How do you handle Forgeworld Rules

[Bung]

After all we got a interessting discussion in my local GW supplying Store.

Teh Question appeared after to people tried to set up a game and one of them wanted to use the FW Heavy Gun Drones.

The other player argued he cant play the Drones cause Fw or no official rules distributed by GW.
The one with the Drones argued that the FW Rules are official cause FW is a part of GW.

My intention was that its polite to ask your opponent if you can use FW rules and to do without when the opponent says no.

So how do you handle it, or can someone give me a passage which clarifies this question.

[Culven]

This hs been a long time debate. There will probably never be a final answer. Because of this, I would tend to take the polite path and ask if my opponent minds.

[TheKingElessar]

I would never allow an opponent to use FW rules in a pick-up game, for several reasons, not least of which the fact that they are badly (if at all) playtested, and costed ludicrously.

[Nabterayl]

To me, the question of "Forge World or not" is too broad. I'm happy to allow my opponents to use any Forge World models that are "40K" scale, which means no gargantuan creatures, no super-heavies, no flyers, no Strength D weapons, and no templates larger than 5" or the 8" teardrop. As long as they meet those requirements and are being used as the book prescribes (i.e., the relevant Imperial Armour book specifies an army and an FoC slot, and my opponent is using that army and using the Forge World model in that FoC slot) I am happy. In my experience most of the units in Imperial Armour are deliberately overpriced. Even for those that aren't (like the XV-84), they're part of the universe as far as I'm concerned, they're at the right scale of game (so my opponent isn't bringing a Lunar-class cruiser to the tabletop in the name of it being "part of the universe"), and I want to play a wargame in the 40K universe. To the extent that it makes my job harder, well, it's a new challenge to explore and overcome.

[Mike Dunford]

Unless a particular tourney makes an exception, FW rules are never allowed in tourneys, so we're just talking about friendly games, right? So why would someone have a problem with FW?

[TSINI]

i think its ludicrous to claim that all GW units and rules are playtested enough to make them "more legal" than forgeworld gear, that would take years!

forgeworld gear is ALWAYS way too expensive pointswise for what it is. just look at vehicles like the valkyrie and baneblade, they were incredibly expensive pointswise when forgeworld did the rules, then they were updated by GW directly, and became cheap as chips (even though the rules for them actually became much better with the larger templates for baneblade, and the armour increase for the valkyrie)

i would never ever question or complain about my opponent bringing out a forgeworld model for a pick up game, because firstly its pathetic to whine about such trivialities, secondly it'll make the game much cooler, and finally, its going to be expensive for what it can do so theres not much tactical advantage pointswise,

all the rules are already in place to stop people bringing gargantuan creatures, flyers, titans and other superheavies by the simple fact that unless you are playing by the apoc rulebook, there are no rules covering them in the normal rulebook.

but honestly, would you really throw a temper tantrum just because someone brought a salamander scout along with their IG army? i use this example because its a typical one from forgeworld, its a 100point, opentopped, fast. chimera with an autocannon and no troop capacity. chimeras are only 55 points. there would be no tactical advantage by taking a salamander, when you could have taken 2 chimeras (that arent opentopped) for the same price

i agree its much more polite to ask first, and i always would, but i would be shocked if a player actually refused to play against it after they had been asked, and to be honest, i would probably decline to play that game - firstly i'd have to re-do my army list, and secondly i dont think i'd be in the game for the same reasons as the other player - i play for fluff and fun - hence why i love forgeworld stuff.

[Jwolf]

Because some people care about their win-loss records in casual games. I have no idea why they do, but they do. If you want to take a Reaver Titan for a casual game against me go ahead. You'll win, but what possible difference does that make to me?

[FirstLegion]

I would never allow an opponent to use FW rules in a pick-up game, for several reasons, not least of which the fact that they are badly (if at all) playtested, and costed ludicrously.

THANKFULLY! TKE is not the norm for players, otherwise the game would have died years ago.

I have no problem with it at all. Having a load of forgeworld stuff myself, I usually jump at the chance to take it down off the shelf. Who cares if the rules are tested, this is a game and is supposed to be fun.

[TheKingElessar]

THANKFULLY! TKE is not the norm for players, otherwise the game would have died years ago.

I have no problem with it at all. Having a load of forgeworld stuff myself, I usually jump at the chance to take it down off the shelf. Who cares if the rules are tested, this is a game and is supposed to be fun.

Thankfully, that's bollocks.

It's incredibly rude to take FW models without the opponent's consent before hand. Not everything FW has rules for is overpriced, the same 4/5 things get touted as op every time, but that ignores the dozens of other things FW do...that SM Command Rhino is horribly undercosted.

Taking FW without the opponent getting the opportunity to do the same is like writing your own rules, and not telling the opponent. Just don't do it.

You all moaning "I don't care about win/loss in friendly games" makes me lol.

If people didn't care, they wouldn't use FW crap.

[Bung]

I wasnt talking about Tourneys.

Just simple Pick up Games in a local gaming ground.
There is no complaining about replacement Modells like the venerable and chaos dreads.
Its about Units you dont find in the Codex like a Prometheus LR or the Tau Heavy Gun Drones.

But ive seen games someone bringing a Baneblade or such thing to a 1250 points game only with the intention to stomp his oponents into the dust af the store.
K, he didnt find anyone again who wanted to play with him again i heard but thats not the point.

For me its "If it isnt covered in the dex, ask."
I think its the polite way to have a game.

But after all its something you can set lines and have a fight over. :)

[Mike Dunford]

It's incredibly rude to take FW models without the opponent's consent before hand.

Agreed. But I also think that it's a bit on the rude side to refuse unless there's a really good, specific reason.


Not everything FW has rules for is overpriced, the same 4/5 things get touted as op every time, but that ignores the dozens of other things FW do...that SM Command Rhino is horribly undercosted.

WTH??? The Damocles costs 25 points more than a normal rhino. For that, you get a long-range teleport beacon and basically the special abilities of two 15-point IG regimental advisers without getting the individual models, ability to lose one without losing the other, separate saves, and ability to place in a unit with ablative wounds . You lose the transport capacity of the rhino, you don't get better armor, you don't get ranged weapons other than the storm bolter, and it eats a HQ slot in the force org chart. I'm not seeing how that's overpriced.


Taking FW without the opponent getting the opportunity to do the same is like writing your own rules, and not telling the opponent. Just don't do it.

Yes, but the key there is "opportunity to do the same". If you set up the game and the opponent doesn't learn that you've got FW models until they go out on the table, that's wrong.


You all moaning "I don't care about win/loss in friendly games" makes me lol.

If you can't have as much fun losing a friendly game as you have winning one, you might be in the wrong hobby.


If people didn't care, they wouldn't use FW crap.

Bull.

Forgeworld stuff is expensive - and I'm not talking about points. It's only usable in non-tourney settings. If you're shelling out big $$ for Forgeworld so that you can win friendly games at the local store, you're a fool. (And see what I wrote about winning and losing friendly games.)

People buy Forgeworld because it looks cool. I like my new ven dread model, I'm looking forward to painting it, and I'll be playing with it soon. Same goes for my warboss on warbike - it's the coolest looking ork model I've seen. My next FW order (whenever that is) will probably include a chaplain dreadnought, again because it's a really nice looking model. If my opponent is cool with trying out the experimental rules, cool. If not, I'll play it counting as a ven dread. Who cares. It's a frigging game.

[Mike Dunford]

Just simple Pick up Games in a local gaming ground.
There is no complaining about replacement Modells like the venerable and chaos dreads.
Its about Units you dont find in the Codex like a Prometheus LR or the Tau Heavy Gun Drones.

At least one or two people seem to disagree, but I think that FW points are typically fairly reasonable for those kind of things. In friendly games, I'm always thrilled to see that kind of thing make an appearance. Playing against something new makes the game more interesting for me, and I take it as a sign that my opponent is into the hobby.


But ive seen games someone bringing a Baneblade or such thing to a 1250 points game only with the intention to stomp his oponents into the dust af the store.
K, he didnt find anyone again who wanted to play with him again i heard but thats not the point.

If someone wants to bring a super-heavy into a regular game, I will ask them how they're planning to adjust the force organization chart to account for it. If they want to play with low points but apoc force org (or lack thereof), I might agree. If they want to count it as occupying two or three heavy support choices, I might agree. In those cases, I think I'd still have a fair chance even without a super-heavy of my own. If he wants to play it as a single heavy choice and take two more tanks, I'm going to start laughing.

But that's because there's a difference - a big difference - between wanting to put out a cool model and being an unsportsmanlike schmuck. The rules of the game don't allow for super-heavies in normal games. If you've got your cool tank and you want to play with it in a normal game, I'm willing to consider ignoring that rule provided that you're also willing to make concessions in the interest of keeping it a fair game. But if you want me to break the rules simply so that you've got a better chance of kicking my tail, that's a sportsmanship issue.


For me its "If it isnt covered in the dex, ask."
I think its the polite way to have a game.

But after all its something you can set lines and have a fight over. :)

Agreed. Including that last line. :)

[TSINI]

I wasnt talking about Tourneys.
But ive seen games someone bringing a Baneblade or such thing to a 1250 points game only with the intention to stomp his oponents into the dust af the store.
K, he didnt find anyone again who wanted to play with him again i heard but thats not the point.


in this case, you would have had to specify that the game was apoc, before he could even consider taking the blade. flyers and superheavies are only allowed in apoc games.

someone pitching up to a 1250 point game with a blade, should be politely informed that only apoc games can contain superheavies, as the rules for them are only covered in the apoc rulebook. they should also be informed that apoc games are not usually under 3000 points a side, for future reference.

if i was to allow a baneblade in a smaller game, i would be inclined to make them use the Imperial armour vol.1 rules for baneblades. as this was originally intended for use in smaller games. it basically makes the blade 200points more expensive, which considering the vehicle, would make sense to allow the opponent a larger force.

but anyway, my point in short, you never have to accept a superheavy or flyer in a small game, because you have to agree beforehand whether its an apoc game. and apoc games arent normally pick up games, for this very reason.

[oni]

IMO: If it's not in your codex than it can't be used unless agreed upon before the battle. Not everyone has access to the FW books and while one could argue that not everyone has access to all of the codices... There's at the very least a large list of stats in the back of the rulebook as well as reference sheets on GW's site.

I would probably make an exception for Apocalypse, but the funny thing about that is, I don't play Apocalypse. :p

In case you're wondering about those reference sheets...
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=3400013

[Duke]

One thing to remember is that this is a game (duh)

But by that I mean that in order to bring rules that are outside the main line you need to get approval from your opponent, as has been previously stated.

Put simply people wouldn't use house rules for RISK without asking your apporval, Forgeworld and by extention BoLS rules and expansion books are in that area.... ThoughI must say BoLS seems to put a ton more thought into their supplemental rules.

Duke

[Mike X]

I would never allow an opponent to use FW rules in a pick-up game, for several reasons, not least of which the fact that they are badly (if at all) playtested, and costed ludicrously.

Most of the time the FW rules are beta.

I'd allow it for friendly games, but not with tourneys.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think it's a question of them being "beta" so much as the nature of the Imperial Armour books. Kinrade makes it pretty clear in the forwards to the various IA volumes that what interests him is narrative wargaming, and that the mission of the Imperial Armour books is to expand our access to the parts of the universe that aren't going to make it into a codex. That being the case, it isn't part of IA's mission to tune the IA units with Blizzardian precision. Units like the Salamander and Sentinel Powerloader are in IA because they exist, not because they're "competitive."

[mkerr]

Teh Question appeared after to people tried to set up a game and one of them wanted to use the FW Heavy Gun Drones.

Of course I would let him play with them! You don't get to se Forgewold Heavy Gun Drones every day; sounds awesome!


I would never allow an opponent to use FW rules in a pick-up game, for several reasons, not least of which the fact that they are badly (if at all) playtested, and costed ludicrously.

dot..dot..dotdot..dot..NEWSFLASH: It's a game, TKE. Unwad the panties a bit and have some fun.


It's incredibly rude to take FW models without the opponent's consent before hand.

That's ridiculous. FW rules were designed to work with 40K. It's just deeper tracks for from the same artist. If you turn down a game because they have a FW model, then you've lost your perspective.


You all moaning "I don't care about win/loss in friendly games" makes me lol.

I don't know a single local player that tracks his win/loss record that includes everyone from BOLS. Personally, I think if you are winning more than half of your casual games, then you don't understand the hobby. The goal is for BOTH players to have fun, even when you are working on your tournment armies.


Most of the time the FW rules are beta.

FW posts their beta rules on their website. The rules in the books are final. Personally, some of the best games I've ever played (including tournaments) included FW models. Usually a collector that will go to the length of having FW models will a pretty good opponent.

--mkerr

[Mike X]

FW posts their beta rules on their website. The rules in the books are final. Personally, some of the best games I've ever played (including tournaments) included FW models. Usually a collector that will go to the length of having FW models will a pretty good opponent.

--mkerr

I know this, I was referring to the legally free rules (web-based) as being beta. No one I know is insane enough to buy the overpriced Imperial Armour books.

[mkerr]

I know this, I was referring to the legally free rules (web-based) as being beta. No one I know is insane enough to buy the overpriced Imperial Armour books.

I love the IA books -- especially the most recent series. Fantastic story, gorgeous full-color plates and very cool models/rules.

They are pretty timeless though, so when you come around -- they'll still be there!

-- mkerr

[TheKingElessar]

Mike Dunford:

You have a healthy attitude to the game, I like you.

Unfortunately, my point was that there are as many tools who play FW because they want overpowered **** that fills a hole in their Codex, or allows broken comboes, as there are people who play it for fluff reasons. Obviously, it's only the rules I have an issue with, not the models.

Maybe people that DO win more than half their friendly games are just good players? There's no fun for either player if you're being a Ballbag, and throwing games from pity. The FW rules are NOT playtested by the regular 40k guys, so, no, they aren't balanced. Pick Up games are for FUN and to make FRIENDS, not to show off some crappy-*** rules in a £15 book you were the only one to buy, because the rest of us have better things to do than buy everything GW releases.

A pick-up game where you use FW stuff without the opponent's knowledge beforehand is rude, especially if you can';t replace it with other models, as you can expect in 90% of pick-ups...I know I don't ALWAYS carry 3k+ of models in case the opponent has a larger/smaller army than I expect/is brand new/forgets something and needs to borrow proxies.

Shockingly, I'm not a dickhead.

I never said I'd refuse the game, but they shouldn't expect to get to use FW rules. They can expect to have to wait while I read the rules though.

Also, the whole "length of spending more money makes them a better opponent, probably" (I'm paraphrasing, I know) thing is horse****. I don't know if you've ever played a TCG, but, i promise you, the players who can afford overpriced stuff they can't always use rarely are the most fun opponents, and even less so the most challenging, as they grow to rely on the expensive crutch. If I don't think I'm ever going to lose a game, I won't have fun, and I don't know how anyone can have fun KNOWING they'll lose - not BELIEVING, or REALISING, but KNOWING, from the outset, or Turn 2 at the latest.

Some of us like intellectual stimulus from our toy soldiers.

[BuFFo]

Because FW rules are not required to play the game.

What is required to play the game is the main rule book, and when you look in the front section about what you need to play, you are only told you need a codex for your army.

Thats it. Two books. One for the basic rules and one for your army. No where in the MRB do the authors even suggest to use rules from White Dwarf, Forge World, Black Gobbo, whatever....

If you want to use rules outside what is required to play the game, you need to ask your opponent.

[crazyredpraetorian]

Shockingly, I'm not a dickhead.




Now, that is funny!

[Cherub]

I think everyone is missing a key item in their arguments. Look at the newer books I think it start at IA 3 i know its on both my vraks books. Bottem right corner on the cover. Anyone miss those? It says warhammer 40k EXPANSION. Its just like planetstrike and cities of death. Do you guys play games while 1 person uses the rules from planetstrike and the other doesnt? As expansions they should be planned for ahead of time.

[jammer397]

At my local store we allow forgeworld and vehicle design rules, but the player using the rule must have players permission and the item in question must be gone over rule by rule, but this is the underline to if a player says no forgeworld models. They must have a damn good reason. Like a thunderer siege tank. That is a very good tank in my book. By price, weapon lay-out, and the whole nine. You just can't say no. It's fairly balanced in my book and there is no one that can come up with a good enough reason against it's use.

Now VDR is a little more touchie but thats a new subject. To be honest though. I don't buy forgeworld models. I will find something close and modify or scratch build one. FW cost a lot and the shipping it a killer to the USA. I got a big line up of FW stuff. I'll also tell you I have a lot of fun with my FW stuff win or lose. They look cool a brings more to the game.

[Vince]

If I ask someone to play 40k and they started pulling out some crazy forgeworld stuff I would explain that I wanted to play 40k. If we couldnt come to a agreement then I would just find someone else to play that was interested in a regular 40k game. Then again I am not experienced enough to the point where I dont feel like a regular game can teach me stuff/ be fun just by playing within the rules. While I can understand wanting to use a model you spent 100 bucks on and hours painting it seems like APOC games are better suited to that then someone just looking for a pick up game of 40k.

[Mike Dunford]

I think everyone is missing a key item in their arguments. Look at the newer books I think it start at IA 3 i know its on both my vraks books. Bottem right corner on the cover. Anyone miss those? It says warhammer 40k EXPANSION. Its just like planetstrike and cities of death. Do you guys play games while 1 person uses the rules from planetstrike and the other doesnt? As expansions they should be planned for ahead of time.

It's on the Vraks books, but it's not on any of the preceeding ones. Volumes 3 and 4 just say "Warhammer 40,000".

More to the point, I think there's a big difference between asking to use some FW models within a regular game and asking to use planetstrike rules when your opponent isn't. In one case, we're talking about standard missions, with both sides using the same force org rules, points, and everything else. The only change is that non-codex units will be fielded, using GW-written rules that cover things like points and force org slot use. In the other case, you're talking about asking to use a totally different set of force organization rules from your opponent.

If someone tells me that they've got some FW drop sentinels that they want to use, and shows me the FW rules, I'll be happy to let them. Same goes for things like Damocles Rhinos, Chaplain Dreadnaughts, Ork Gunwagons, Tau Heavy drones, and what have you. Those aren't likely to massively unbalance the game, or give a substantial unfair advantage to the opponent. It's just using a non-conventional unit or two.

If someone tells me that they've put together a great planetstrike attacking force that they want to play against my standard force org list, I'm probably going to laugh at them. That's a clear attempt to seize an unfair advantage. Big difference.

[Old_Paladin]

I'd let anyone use Forgeworld models; using the Rules is different though.
I'd wouldn't let an IG army use IA vehicle rules; mostly because their own codex now covers pretty much everything it needs to. (I don't want to see people going through item by item; IG Hydra, FW Vanq., IG Manticore, FW Annihilator... So they can always get the best tanks).

Armies like Eldar and Tau, I'd likely let them use something (as it adds variety).

[icecube]

I actually would like to see more FW stuff at our local GW-store. The models are so cool that i would surely allow peole to use them in a game. Maby ill buy some FW when all that new ork stuff comes out.

P.S. one of the stores staff has an death kops of krieg army, and it is so cool!

[Faultie]

I use FW models because they look awesome and (via the IA books) have great backstories (mostly). Has nothing to do with wanting to win, really.

I prefer the FW Exorcist to the GW Pipe-Organ, and I think the FW Dreads are just amazing looking (beat the stuffing out of the GW Venerable). The Repressor is a major Adeptus Arbites vehicle, the model looks sweet, and its rules are tame enough that it's no big deal to put it on the table, so I use it in my WH/IG Arbites lists. Likewise, my Kroot Mercs make good use of Great Knarlocs (and the lesser Knarlocs, models for which are not available from GW at all, although rules are), and the models look fantastic. Sure Great Knarloc's rules could stand to be a bit more...effective, but that's okay. They're still cool.

In short, I like to see (reasonable) FW models on the table. I don't want to play a 1500pt pickup game against an army of Thunderbolt fighters, and I am not interested in facing off against a Baneblade at 1000pts, but some of the custom Tau battlesuits, Elysian Drop Sentinels, or Landraider Prometheus are cool and I'd love to see them on the board.

[Mike Dunford]

I'd let anyone use Forgeworld models; using the Rules is different though.
I'd wouldn't let an IG army use IA vehicle rules; mostly because their own codex now covers pretty much everything it needs to. (I don't want to see people going through item by item; IG Hydra, FW Vanq., IG Manticore, FW Annihilator... So they can always get the best tanks)..

Yeah, it should probably go without saying that if there are both codex and FW rules for the same vehicle, the codex ones always, without fail, take precedence.

Again, that goes back to the whole "cool model" versus "attempt to gain unfair advantage" thing.

[Thantoes]

I would allow it, provided it wasnt a super-heavy or flyer. I think its always nice to play new units and expand your knowledge base. Opponent puts a unit that you have never seen before with new and unusual rules, it adds a bit of spice to the game. You have to adjust tactics, maybe try something new. It adds to the fun of it.

And if someone has spent lots of money and time buying and painting a model (and the rules are geared to a normal game of 40k) then why shouldnt he be allowed to play with it?

[Strata]

Generally the way i see it with forgeworld, specificly items that are not simple replacements for other range minis (EG: DKoK instead of Cadians) Ask. For the most part, i cant see why someone would say no, unless your bringing a reaver into a 1000pt game... or somesuch the like