Some 2011 rumours (GK, Necrons, 'nids 2nd wave)

[eldargal]

From Stickmonkey on Warseer:


Hello Boys and Girls and Merry Christmas!

So the grey knight rumors are hitting fast, it looks like we will see them as the first 40k army of 2011. I have mixed feelings over what I've been hearing, a very lot of it directly conflicts things I know for a fact. But I cant call those items out specifically yet, I'm sorry...NDAs suck sometimes.

However, I have some new tidbits that I can share.

Looks like the dead machines may rise again in 2011. I have good information that Necrons should see a revision following GK. What I have heard:

New Codex drops mid year.
WBB changes to FNP for "most" units
New HQ options include "One" new C'Tan. Nightbringer and Deceiver to get new models...and at least one will have optional "incarnations"
New Tomb Spider plastic model. option to create alternate model that is Heavy artillery.
New fast cc focus unit. jump infantry. warrior sized.
new models for immortals.
new "tank" - could be the TS based artillery just referenced from different source.
new MC walker - likely the rumored "Necronmancer" - may be HQ or Heavy-conflicting rumors here.
New plastic Lord with all options.
New named Lord metal blister
New Monolith option...not represented in models to be released.

Also, in other rumors, August is being banted about as Tyranid 2nd wave. To include:
Doom blister
Tyrannofex plastic with options to build as Tervigon - unreliable rumor as to the optional build, but I'm throwing it in
Harpy
Tyranid direct only lashwhip bonesword upgrade blister for warriors
"yrmgarll?" direct only genestealer blister...like flashgit model, one pose, direct only.

On the flyer front. Theres a rumor of a thunderbolt fighter in design for plastic...from the sound its very early, and if other rumors are true of a "flyer" WD supplemental release, it would not make that cut.

As always, my rumors are typically far off and subject to change. but so far ive got a better hit to miss ratio...hopefully GK wont ruin my record...

Cheers
Enjoy

So I'm hoping 2011 is GK, Necrons, SoB. Tau if they can fit in after SoB.

[Deadlift]

If all the Necron model rumours are true then i will be a very happy man :D

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

I have a very good feeling that the Necrons are due for a new edition next year.

[DrLove42]

Nothing more on DE 2nd wave then?

[UltramarineFan]

With the rumoured release of IA Badab War Part 2 in Jan it might be interesting to see if one could make an exorcist army from the GK codex (what with them supposed to be an anti-daemon chapter like the GK)

[miteyheroes]

With the rumoured release of IA Badab War Part 2 in Jan it might be interesting to see if one could make an exorcist army from the GK codex (what with them supposed to be an anti-daemon chapter like the GK)

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping!

[fuzzbuket]

yeah i was dissapointed in the fluff the exrocists had a 99:1?? k/D ratio against a daemon world as GK sucssesors yet they were in a vanilla marine dex and were lame :(

[DarkLink]

With the rumoured release of IA Badab War Part 2 in Jan it might be interesting to see if one could make an exorcist army from the GK codex (what with them supposed to be an anti-daemon chapter like the GK)

I doubt it. Exorcists still use mostly standard SM equipment, as opposed to having storm bolters and force weapons standard.

[Maelstorm]

Here's to hoping they don't drop WBB and replace it with vanilla FNP - also to hoping they make Necron Lord abilities army wide (ala. Space Marines) instead of a 6" radius.

I'd raise a glass in toast if they simply add FNP to Necron models that don't currently have WBB (ie. Pariah and Tomb Spyder).

If a Necron walks across dangerous terrain and stumbes with FNP, it is removed from the board. Undying eons-old warriors, eh?!

[DarkLink]

FNP is a USR that performs exactly the same function as WBB. The details differ a little, but that gets balanced out with the Res Orb. No reason to retain an arbitrary distinction between rules that only differ in details. There are times when slapping a USR onto a unit is a lazy way of making it better. This is not one of those times. USRs exist because they are universal. There's not point in having a rule that works almost exactly the same, except in a few details that make it more complicated.

And while WBB may be more powerful than FNP (depending on the situation), remember that the rest of a brand new codex will be much more potent than it currently is. So no whining about how more stuff will ignore FNP vs WBB when you're getting an actual decent codex.

[Lerra]

It's hard to say much without knowing the rest of the codex, either. FNP instead of WBB might not be so bad, especially Tomb Spyders and Res Orbs can still enhance WBB/FNP. Maybe the new res orb means that FNP can't be negated. There may also be army-wide mechanics on top of FNP, but we have no idea what they are yet. We'll have to wait to see how it all comes together.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Heres hoping differnet lords change the force Org! I want my wraith army dammit.

[Limey El'Jonson]

From Stickmonkey on Warseer:



So I'm hoping 2011 is GK, Necrons, SoB. Tau if they can fit in after SoB.

A chum of mine has friends at FW. Noises are the plastic Thunderhawk is "finished". As in ready.

[Nosmo75]

From Stickmonkey on Warseer:



So I'm hoping 2011 is GK, Necrons, SoB. Tau if they can fit in after SoB.

Hopefully August will be the 2011 release slot for Tau, which means all *this* could be released:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/09/40k-rumors-tau.html

But I really don't understand the bit that says 'battlesuits could be getting interchangeable arms similar to Killa Kanz'. How do the current battlesuit models *not* have interchangeable arms? =S

[Brass Scorpion]

A chum of mine has friends at FW. Noises are the plastic Thunderhawk is "finished". As in ready. That is one model I wouldn't think twice about, except maybe whether or not I was buying it at least twice. Baneblades got me hooked on large models for Warhammer. A Thunderhawk would be a must have kit and maybe more than one.

[Nosmo75]

FNP is a USR that performs exactly the same function as WBB. The details differ a little, but that gets balanced out with the Res Orb. No reason to retain an arbitrary distinction between rules that only differ in details. There are times when slapping a USR onto a unit is a lazy way of making it better. This is not one of those times. USRs exist because they are universal. There's not point in having a rule that works almost exactly the same, except in a few details that make it more complicated.

And while WBB may be more powerful than FNP (depending on the situation), remember that the rest of a brand new codex will be much more potent than it currently is. So no whining about how more stuff will ignore FNP vs WBB when you're getting an actual decent codex.

How is having FNP better than keeping WBB? FNP is a generic USR that provides models with an extra save to make them more survivable, whereas WBB allows models to be brought back to life again and again, just like the fluff says. =S

[DarkLink]

From a gameplay perspective, USRs exist specifically so that GW can avoid having a half dozen different variations of the same basic rule. WBB is so similar to FNP from this perspective, at least by its current wording, that there is no reason not to roll them up into one rule. That's the whole purpose of USRs. And while there may be some cases where a unique special rule would be better than to use a USR, this is not one of those cases.

From a fluff perspective, FNP represents any model that can take more damage than it normally could, for whatever reason. Be it because the model is inured to pain (plague Marines), or made of self-repairing metal that just won't die (necrons), FNP completely encompasses the driving ideal behind WBB. Even if the rules were not an abstraction of the fluff, there is no conceptual difference in the fluff between WBB and FNP.

[eldargal]

Well I'd say we are more likely to see SoB in August and Tau in November or early 2012 if the current rumours hold true.


Hopefully August will be the 2011 release slot for Tau, which means all *this* could be released:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/09/40k-rumors-tau.html

But I really don't understand the bit that says 'battlesuits could be getting interchangeable arms similar to Killa Kanz'. How do the current battlesuit models *not* have interchangeable arms? =S

[DrLove42]

Sounds like Novembers my wargaming month....

Nov 2011 - DE
Nov 2012 - Tau
Nov 2013....Craftworlders? Although i really don't want to have to wait 2 more years!

Additionally!!!

Although looking at all the rumours...with crons, GK, tau and sisters...GW having to do xenos-imperial-xeno-imperial launches gives DA and BT a chance of showing up soon. According to my internal count that would push Eldar as being the Oldest current codex in the line....

[Melissia]

Well I'd say we are more likely to see SoB in August and Tau in November or early 2012 if the current rumours hold true.

As it should be really . Tau need an update, but at least they're a fourth edition codex.

It's good to see new rumors again instead of discussing the same old ones.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

They should add in that i'd like at some point for DA's to be upgraded too, i feel they got a let down from GW in that they got shafted with a codex, and then they brought out 5th ed with a shiny new SM codex that just made a mockery of new toys, rules and wargear that totally weakened Dark Angels.

Tau are still very up there for competitiveness, so it would be sad to see them get priority over older codex's.

[DrLove42]

Tau are still very up there for competitiveness, so it would be sad to see them get priority over older codex's.

Have you played Tau recently? They only really have 1 competitve build and have a codex full of other rubbish....

Where DA, yes they've been screweda bit, but worst comes to worst they can still "count as" blood angels, space wolves or vanillas. Yes they lose their individual flavour, but they have 3 sets of rules to choose from, 2 of which are the upper echelons of power.

[Maelstorm]

<drags out soap box>

Nerfing WBB into FNP is just plain lazy, period. Spending 60 minutes with knowledgable players to update WBB language to 5th edition rules is a no-brainer.

My single biggest complaint: FNP is popping up in EVERY new codex (watch for it in the Grey Knights), the main thing that made Necrons special (besides phase-out) will be going main-stream USR Vanilla.

Every space marine unit in every codex will have access to weapons to insta-kill any Necron at range. With Necrons limited to weapons with a maximum range of 36" it will be the Marines turn to play keep-away (ala, Destroyers) and insta-kill Necrons at range (ie. Long-Fangs, Razorback Spam, etc).

What makes FNP special? Blood Angels can quickly write a 1500 point roster to put it on EVERY unit, not A character or A unit, EVERY unit in a 1500 point roster. With a complete FNP list, Blood Angels become Necrons, only with better stats, powerful chracters (ever assault Mephiston with the C'tan Nightbringer? Embarrasing) a wide variety of weapons and access to transports.

Constructive advice for GW

WBB stays with 5th edition updates to the language
Fearless and Stubborn for all Necrons.
Gauss = Rending
The C’tan need Eternal Warrior
Necron Lord BS/WS/I 5
Necron Lord purchased powers are army-wide, (simialr to most Space Marine Characters).
Pariah’s need a 4+ invulnerable save and 2 attacks. If you feel you must give a Necron FNP – use it here.
Give the Wraiths Rending and a Power Weapon option. Unit size 1-5
Make the Flayed Ones a Troop choice and give them Rending.
Hi-tech eternal robots should have Night Vision (On the internet today for under $150)
Hit and Run for Scarabs (my favorite unit) would be hilarious!
Twin-Linked Heavy Destroyers, unit size 1-5, with a Tank Hunters option. And for goodness sake, give Heavy Destroyers a longer range than a heavy bolter!

Okay, I’ll step down from my soap-box.

Hopefully someone from GW is reading…..

[Drew da Destroya]

USR's exist to make the game more streamlined, like it or not. The current end result of WBB is very similar to fnp... on a 4+, your model isn't dead. It's just a more convoluted version of the simple USR. There's no reason to have two very similar rules in the game, when one will do.

Now, if the Res Orb can prevent FNP from being removed via instant death/ap1 or 2, the Tomb Spider and Monolith provide some other fnp-buffing ability, and Warriors get buffed to a T5 base (so Str 8 no longer instant-deaths), would that be good enough?

[Maelstorm]

Only if the Res Orb radius is the same as a Space Marine HQ/Character Buff radius = Army wide. If a Space Marine HQ/Character can make the entire army Fleet, Twin-Linked etc, why wouldn't the eons-old Necron HQ's have the same effect?

If they want to make it Vanilla FNP instead of taking 60 minutes to clean-up WBB, then make the Necron HQ buffs as capable army-wide as a Space Marine HQ. Any Necron HQ buff would apply to the entire army, not a near-useless 6" radius. Ever try to keep a 6" movement Tomb Spyder within 12" of your turbo-boosting 24" movement Destroyers or Wraiths? Might as well tie a leash to them and hobble them. It's even worse with a 6" radius Orb on a Necron Lord.

If you play 40k consistantly you understand that tying a 6" string from your 210 point HQ to your units severely limits effectiveness and makes the buff useless to the rest of your forces. If you put your Necron Lord with a group of Immortals and then send your Destoryers/Heavy Destroyers/Flayed Ones/Wraiths/Warriors more than 6" away you've completely lost the Lords effectiveness. If you tool-up your Lord into a Destroyer Lord to run with your Destroyers or Wraiths - the rest of your army is quickly punked/swept by a single deep-striking assault group. You're back to being hobbled by a 6" block formation around your HQ, hoping that your opponent forgot to bring any template weapons.

I appreciate that FNP USR is the easy way out (GW's big red EASY button?). I also see FNP being given like 5-cent candy to every new codex that comes out.

[Defenestratus]

If you play 40k consistantly you understand that tying a 6" string from your 210 point HQ to your units severely limits effectiveness and makes the buff useless to the rest of your forces.

My sanguinary priests and farseers don't seem to have a problem keeping up with the units they want to buff.

[Shotgun Justice]

If you play 40k consistantly you understand that tying a 6" string from your 210 point HQ to your units severely limits effectiveness and makes the buff useless to the rest of your forces.

I'd imagine that was the point

[DarkLink]

Only if the Res Orb radius is the same as a Space Marine HQ/Character Buff radius = Army wide. If a Space Marine HQ/Character can make the entire army Fleet, Twin-Linked etc, why wouldn't the eons-old Necron HQ's have the same effect?


Making an entire army of FNP models always get their FNP regardless of what they get shot with is significantly more powerful than most of the SM HQ/Character choices. And most people agree that Vulkan's Tactics is too good.

I could see a 12" bubble, or having more than just the HQ be able to take the res orb, however. Say, Tomb Spiders, or maybe some other Sanguinary Priest style unit, so you could spread out more.

[Maelstorm]

"My sanguinary priests and farseers don't seem to have a problem keeping up with the units they want to buff. "

As they should, since they're riding in the same Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, Land Raider and have the same movement rate, even when simply walking.

[DrLove42]

Yeah agreed. Not army wide

Army wide T5, FNP that isn't ignorable on every unit, all of which have rending weapons?

Maybe for 40pts per warrior....

And yes i agree FNP is handed out to willy nilly these days...but its always fluff justifiable...Blood Rage for DE and Death Company, Religious Fervour for Sang Priests...

[Maelstorm]

Right now Necrons have army-wide WBB and Gauss weapons (auto-glance on a 6). The Immortals (28 points) and better-left-at-home Pariahs (36 points) are already Toughness 5, I sincerely doubt they'll raise a Warriors toughness to 5. The Pariahs cost is close to Terminator levels for a 3+ armour save, 1 attack, no Inulnerable save and no WBB. How much is a single Death guard with FNP and a 3+ armour save? Hit by a unit of standard Assault Space Marines the "Elite" Pariahs fall like flies before they get a return attack (Init 3). What doesn't fall immediately gets swept at the end of the round. Would you pony-up Terminator point costs for that in your army? And to add insult to injury, charge $15 a figure for them?

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone with my views on FNP vs. WBB. I play Necrons week-in and week-out and truly understand the strategical impact of changing WBB to FNP will have on the Necron game. I get frustrated by non-Necron players espousing that there is virtually no difference between the two.

Example:
With standard WBB - A unit of 5 Necron Destroyers are shot by Space Marines (Devestators/Long-Fangs, etc) with Lascannons at 48", 4 Destroyers go down. The next turn 3 Destroyers get back up with WBB for a 4 Destroyer strong unit that will move up 12" and get 12 shots back into the unit that hit them, 3 dead Space Marines. Rinse and repeat.

With "it's virtually the same" Vaniilla FNP - A unit of 5 Necron Destroyers are shot by 4 Space Marines (Devestators/Long-Fangs, etc) with Lascannons at 48", 4 Destroyers go down and are removed from the game. The next turn the 1 Destroyer strong unit moves up 12" and gets 3 shots back into the unit that hit them, 0 dead Space Marines. The next turn the undamaged Space Marines put 4 Lascannon shots into the final Destoyer, wiping out the unit.

How is that "virtually the same"? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

PLEASE don't paint my Necrons with a plain Vanilla FNP paint brush because it's the "simple" solution for people who don't understand the difference.

[andrewm9]

Example:
With standard WBB - A unit of 5 Necron Destroyers are shot by Space Marines (Devestators/Long-Fangs, etc) with Missile Launchers and Krak Missiles at 48", 4 Destroyers go down. The next turn 3 Destroyers get back up with WBB for a 4 Destroyer strong unit that will move up 12" and get 12 shots back into the unit that hit them, 3 dead Space Marines. Rinse and repeat.

With "it's virtually the same" Vaniilla FNP - A unit of 5 Necron Destroyers are shot by 4 Space Marines (Devestators/Long-Fangs, etc) with Missile Launchers and Krak Missiles at 48", 4 Destroyers go down and are removed from the game. The next turn the 1 Destroyer strong unit moves up 12" and gets 3 shots back into the unit that hit them, 0 dead Space Marines. The next turn the undamaged Space Marines put 4 Krak missiles into the final Destoyer, wiping out the unit.

How is that "virtually the same"? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

PLEASE don't paint my Necrons with a plain Vanilla FNP paint brush because it's the "simple" solution for people who don't understand the difference.

In your example you realize that the Destroyers woudl get their FNP roll right? Destroyers are Toughness 5 so no instant death and Krak missiles are AP3, so that violates none of the rules for Feel No Pain hence they would get a roll.

[Ssyrie]

In your example you realize that the Destroyers woudl get their FNP roll right? Destroyers are Toughness 5 so no instant death and Krak missiles are AP3, so that violates none of the rules for Feel No Pain hence they would get a roll.

Actually, in both examples the Necron player would have 3 Destroyers next turn. With 4 guys going down, mathhammer says half (2) would make their WBB or FNP roll.

The real difference is if there is a second unit that fires at the Destroyers. With FNP, 2 of the Destroyers might have to make a second FNP roll that turn. With WBB, only the surviving Destroyer can be brought down. If he survives or the unit somehow qualifies for WBB rolls, they only have to roll 4+ once to not die.

[DarkLink]

And yes i agree FNP is handed out to willy nilly these days...but its always fluff justifiable...Blood Rage for DE and Death Company, Religious Fervour for Sang Priests...

And since Necrons already have a very FNP-like rule, it won't be like GW is slapping the name on. They're just tweaking an existing rule and changing the name a bit.


Right now Necrons have army-wide WBB and Gauss weapons (auto-glance on a 6). The Immortals (28 points) and better-left-at-home Pariahs (36 points) are already Toughness 5, I sincerely doubt they'll raise a Warriors toughness to 5. The Pariahs cost is close to Terminator levels for a 3+ armour save, 1 attack, no Inulnerable save and no WBB. How much is a single Death guard with FNP and a 3+ armour save? Hit by a unit of standard Assault Space Marines the "Elite" Pariahs fall like flies before they get a return attack (Init 3). What doesn't fall immediately gets swept at the end of the round. Would you pony-up Terminator point costs for that in your army? And to add insult to injury, charge $15 a figure for them?

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone with my views on FNP vs. WBB. I play Necrons week-in and week-out and truly understand the strategical impact of changing WBB to FNP will have on the Necron game. I get frustrated by non-Necron players espousing that there is virtually no difference between the two.


Yeah, well, all those complaints about cost and effectiveness of your units are completely irrelevant. A new codex will make them outdated since all your units will have new rules and points costs.

Remember, we're not talking about giving FNP to the units in the current codex. We're talking about giving FNP to the units in the next codex, where the unit rules and costs will be balanced with that consideration in mind.

[FullyPainted]

For what is worth I just prefer the use of universal rules. Would it be that difficult to say "All Necrons receive FNP regardless of AP or STR of weapon". That would make sense compared to most unit just not "feeling" the damage where the Necrons more rebuild.

[Maelstorm]

My apologies,Ii had Lascannons (AP2) on the brain when i wrote the post - I didn't go back and look-up the AP when I wrote down Krak missiles. :rolleyes:

The example I gave was from a 1500 point Murder Valley campaign battle against Space Wolves. My 2 units of 5 Destroyers were hit by a group of Long-Fangs with LasCannons. 4 of my destroyers went down in the first volley of fire from the Long-Fangs. When 3 got back up with WBB, he said - "if you had FNP they would have stayed down". It really hit me then that FNP is going to be a huge loss for Necrons.

Again, my apologies for dropping in Missile Launchers instead of Lascannons. Although - -

We haven't even talked about rending weapons from every race - which also denies a FNP roll but is completely ignored by WBB. Or, how about stumbling in dangerous terrain? No FNP roll allowed, with WBB the Necron can get back up. The nerfs keep adding up...

In summary: FNP for Necrons still sucks. :p

[eldargal]

Stickmonkey says there is more Dark Eldar coming, but he didn't mention it because he doesn't know anymore about it than anyone else. So looks like there might be a few second waves next year.

[DarkLink]

I think it's also worth noting that Stickmonkey has mentioned that he's under a NDA regarding the Grey Knights until they get released, so he's not allowed to say anything about them at all any more.

[eldargal]

Yes indeed, oh and apparently some stores have a list of Grey Knight 'talking points' or some such thing, with a picture of a plastic GK terminator on it. This rumour didn't come from Stickmonkey though.

[Maelstorm]

Yeah, well, all those complaints about cost and effectiveness of your units are completely irrelevant. A new codex will make them outdated since all your units will have new rules and points costs.

This is the same company that botched it and waited 8+ years to correct it. Give them Toughness 5? FNP is still denied every time by an Imperial guard with a 5 point plasma pistol.

Arguments against FNP: :mad:
2x-3x more ranged weapons from every race will insta-kill even the highest Toughness Necrons.
Rending weapons from every race will now insta-kill even the highest Toughness Necron
Failed terrain tests will insta-kill all Necrons - an eons-old, all-metal Immortal stumbles in terrain and collapses in a heap..?
FNP It is handed out like candy in every new Codex - Even soft-as-sponge Imperial Guard can take it.

To make FNP equivalent to current WBB they will have to:
Ignore low AP ranged weapons that cancel FNP
Ignore the effect of Rending weapons
Allow a save from failed terrain tests
Stop giving it out like 5 cent candy to every new codex.

Don't make it a requirement to have a 200+ point Necron Lord within 6" to ignore FNP nerfs.

In the fluff why would the Imperium worry about Necrons? Broadcast to all Space Marines / Imperial Guards that Plasma/Melta and Lascannons put them down in one shot and check Necrons off the naughty list.

[Defenestratus]

I think you have a very slanted view of what Necrons "should be" versus the balance of the game and the mechanics of the army.

A 6" bubble is pretty huge actually. I wouldn't complain at all about it affecting more than a single unit. If it does indeed give FNP buffs across the board then why would they even make it an option on the lord - just give them 2+ FNP across the board.

Your worries about "2x-3x more weapons would instakill even the highest toughness necrons" is also pretty unsubstantiated. About the only thing you'd really have to worry about would be plasma - which is the only thing off the top of my head that would be killing warriors if they had FNP vs WBB. Its really not all that bad, trust me. Also - being vulnerable to rending weapons - where do we see the majority of these weapons? Close combat. FNP Necrons in close combat would be a net bonus considering that you would get your additional 4+ save more often than nought vs WBB due to the sweep rule not affecting FNP. The only rending gun you really have to worry about would be assault cannons or frag cannons.

Failed terrain tests kill every other basic infantry model. Why would necrons be any different?

FNP is handed out like candy because its an easy rule to keep straight that makes a unit considerably tougher to all but heavy and some special weapons - which is how the necrons should be.


In the fluff why would the Imperium worry about Necrons? Broadcast to all Space Marines / Imperial Guards that Plasma/Melta and Lascannons put them down in one shot and check Necrons off the naughty list.

I think you're really blowing it out of proportion. How many of those weapons can realistically be taken in an opposing list? Why would space marines or IG be firing lascannons at Necron warriors or destroyers when they should be firing them at monoliths or C'Tan? Furthermore, being this concerned about the future of your codex is a bit premature considering that for all intents and purposes, the future is yet to be written.

[isotope99]

In the fluff why would the Imperium worry about Necrons? Broadcast to all Space Marines / Imperial Guards that Plasma/Melta and Lascannons put them down in one shot and check Necrons off the naughty list.

Enough plasma, melta and lascannons will put down pretty much anyone. My guess is that there will also be a points reduction for necron warriors in line with most other recent codexes.

[DrLove42]

Failed terrain tests kill every other basic infantry model. Why would necrons be any different?


This

Most dangerous terrain is dangerous for a simple reason....its f**king dangerous! Be it lava field, thin ice over a frozen lake, beastie occupied forests or a 30 foot cliff its going to kill/break anything that goes over it. A necron might not feel pain but being melted/smashed/eaten (mmm crunchy)/frozen is definently going to stop him in his tracks. Very little terrain is "dangerous" without good reason. Walking across a section of slightly rocky ground is not dangerous....it would be however for skimmers, jet bikes etc...so....

A destroyer/monothing going through terrain fails a dangerous terrain cos he flies into exposed rebar, or into a wall, or snags on something in the ground. That makes sense

[DarkLink]

Enough plasma, melta and lascannons will put down pretty much anyone. My guess is that there will also be a points reduction for necron warriors in line with most other recent codexes.

I think this is what Maelstorm is missing. GW's not just going to copy/paste the current units directly over, and then just edit out WBB and replace it with FNP.

This is going to be a brand new codex, with brand new rules and brand new units and brand new point costs.

Whether or not FNP is better or worse than WBB isn't really important, as all the new units will be priced accordingly based on their new rules. WBB/FNP isn't the only thing changing here.



I'll also point out that Necrons are only really bad in 5th ed. When the Necron codex came out, I understand that they were very powerful, though that was before I started playing so I don't know from personal experience.

[Kawauso]

This is the same company that botched it and waited 8+ years to correct it. Give them Toughness 5? FNP is still denied every time by an Imperial guard with a 5 point plasma pistol.

Arguments against FNP: :mad:
2x-3x more ranged weapons from every race will insta-kill even the highest Toughness Necrons.
Rending weapons from every race will now insta-kill even the highest Toughness Necron
Failed terrain tests will insta-kill all Necrons - an eons-old, all-metal Immortal stumbles in terrain and collapses in a heap..?
FNP It is handed out like candy in every new Codex - Even soft-as-sponge Imperial Guard can take it.

To make FNP equivalent to current WBB they will have to:
Ignore low AP ranged weapons that cancel FNP
Ignore the effect of Rending weapons
Allow a save from failed terrain tests
Stop giving it out like 5 cent candy to every new codex.

Don't make it a requirement to have a 200+ point Necron Lord within 6" to ignore FNP nerfs.

In the fluff why would the Imperium worry about Necrons? Broadcast to all Space Marines / Imperial Guards that Plasma/Melta and Lascannons put them down in one shot and check Necrons off the naughty list.


I'd like to take some time to dissect this a little.

"This is the same company that botched it and waited 8+ years to correct it. Give them Toughness 5? FNP is still denied every time by an Imperial guard with a 5 point plasma pistol."

Plasma pistols are 10 points in the Guard codex. Also, most of the models that can carry them are BS 3/4. And a pistol only fires one shot. And there's usually only one model in a given squad that can take one. And it could always overheat and kill the model firing it, any way. What are you complaining about again?

"Arguments against FNP: :mad:
2x-3x more ranged weapons from every race will insta-kill even the highest Toughness Necrons."

The highest-toughness Necrons are toughness 5, 6 and 7, referring to models based on the Immortal chassis, Spyders and Forgeworld's Tomb Stalker, respectively.
Immortal-based models receive instant death from strength 10 weapons only. So...rail guns, demolisher cannons and the like. Is that really a problem?
The Tomb Spyder/Stalkers can't even be instant death'd by anything at all, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
If you have a problem with the notion of a Necron Warrior being vapourised by something like a lascannon or a krak missile (which is designed to destroy a battle tank), I'm not sure there's anything a new codex could do to please you.

"Rending weapons from every race will now insta-kill even the highest Toughness Necron"

Necrons have always had a problem facing CC-oriented units (i.e. WBB is negated by power weapons, and units are not Stubborn or Fearless so they often get wiped out in a sweeping advance - again negating WBB), so I'm not sure this is as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

"Failed terrain tests will insta-kill all Necrons - an eons-old, all-metal Immortal stumbles in terrain and collapses in a heap..?"

Uneven ground is not dangerous terrain. Dangerous terrain is usually something like a minefield or a lava pit. Yes, lava destroys an eons-old Immortal. He shouldn't have stepped there.

"FNP It is handed out like candy in every new Codex - Even soft-as-sponge Imperial Guard can take it."

It's not handed out like candy; there's always a fluffy justification for its presence, i.e. medical personnel with first aid kits, narthecium gauntlets, a blood-crazed frenzy that borders on insanity, religious fervour driving people to greater feats of arms, etc.
Aside from the Blood Angels, how is it handed out like candy? 'Nids can get it for 'gaunts, but they have to stay within range of a big HQ, and aside from that...SM and IG command squads can get it. That's hardly something that's handed out 'like candy'.
Plus, the whole point of a "universal special rule" is to, you know, be universal and help streamline the game.
A streamlined game is a game that plays better.
Armies will always have a few rules here and there that are unique to them, but by and large the game would be a lot less convoluted if more armies took advantage of USRs...that's what USR's are supposed to be there for in the first place. And you know what? I'm glad a lot of 5th edition books look like they're leaning more toward that stance.
Feel No Pain is a rule that has a lot of possible fluffy explanations, so it's a rule that can easily make sense on a lot of units in a lot of armies.

I'm a long time Necron player, and while I would miss WBB, I can understand perfectly well why replacing it with FNP would make sense. It does almost the same thing and makes things easier for everyone to follow.

Besides, do you really suppose they'd ditch something like the Resurrection Orb? I doubt it. So if WBB is swapped for FNP, I'm sure the Orb will remain and will do something to make FNP work even better for the Necrons.
Because, you know, 'not dying' is what the Necrons do best. And if one thing is going to remain intact from the old codex, I bet you it will be that.



Last but not least:
"In the fluff why would the Imperium worry about Necrons? Broadcast to all Space Marines / Imperial Guards that Plasma/Melta and Lascannons put them down in one shot and check Necrons off the naughty list."

Guess what? Those weapons kill pretty much everything in one shot. But lascannons aren't anti-infantry so their application there is inefficient, and none of those weapons are standard-issue.
The only resource the Imperium has without limit is humanity, which is why they send endless waves of Guardsmen with crummy lasguns into battle.
Even Space Marines, the iconic heroes of humanity, are armed with boltguns as their standard-issue weaponry.

Necrons are frightening particularly because it takes something as powerful as a plasma gun to ensure they're dead, and plasma guns are arcane, dangerous weapons in short supply.

[lowdog]

This is going to be a brand new codex, with brand new rules and brand new units and brand new point costs.

Whether or not FNP is better or worse than WBB isn't really important, as all the new units will be priced accordingly based on their new rules. WBB/FNP isn't the only thing changing here.


I concur, and I also support Maelstrom's idea of making Gauss = Rending. Again, it streamlines the rules. You don't have to own the Necron codex and study WBB or Gauss. Everyone will already know what FNP and Rending do. Rending would be more powerful than current Gauss, so maybe that's worth the hit on downgrading to FNP.

Heck, i could even see giving necron infantry Slow and Purposeful, but increasing the availability of movement powers. Maybe Monoliths can teleport two units a turn, or one unit and still fire. Maybe some HQ choice will give more units deep strike.

[GrenAcid]

@up
Necrons with FnP/rending/SnP.......wait, they werent line that from the begginning? Slow, undying machines with guns that could shred a land rider?.....or im just reading fluff of some similar army?

Ill be OK with whatever GW trow at us....just dont make it underpriced like imperial(yes I belive new Imperial dexes are underpriced-flame on:p) codexes and we gonna do fine.

[Kawauso]

Ill be OK with whatever GW trow at us....just dont make it underpriced like imperial(yes I belive new Imperial dexes are underpriced-flame on:p) codexes and we gonna do fine.

The only thing that's really underpriced in the current books, I think, is the Vendetta. Should probably be at least around 180.

Everything else seems pretty reasonable to me.

[DarkLink]

Chimera's are too cheap.

In a void, Chimeras are well priced. However, when you look at the IG codex as a whole, they're underpriced.

Designer 1: "Well, ok, so we've got a bunch of tanks that can blow up just about anything from across the board. But it's balanced because they're fairly fragile and exposed, and if the other army gets in their lines it will be hard for the IG player to fight them off."

Designer 2: "Oh, hey guys. Just wanted to let you know that we adjusted the point cost on Chimeras, and you can now get a half dozen or so to use as mobile terrain and shield your army from the other army, even in fairly small games."

Designer 1: "Ah, well, who cares about balance. I'm an IG player anyways."



It should be noted that I don't actually think that IG are broken, just a little ...ahead of the curve, if you will.

[Kawauso]

I guess I hadn't thought about Chimeras; I'm not used to playing against competitively-geared armies, only hearing about them.

I don't think the price range is the issue with Chimeras, though.
I imagine if, say, all the firing points on a Chimera were lasgun-only (as they appear on the model), it would go some way towards mitigating part of the problems they seem to pose.

I don't know that the mobile cover they pose is that big a deal though; small marine squads in razorbacks can be churned out in about equal numbers.

Then again, like I said, I don't really play with people who min/max their lists. *shrug*

[DarkLink]

Having a wall of AV 12 blocking you from reaching all those artillery pieces tearing your army up is a pretty big problem, I'd say. You can't shoot them as the Chimeras block LOS, you can't assault them because the Chimeras are in the way, and by the time you do kill the Chimeras most of your army is gone.

The triple melta vet squads is a bit of a big slap in the face to most other armies troops, too. They give you a chimera to block LOS, can blow up almost any vehicle in the game, and are cheap enough to spam. Mix in a few plasma guns and they can deal with terminators and other tough units as well.

And, of course, the psyker battle squad makes stuff run away like nothing else.


This is all worst case scenario, of course, but this is generally how competitive mech guard works, in my experience. Not unbeatable, but very potent.

[Kawauso]

I wonder if the supposed "Summer of Fliers" will even things out, given the rumours that most armies will be getting fliers along the lines of the Valkyries/Stormraven?

Also, what about jump infantry? Aren't they a feasible solution to an armoured wall? And outflanking units? Infiltrators?
This may all sound noobish, but like I said, all my experience with competitive 40k is through hearsay.

[Melissia]

If you play 40k consistantly you understand that tying a 6" string from your 210 point HQ to your units severely limits effectiveness

My Canoness and Lady Commissar both say otherwise.

[Maelstorm]

Ah, yes. Doth M'lady Canoness and M'lady Commissar walk from the back of the board as a phalanx with their foot troops or ride in armoured comfort to the front lines?

I have yet to have the priveledge to see the Sisters of Battle on a 40k gaming table. I occasionally play them on the software version - tough as nails!

We'll have 14 generals show up every week at Gamers Sanctuary for a campaign, but never see Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle and rarely see Deamons. Mostly Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Vanilla Marines and Imperial Guard. My Necrons and my buddies 'Nids and Dark Eldar are the exception.

[Render Noir]

I concur, and I also support Maelstrom's idea of making Gauss = Rending. Again, it streamlines the rules. You don't have to own the Necron codex and study WBB or Gauss. Everyone will already know what FNP and Rending do. Rending would be more powerful than current Gauss, so maybe that's worth the hit on downgrading to FNP.

Heck, i could even see giving necron infantry Slow and Purposeful, but increasing the availability of movement powers. Maybe Monoliths can teleport two units a turn, or one unit and still fire. Maybe some HQ choice will give more units deep strike.

Rending maybe a bit too much. I could see making Gauss Weapons a Lance weapon and then giving all Necrons Tank Hunter ability. This would making a the mighty AV14 drop to AV11, or glance on a 6 for Immortals.

I like the ideal of not giving the warriors FNP or WBB unless you add a Tomb Spyder or special Necron Lord. This gives more options, either the "Our Number is Legion" list or the refuse to die list

As for monoliths teleporting more than one unit, there was a rumor of lower cost immobile monolith that would serve that function, but I have not seen that rumor in some time

[Melissia]

No, the Canoness jumps instead of walking. It's sometimes embarrassing, we have to remove her jump pack for formal occasions so she'll walk again.

[DarkLink]

From stinger989


Re: More Grey Knights Rumours
Sorry if its been awhile but i haven't had access to a computer.

there are no more stormtroopers in the codex except for as a inquisitorial henchmen. There is a way to get 2 wound terminators as troops in the codex rocking a 4++ and all basic grey knight troops come with a storm bolter and nemesis force weapon that counds as a power weapon but no bouns to strength and are all psy.

two psy powers they can use

hammerhand- justicar doubbles strength after modifications so is str 10
?- forget the name but test as a squad and then their storm bolters become str 5 for the turn.

they are going to be an elite army but if you run all troops you can get 60+ in a 2000pt list so really not that shabby.

there is ways to move units around for the FOC and other simillar shenanigans.

take as you want.


And before someone whines about 60+ 2 wound terminators with a 4++, he's referring to basic GKs. You can currently fit 60 GK troops in 2000pts pretty easily.

Actually, that would be an interesting list to try out, if you could find something to use for anti-tank.

[GrenAcid]

@up

So now we have to fight with 2W/4++ marines that cost same as old GK??..... hell is about to begin.
Crucible of malediction goona be handy, its sad we cant take only one :D

[Melissia]

Heh, R24", Str5, AP5 Assault 2 as a basic weapon after a psychic power is pretty good. Looks like PAGK are going ot be shooting-based rather than assault based.

Certainly they won't want to get into close combat with daemons where their power weapons don't matter worth a damn.

[DrLove42]

Certainly they won't want to get into close combat with daemons where their power weapons don't matter worth a damn.

Thats got to be something that just hasn't leaked yet...something that beefs their anti-demonness...cos so far just hampering their deepstriking isn't fitting with the fluff at all....

[Duke]

I would be suprised if their nfw ignores eternal warrior. That would make them pretty darn good vs daemons, but not ruin them against other armies.

Duke

[GrenAcid]

Well I read some novel about GK long time ago....guys lost 4 GKT when fighting one "medium" deamon....so for me GK being good with shooting deamons to pulp than stabing them with nemesis weapon is logic. For now we chasing shadows here.


Heh, R24", Str5, AP5 Assault 2 as a basic weapon after a psychic power is pretty good.
Its kind of "holly f*" weapon for me...unless they gona pay alot for powers like that.

[fuzzbuket]

@green acid:
was it the 1st GK novel?? the one about a saint?
it was a greater daemon that alaric had accidetialy summoned and it drove a whole IG regiment mad and they couldnt go near it!

GK maul lesser daemons
a greater daemon is misrepresented in 40k the FW ones are SMAlL Greater daemons 1 GD can kill a whole sector
a single plaugebearer could drive and infect a whole IG regiment/ civilian planet if not dealt with

[DarkLink]

Thats got to be something that just hasn't leaked yet...something that beefs their anti-demonness...cos so far just hampering their deepstriking isn't fitting with the fluff at all....

Actually, I'm betting GW's been smart enough to realize that it is impossible to do a balanced codex if you include a bunch of daemon-specific rules. You either end up with an army that is balanced against most armies, but completely steamrollers daemons, or an army that is balanced against daemons but gets steamrollered against everyone else.

Grey Knights should be good against daemons by being good against everyone, not by having a bunch of bull@#$% special rules that only work against daemons. It's not fair for anyone involved.



And anyone who thinks that Grey Knights only fight daemons needs to reread their fluff. Grey Knights were formed to fight chaos in all its forms. That explicitly includes traitor Guard, traitor Marines, any Xenos suspected of working for chaos, and, of course, daemons. Yes, if a bunch of daemons show up your best bet is to call in the Grey Knights. But if you think that that means that the Grey Knights suddenly suck against everyone else, you're an idiot.


Edit: Oh, and the idiot comment isn't directed at anyone in particular. It just irritates me when I see people say "but Grey knights only ever fight Daemons, ever, under any circumstances".

[DrLove42]

Totally agree, i'd rather it be fully balenced, that opened serious whup on demons. Lets face it if it killed demons before they started no demons player would play a GK army

Also its good that the GK book will hopefully set more people onto the road of realising GK fight everyone, but specialise against demons.

But (correct me if i'm wrong been a while) doesn't the current GK have a 2 page spread giving reasons why the GK would be fighting Eldar/Tau/Necrons etc...all of which boil down to some counter-demon/warp power scenario?

And i wouldn't completly put it past GW to play with the fluff a little...they did expand and play with the DE a little bit...so why not tweak another old age codex?

Also...i don't think the GK would be unbalenced if they had a few more counter demoneny ness. Maybe even if it is just preferred enemy demons/chaos. Or their power weapons presenting a choice of which save to ignore....armour or invulnerable. Cos just a standard power weapon (as NFW seem to be now) would make them more effective against a terminator or a marine than they would be against a bloodletter or horror.

We know fluff don't always match rules or all marines would have a 1+ save, have 20 wounds and be T8...but the fluff should influence the rules

[Shyft]

Really the whole 'Balance vs Daemons' argument has a simple solution.

Don't balance around Daemons in isolation.

Good: The Psycannon/Incinerator: They ignore Invulnerable Saves: Daemons most often just have invul saves. However, lots of other things have invul saves, so Pyscannons remain competitive. In theory.

Bad: Rites of Exorcism: Highly daemon focused to the point of "If your opponent does not have daemons, this rule doesn't come up."

Followup: Rites is however, 'free' for the cost of a unit of GKs, so it's not like you're paying out the nose for wargear. Further, the old DH codex DID provide Daemonic Infestation rules/allies for the purposes of letting opponents side in daemons to give your GKs something to actually stomp a hole in. They obviously did not succeed, but they tried.

So, instead of balancing around "this ability/wargear/rule interacts with Daemons" You balance around common daemon traits: Teleport/deepstrike, profusion of Invul Saves over Armor.

Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with having rules/wargear that focuses on anti-daemon function. I personally would like to see things like...

"Rite of Exorcism Redux: Any model who attempts to assault a Grey Knight does so as if moving through Difficult Terrain. Daemons suffer [Penalties]/rolls 1 dice instead of 2 or whatever.

It works against everybody, works Better against Daemons but not massively. Ymmv.

[DarkLink]

Exactly. Grey Knights should be good against Daemons because they have a bunch of cool abilities that work really well against Daemons, but just so also happen to work well against everyone else, too. That's the way to have a fun, balanced codex, while still feeling fluffy.




But (correct me if i'm wrong been a while) doesn't the current GK have a 2 page spread giving reasons why the GK would be fighting Eldar/Tau/Necrons etc...all of which boil down to some counter-demon/warp power scenario?


Yeah, the justification mostly revolves around the other force being involved with, or suspected of being involved with, chaos in some form. That's all fluff, though. The result on the tabletop is that, for one reason or another, Grey Knights will fight just about anyone.

Fighting Space Marines? Well, they're suspected of turning to Chaos. Fighting Guard? They have to be killed to prevent the spread of Chaos. Facing Eldar? The Knights are looking to secure a Chaos artifact, and the Eldar happened to show up looking for it at the same time.

It's a little harder to justify 'nidz, orks and necrons, but it's not too much of a stretch.

[Lerra]

From a friend:


The GK codex has been finalized and is currently at the printers.

There is a unit in the codex called a "Dreadknight" which is basically a psychically-infused super-terminator that counts as a monstrous creature. It looks sort of like a penitent engine but better. It has a Dreadnought CCW, lots of wounds and 2+ save.

The codex looks like it's pretty sick and will be on par with the Space Wolves for overall power. Terminators can be made troops by a special character. GKs lose fearless and gain ATSKNF. Power Armor Grey Knights get squad-based psychic powers, including a power that is like Hammerhands. There is also a squad-based psychic power that increase the strength of their storm bolters to 5.

Terminators have 2 wounds and come with a 4+ invulnerable save.

[DarkLink]

It sounds like the rumors are starting to converge. Multiple sources are saying more or less the same things, and the differences between them can be attributed to human error. Here's stinger989 again:


yep cortez can make henchmen troops, so you can get stormtroopers but they are now bs3 and not nearly as good. crusaders with a marine cost and coming with a pw and ss is much more attractive.

the other real winner for henchmen are the humans that come with bolters for 5pts or storm bolters for 7pts at bs 3

other troops are the palidan termies with 2 wounds and a 5++ and can get fnp with the apothicary

pergitor squads with all the extra special weapons can become troops too.

vindicar assassin is 0-3 and have the special rounds that are quite nasty
4d6+rend vs. armor
wound on a 2+
take inv save away for the rest of the game

loses his night fight rule but still has stealth.

psy cannons are str 7 with rending

drednight with gattiling psy cannon is only str 5 but 12 shots.

the palidan termies do not have EW.

havent read into the special chars much yet as i havent had time. but ill have a chance after x-mas.

some weapons that are new for the gk
sword that grants +2 str
halbriad that grants +2 int
one more but don't remember.

playtesting the gk the army with full squads of crusader humans and assassins in a crusader will wipe most things in one assault phase, which i can see lots of people taking. I can also see lots of people running the bolter/SB spam since they are dirt cheep.

the basic grey knights top out at 20 pts little more for the justicar.

there are transports for the henchmen granted you can fit them in.
gk army has access to landraiders, rhinos, stormravens, and the chimera.

stern- beleive has a ss but have not read to him yet.\

the callidus assassin got better as when she/he appears it does d6 wounds to the unit that is ap 1/2 dont remember, then can shoot the flamer then assault as normal.

normal gk dont have access to meltas. meltas are a rare occurence in the codex.

[Bill]

well I will be excited for my gk to get a new codex. Ive always wanted to play necrons cuz the wbb rule made it kinda interesting to me. I shall wait and see.

I wish GW would give ME fnp. :p

[Drew da Destroya]

I wish GW would give ME fnp. :p

Me too, man... me too.

GK codex is definitely sounding pretty cool. My new DE will enjoy dark lancing them to death.

Not sure I buy the Dreadknight... I would've liked to see a Knight Titan, although that probably would be a little over the top for standard 40k. It'd need a whole different set of weapons that weren't strength D to be fair.

[DrLove42]

I just love the idea of a DE opening a Crucible of Malediction and theortically being able to kill every GK with 18" in one turn of shooting, by himself

Extraordinarily unlikely...but would be funny ....

[DarkLink]

That's presuming that they actually give the psyker rule to everyone. They might have it just like in the current codex, where only squad leaders actually count as psykers.

[GrenAcid]

Terminators have 2 wounds and come with a 4+ invulnerable save.

4+ and no SS...I could live with that, but we all know it will not gonna happen, and Im sure there`s gonna be way to give them FnP...hahahahahhahahah

[DarkLink]

No built in storm shields. GKTs are currently able to trade their NFW and SBolter for a THSS, and I believe that the rumors indicate that they can still do this.

And they did say that there are apothecaries in the codex in one form or another:D.

[Maelstorm]

Say it isn't so, GK being handed FNP candy too? It's a little less special when every Codex gets it...

[Shyft]

i'm game for FNP. Only thing i'm not interested in is the axing of +2str weapons. Dunno about dropping Fearless for ATSNKF... Never played with proper 'rines, so i dunno.

I'd drop in some wishlisting, but that's not the point of this thread

[DrLove42]

I have no problem with codex getting the option for FNP

But FNP on a 2+/4++ (or 3++ with wargear) squad with 2 wounds each, and probably able to be equiped differently to spread the wounds love around....

I quit. Thats just sodding ridiculous!

[GrenAcid]

Thats just sodding ridiculous!

Ha, its not codex creep...its codex ridiculous!....new era in wh40....but wait, why its always happening to Imperial guys?

[Defenestratus]

I quit. Thats just sodding ridiculous!

You realize that if they do all that - there will be some 20-models on the field. These guys might make my starcannons worth a damn again.

[eldargal]

Bear in mind that these are rumours, and that Stickmonkey, who is unfortunatley under an NDA and can't actively refute any of them, has implied that most of the rumours he has seenare quite wrong.

[DrLove42]

These guys might make my starcannons worth a damn again.

Was thinking bright lanced falcons....3 shots that ignore the armour save, ignore the FNP and cause Instant death....assuming they're not T5 now....

So other than a invuln...1-2 kills a turn. Should make points make quicker.

Or my Fire Dragons get a new target....

And yes all rumours need to be taken lightly. Not long till they should start solidifying now though. But seeing as the BA 2nd wave details (other that 1 unfortunate incident with the storm raven) hasn't been revealed yet....

[DarkLink]

I think it's more accurate to say that Stickmonkey has said that a lot of the stuff he's heard doesn't quite match up with some of these rumors, but he's also noted that GW has fed him false info in the past to throw people off. It didn't sound like he was too sure either way of who was right and who was wrong.

[Galadren]

I think it's more accurate to say that Stickmonkey has said that a lot of the stuff he's heard doesn't quite match up with some of these rumors, but he's also noted that GW has fed him false info in the past to throw people off. It didn't sound like he was too sure either way of who was right and who was wrong.

Fun with false info: Terminators at 15 pts a pop, 2+/2++, FNP, Eternal Warrior, +2 Str Nemesis Force Weapons with Rending! And frag grenades on terminators! They can assault after teleport deep striking too!

;)

[Drew da Destroya]

I also heard that they can upgrade their Stormbolters to Melta CombiFlamers... which is a meltagun with a one-shot flamer. But they've got a psychic power that lets them upgrade the Melta to a Multimelta, and the Flamer to a Flamestorm Cannon.

[Brass Scorpion]

Here's a rumor (rumour if you prefer) for you. Tomb Kings are getting the fast track due to their incompatibilities with 8th edition WFB and Grey Knights will therefore be shifted more toward spring, perhaps June. I have no corroborating evidence in this case, but it is at least plausible.

[synack]

Here's a rumor (rumour if you prefer) for you. Tomb Kings are getting the fast track due to their incompatibilities with 8th edition WFB and Grey Knights will therefore be shifted more toward spring, perhaps June. I have no corroborating evidence in this case, but it is at least plausible.

How about GK/SOB/Necrons are getting fast tracked cause of their incompatibilities to 5th ed...

[Brass Scorpion]

Why the rhetorical question? Everyone always complains about their favorite army(ies) when they think they are neglected. If I was going to follow suit, I'd be complaining about the Dark Angels Codex nearly every time I posted since I painted thousands of points based on it only to see it go obsolete in just a year after it was released, but I just don't see what that would accomplish. I'll leave the fanatical repeated and incessant mono-maniacal posting about a single model range to others more skilled at it.

[DarkLink]

I'll also point out that we don't, and never have, actually known when the GK codex will come out, so there's not any "shifting" going around. GW's likely had the order next series of codices lined up for release for a while now, we just don't know quite what it is.

Putting GKs in June, however, would mean there a, what, 8 month gap in 40k codices? Whilst lately they've been pumping them out significantly faster than that.

[Defenestratus]

Why the rhetorical question? Everyone always complains about their favorite army(ies) when they think they are neglected. If was going to follow suit, I'd be complaining about the Dark Angels Codex nearly every time I posted since I painted thousands of points based on it only to see it go obsolete in just a year after it was released, but I just don't see what that would accomplish. I'll leave the fanatical repeated and incessant mono-maniacal posting about a single model range to others more skilled at it.

This.

People always get worked up over their favorite armies - and take it as a personal insult that theirs isn't getting re-done anytime soon.

What this does signal to me is that GW *could* in fact be more flexible in their release calendar beyond the 2-year plan that seems to be the modus operendi over there.

[synack]

I'm pointing out that there are alot of codexes that are "imcompatible" with current editions of their rule books, selecting a single codex to get fast tracked seems silly and rather unlikely. If any codex was going to get fast tracked, it would in fact be GK, simply because they're one of the oldest codexes out there at the moment, with SOB, Necrons and BT following up nicely. Tomb Kings would be out-of-date and incomaptible for a fraction of the time that the mentioned codexes were for, special when (afaik), they are rumoured to be coming up this year for a new codex anyways, fast tracking it seems unlikely and probably wish-listing.

[Duke]

I agree, GW doesn't seem to care much if a codex is "incompatible," with a current rules set. We don't have to look far for those armies that were passed up time and time again while GW updated perfectly "compatible," codices.

Duke

[Melissia]

I don't think BT has any need to be fast tracked. They're still quit good and fairly compatible with fifth editoin.

[Galadren]

As a BT player I have to say, while I'd love a new codex I think the ones that should be "fast tracked" are the currently rumored next three: GK, Necrons, and SoB.

[DrLove42]

If GW fast tracked codexes it'll be based on sales, not need. Or tomb kings would have been done first in 8th ed, not behind Orks and Skaven.

As for 40k they'd probably be tracking Necrons first. In the nicest possible way i don't think BT and DA need fast tracking. They as codexes are old and maybe broken, but the models can be used in 3 different codexes that are all compatabile with the models. Yes they lose their individuality as an army, but you've got a set of rules that they can be played with, 2 of which are uber compettive right now. Armies such as Tau and Necrons don't get that luxury.

Its not an attack on anyone, or whingers about codexes. Hell 2 out of 3 of my armies could use an update....

[DarkLink]

Regardless of talk of fast tracking, GW have been working on certain codices and already have their releases lined up for a while. We just don't find out about them until they're pretty close. GW won't spontaneously decide to bump up a codex they don't already have work done one.


And frankly, there's not much to differentiate DA from vanilla Marines. They should have just made Chapter Masters in termie armor make Terminators troops, and put the DA out of their misery. That way you could do ravenwing, deathwing, dual wing, and they could have included some of the DA special characters.

[Loken]

Dark Angels were my first army, so I have a soft spot for them. I think GW should just do a web update for them. Woudl be so easy as there are just a few thinsg that need to be changed to make them competitive.

Alec


The Apocalypse 40K Blog (http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/)

The Apocalypse 40K forums (http://www.apocalypse40k.com/)

The Biggest Apocalypse Battle in History - January 22nd, 2011 at all 4 US Battle Bunkers!

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/40K/ApocLogo.png (http://www.apocalypse40k.com/)

[DarkLink]

The codex is starting to spread, and more and more people are starting to get to ask questions and take peeks.

From Heresy Online (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65065&page=252):



I got a bit of info today from someone who gets to playtest the rules before they're released. I get the impression that everything is finalized and there there won't be any more alterations made to the rules side of the Codex, so that means the book (Codex: Grey Knights) should be out soon.

I was allowed to ask three questions about the Codex.

Q1: How many points are the "standard" Grey Knights in the Codex?

A: Five points more than a Grey Hunter, but this person expects that people will mostly be using the Terminators as Troops who cost as much as a vanilla Terminator.

Q2: What are the possible Troops choices in the Codex?

A: Power Armored Grey Knights and the aforementioned Terminators.

I didn't get the impression that there was any FoC switchery available which would be strange but not impossible.

Q3: How does the Stormraven differ from the one in Codex: Blood Angels?

A: It's a Fast Attack choice, has a different weapon upgrade and the pilots are psykers (which I took to mean that the Stormraven could either cast or benefit from psychic powers).

A lot of this is just confirmation of what we've already heard, but hopefully it's still useful. I haven't read this thread to make sure that all of this hasn't been repeated, so feel free to delete if it's just mindless repetition.


I got super lucky and got to ask some more questions yesterday, but I really can't give out any details as I was somewhat sworn to keep my mouth shut. What I can say is that there aren't Ecclesiarchy units in Codex: Grey Knights. There are no Penitent Engines, though something similar is there and I didn't see Arco-Flagellants anywhere.

The rumor about a "special" Dreadnought is true. It has a really lame name (think Twilight).

I'd also like to retract my earlier statement about there being no FoC switching. I can't expand more on that (damned keeping promises ) as much as it'd be fun to.


It was also mentioned that printing started on the 16th, so if that is true then the rules are finalized and we'll be seeing C: Grey Knights in a few months.

On a side note, as there will be two different types of terminators (normal and Paladin ones), one could use their old-style GKTs to represent one, and the new plastic GKTs to represent the other. If you're not a bandwagon player, that is:p.

And then there was this:rolleyes::

"What ho!" exclaimed Edward the Dreadnought. "Villainous Xenos dare show themselves at this sacred hour of 3pm? Uncouth curs!" he boomed, shaking his mighty fist in discontentment. The entire machine sprung to life and began to stride forward, "I shall teach them proper manners!" Edward added, not before turning to his techmarine and giving a farewell. "Pip pip old chap, keep the tea hot I'll be back shortly."

[Shyft]

glorious

[GrenAcid]

Q1: How many points are the "standard" Grey Knights in the Codex?

A: Five points more than a Grey Hunter, but this person expects that people will mostly be using the Terminators as Troops who cost as much as a vanilla Terminator.


BBBUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH...(inhale)..HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHA........(inhale)...HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA HAHA........ lmao.....lol.....hehe.

[synack]

BBBUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH...(inhale)..HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHA........(inhale)...HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA HAHA........ lmao.....lol.....hehe.

While I could see this being amusing at first glance, I'm not sure why they need to be so expensive. GKTA's will be exchanging a power fist for a force weapon, which (if the rumours are correct) are still base S4, I4. If they want to upgrade the NFW, then they have to pay for it. Base cost for them will slightly be more than vanilla, but I don't see why they should be that much more exp.

[Melissia]

They have power weapons, psychic powers, and storm bolters which count as CCWs in combat. Five points of an increase doesn't sound like that much more.

[Mkvenner]

They have a new rule that lets Storm Bolters count as a close combat weapon? Schweet.

[andrewm9]

They have a new rule that lets Storm Bolters count as a close combat weapon? Schweet.

Grey Knights more or less do that now.

[Mkvenner]

Indeed. However, True Grit has been phased out. So, by my reckoning the new book does not have True Grit, thus in need of a replacement. So hearing that was a good confirmation IMO.

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure that she's referring to the current book. Rumors haven't said anything about True Grit afaik, but have stated that they may simply be getting an extra attack instead.

[Mkvenner]

Right, reading it again she sounds like she is talking about the old book. Though, still hearing that they keep the same number of attacks and have better options and having their cost brought in line all sound good to me.

[Shyft]

looking at the latest blog post
GK Librarians - Here is where it gets good. We've heard that a wider array of Librarian Ranks are available, some allowing over 2 powers per turn to be used ~Eat your heart out Eldrad! Some of the reported powers included crazy stuff like:
-the lowering of a target unit's toughness! ~Think of what that means for the T:3 races!
-a "Stealth Kustom Force Field" that hands out the USR to all nearby friendlies.
-an "Inverse Gate" to yank a friendly unit from wherever, to right near the libby.

I am interested in the toughness-lowering power. This following chain of logic deals in assumptions though:

Assumption: All GKs, from Powered Armor to Terminators, have st4 4 Power Weapons (thus ignoring armor saves)
Assumption: As long as Weapon Str is double target's toughness, and the opponent suffers an unsaved wound, they suffer Instant Death.
Assumption: A squad of Str 4 GKs assaults a squad of T3 models. (Most likely Eldar/Guardsmen.) Power Weapons deny armor saves. They hit on 4+. Against a T2 unit, they all suffer instant death.

Is this awesome y/n?

[Melissia]

Instant death doesn't mean that they don't roll to wound.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

As much as I want BT for new fluff and rules, we are good for now.

How I foresee it going:

Group A
Necrons, SoB, Grey Knights (the 3rd Ed Codexes, give or take a Marine Codex, gotta make that 1 per year mark)

Group B
Black Templars, Tau, Eldar (the 4th Ed Codexes)

Group C
Dark Angels, Chaos, Daemons, Orks (Id say Daemons and Chaos get redone if the goal is to bring all Codexes to have been published in 5th)

[Firebird]

Someone please explain to me why GW aren't posting stuff up on there preorder page sometime in advance like they used too.
Its almost Jan and they have stuff coming out in jan and feb and nothing posted...they used to be several mounths ahead of the game but the last few months they just suck at it

[isotope99]

They've reduced it down to only 2-3 weeks so the Skaven stuff due in mid Jan has just gone up for pre-order. This leaves a frustrating gap between them announcing in their incoming email and actually confirming what's going to be released. Following that logic, you are looking at the second half of Jan for Blood Angels pre-orders with the Incoming email for April (fingers crossed for the grey knights:o) around the same time.

My guesses as to reasons:
a) So that we don't get bored of looking at the new models before they're even released.
b) In case of production/delivery delays.
c) Not to pre-empt the white dwarf announcement too much.
d) To give them extra time to get everything painted, photographed etc. which takes longer the more variations you have in the new plastic kits.

[plawolf]

They do that to cash in on the excitement surrounding a new release to maximize impulse purchases.

If they made things available on pre-order too soon in advance, a lot of people will probably get over their excitement and start thinking, actually, do I really need X units of YYY? And in most cases, the answer would probably be 'no'.

[Xas]

actually the 2-3weeks we have now are far better than the 2 months we had in times past.
this means you actually have a chance to get the cool new models within a timely fashion. I can remember releases where stuff was already "old and boring" and people where hyped about the NEXT release when the models finally came out.

[Captain Max]

A (blurry) photo of the new Furioso Dreadnought sprue:

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af77/Maxie999_photos/img0074yt.jpg

[plawolf]

Damn it! There goes more of my money...

[shrike]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/336515.page
that.;)

[Artein]

It's not only Furioso Dreadnought. There's rather big halberd in the sprue, much like current NFW.

[Lockark]

It's not only Furioso Dreadnought. There's rather big halberd in the sprue, much like current NFW.

If you look at the 3 front face plates you can see a plate for Furioso, Death Company, and Liberian. (The Liberian one sporting a book and psychic hood thingy)

[DarkLink]

According to Stickmonkey, it seems that DE are selling so well that GKs may not come till later, possibly around June.

[Brass Scorpion]

If you look at the 3 front face plates you can see a plate for Furioso, Death Company, and Liberian. (The Liberian one sporting a book and psychic hood thingy)Librarian, as in someone who works in a library.:confused: Liberian is someone from Liberia, which is a real place, not part of the Warhammer universe.

Let's hope the release on the new Blood Angels models goes back to the first Saturday of the month as usual. Moving the Skaven release to the 15th this month did not seem to be good for my local store's after New Years sales and it messed with events scheduling at the store as well.