into Dark Angels, but he never once pushed me into buying the codex or any models. The Brisbane store is nothing but helpful, and seems to know what I want without getting me to part with my cash. Now, I am not disputing GW staff being pressured to sell, but it does not seem that endemic.

[Behemotty]

I was in a GW today in Dundee. Guy who was working in the store also works in Glasgow, about a hundred miles away. He is a *little* bit pushy with trying to find out what you're in the store for, but nothing awful, and strikes me as a decent enough guy if you can get him off-topic and out of work mode especially.

A comment was made earlier on about the cost of paints, glue, tapes etc. I was looking at printers today, just regular computer printers, and spotted one that cost £35. The ink for it was £30. Companies sure do make their money in peripheries.

I buy most of my stuff through my LGS, people I'm really quite happy to support since they run so many other things, so you get to meet an interesting array of different people. :p

[Gir]

A comment was made earlier on about the cost of paints, glue, tapes etc. I was looking at printers today, just regular computer printers, and spotted one that cost £35. The ink for it was £30. Companies sure do make their money in peripheries.

This is same for pretty much every industry. People who complain about the cost of tape measures and stuff clearly have never tried to buy a TV wall mounting bracket or accessories for there consoles.

[chromedog]

As of this year, I'll no longer have an alternate LGS to the local GW (the LGS was around the same distance away in the opposite direction) and will have no incentive to go to the GW either.

Looks like online sales from here on out (except for major conventions when dealers have sales to match the best prices and I get to take it home immediately.

[The Madman]

I don't actually get this at my GW probably because i'm a regular customer. first thing is a greeting and then he asks what i'm up to and eventually it comes down to business of "i want X do you have it?" and if its a no then i order it instore and continue our conversation or leave if i'm in a hurry.