Fighting w/ two single-handed weapons

[somerandomdude]

I'll start with the rules quotes, then move to my question:


Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complexe weapons!)


Two of the same special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties.

Poisoned weapons are classified as "special close combat weapons", alongside power weapons, lightning claws, thunder hammers, etc.

In the new Dark Eldar codex, the Wracks sqaud comes with two poisoned weapons (4+), which of course provides every model with a bonus attack. You are allowed to take an Acothyst (squad upgrade), who then has several available weapon options. One of these is an Agoniser, which is a power weapon that wounds on 4+. Another is a Venom Blade, which is a poisoned weapon (2+).

I fully understand (and am utterly disappointed) that if he were to take an Agoniser, he would not receive a bonus attack, because of the first quote. As badly as I want to make a case that a poisoned blade is no more different than a regular blade and should get the bonus, I won't bother trying (since it would not be successful). However, what if he were to take a Venom Blade?

In my opinion (and I asked a few others, FWIW) both weapons are classed as poisoned weapons, and you should be able to receive a bonus attack. The specific wound roll required does not change the fact that they are the same type of special weapon.

However, I'm looking at this without being impartial. Obviously I want to believe it works, and I realize that in the grand scheme of things we're only talking about a few extra attacks each game, but I'd like to know some opinions on it.

[addamsfamily36]

Unfortunately, because the agoniser confers additional bonuses it prevents you from gaining the +1 attack.

Altough they are both poison weapons, that its only one rule type in their weapons profile. the agoniser has the addition of wounding on a 4+ etc, and therefore makes its different type of special weapon just with the poison rule.

sorry

[somerandomdude]

Actually, I can see that my post was poorly worded (my final question was about the Venom Blade, which is poisoned, not the Agoniser, which is a power weapon). My question (simplified) was:

Would a model bearing a poisoned weapon (2+) and a poisoned weapon (4+) receive an additional attack?

[Drew da Destroya]

I think that you still get the +1 attack for the venom blade/poison weapon combo, because they're the same type of special weapon. Definitely agree that the Agonizer doesn't get the +1, though.

Admittedly, though, I'm also biased towards giving my Acothyst the extra attack!

Really, though, the question is "What constitutes a different special weapon? Is it being a different "class" of special weapon (poison vs. power), or is it having a different profile?".

[MaltonNecromancer]

This seems fairly clear - if you have a 4+ poisoned weapon and a 2+ poisoned weapon, regardless of which you cjhoose to use, you never[/I ]gain +1 attack. They're different weapons! You may [I]want more attacks, but the rules are clear - take two Venom Blades, get +1 attack. If you can't take it, you don't get it. Simple.

As for the fluff


a poisoned blade is no more different than a regular blade and should get the bonus

A poisoned blade is nothing like a regular blade, any more than a lightsaber is like a regular sword. A blade that wounds anything on a 2+ is clearly a weapon that would take years of skill to learn how to use to avoid poisoning yourself with the damn thing. If you accidentally scratch yourself with it, it's game over; I imagine the Dark Eldar have some very specific martial arts designed for it's use. Bit like nunchucks - great if you know what you're doing, and you can always use a pair for added awesome, but you're just one mistake away from clonking yourself on the head and killing yourself with them.

[somerandomdude]

This seems fairly clear - if you have a 4+ poisoned weapon and a 2+ poisoned weapon, regardless of which you cjhoose to use, you never[/I ]gain +1 attack. They're different weapons! You may [I]want more attacks, but the rules are clear - take two Venom Blades, get +1 attack. If you can't take it, you don't get it. Simple.

As for the fluff



A poisoned blade is nothing like a regular blade, any more than a lightsaber is like a regular sword. A blade that wounds anything on a 2+ is clearly a weapon that would take years of skill to learn how to use to avoid poisoning yourself with the damn thing. If you accidentally scratch yourself with it, it's game over; I imagine the Dark Eldar have some very specific martial arts designed for it's use. Bit like nunchucks - great if you know what you're doing, and you can always use a pair for added awesome, but you're just one mistake away from clonking yourself on the head and killing yourself with them.

Again, I wasn't trying to make that argument, but since you decided to dismiss it anyway:

[Begin my own logic that has no bearing on the actual rules]
A poison blade and a regular weapon provides a bonus attack, because no extra training is required for the regular weapon.

Two poisoned weapons (albeit with different to wound rolls) would, realistically, not require much extra training.

Compare this to a power fist and a power weapon, which would require two separate fighting styles and, with the speed of combat, you wouldn't be able to switch easily.
[End failed logic]

As Drew said, the real question is, what makes something "different" in the context of the rules? A different heading (power/poison/etc) or different rules?

EDIT: I'm sure it sounds as though I'm dead set on the extra attack working, and I'm certainly in favor of it for my own use, but I also believe that poisoned weapons should work together regardless of the special rules to provide an extra attack for whichever you wish to use. I'm not suggesting combining abilities (Venom Blade + Flesh Gauntlet should not mean a 2+ poison that causes ID), but providing bonus attacks should be acceptable and follow the rules. I'm seeking honest feedback, and I appreciate your viewpoint. If an opponent stated your opinion, and I was unable to convince them with the relevant passages, then I will not take the extra attack.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Different seems fairly self-explanatory - again, any difference at all will do. I don't see why the rules need to specify the various kinds of difference if it's not needed. Different rules, different heading - a poisoned close combat weapon is not the same thing as a Venom Blade.

I'm not trying to argue - I'm simply explaining how I see the fluff, which is what informs my view of the dice rolling.


Two poisoned weapons (albeit with different to wound rolls) would, realistically, not require much extra training

Based on what? Learning to fight with two weapons that have radically different effects is quite the thing. Calling the Venom Blade "poisoned" is a massive understatement - it wounds a Carnifex on a 2+ every time. It's like hydroflouric acid - one drop and that's it for you. So a very dangerous thing to pair up.


no extra training is required for the regular weapon.

I know many, many people who practice various weapon styles who would strongly disagree with you there. Myself included. Fighting with two weapons after fighting with one is a totally different game - compare Escrima to Fencing. Having enjoyed melee sports for the last twelve years or so, believe me, it's a world of difference.

[somerandomdude]

*In the world of tabletop 40k* no/minimal extra training is required for an additional close combat weapon. That's the basis for the rule, no? I didn't mean to insult you or your practice, and was not referring to any modern day martial arts/weapon styles.

Also, if I'm trained to handle a weapon with "the most poisonous substances in the galaxy," surely I'm capable of handling a couple extra blades with a few less dangerous toxins on them. These weapons require the same skill sets, unlike a situation involving two weapons from different headings.

[Drew da Destroya]

Different seems fairly self-explanatory - again, any difference at all will do. I don't see why the rules need to specify the various kinds of difference if it's not needed. Different rules, different heading - a poisoned close combat weapon is not the same thing as a Venom Blade.

This is really the heart of the argument, and I'm not totally sure what the answer is. I see two poisoned weapons, they're the same type of special weapon, but one is 4+ and the other 2+. I don't really see a reason as to why they wouldn't provide an extra attack, since they're both poison weapons.


Based on what? Learning to fight with two weapons that have radically different effects is quite the thing. Calling the Venom Blade "poisoned" is a massive understatement - it wounds a Carnifex on a 2+ every time. It's like hydroflouric acid - one drop and that's it for you. So a very dangerous thing to pair up.

They don't have "radically different effects"... they in fact have the same effect; It's just that one is more potent. The poisoned blade wounds a Carnifex on a 4+ every time... that might not be hydroflouric acid, but you also wouldn't want to touch it. Like the essence of a Miley Cyrus cd, or something equally horrific.



I know many, many people who practice various weapon styles who would strongly disagree with you there. Myself included. Fighting with two weapons after fighting with one is a totally different game - compare Escrima to Fencing. Having enjoyed melee sports for the last twelve years or so, believe me, it's a world of difference.

Ah, but you're using a real world example here, and we all know that the real world has no bearing on 40k... if it did, well, it'd be a totally different game.

However, I'll play along, and try out a real world example myself.

You're a skilled knife fighter. After training yourself well with one knife, you decide to up your game to two knives. After some initial self-injury, you've gotten yourself trained up to the point where you can dual-wield knives pretty damn well, and don't cut yourself too often anymore. You now decide to poison your blades, to make yourself that much deadlier in combat.

Starting with fairly non-lethal poison (because you sometimes still catch yourself), you train hard, and no longer cut yourself. As a result of your newfound confidence, you increase the potency on both blades. You're now pretty deadly, but know you've got a fight with a real tough opponent coming up, so you choose to add an even more deadly poison to one of your blades.

You're already used to fighting with two poisoned weapons, so why should the potency matter?

[solarmus]

A power sword and a relic blade are both power weapons, the only difference is the strength of the hit, which means the difference is the roll to wound. A model with a power sword and a relic blade does not get the bonus attack, since they are different weapons. This is basically the same as the poison bladed/venom weapon combo.

If the name of the two items is different (or to put it another way, if you could not write it as "awesome single handed weapon X2" on your list) you don't get the bonus attack. It may make no sense fluffwise for some combos, but that's the rule.

[AirHorse]

The reason a model with a power weapon and a relic blade doesnt get an extra attack is because a relic blade is twohanded.

I would have to say based on the wording in the rules then it wouldnt work with a 4+ and a 2+ poisoned weapon. It says two of the same special weapon, not same type of special weapon unfortunately.

[Yriel_The_Angelic]

I would say it doesn't work. It's like using a chainfist and a powerfist, both are technically the same but the former has some extra rules tagged along to it's powerfist entry. Yes they're both poison weapons but they have different rules in their entry (2+ v. 4+ poison). If this get's FAQ'd and I'm wrong then I'll be happy but till then I'll have to say no.

[solarmus]

The reason a model with a power weapon and a relic blade doesnt get an extra attack is because a relic blade is twohanded.


Ahh, right. I tend to forget that as you can take a storm shield with one.

Replace "Relic blade" with "power fist" or "lightning claw" then. (though why you'd ever do either of those combos is beyond me)

[Tynskel]

Sometimes you want to use fists, othertimes you want to use claws.

Marneus Calgar is a good example: 6 str 8 Attacks at I1 on the Charge, or 5 str 4 Attacks at I5. Both re-roll to wound. I have found them both quite useful. If I am fighting basic marines, going first is a better option, in my mind. I protect more of the marines that are with him. If run up against a dread or monsterous creature, I'll use the fists.

[Drew da Destroya]

Replace "Relic blade" with "power fist" or "lightning claw" then.

The difference here is that all of those are different "types" of special weapon.

A better example would be an Agonizer and a Power Weapon, since they're both classed as "Power Weapons".

[w7west]

............Which is why you take the stinger pistol!

[somerandomdude]

............Which is why you take the stinger pistol!

An Acothyst can only take one special weapon. If he takes a Venom Blade, he can not take a Stinger Pistol.

[Drew da Destroya]

An Acothyst can only take one special weapon. If he takes a Venom Blade, he can not take a Stinger Pistol.

I think he's saying to take it instead of the Venom blade... avoiding the rules question entirely.