Is this acceptable

[Grailkeeper]

This has a 9.4 on cool Mini or not- I saw it advertised on 40k.com

http://www.coolminiornot.com/266249

Its a depiction of guardsmen about to gang rape an eldar prisoner.

Its skillfully painted but I was shocked when I saw it- its disturbing and in my opinion wrong. I accept that 40k is a violent game that often has depections of mutilation etc but I think rape is too far.

What do people think?


Qick edit- youcan pick more than one option

[eldargal]

I actually don't have a problem with it, its not overly graphic and nothing about it indicates it is condoning or glorifying rape. Rape has, in fact, always been a part of warfare, and I doubt that will be any different in the 41st millennium. I've often speculated about situations like this cropping up myself.
Its not actually showing rape afterall, we can choose to believe five seconds later the guardsmen get shredded by Warp Spiders. I actually find it rather poignant.

For the record I've been subjected to rape attempts more than once, (none successful, people underestimate how strong I am. Also, six muscly brothers) and I have absolutely no time for anything that makes light of what is one of the most heinous crimes that can be committed against (predominately) women. I don't get that from this, anymore than I do from 'Rape of the Sabine Women' by Poussin. Not that I'm putting them in the same league artistically.

This is just my opinion, of course, I'm sure many people will find it unacceptable, and thats fine. Its not something I would want to see on display at a GW store or anything like that.

[isotope99]

In an absolute sense, I think its acceptable in that it is not that extreme (compare it to what you might see in a mainstream film), but as the hobby is still targeted at children (regardless of what we might prefer to believe), I think it's generally best to err on the side of caution.

Not sure how that fits with the poll but I do think people are voting for the quality of the conversion and painting rather than endorsing the subject matter.

[UltramarineFan]

Well, as eldargal said, it's not depicting rape and tbh I've seen worse and I'm pretty sure many people younger than me(I'm 15) have seen more graphic stuff than that too. Remember also that that diorama isn't making a joke out of it, it's being deadly serious and so I don't see how you could have issue with it, I'd even go so far as to say that people who do have an issue with it should take a look at the real world and realise what sort of place it really is.

[SotonShades]

Didn't we have a recent poll about the lack of grim-dark in our grim darkness of the far future? I guess a lot of us forgot that grim darkness doesn't just mean increadible violence and symbolism (deamons, angels etc).

Would we consider this more/less offensive or acceptable if it were a coven of Slaaneshi Deamonettes around a lone guardsmen? How about a Kabal of DE Warriors or a squad Guardians from Ulthwe around a human female? Would we actually take it as a cutesy joke if it were Female aliens/deamons around a woman?

I think it is great someone is trying to show something of this kind of subject matter in our hobby. Yes a lot of the time our models are simply game peices, but that doesn't mean they can't be pieces of art as well. As eldargal said it may not be in the big leagues, and to my knowledge Warhammer World is the only gallery where you can see miniature permenantly (in the non-virtual world, obviously). Maybe if people continue to do this, ours may not be considered quite such a childish pass-time. Well one can only dream :P

[scadugenga]

I can appreciate grim dark, and I can appreciate the skill in the craftsmanship in the diorama.

That being said, not something I'd care to see in a store, or elsewhere.

It's a game. Despite the grim-darkness of the "there is only war" part of the game, it's still meant to be enjoyed as a pastime and hobby.

Personally, I don't think rape (or the suggestion of same) should be a part of any pastime or hobby--particularly a wargame that is marketed to kids as well as adults. YMMV, of course.

[sebi81]

It's hipocritical to say this diorama is inacceptable. The 41st millenium is full of genozid, war and psychic killers. Aliens are t seen as awful and not allowed to coexist. There is no sense of honor or humanity nor any sanction for torturing and killing aliens. So if you think in a realistic way about the 41st millenium, women will be raped and children will be killed and there will be mad men who have fun doing such things.

If it's ok to show violence, blood and torn apart humans, it's ok to show this scene. It's not explicit, you have to imagine what is going on there.

Overall it's nothing I would show my children, but I wouldn't show them cut off heads or other body parts either. And the scene is not as disturbing for children as a ripped off spine or bloody guts hanging out of a belly (the zombie range for example). For an adult audience it's completely acceptable.

[The Hivemind]

Look at the picture makes me, as a guy, fairly uncomfortable (but I'm quite sure females would be thinking the same). I don't think anyone is debating that rape isn't a bad thing, and doesn't make us uncomfortable. But It does happen, and can happen in warfare. I think the modeller here has just decided to break through our comfort zones of being able to accept the warfare side of it but not much else. Nobody is saying rape is good, but we are saying there is some very nicely painted models here, in a well built diorama, and a scene that not only is likely...but one that actually makes you think and tries to bring you out of your comfort zone. I don't think this diorama (as that is all this is) is any bad thing.

[MarneusCalgar]

Voted for:

If you can accept violence you should be able to accept this

As Eldargal said, raping the enemies´s women has been always a part of war since we do it: from Neanderthal men to nowadays. So it is, want you it or not, a part of human nature when it comes about an armed conflict.

So I see it as normal, always talking about war, as a scene of desecrating of orc´s bodies by space marines.

Other thing is if I should want it to be shown on a Games Day where infants lie... That´s another debate.

But coming back to the topic... It´s as normal as Chaos marines´s duties after a winning combat. Or you think all that Slaanesh is satisfied after killing by having only a tea?

[rogue.trader.voril]

I think I'm with the general consensus on this one. Brilliantly done as art, but not a subject that I would have ever covered. 40k is marketed to a younger age group than that would be suitable for, so definitely a no at the local shops, or on GW's website. I don't know the age group of Coolminiornot.com, but it seems a bit of the older group. I know for me one of the best points of 40k is that, thanks to 25 years of history and the Black Library the universe has been really well fleshed out.**Seriously no pun intended**. And as has been stated before... This has been a part of war. Accept the reality of it or play oblivious to it, it is still a part... a very ugly part.:( This time it was just rendered in stunning detail with masterful craftsmanship :)

[Grailkeeper]

Voted for:

If you can accept violence you should be able to accept this



I should Probably mention that as I made this a poll where you can vote on more than one option I also choose the option that will allow you see who voted for which option so as to give a clearer overall image of whats going on, and to cut down on any potential trolling

[BuFFo]

With the crimes our armies commit, such as mass genocide, murder of the innocent based on fear, and subjugation of entire races into slave like servitude, 5 imperial guard raping an eldar is nothing of any importance in the grand scope of things. The Eldar regularly let innocents die to secure the future.

I understand rape hits closer to home in real life because we deal with that more than mass genocide or slavery, but play the game against a Jewish person where the goal is to purge a planet of a race of people because one town got infested, or play the game with an African (or Jew again) where the goal, as Dark Eldar, is to capture millions of people and force them into slavery until death.

I don't care if people choose to distance themselves from the true aspect of this ADULT game on a daily basis. The game deals with ADULT situations, and sometimes we are reminded of this.

You can turn on paintball mode in a shooting game. You are still killing people left and right.

I voted Yes, if for anything I am an artist, and this is just art.

[eldargal]

I think that might be why this piece has the potential to be so controversial, it reminds us that war isn't all cool tanks, heroes, and plot armour, that grimdark can actually be pretty damned grim and dark.

[Xas]

I think this is 100% acceptable.

Actually it is more acceptable than many things described in the black library books and even codex artwork/writing.


My reasoning for this is that the eldar is clearly a combatant (the wave serpent wrack in the back suggests she is part of the crew and the non-craftwordy nature of the battlefield suggests that it isnt a place where you are going to find any eldar civilians) and therefore rapeing her isnt any less acceptable than killing or eating (nids) her or takeing her body/soul for eternal damnation (DE/deamons).

If you are a comatant in the 41st millenium there is really nothing that is NOT accepted to be done to you.


On a second note I think the quality of the work and arrangement of elements is so that it really falls under "art". There is much hinted but allmost nothing shown. Tbh this diorama isnt any more damaging/dangerous to a childs mind than a simple unconverted khornate berserker with blood painted on his axe.

both are subtle enough so that you'd actually need to KNOW what is going on to understand it and therefore if the child in question doesnt already know things it shouldnt know everything is good and save.


What I really like about this is that it pictures a dire and dangerous situation but not a shure thing. If you think about it for I while you will realise that this situation probably is allmost more dangerous for the soldiers than for the eldar soldier. She is what she is (an alien with superhuman reflexes and psychic powers. remember that all eldar are highly psychic even though only a few have powers that are worthy of beeing represented in the tabletop), has a weapon within reach (the knive near her left hand) and the guardsmen are underestimating her and shurely are at least a bit distracted by her female figure as well as their own arusement and fantasies. Finally only one guy has his weapon trained on her and a second one a weapon ready (boltgun searg).

Combine all that with the natural arrogance of all eldarkin and she will shurely not lay down and give up.
So in the end I'll give her a 60-65% chance to survive this encounter and only a 10% chance of survival to the 3 guardsmen which are outside the vehicle. If one of the humans has any chance I'd assume it is the seargent with the boltgun as he's already looking weary as if he was the only one knowing what eldar are capable of.

The mental picture I have is that shell wait till one or both of the unarmed men comes near her (they finally have to get her lower armor off first and do what they want to do), grab the knive and stab the one touching her in the neck while useing the dying body as a shield against the lasgun. then do a piorett to escape the punch/kick of the other unarmed guardsmen and use the momentum to either get to the lasgun guy or trow the knife into his face/troath. then it is basically a matter of the seargents nerves/reflexes and if he is coold enough to shoot a boltgun spread into the ensuring melee, killing both his comrades and the eldar.

if she has been part of any aspect shrine before going back to more civilian duties (guardian/driver outfit) she will be able to in addition bake a cake while doing all that...


the imperial combat doctrines do not prohibit this sort of behaviour with alien women because the imperium is so nice or cares about non-human rights in warfare but simply to make shure a stray disarmed xenos doesnt whipe out half a squad because the men are horny...;)

[eldargal]

Quite, for all we know its a trap and there are a team of Pathfinders with sniper rifles trained on the Guardsmen because a Farseer believes one of them might be a future Creed.

[Night System]

I find myself nodding in agreement with everyone else on this subject.

The art material itself is beautifully painted, no doubts behind that. But think of the themes 40k also has, Genocide, Extermination, War, Strife, Racial Purging, Cannibalism, Terrorism, Slavery, Heck even the millions of guardsmen thrown to there death every day just as a meat sheild.

All of these are arguably worse than 5 measily guardsmen having there way with a POW. Yet due to the larger scale of the other issues, this is seen as a more personal and therefore more trouble causing problem.

But it is still a part of the 40k universe which in my opinion is a bit to adult for most kids these days. Think of all the computer games that have come out for the 40k universe, how many of them which deal with the nitty gritty background are below a 15 age rating?

I agree it shouldnt be shown in white dwarf, on in a shop window. But that is not to say that the artwork does not have its value.

[Archon Charybdis]

The subject matter makes me uncomfortable, but sometimes that's what art is intended to do. Though, it's not a topic I think is necessary to discuss or depict in the context of 40K--a fictional fantasy escape and fun pastime, where generally fans already appreciate the black and gray morality inherent in the setting. It could be he's trying to point out the double standard between depicting gratuitous physical violence and sexuality or sexual violence, in which case I do support him. If you're able to read about all the other horrors of the 41st millenia and take it in context, you should be able to see a depiction of rape--especially one that's at least done with a modicum of subtlety.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

AS a painter i agree on the aspect that this diorama is masterfully painted, constructed and very well thought out. The brush strokes, blending and scenery are what make this project so interesting to see.

I for one would never glorify what this is showing, actually for me personally i really dont like how it makes me feel to know someone can easily create such work and show it off as skillful.
Yes its masterfully done, with the topic of the rape, crimes of war and animalism of the human race (and others i guess) of what really happens in war to the innocent.
For me, i dont agree at all with this, i find it sickening to see and if i ever had the pleasure to meet the artist i would rightfully tell him so. Im intitled to my feelings, just as he/she is to his creative works, yet i would say this sickens me.

Im not an idiot to turn aside and dismiss that these issues and many more happen in real life. And as a game, i know we all accept some Khorne berserker going around killing everything, its in the books, in the blood splattered gore, its in history.
We find violence in games, t.v and much more. We all love yelling DIE Die when we roll our dice to slaughter our enemies on the table (personally i dont), yet glorifying the scene of rape for others to see is an issue i seriously take offence to that others including children will see.
Kids these days know the difference that in a game its cool to act like an idiot at GW stores (the staff encourage it) and shoot, maim and kill your enemy troops, and games its just a game. Yet rape is a whole new issue more serious.
Letting kids understand the implications of the psychological damage it causes and in this case of this scenic diorama, it shows how we act. Leave the adult content of this issue until there more mature to understant it.

But all this is just my thoughts after all. Me i voted NO, not because its a great paint work, but because of the issue it shows.

[Brass Scorpion]

First, with all the horrible pop-ups and other crap at CMON the past few years, I can't believe people still go there. I almost never go to that site any more, it's just terrible. I made an exception today for this topic after reading some of the comments here. I should have stayed away entirely.


For me, i dont agree at all with this, i find it sickening to see and if i ever had the pleasure to meet the artist i would rightfully tell him so. Im intitled to my feelings, just as he/she is to his creative works, yet i would say this sickens me.Well said. To me it looked like one of the most gratuitously exploitative things I've seen in a while, certainly ever when it comes to Warhammer. In spite of all the darkness and horror of 40K it's usually cloaked in comic-book type presentation and escapist fun. There's nothing escapist or fun about that. And it did not look like it was done to present the horror of the situation, but rather as prurient garbage. I'm guessing the artist of that one has never thought much about or actually known a real crime victim or empathized with the real victims of real war atrocities.

Sadly, I'm not sure I approve of this forum topic either. For one, it just gives publicity to something that probably shouldn't have ever had it. Second, given the nature of some of the people on this or any other forum, does anyone ever really want to be discussing something like this here? It's fraught with hazards. There are a lot of jerks out there and this type of thing will sure bring them out of their holes to add some further unpleasantness to the situation.

[Gotthammer]

Prettymuch agreeing with Sister Rosette.
I also don't like it as using GW figures with their ridiculous proportions and cartoony faces prettymuch sucks any sort of realism that is required (IMO) for such a scene to carry across as a serious message. For me the figures make the scene look... 'silly' is the best word I can think of, like some trashy 80's RPG artwork best forgotten rather than an attempt to show some of the true horrors of war.

[Thorsson]

I voted for "If you can accept violence you can accept this".

Aside from being an excellent diorama it also shows a side that 40k doesn't show too often. As eldargal stated, 40k isn't all heroes and daemons locked in a epic combat, huge tanks destroying whole regiments, and spacecraft waging war amongst the stars. There are things going on behind the scenes that would make many people turn away.

Just say your Litany of Insertion and pray the Commissar does not see you.

I am the kind of person who adds humor to every situation so excuse that.

I am not in any way saying that rape is acceptable, but it is an unfortunate part of warfare in OUR world.
40k is grimdark, this is grimdark. But standing by all the other people who said so, there are kids who play this game and view the same miniatures adults do, this is too inappropriate until they are old enough to understand such themes.

[Brass Scorpion]

See the last paragraph in my earlier post. I rest my case. :(

[Thorsson]

Excuse me for adding the joke. Honestly thats the way I am in all situations and I didn't and don't mean to make anyone upset.

[Lerra]

As a piece of art, I have no problem with this. Anything that gets people to talk about about rape as a problem and not as a joke is a good thing in my opinion.

If this was a gaming piece, or if it was brought to a gaming event, I would have more a problem with it, and I would question the motivations behind creating it. There are some creepy and mentally-unhealthy people in the 40k world, and the kind of person who would flaunt a piece like this as a toy would disturb me.

But, as near as I can tell, this is intended as a display piece or an artistic piece, and I don't see how it's much different from other disturbing imagery like what you'd see in some art museums.

[Brass Scorpion]

Excuse me for adding the joke. Honestly thats the way I am in all situations and I didn't and don't mean to make anyone upset.
If you wanted to be taken seriously in the rest of your comments, the completely tasteless "joke" should have been omitted. You might want to think twice and show some restraint next time. Take it from someone who has also at times had to learn the hard way that saying everything you think isn't always a good idea, restraint usually works out better than stream of consciousness. I wish I'd learned that lesson a bit earlier in life myself.

As for the piece, I still think it was done as a prurient and tasteless excuse to paint a topless female model. There are certainly less potentially hurtful and artistic presentations for nude models, but they were eschewed in favor of something lurid and exploitative instead.

[MaltonNecromancer]

In war, women are raped. In the Vietnam war, American soldiers had the euphemistic phrase "double veteran", which denoted a soldier who had raped a Vietnamese girl (any age) then killed her immediately afterwards. Official US combat doctrine states time and again that female combatants captured by any kind of enemy force will experience rape as part of her incarceration. Sometimes to death .

It's one of the sickening facts of life (and yet another reason for my continuing misanthropy), and while it says some very unpleasant things about the human race, it's not surprising in the slightest. A cursory glace at the ways war is conducted, and the whole "what happens in the field stays in the field" code of omerta that soldiers generally cling to clearly shows this to be true.

Is it appropriate for 40K? Well, it's a facet of war. 40K's version of war is a fantasy - a pure, ridiculous fantasy. Look at the number of swords!

The dissonance of seeing an ugly part of hard reality represented in such a high fantasy setting is certainly jarring. I actually find the diorama quite powerful as a result. It's a very clever way of getting across such a horrific thing. My complaint would be that the exposed breasts are somewhat prurient, but then, maybe that piece of nudity is what makes the scene so disturbing. I certainly don't like it.

I don't think arguments about whether she'll escape or not are helpful, Xas; she's a woman at the mercy of men - whether they rape her or not, there's trauma there. Horrible, horrible trauma.

Is rape horrific? Well, obviously. Does it happen in war? Yes, all the time, by soldiers from every army that's ever fought, simply because they could - sometimes because they were part of a special battallion designed to do just that (let's not forget that General Pinochet had specially trained "rape dogs" that were used to torture enemy combatants). Is it appropriate for 40K? Well, as with all things, that's a matter of taste. I wouldn't make something like that, but I don't see why someone shouldn't. If you want to pretend war is about goodies versus baddies and that "our soldiers" (i.e.: the soldiers from the same particular geographical location that happened to be born in / the ones ideologically aligned with me) are all heroes, well, fair enough - I have always found ignoring the truth of a situation to be quite distasteful. Some soldiers are heroes. Lots of soldiers rape. There is an overlap between the two groups.

Ultimately, war is a series of atrocities that continues until it's over. As for this piece, overall, I agree with Lerra. As a piece of artistic expression, it's fine. As anything else, it's on the ugly side of exploitative. It could also be argued that the very fact it has fostered this discussion shows that it works as a piece of art.

[Thorsson]

Yes I made a joke and yes it was tasteless, but I can say what I please. It may make people angry at me but you can't be friends with everyone. Also this is the interwebs, very few places are safe from the unmitigated hate and tasteless jokes.

Aside from the tasteless jokes...


As for the piece, I still think it was done as a prurient and tasteless excuse to paint a topless female model. There are certainly less potentially hurtful and artistic presentations for nude models, but they were eschewed in favor of something lurid and exploitative instead.

Im gonna have to disagree. If this was an excuse to paint a topless model this person would not have spent well over $100 to get the materials needed. This is a piece of art doing exactly what it is supposed to do, evoke peoples raw emotion and cause controversy. This is showing the side of 40k that is never seen, the actions of soldiers between the epic battles.

[Duke]

Due to the naturally sensitive nature of this topic I am moving this thread to the Oubliette. Also, I should remind everyone that this could quickly get out of control, so choose your words wisely.

Duke

[Lockark]

I like this diorama. It opens your eyes to the fact that War isn't a bunch of sunshine and Apple Blossoms. War is Ugly.

[Xas]

I don't think arguments about whether she'll escape or not are helpful, Xas; she's a woman at the mercy of men - whether they rape her or not, there's trauma there. Horrible, horrible trauma.


I was never trying to say that the situation wouldnt be traumatic to a human beeing.
Nor do I want to impose any sort of "racial barrier" with her beeing eldar (even though you could if you wanted to interpret even more into the diorama).

What I was trying to say before I let my 40k-fantasies take over (and turn it into an action film-script) was that even the severe trauma of actual rape cannot compare to the other horrors that are present in the grimdark universe, broadly accepted and even joked about (just search for inquisitorial/comissar jokes).


How would you people react if this piece of art would picture a hurling Bloodthirster about to kill a human mother, helplessly covering to shield her baby from the monster with her own body?

And what if it was a male protecting his child instead?

How would you feel if you were a crewman of an orbital shuttle and you had the luck to be in orbit, undected so far and had to witness an Imperial Navy military vessel execute an Exterminatus on your hoeworld?
Were you had family and friends you loved?
I'm going to stop here because the examples are without end and the details really do not matter.


I think you are right if you say this piece doesnt belong on the gameing table or in a gameing store.
Art doesnt belong to playing games as it is a more serious issue. This piece of art uses the issue of rape (which most people are not so truncated about as general violence) to lift the curtain between fiction and reality a tiny bit.

I dare not say if confronting people with the "reality" of their fiction is good or not but the more I think about it, the more I see both points of view.


If you complete the cycle of thought and have the nerves to stand it trough however it yields you... hope!
Hope because our real world is better than the fictional world we play our games in. So much better that we as people are still able to care and discuss about the misfortune of one single living beeing.

Think about it. And then the next time when you are sensing some kind of wrongdoing dont look away. If YOU as a single person started combating unjustice on a personal level in time the others would do it as well.
But if you just look away, everyone will do so and in time there will be Bloodthirsters out and killing people in the streets...

[Thorsson]

Good point Xas. There are a myriad of other horrors that are present in the 40k world that this piece really makes you think about.

I would also like to apologise to everyone for what I said.
Brass Scorpion Thank you for the advice and I will definitley take what you said to heart. Sorry.

[Aldramelech]

Art is of course subjective. Not everybody is going to like everything and it is all a matter of personal taste.

Ive seen far worse (IMO), I work at a large college and we have a campus just for the art students. Every year they display their work and one year a Homosexual student displayed some of his photography work. This mainly involved black and white pictures of him performing sex acts on another man. Acceptable? Not to me but apparently no problem for the art facualty.

[Faultie]

Acceptable? Not to me but apparently no problem for the art facualty.
Probably about as offensive to you as your spelling might be to the English department. :D

^JOKE!^
Just hoping to lighten the mood in here.
:D

[Kieranator K82]

If it makes you feel better, these Guardsmen are likely to be executed. I'm sure fornicating with an alien species is strictly prohibited by Imperial law. Some Commissar is gonna have a party!

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Well it doesnt matter that they may get executed, or there may be a bunch of pathfinders on there way or anything that May be the case.

If we accept this and allow it and others to polute our hobby what's next?
We accept that in 40k there are horrors committed, but its a hobby, fictional and supposed to be fun, we censor that level of atrocity from our game so we dont hurt others, become total jack a@#'s, and become depraved morons.

If my opponent turned up with this peice, i would be appalled and the day i get an opponent start telling me what his army is going to do to my Sisters of Battle is the day i find out how far i can shove is HQ miniature up his nose. I dont mind someone telling me how they killed my miniatures, its acceptable level of violence, when you go into how there gong to rape well thats to far for me.
There is a place for fun, light humour, and dark horror, but 40k is no place to start to go into the real horrors and atrocities we adults know happens in war.
If you want that level well go play Dark Heresy.

[Grailkeeper]

First time I've ever had a thread end up here, I hope you guys don't think I'm a troll.

[DarkLink]

Don't worry about it, they just moved it here because it isn't really about 40k. The models may be 40k, but the issue really isn't, so they stuck it in the non-40k specific discussion area.



We accept that in 40k there are horrors committed, but its a hobby, fictional and supposed to be fun, we censor that level of atrocity from our game so we dont hurt others, become total jack a@#'s, and become depraved morons.


Yeah, cause I'm totally going to go chainsaw someone right now. If Khorne Berzerkers can do it, so can I:rolleyes:.

I like what this guy says about video games: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell. Word of warning, if you're a politically correct, sensitive type, you probably won't like this guy very much.

[eldargal]

It needs to be remembered that this is just a diorama someone put together, its not going to be in WD, its not going to get particularly widespread attention, so its hardly going to ruin the hobby anymore than some of the 40k 'art' you can find on the internet will.
As an example, when I was looking for Howling Banshee artwork to help a friend with Banshee sculpt, I came accross a drawing of a dying Eldar being raped while the guardsman gloated about it. That is much, much worse than this diorama, but its hardly going to spoil the hobby for me.
This diorama, on the other hand, is making people reflect on the nature of 40k and warfare and that is not a bad thing, in my opinion.

[Gotthammer]

If we accept this and allow it and others to polute our hobby what's next?

...

There is a place for fun, light humour, and dark horror, but 40k is no place to start to go into the real horrors and atrocities we adults know happens in war.
If you want that level well go play Dark Heresy.

I think FATAL would be more appropriate :/

[rustbucket]

I think it is suficive to say that this piece has done a good job of spurring the debate over the modelers implied or unimplied themes depicted, and for what we socially feel about war and its associated atrocities. There is nothing jovial about this topic, be it depicted in miniature or otherwise. We as a group of hobby enthusiests walk that fine line of what is moral and tasteful when we build a model or diorama, and I have to say that for me I feel this scene has crossed the line. I would question the potential mental state of the modeler if I were to walk into their place and saw it on a display shelf or a mantle. Thought obviously went into how they wanted to position figures and what they would be doing in the scene. It definitely makes me uncomfortable and I don't think I would want to hang out with that person anymore. There are some individuals out there who do not find problems with this diaorama but I for one can't stand for it. For those who can find justification in the fact that it has happened in the past, that still doesn't make it right to model such a scene, and I would feel the same if it were diorama of a commissar executing a prisoner or models lined up against a wall about to be executed by firing squad. There are some facets of warfare that just do not need to be explored in our hobby. It has happened in our past, but that doesn't mean that it need to be represented. On a very personal note, I prevented a female friend from being gang rapped after being druged by a group of enlisted men a few years ago. She was fine one minute and almost on the floor the next being dragged out by them. It would have been easy to "mind my own business" but nobody in that situation ever should, so I didn't... it was a very intense and scary situation that I hope to never have to be in again and would rather be in another firefight or knife fight than deal with that situation again. One more thing before I get off my soapbox and go calm down, having been a Marine, and my other fellow Marines, sailors, and soldiers on here can attest to this, if you are found out to have committed an act like this or of any other sort, you will be brought up on charges and you will pay the price (small infractions such as smoking pot landed a Sgt I knew in the brig for 6mo, reduction in rank to pvt, forfiture in pay, and a dishonorable discharge) without hesitation! No question... Sorry all for getting so worked up on this. As you were, that is all.

[Chugosh]

Fantastic conversion and painting. Horrifying subject matter.

[MarneusCalgar]

Please, USA people, can you explain me why you all mostly disapprove this scene and don´t even do the same when it comes about violence??

It´s the other face of some thing your politics love to do: war... Not the pretty face, just the ugly one, the one hidden to the eyes of everyone, but just war. War that has happened since man walks along the Earth. From Year 0 to 41st century...

[scadugenga]

Please, USA people, can you explain me why you all mostly disapprove this scene and don´t even do the same when it comes about violence??

It´s the other face of some thing your politics love to do: war... Not the pretty face, just the ugly one, the one hidden to the eyes of everyone, but just war. War that has happened since man walks along the Earth. From Year 0 to 41st century...

I can't say for everyone, but I can say for myself.

1st: You're 15. I'm going to guess you've never been personally exposed to rape. You have, I'm guessing, been exposed to violence in the media from cartoon antics to R rated movies. There's some theory of "desensitization" going on. You may have played cowboys & indians, war, or cops & robbers as a kid. Play violence. "Bang bang" "I got you!" "No you didn't!" Kid stuff that goes on just about everywhere. However, I'm guessing you never played "play rape." I sincerely hope no one has. That possibility makes me shudder.

2nd: I've worked jobs that brought me in to situations where I was the first responder to a rape. It's not pretty. It's one of the few truly soul-destroying acts you can perpetrate on another human being. I've had friends who were drugged at frat parties and assaulted. I've seen one of them turn from a bright, outgoing happy woman to someone dead inside. Someone incapable of even being touched by a male over the age of puberty without flinching, or in some cases running away from the room. Rape isn't about sex. It's about power. Specifically, taking that power away from someone in about the most humiliating way possible.

3rd: My wife used to work for SA/AS (Sexual Assault/Abuse Services) in college. Here's a funny note (at least in the US) about the legal system as it applies to rape victims: They continue to be the victim. District/State's Attorneys don't like to file rape charges. They like taking them to trial even less. Why? Because in the majority of cases, it is very difficult to prove the attacker guilty. And in many cases, the DA pressures the victim not to press charges. So their power is robbed yet again. Don't believe Law & Order SVU--that's pure fiction. The reality is that the rape victim is often victimized by the very legal system that is supposed to protect and represent them. Again, why? Because District Attorneys are not appointed--they're elected. And to get elected, they need to prove that they can win cases. Rape cases are very hard to win, therefore they don't like taking them to trial.

So that's my objection in a nutshell. I've witnessed the aftereffects of rape--from a job standpoint, and in my personal life. I can think of almost no more heinous act that one person can perpetrate against another. (And male rape victims are more prevalent than you would think--it just goes unreported even more often than female rape cases.)

If/when, as you grow older, you come into close contact with a rape victim--I want you to look back on your question here, and think about how you would react had you the experience of your older self. I'm not trying to play the age angle on this--but your question really shows your young age and relatively benign life experiences. And before you take that wrongly--that is a good thing. Kids should have time to be care-free and be kids. They shouldn't have to have real-life experience with this kind of horror.

Nobody I know (and could respect) would be able to treat rape in a cavalier manner and attitude.

All this being said--the diorama certainly qualifies as art, and it should remain so. I just completely disagree/disapprove of the subject matter on a personal level.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well man, I am 29 y. old and I´ve also seen post rape victims, a pair of friends of mine and also my sister follow the paths of Sigmund Freud and I´ve seen their patients sometimes...

I´m not telling raping is good or ok, for god´s sake. It´s a horrible thing always. You´ve answered me but by the wrong way...

Please explain me why in some states like Texas there are shooting fairs where fathers take their little children and teach them how to shoot REAL weapons with REAL AMMO and by the other hand you take the flag ot purithanism when it comes about nudity...

That was the quid of my question, as a non USA citizen but also a human being

If you have curiosity, other sites where the same debate is open:

http://www.terrasomnia.com/40000/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14168

http://www.spanish-team.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=13432&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Those above are IN SPANISH

http://www.wamp-forum.com/VB4/showthread.php?5504-Taboo-Subjects-in-Mini-Paining

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?44155-Alien-Contact-Controversial-Subject-matter.

http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30265&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[DadExtraordinaire]

No excuses for this shocking illustration of an atrocious and extremely wicked crime. This is not needed to show off painting skills. This would fall under the obscene act and I am sure someone will be reporting it to the authorities.

As for the idiots both on here and Coolminiornot and elsewhere let me make this loud and clear: This is not the same as playing wargames or painting wargame models and figures.

What this shows is a vulnerable person about to be horribly and despicably forced to commit an act that they would not want to happen. This is portraying a brutal and heinous crime about to be committed. I feel sorry for Nakatan he obviously needs to see a psychiatrist as soon as possible. I’m sure when the Police call round he can explain it to them.

Rape, the portrayal of rape, or even the mere suggesting it, is the same thing – it’s obscene and disgusting and to allow minors to view this in the context of a safe environment i.e. playing and painting models and figures in a pleasant hobby is abhorrent.

And for those who 'claim' to know rape victims etc and seem to be experts on soldiers in battle or had taken to time to speak to these two sets of people, you will find the same view: rape is the most vile, cowardly act to be committed and shame on you thinking or suggesting otherwise, particularly the ill-advised comments about ‘how good his painting is…’ or ‘its about the scene and the detail of the brushwork’. They certainly would not support this in the context it was delivered and in particular a hobby aimed at the younger members of society.

And before any of you reply to me, think long and hard, as I have suddenly become very intolerant of gamers in this hobby after viewing some of the comments here and elsewhere published. There is nothing you can say that will convince me or any sane and upstanding members of the community from being persuaded that this is nothing but abhorrent.

Oh, one more point when this does reach the greater public through media (which it will) what sort of response do you think the hobby will receive? Certainly not one of empathy or support!

[scadugenga]

Well man, I am 29 y. old

My apologies. I believe I mistook you for Ultramarinefan who is, I believe, 15. It's the whole ultramarine thing...




Please explain me why in some states like Texas there are shooting fairs where fathers take their little children and teach them how to shoot REAL weapons with REAL AMMO and by the other hand you take the flag ot purithanism when it comes about nudity...

How does this have anything to do with your previous question? It's completely apples & oranges.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, DadExtraoirdinaire... So what are you still doing playing Warhammer 40K??

Because also Slaanesh or Dark Eldar are sadists and rapers... And war is eating the grim future of the game...

No one is defending rape here!! That´s not my intention. I only defend the artistic part of the work

[eldargal]

DadExtraordinaire, so do you find these unacceptable as well:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Florence_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women_1.jpg/450px-Florence_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women_1.jpg
http://nga.gov.au/international/catalogue/Images/LRG/23215.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V3LC1KCxI0A/SZMr0yWIf2I/AAAAAAAAAWY/pYgT9fFxbh4/s400/Bernini,+Rape+of+Persephone,+sculpture.JPG
http://gregcookland.com/journal/uploaded_images/picGoyaDisastersWar30-789648.jpg
http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/emma_thompson_rape_scene_says_trafficking_is_tortu re
Fact is this subject has a long history of artistic expression. Goya (last picture) in particular used his art to show the brutality of the French occupation of Spain by Napoleon. Nakatan is showing the brutal nature of war in the 41st millennium.

No one is going to contact the authorities, and if they do they will be told to sod off and stop wasting their time. Neither the police nor any other agency is going to give a damn about some diorama put together by some gamer somewhere.
This entire thing has been blown out of proportion. I'm not saying people shouldn't be offended by it, but the fact is for those of us who like to think of the 40k universe as a fully fledged world (beyond just a mechanicto facilitate wargames), this picture helps illustrate just how horrific a galaxy rife with perpetual war and xenophobia would be. It is not making light of it, nor treating it insensitively, in my opinion at least. Nor does someone being offended by it give them some kind of say in whether or not it should be created and displayed.

Bear in mind there are people out there who find wargaming as utterly abhorrent, it is easy for us to just think of it as a fun, harmless game but the hobby we love can easily be interpreted as glorifying war. Nakatans image reminds us that war, the inspiration for our hobby, is in fact, terrible. This is one of the reasons why there has been such a reaction to it, in my opinion.
The bottom line is the rape is implied, were this explicit it would certainly be unacceptable. But no rape is being shown, merely what we assume to be the prelude to it.

[MarneusCalgar]

Eldargal, just a remind, cause you´re naming one of our land´s best painters ever: Goya.

This is called: Saturn eating his children... and is on Prado Museum here in Madrid, Spain, beside other of our greatest artist´s works. It isn´t censored, and it doesn´t make apology of cannibalism...

http://www.artespain.com/wp-content/uploads/saturno_devorando_a_sus_hijos3.jpg

No spaniard like me, even being children, ran out when looking at this to eat a person like a zombie...

Also this, from Rubens... DadExtraordinaire... You think also this is wrong??

http://tusobras.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/paul-peter-rubens-venus-and-adonis3.jpg

[DadExtraordinaire]

DadExtraordinaire, so do you find these unacceptable as well:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Florence_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women_1.jpg/450px-Florence_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women_1.jpg
http://nga.gov.au/international/catalogue/Images/LRG/23215.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V3LC1KCxI0A/SZMr0yWIf2I/AAAAAAAAAWY/pYgT9fFxbh4/s400/Bernini,+Rape+of+Persephone,+sculpture.JPG
http://gregcookland.com/journal/uploaded_images/picGoyaDisastersWar30-789648.jpg
http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/emma_thompson_rape_scene_says_trafficking_is_tortu re
Fact is this subject has a long history of artistic expression. Goya (last picture) in particular used his art to show the brutality of the French occupation of Spain by Napoleon. Nakatan is showing the brutal nature of war in the 41st millennium.

No one is going to contact the authorities, and if they do they will be told to sod off and stop wasting their time. Neither the police nor any other agency is going to give a damn about some diorama put together by some gamer somewhere.
This entire thing has been blown out of proportion. I'm not saying people shouldn't be offended by it, but the fact is for those of us who like to think of the 40k universe as a fully fledged world (beyond just a mechanicto facilitate wargames), this picture helps illustrate just how horrific a galaxy rife with perpetual war and xenophobia would be. It is not making light of it, nor treating it insensitively, in my opinion at least. Nor does someone being offended by it give them some kind of say in whether or not it should be created and displayed.

Bear in mind there are people out there who find wargaming as utterly abhorrent, it is easy for us to just think of it as a fun, harmless game but the hobby we love can easily be interpreted as glorifying war. Nakatans image reminds us that war, the inspiration for our hobby, is in fact, terrible. This is one of the reasons why there has been such a reaction to it, in my opinion.
The bottom line is the rape is implied, were this explicit it would certainly be unacceptable. But no rape is being shown, merely what we assume to be the prelude to it.

Would I show those pictations of rape to my children - the answer is no.

I really couldn't care less for any subtle defense of the diorama or other pictures. I have already stated it was done in the wrong context - if it was say created for a charity to help rape victims maybe and that is a big maybe.

As for someone complaining to the authorites - people have done that on a lot less a situation regatrding GW in the States. I certainly wont be wasting anymore time on the issue. We have laws in place for a reason particularly in terms of porngraphic or sensitive issues such as this. I cannot see where the age controls are in terms of coolminiornot, but they like anyone else in the publishing / media business have to abide by those laws.

My daughter was raped last year and she has not left school yet. It was in the press and I will not speak of it here in detail, suffice to say I am entitled to my opinion as are you.

But rape or implied rape is the same.

[eldargal]

DadExtraordinaire, I've never said that your opinion is wrong or that you should think differently, I'm not so stupid as that. My opinion differs, but neither of us have the right to restrict the dissemination of art however offensive we may find it.
I am very sorry to hear about your daughter, you both have my heartfelt sympathies, for what its worth.

[Denzark]

Is this acceptable? Ha.

In society, the laws normally reflect what is acceptable in that society, the punishments also reflect how serious that offence is.

Given that murder is, in most places I am acquainted with the law of, the most serious crime, and given that we have viewed uncounted millions of diorama's showing murder, assault, bayonetings, Kharn eviscerating people, Roughrider explosive lances blowing the entrails out of an Ork, I can't get my Alan Whickers in a twist about this.

Not to denigrate victims of sexual assault of any sex, and I can see how it may be close to the bone to persons with personal experience.

But, having said that, I think it is somewhat morally bankrupt to not bat an eyelid about ALL diorama's depicting crimes against the person, and support younger players in a game about killing, destruction, and mass xenocide, and take offence to this.

Awesome painting as well.

What I do have a problem with is everyone knows those filthy xenos wenches of the Eldar have green nipples.