What a Craftworld looks like

[eldargal]

Iyanden Craftworld, pre Tyranid unpleasantness. Note the bio domes with the continents and mountain ranges for scale.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071201130746/www.games-workshop.es/warhammer40k/razas/eldars/pdf/de_mapa_a1.pdf
Anyone with more techno know-wots than I able to turn this into a jpg?:)

[DarkLink]

Just hit print-screen, paste, then crop:p

[eldargal]

Well, that was embarassingly simple. Loses a lot of the detail being that small though.:p

Here is another view of Iyanden:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/CraftworldIyanden-1.jpg

[dannyat2460]

these are quite old images of them i think they need need to get some more drawn up

[arch_inquisitor]

That is fortunate, I was just thinking to myself the other day that I wanted to make a craftworld terrain piece for BFG, but I had no good pictures to even start from. Now I even have a rough idea of scale. Thanks for the pics. :|

[eldargal]

Biel-Tan:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/5/5f/BielTan.jpg

[Tynskel]

yummy... eldar look so tasty! Kinda like a crab--- crunchy shell with a gooey inside...

it is fun being a bug player...

[eldargal]

Really? For Biel-Tan I was thinking more bacon, lettuce and tomato.:rolleyes: Followed by Kaelor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kaelor) Fried Carnifex.

[eldargal]

Saim Hann:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ih6OWR4Pfzc/SZPjLhZdzcI/AAAAAAAAAAw/jRhx9plgQl4/S460/Saim%2520Hain%2520Craftworld.jpg
Unofficial (almost certainly)? Not that it matters much.

[cobra6]

"You hear me correctly, Edlan'arthathielle... paint the entire thing yellow."

Thats a big space ship. I like this image of Iyanden better than the one in the BRB.

As for Biel-Tan... it looks like a floating garbage scow with some huuge freakin' sails. That's where the Swordwind comes from..? :confused:

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Iyanden Craftworld, pre Tyranid unpleasantness. Note the bio domes with the continents and mountain ranges for scale.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071201130746/www.games-workshop.es/warhammer40k/razas/eldars/pdf/de_mapa_a1.pdf
Anyone with more techno know-wots than I able to turn this into a jpg?:)

I still own that boardgame. It's grand.

[eldargal]

Sorry for the necrothreadomancy or whatever its called, but FFG just released this art related to the new Eldar themed Deathwatch book, Fallen Suns or something:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/rogue-trader/news/fallen-suns/fallensuns.jpg

I don't like it, looks more like a Tyranid ship. Far too organic compared to the other official Craftworld pictures we have. I'm willing to accept it may just be the size of the picture and the colouring of the bdiogomes that make them look like tyranid pods though.

Edit: Also, no solar sails?

[Necron2.0]

Possible silly question, but have you seen >>these<< (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-19936-11426_Imperial%20Battles%20At%20Italian%27s%20Game s%20Day%202010.html)?

Also, are you still looking for a hi-res version of that PDF?

[eldargal]

I have seen those, they are very impressive.:) The only problem is that while ideal for some kind of wraith forest or docking area it doesn't really give the impression of being actual Eldar buildings, it is all wraithgates and spars and such. Still some of the nicest Eldar terrain I've seen.

Nope, managed to get a nice big picture of Iyanden from the pdf already thanks.:)

[eldargal]

Forgot one, another Iyanden from the 5th ed BRB I believe:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/CraftworldIyanden.jpg

Edit and an inerior shot from Jes Goodwins sketches:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/Sketch-Eldar-Architecture.jpg

[eldargal]

And some more interior shots:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/830px-Ixia_Wayport2C_Biel-Tan_Craftworld.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/1craftlugganath.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2craftlugganath.jpg

[magickbk]

The FFG picture reminds me of a top shot of the old Epic/Armorcast Falcon. Just with more bubbles.

[eldargal]

I'm hoping to see a larger picture before I render judgement, and I suppose the solar sails could be mounted on the underside. I still feel it looks too organic, Eldar design being a balance of organic and technological elements.

Another interior shot from WD127:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/eldar_forestdomemedium.jpg

[Drew da Destroya]

I feel like the FFG shot looks like the Hive Miind watched Star Wars, and really liked the Super Star Destroyer.

[Wildcard]

Hmm, what kind of weaponry those craftworlds posses? And what how big imperial fleet are we talking about that could take it out IF the craftworld was without any kind of support fleet?

I kinda have the feeling that those craftworlds are even bigger by far than Emperors own flagship or the one possessed by Dorn (one which had room for many battlebarges to dock)

[Denzark]

My favourite Eldar internal shots (so to speak) were from the old UK WD 127 - when the RT list first came out. In particular, a Dire Avenger stood next to some sort of Egyptian style statue - a hawk-headed god character. Very evocative and just right in conjunction with the excellent minatures of the time.

[eldargal]

I takes an entire sector fleet to even assault a Craftworld and that is no guarantee of success, which is why the Imperium largely leaves them alone. The exceptions are that stupid Idharae fluff where a single SM chapter destroys an entire Craftworld and the Eldar Path series of novels in Black Library where Alaitoc comes under attack by a vast Imperial fleet.

The craftworlds are the size of planets, literally. There was a great quote, possibly the onl decent thing, in one of Gotos Deathwatch books were one ofthe Deathwatch says 'So Ulthwe is orbiting that star?' and someone else goes 'that is no star...'.


Hmm, what kind of weaponry those craftworlds posses? And what how big imperial fleet are we talking about that could take it out IF the craftworld was without any kind of support fleet?

I kinda have the feeling that those craftworlds are even bigger by far than Emperors own flagship or the one possessed by Dorn (one which had room for many battlebarges to dock)

Some more interior pictures:

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/Eldar2.png
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage2.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage26.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage49.jpg

[eldargal]

Yet moar:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage55.jpg

Exodite city:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage76.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage80.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p127/nikephorusLB/Craftworlds/2ndEdCodexEldarPage85.jpg

[Denzark]

Mme L'EG, thank you for the Dire Avenger. I have seen the Hawk God (Amusingly is that actually Horus?) reproduced in a diorama as well.

I must say I prefer this and the Mark Gibbons Scorpion to John Blanche's scrattier stuff from around 2Ed.

[eldargal]

Well, thanks go to AndrewGPaul over on Warseer who scanned them.:) Started this thread over there too as people seem to have some odd ideas about Craftworlds.

I don't mind Blanches Eldar work, but I do prefer Goodwin,Gibbons and some of the others.

[eldargal]

horizon on Warseer posted this, it is unofficial but shows a damned good grasp of the Eldar aesthetic in my opinion:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=117259&d=1314948877

[Necron2.0]

Hey EG. I'm not certain if others have the same issue, but I've not been able to see any of the images you've linked from warseer. When I try to manually pull up the links (by first "quoting" a response and them pull out the link information directly) the warseer site says I need to log in to see the links. Personally, a couple days after creating an account there, I swore I'd never ever waste my time logging into warseer again. So, I'm imaging anyone who doesn't have a warseer account or who hasn't set their warseer account to always keep them logged in, probably won't be able to see the images you're referring to.

[eldargal]

Yes, Warseer deleted the thread over there where the images were hosted, I'm going to get a friend to put them on his photobucket account soon. Sorry about that.:( I can still see them for some reason so I didn't realise it was so urgent

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I takes an entire sector fleet to even assault a Craftworld and that is no guarantee of success, which is why the Imperium largely leaves them alone. The exceptions are that stupid Idharae fluff where a single SM chapter destroys an entire Craftworld and the Eldar Path series of novels in Black Library where Alaitoc comes under attack by a vast Imperial fleet.

The craftworlds are the size of planets, literally. There was a great quote, possibly the onl decent thing, in one of Gotos Deathwatch books were one ofthe Deathwatch says 'So Ulthwe is orbiting that star?' and someone else goes 'that is no star...

Don't they vary in size though? I mean I agree most would be the size of planets or stars*, but surely they'd be some minor ones that are much smaller?

I say this because I like to think Idharae was the size of a small moon and vastly undermanned, it would at least make the piece of fluff you speak of more believable.

* I love the idea of craftworlds at the size of entire stars. It has a cosmic epic feel on par with Olaf Stapledon's writings and ideas, you know like dyson-spheres.

[eldargal]

That is true, but even if Idharae was small and depleted after its battles against the tyranids, it still has impresive automatic defenses and wraithguard/lords. One Space Marine chapter attacking it solo is just stupid, if they were backed by a large fleet and IG then maybe but that isn't mentioned.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

That is true, but even if Idharae was small and depleted after its battles against the tyranids, it still has impresive automatic defenses and wraithguard/lords. One Space Marine chapter attacking it solo is just stupid, if they were backed by a large fleet and IG then maybe but that isn't mentioned.

Good point :/ reminds me a bit of that bit of fluff with the necron world-engine which seems to be the necron equivilent of Idharae. Just seems unbeliabable 1000 guys can take down an entire planets worth of weaponry, especially when the planets in question -are- part of the weaponry. So yeah, they should of added in the fleet/IG stuff to make up the numbers and make them more believable. I like SM, but they are the scapel not the hammer.

[Fellend]

Good point :/ reminds me a bit of that bit of fluff with the necron world-engine which seems to be the necron equivilent of Idharae. Just seems unbeliabable 1000 guys can take down an entire planets worth of weaponry, especially when the planets in question -are- part of the weaponry. So yeah, they should of added in the fleet/IG stuff to make up the numbers and make them more believable. I like SM, but they are the scapel not the hammer.

And yet we have seen several examples in the fluff of Marines exploding planets. Usually involving some kind of doomsday weapon meant to be used against them but still.

I don't see destroying an Eldar Craftworld would be any harder than conquering a planet assuming you actually manage to get ON it in the first place

[eldargal]

Because Craftworld are sentient and fight you in myriad ways such as venting sections into space, sealing sections off, gassing sections, turning the gravity off, increasing the gravity etc. Not to mention prior to Idharae the only other known Imperium mention of assaulting a Craftworld of any size recommended they be left alone unless you are taking an entire sector fleet against it. They are also made of wraithbone which is one of the strongest materials known.

The Imperium attacking a Craftworld is like natives rising up against the British in the nineteenth century. Sure they can win, but they have to massive outnumber them to overcome the technological advantage and even then losses will be horrific. And the recrimination will be nasty. The Chapter that attacked Idharae was all but destroyed by Alaitoc.

[Fellend]

Because Craftworld are sentient and fight you in myriad ways such as venting sections into space, sealing sections off, gassing sections, turning the gravity off, increasing the gravity etc. Not to mention prior to Idharae the only other known Imperium mention of assaulting a Craftworld of any size recommended they be left alone unless you are taking an entire sector fleet against it. They are also made of wraithbone which is one of the strongest materials known.

The Imperium attacking a Craftworld is like natives rising up against the British in the nineteenth century. Sure they can win, but they have to massive outnumber them to overcome the technological advantage and even then losses will be horrific. And the recrimination will be nasty. The Chapter that attacked Idharae was all but destroyed by Alaitoc.

Well yes, fighting it in a naval battle will surely require alot of ships and massive losses and all that but somehow a whole chapter of marines got on this thing and managed to bring it down. I don't see how this is really that strange. Fluffwise (not saying i'm agreeing here but we all know it) 10 space marines regulary kills 10000 of eldar/orks (Dan Abnett - Iron Snakes)

Destroy invincible weapons platforms (GW the black fortress)

Stop world eating invasions (any tyranid fluff)

Stop deamon realms and shatter armies (Ultramarines novel)

So really, one thousand marines could probably bring this down with reasonable losses.
I know it sucks as a xeno player but Space Marines are OP. Fluffwise there's nothing they can't kill so I don't really see why a craftworld would be that much different from a daemon world or tyranid infestation

[eldargal]

Yes, thing is Eldar are more advanced even than Space Marines, and having them routinely being slaughtered by them merely cheapens the act. I get that Space Marines are the protagonists of most novels, but having one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy become cannon fodder does neither of them justice.

'Space Marines are OP' is no defense for stupidity that contradicts all the earlier fluff, and if the Space Marines are so OP that they win against any odds then where is the challenge? It is stupid, pure and simple. Also three Iron Snakes kill 40 Dark Eldar in a bunker from memory, hardly tens of thousands. Orks aren't Eldar, they die in huge numbers, that is their thing.

The earlier fluff says an entire sector fleet is needed merely to engage a Craftworld with any hope of success, to put that in perspective a sector fleet is 50-75 capital ships with crews ranging from 1000 to 3,000,000 and troop ships that carry hundreds of thousands of crew and millions of Imperial Guard each. (p127 of teh 5th ed BRB,(Dark) Eldar pirates capture one of these ships)

But who cares about that, right? 1000 Marines can do it, because they're cool.:rolleyes:


EDIT: All pictures have now been replaced.

[Fellend]

Yes, thing is Eldar are more advanced even than Space Marines, and having them routinely being slaughtered by them merely cheapens the act. I get that Space Marines are the protagonists of most novels, but having one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy become cannon fodder does neither of them justice.

'Space Marines are OP' is no defense for stupidity that contradicts all the earlier fluff, and if the Space Marines are so OP that they win against any odds then where is the challenge? It is stupid, pure and simple. Also three Iron Snakes kill 40 Dark Eldar in a bunker from memory, hardly tens of thousands. Orks aren't Eldar, they die in huge numbers, that is their thing.

The earlier fluff says an entire sector fleet is needed merely to engage a Craftworld with any hope of success, to put that in perspective a sector fleet is 50-75 capital ships with crews ranging from 1000 to 3,000,000 and troop ships that carry hundreds of thousands of crew and millions of Imperial Guard each. (p127 of teh 5th ed BRB,(Dark) Eldar pirates capture one of these ships)

But who cares about that, right? 1000 Marines can do it, because they're cool.:rolleyes:


EDIT: All pictures have now been replaced.

Well my argument was exactly that. The Space marines are the heroes and the posterboys of 40k. Of course they can win against anything. But if you want more realistic (And this once again assumes that the 1000 space marines somehow manages to board the craftworld. HOW they do this is... well, an act of the Emperor we will have to assume)

They only mention that it takes a sector fleet to destroy a craftworld. A sector fleet would need to engage in naval battle (is it still called naval if it is in space?) 1000 space marines do not because by an act of the Emperor they have somehow manage to assault it.

Now you can with no problem see how 1000 marines destroys a world? Stops a full scale Daemon invasion (infact i can mention at least soul drinker where it is done.... twice actually)

Invade and conquer or destroy worlds in the eye of Terror, the very place where the biggest and baddest of daemons and their evil counter parts lurk, and still come back as a functioning chapter

Stop and or kill millions upon millions of Tyranids and their fleets, and wipe a tendril to near extinction

But... you can't see how they would manage to kill a craftworld? because... why exactly? If anything it actually sounds alot easier than destroying a planet or wiping every tyranid off one because in the end the craftworld is a giant vessel. If you target important things it's going to go down quickly. You could stop it dead in space by destroying it's engines, blow up the command post, collapse whatever is seperating space from the inside and so on. It sounds alot easier than wiping a world. A world which is usually filled with infinite enemies (orks, tyranids, daemons).

However. All of this assumes that the 1000 space marines makes onto the craftworld in the first place. Which.... I can't explain but I'll assume it's one of those GM intervention things to make it interesting.

I highly respect you Eldargal (and you are one of the few if not only one on this forum which I can say that about) but this all really feels like. "Omg, GW can let SM kill and instawipe anything but not MY race"

(finally, it's said something along the lines of "by the end of the day they had killed thousands...." in Iron snakes)

[scadugenga]

In BFG, specifically the craftworld supplement, (where you get the dragon/wraith ships etc) there is a scenario where the eldar are defending a craftworld from assault.

It specifically mentions that the craftworld has a size the equivalent of actual planets. (25cm is the size for Iyanden in BFG--or roughly the size of Terra.) They are also shown as having a gravity well.

This is waaaaayyyyy retconned from the original RT book where craftworlds were "tens of miles across and usually circular in shape." (p.178) It also goes on to mention that they each house up to as many as ten thousand eldar.


Wow, that may be the first time I'm really glad they retconned something! :)

[mr1029384756]

[QUOTE=eldargal;156147]I takes an entire sector fleet to even assault a Craftworld and that is no guarantee of success, which is why the Imperium largely leaves them alone. The exceptions are that stupid Idharae fluff where a single SM chapter destroys an entire Craftworld and the Eldar Path series of novels in Black Library where Alaitoc comes under attack by a vast Imperial fleet.

The craftworlds are the size of planets, literally. There was a great quote, possibly the onl decent thing, in one of Gotos Deathwatch books were one ofthe Deathwatch says 'So Ulthwe is orbiting that star?' and someone else goes 'that is no star...'.

Heh... It's a wonder that they don't cause gravitational anomalies when the Eldar travel through star systems and such. A ship the size of a planet, under power and able to cruise into the Webway, would wreck havok on a world simply by being within a couple light years of it.

[eldargal]

Without a sector fleet backing it up the Space Marines wouldn't be able to land because their ships would be annihilated by the Craftworlds own defenses before landing. Even in Path of the Warrior/Seer the landing only takes place because there are enough Imperial ships to absorb all the firepower of the Craftworld defenses to enable the drop pods to get through.

The problem isn't Idharae being destroyed, the problem is really the lack of information. The Sons of Orar assault Alaitoc with the backing off by its size is a fleet from at least one sector, and the SoO do a lot of damage. But they needed that supporting fleet to land. There is no mention of a fleet in the Idharae piece which is admitedly very small. We do know the Invaders took horrific losses during the attack. We know an Alaitoc strike force reduced their strength to barely three companies forty years after the invasion of Idharae and left their entire homeworld in ruins. I don't have a problem with Eldar losing, and I don't have a problem with losing a Craftworld every now and then so long as it does properly. I'm quite happy with the comeuppence meted out by Alaitoc and later Ahriman to the Invaders. What I'm not ok with is the idea one Space Marine chapter would have a fleet capable of allowing them to land on a Craftworld, as even a severely depleted Craftworld can have its fleet operate as ghostships with wraithcrews. If you think a Craftworld would be easier to destroy than a planet infested with 'nids then you haven't read the fluff about them.;) Not to mention Iyanden destroyed the brunt of a Hive Fleet on its own, ironically saving Ultramar. And vice versa, if the 'nids had destroyed Iyanden and headed to Macragge they would have wiped out the Ultramarines, and if Ultramar had fallen sooner the 'nids could have reinforced themselves at Iyanden. Ulthwe, as has been mentioned, is the size of a star and it isn't even the largest of them.

Having 1000 Marines take on one and win without support would be like having Jamaica launch a successful invasion of the USA. So implausible as to be stupid. That is my problem with it, not the fact the Eldar lost. Of course it doesn't help we lost Malantai as well, recently, to even more stupid a plot device.:rolleyes:




Well my argument was exactly that. The Space marines are the heroes and the posterboys of 40k. Of course they can win against anything. But if you want more realistic (And this once again assumes that the 1000 space marines somehow manages to board the craftworld. HOW they do this is... well, an act of the Emperor we will have to assume)

They only mention that it takes a sector fleet to destroy a craftworld. A sector fleet would need to engage in naval battle (is it still called naval if it is in space?) 1000 space marines do not because by an act of the Emperor they have somehow manage to assault it.

Now you can with no problem see how 1000 marines destroys a world? Stops a full scale Daemon invasion (infact i can mention at least soul drinker where it is done.... twice actually)

Invade and conquer or destroy worlds in the eye of Terror, the very place where the biggest and baddest of daemons and their evil counter parts lurk, and still come back as a functioning chapter

Stop and or kill millions upon millions of Tyranids and their fleets, and wipe a tendril to near extinction

But... you can't see how they would manage to kill a craftworld? because... why exactly? If anything it actually sounds alot easier than destroying a planet or wiping every tyranid off one because in the end the craftworld is a giant vessel. If you target important things it's going to go down quickly. You could stop it dead in space by destroying it's engines, blow up the command post, collapse whatever is seperating space from the inside and so on. It sounds alot easier than wiping a world. A world which is usually filled with infinite enemies (orks, tyranids, daemons).

However. All of this assumes that the 1000 space marines makes onto the craftworld in the first place. Which.... I can't explain but I'll assume it's one of those GM intervention things to make it interesting.

I highly respect you Eldargal (and you are one of the few if not only one on this forum which I can say that about) but this all really feels like. "Omg, GW can let SM kill and instawipe anything but not MY race"

(finally, it's said something along the lines of "by the end of the day they had killed thousands...." in Iron snakes)

[Fellend]

Without a sector fleet backing it up the Space Marines wouldn't be able to land because their ships would be annihilated by the Craftworlds own defenses before landing. Even in Path of the Warrior/Seer the landing only takes place because there are enough Imperial ships to absorb all the firepower of the Craftworld defenses to enable the drop pods to get through.

The problem isn't Idharae being destroyed, the problem is really the lack of information. The Sons of Orar assault Alaitoc with the backing off by its size is a fleet from at least one sector, and the SoO do a lot of damage. But they needed that supporting fleet to land. There is no mention of a fleet in the Idharae piece which is admitedly very small. We do know the Invaders took horrific losses during the attack. We know an Alaitoc strike force reduced their strength to barely three companies forty years after the invasion of Idharae and left their entire homeworld in ruins. I don't have a problem with Eldar losing, and I don't have a problem with losing a Craftworld every now and then so long as it does properly. I'm quite happy with the comeuppence meted out by Alaitoc and later Ahriman to the Invaders. What I'm not ok with is the idea one Space Marine chapter would have a fleet capable of allowing them to land on a Craftworld, as even a severely depleted Craftworld can have its fleet operate as ghostships with wraithcrews. If you think a Craftworld would be easier to destroy than a planet infested with 'nids then you haven't read the fluff about them.;) Not to mention Iyanden destroyed the brunt of a Hive Fleet on its own, ironically saving Ultramar. And vice versa, if the 'nids had destroyed Iyanden and headed to Macragge they would have wiped out the Ultramarines, and if Ultramar had fallen sooner the 'nids could have reinforced themselves at Iyanden. Ulthwe, as has been mentioned, is the size of a star and it isn't even the largest of them.

Having 1000 Marines take on one and win without support would be like having Jamaica launch a successful invasion of the USA. So implausible as to be stupid. That is my problem with it, not the fact the Eldar lost. Of course it doesn't help we lost Malantai as well, recently, to even more stupid a plot device.:rolleyes:


Let's just assume that Jamaica somehow snuck in commando soldiers, took over the nuclear silos and manage to jury rig them to launch.
There was the time the invincible american fleet got completely owned by speed boats.
There was the time the invincible american fleet got completely owned by japanese bombers
There was the time that the invincible american army got completely owned by vietnamese farmers with weapons.

I DON'T want to make this an discussion about the might of the American army, we are all well aware that you can bomb the smurf out of every country with exception for maybe Russia and China.
My point is simply this. It is not so unlikely that a Jamaican invasion would fail as you'd like to think.

In a straight up battle. The craftworld (aka America) would surely blast everything to smurf. But with a well thought out plan and a daring tactic who knows? Maybe they came with offers of peace and goodwill? and then boarded the ship. There's not enough information to know

[eldargal]

Right, because the 300m populace of the USA are just going to stand there and do nothing, ditto the army.:p Your scenarios make little sense*, even less for a Craftworld. The USA would have all the advantages that the Vietnamese had, plus the technology, as would a Craftworld. The damned thing can seal itself off, not only would the Space Marines not know where anything is, they can be redirected at will through a shifting maze of corridors to maximise the amount of firepower that can be brought to bear as witnessed in Path of the Seer.

You are correct, there isn't enough information and therein lies the problem. The destruction of a Craftworld is a huge affair for the Imperium, involving sector fleets and usually a chapter of Space Marines supported by innumerable IG. Yet all we have about Idharae is that one SM chapter did it, which is just implausible. If it was a mass assault of a large fleet spearheaded by an entire SM chapter against a weakened Craftworld, then fine. But that isn't what the fluff says.


*Though I wil agree that carrier fleets are far more vulnerable than most people think, the naval exercises in the Persian Gulf back in 2002 or so proved that.;)

[Fellend]

Right, because the 300m populace of the USA are just going to stand there and do nothing, ditto the army.:p Your scenarios make little sense*, even less for a Craftworld. The USA would have all the advantages that the Vietnamese had, plus the technology, as would a Craftworld. The damned thing can seal itself off, not only would the Space Marines not know where anything is, they can be redirected at will through a shifting maze of corridors to maximise the amount of firepower that can be brought to bear as witnessed in Path of the Seer.

You are correct, there isn't enough information and therein lies the problem. The destruction of a Craftworld is a huge affair for the Imperium, involving sector fleets and usually a chapter of Space Marines supported by innumerable IG. Yet all we have about Idharae is that one SM chapter did it, which is just implausible. If it was a mass assault of a large fleet spearheaded by an entire SM chapter against a weakened Craftworld, then fine. But that isn't what the fluff says.


*Though I wil agree that carrier fleets are far more vulnerable than most people think, the naval exercises in the Persian Gulf back in 2002 or so proved that.;)

I think you are underestimating the element of suprise not to mention confusion, terror and panic. My examples were just that. There was no way an entire japanese fleet should be able to cross the atlantic and sink (or cripple) an american fleet. But it did just that.
There was no way the vietnamese should be able to defeat the american army, but they did just that.
There is no way the jamaican army should be able to launch a covert operation/sneak attack and use americas nukes upon the US but... as it has not yet been tried. We don't know. But it might happend.

My point is I'm sure there has been 20000 attempts to destroy a craftworld with just a small fleet or a space marine chapter or whatever. But only this one succeded. So it's the one that's worth mentioning.
I don't see why it's so hard to believe that 1000 space marines would be unable to destroy a craftworld when we see them conquering planets and defeating armies every day. And then usually just a bunch of them instead of a whole chapter.

Still this requires you to ignore how they got on it in the first place but I'm not touching that with 41" stick.


And as for the defense mechanisms of the craftworld how is this much different from say "the warp opening up"


It is said that the planet rocked on its axis as sorcerous flame burst forth from the catacombs, further toppling and destroying the already damaged Librarium. All the Guard stationed on the planet died in writhing Warpflame, but some Invaders managed to survive, protected as they were by their power armour. But the danger was not over, as the sorcerous explosion had torn the walls of reality asunder, spilling hordes of daemons onto the planet.4

The surviving Invaders barricaded and fortified a large antechamber somewhere in the Librarium, and fought a losing battle for days, before a small Grey Knights strike force landed on the planet to stop the daemonic incursion. The Invaders later aided the Grey Knights in closing the warp portal which had spewed forth the daemon horde. Out of 300 Space Marines, only a dozen survived.4

(actually taken from the Invaders lexicanum page)

I bet you can look up a thousand more examples of the space mariens fighting in the most disadvantageous battles ever and still win.

[eldargal]

Whatever, this is turning into a desperate attempt to justify an absurd piece of fluff based on 'Marines are tough' and it really isn't the point of this thread. As it stands it would be like a line in the Necron codex saying 'And the Necrons attacked Terra, billions died.' with no explanation of how it was achieved. The issue isn't that it occurs, but that based on the information we have it simply couldn't have occurred. We might as well have a story about a dozen Orks destroying an entire Forge World on their own as well.

[Fellend]

I'm curious as to why this is so hard to believe?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat a tyranid invasion?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat an Ork Wagh?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat a daemon world?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would slay thousands of Dark Eldar?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat a Necron tomb world defended by a C'tan?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would wipe a tau world?

I can give examples to all of this in fluff. And I don't think you have any problems believing me even though I'm to lazy to post the actual references

So... Why is it so hard to believe that they could take an Eldar Craftworld?

[eldargal]

Well:


A) All incidents of Marines defeating entire Tyranid hive fleets (as Iyanden did, for example) they were backed with PDF, IG and Navy fleets. I do recall something about a Deathwatch company destroying a tendril by killing the Norn queen, again it is plausible because it is explained, unlike Idharae.

B) Depending onthe size of the Waagh, over which the Marines have technological superiority and can exploit the main weakness of the Waagh names its tendency to fall apart when the Warlord is killed. I don't think they have ever taken on and destroyed an entire Waah in open combat.

C) Depending on the circumstances, yes, Chaos is fickle.

D) Yes and no, if you mean that obscene piece of excrement where ten marines kill three thousand Dark Eldar in an hour despite there being no way they could even have enough ammunition, then no. If you mean the Space Marine 'invasion' of Commoragh, then yes. That was an example of how this sort of thing should be handled. Neither the Marines nor the Dark Eldar were belittled.

E) I'm not familiar enough with Necron/Space Marine interactions to judge.

F) Depends on the strength of the Tau, the strength of the Marines, but no, they shouldnt be able to solo given what happened in the Damocles campaign.


I have no problem with a Craftworld being destroyed by Marines, what I have a problem with is the fact that Idharaes destruction was treated so cavalierly that is is verging on the inconceivable. One chapter alone simply couldn't be able to take on a Craftworld (they couldn't find it for a start) without significant back up, none of which is mentioned. That is my problem. The destruction of Malantai is even more disgraceful but it at least is explained. Ditto Kher-Ys. As it stands all we know is that a militarily powerful Craftworld (they helped destroy a hive fleet and no mention is made of crippling losses) was destroyed by one thousand Space Marines on their own. That is stupid because it contradicts ALL the other fluff we have about assaults on Craftworlds.

[wittdooley]

Just to chime in:

In Firedrake, 4-10 (I forget how many) Salamanders are pulled into Commoragh and get their ***** absolutely handed to them. They escape, and certainly take out some DE with them (including Lelith) but I think they're reduced to 2 or 3, and all of them are severely injured.

Despite all the complaining about Matt Ward's fluff, he sets the precedent that a tyranid-war depleted Blood Angels Chapter would NOT be able to take on the Necrons and win.

@Felland - I think the biggest issue you're ignoring with your Jamaica analogy is this: People in the United States love Jamaicans and don't see them as any credible threat. Further, we don't have defense posts at 10 mile increments along our substantial borders. An Eldar Craftworld, with the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy, would certainly see any Space Marines in any close proximity as a credible threat, and their craftworld would certainly have defensive precautions in place to prevent them from being boarded/invaded.

Also, the use of your real-war examples are silly and misinformed.

While a defeat, the absence of the three Aircraft Carriers from Pearl Harbor was huge. Further, only three total ships were lost; each other damaged ship was returned to service before the end of the war (many within the year). Finally, while causualties seem high, beyond the Arizona, which exploded, they were relatively low in comparative war terms.

As for Vietnam: While it is considered that the US "lost" the war, the casualty numbers speak a far different story.

[Anggul]

I'm curious as to why this is so hard to believe?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat a tyranid invasion?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat an Ork Wagh?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat a daemon world? Probably not, that's why the Grey Knights exist.

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would slay thousands of Dark Eldar?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would defeat a Necron tomb world defended by a C'tan?

Can you believe that a chapter of space marines would wipe a tau world?

I can give examples to all of this in fluff. And I don't think you have any problems believing me even though I'm to lazy to post the actual references.

So... Why is it so hard to believe that they could take an Eldar Craftworld? Because an entire Craftworld is home to a ridiculous amount of high-end weaponry, manned by skilled being literally created for war.

1. No, they need other Imperial forces to help them. The marines are very powerful, but you need the massed firepower of the guard and the force of the Imperial Navy to take on a Hive Fleet, the Tyranids are very adaptive and attack in numerous ways, so it's important to cover all bases. I'm not disagreeing at all that the marines would be a massive help though.

2. It depends on the size of the Waagh, Armageddon took numerous chapters and insane amounts of imperial guard.

3. Probably not, that's why the Grey Knights exist.

4. That really depends on the Dark Eldar. Warriors won't do a massive amount to marines, but Incubi can cut them down for sport.

5. Once again, depends on the size of the tombs. The C'tan alone would butcher a massive number of them, and Necrons are easily one of the most deadly forces of all time in backstory.

6. Yes, but then the Tau empire isn't exactly colossal. A very powerful one for it's size, yes, but they don't have the kind of numbers to stand against a whole chapter. Although they can beat Space Marines, an entire chapter is too much for almost any planet to bear. You almost never get entire chapters fighting in one place.

Judging by your apparent confidence, I imagine much of this is from Mat Ward or an Imperial-themed Black Library book... so it's probably not very reliable. Xenos books always seem to have a far more balanced view, if anything slightly against the xenos still. In Path of the Warrior and Path of the Seer, for example, Marines are used as a powerful enemy, and in some places much more powerful than they should be. I have no idea why an entire craftworld -with their Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms and various other high-end weapons pretty much perfect for dealing with marines- finds it so hard to fight a what is presumably a couple of companies of them. I'm not for a moment suggesting that marines aren't extremely powerful foes, but the extent to which they're glorified in the 'Path' books is silly. Did I mention there were 3 Phoenix Lords and some troupes of Harlequins present? Oh, and the fact that the Eldar have all of their titans/super-heavies there. And the Avatar.

[wittdooley]

1. No, they need other Imperial forces to help them. The marines are very powerful, but you need the massed firepower of the guard and the force of the Imperial Navy to take on a Hive Fleet, the Tyranids are very adaptive and attack in numerous ways, so it's important to cover all bases. I'm not disagreeing at all that the marines would be a massive help though.

2. It depends on the size of the Waagh, Armageddon took numerous chapters and insane amounts of imperial guard.

3. Probably not, that's why the Grey Knights exist.

4. That really depends on the Dark Eldar. Warriors won't do a massive amount to marines, but Incubi can cut them down for sport.

5. Once again, depends on the size of the tombs. The C'tan alone would butcher a massive number of them, and Necrons are easily one of the most deadly forces of all time in backstory.

6. Yes, but then the Tau empire isn't exactly colossal. A very powerful one for it's size, yes, but they don't have the kind of numbers to stand against a whole chapter. Although they can beat Space Marines, an entire chapter is too much for almost any planet to bear. You almost never get entire chapters fighting in one place.

Judging by your apparent confidence, I imagine much of this is from Mat Ward or an Imperial-themed Black Library book... so it's probably not very reliable. Xenos books always seem to have a far more balanced view, if anything slightly against the xenos still. In Path of the Warrior and Path of the Seer, for example, Marines are used as a powerful enemy, and in some places much more powerful than they should be. I have no idea why an entire craftworld -with their Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Fire Prisms and various other high-end weapons pretty much perfect for dealing with marines- finds it so hard to fight a what is presumably a couple of companies of them. I'm not for a moment suggesting that marines aren't extremely powerful foes, but the extent to which they're glorified in the 'Path' books is silly. Did I mention there were 3 Phoenix Lords and some troupes of Harlequins present? Oh, and the fact that the Eldar have all of their titans/super-heavies there. And the Avatar.

You had me until you bashed Ward. The vast majority of his fluff is really good.

[scadugenga]

You had me until you bashed Ward. The vast majority of his fluff is really good.

Unfortunately whatever "40k street cred" he had prior to the GK codex got erased when that fluff crap-fest surfaced. (I do like the rules, however--that part of the 'dex is well done & solid.)

Be that as it may, however--this really isn't the place.

Nor is trying to compare Jamaica to North Vietnam/Viet Cong...yeah, that made my brain hurt.

Suffice it to say, Idharae's loss was not handled well, nor even plausible. What's an eldar craftworld's first line of defense? (Not even considering the "how the eff do we find the damn thing...) Perhaps the fact that their leadership is freaking precognitive.

You think they might notice a little something like an invasion fleet and take suitable precautions...


Let's just assume that Jamaica somehow snuck in commando soldiers, took over the nuclear silos and manage to jury rig them to launch.
There was the time the invincible american fleet got completely owned by speed boats.
There was the time the invincible american fleet got completely owned by japanese bombers
There was the time that the invincible american army got completely owned by vietnamese farmers with weapons.

This is so full of inaccurate stupidity it boggles the mind...

[chromedog]

Mme L'EG, thank you for the Dire Avenger. I have seen the Hawk God (Amusingly is that actually Horus?) reproduced in a diorama as well.



Could be either the Hawk or Faolchu (falcon) mythic creatures - they're both mentioned in the legend bits of "path of the warrior".

I have Reaper Horus figure I use as a statue of Faolchu on a 60mm base as a primary objective for my eldar army.

[Fellend]

Can maybe the admins move these post to a seperate discussion so I don't derail Eldargals thread even more?


I'm not turning this into an american army discussion. The fact remains that they lost those battles but (for example ww2) might later have handed it to their opponents.
What I'm saying is that there are certainly real life examples of "impossible" battles being lost.
I can keep counting them. Like the swedish sub that snuck past all the american army and launched it's payload on NY. That wasn't theoretically possible but it did happen (in an excercise).

Thing is, all they really need to do is get in and create enough havoc to "win" and according to the fluff (not me as many seems to think) the SM do this kind of thing all the time. Am I saying that this fluff is anything but SM porn. No, most certainly not. But there's lots of examples of these things happening.
Destroying a Craftworld with marines should be easier than a planet. A craftworld have things which can be destroyed with out exterminatus weaponry, like life support systems, walls, engines, command centers and so on.


And as for the farseers. I've already agreed that we don't know how they managed to get onto the craftworld in the first case. But some fluffy examples can be:
The Chaos gods/the Emperor really wanted it dead and created warp intereference making it impossible for the farseers to see (because lets face it, if the farseers could forsee everything they would never lose anything. Malantai surely wouldn't have been possible)

They had a mexican standoff. No one wanted to fight and they just headed straight for each other assuming that the other would not be stupid enough to not back away.

I could go on. But this is already turning into a wall of text. Technically the Eldar should never lose. They can forsee the future, are the most advanced race out there and apparantly their craftworlds can take on entire fleets and win with ease. (fleets, not sector fleets)
But they do. Often, because of 1: they are not the "heroes" of the story and 2: obviously their powers aren't as great as they'd like to believe.


As for the warhammer examples (I'm not turning this into a RL discussion. I just wanted to point out that invincible armies have lost before due to strange circumstances)

Tyranid Invasion = Fluff examples DOW2, Ultramarines second book. Yes in both of these cases there was PDF defending the civilian population but it wasn't them taking the fight and stopping the invasion. They were merely defending their homes. And not doing a very good job of it at that.

Ork Wagh: Actually to lazy to find an example of but in almost every game and every book we 4-10 marines killing off orks like they are nothing. it's not hard to imagine what a 1000 marines could do. Actually in Iron Snakes they propose pitting the entire chapter against the Wagh and most of the tops seem confident of victory.

Daemon world: Once again to lazy to look through all the chapters. But if you are curious check on lexicanum where it mentions a chapter of marines that goes into the eye of terror to butcher a few planets and then comes back.

DE: As I've already mentioned Iron Snakes. Also in Soul Drinker. and that was hardly a 1000 marines. But in both these cases we have to assume that the incubi were off drinking with the succubi somewhere.

Necrons: I might have gone overboard on the C'tan thing. I was sure that it was mentioned in the Blood Ravens books and Dow games. But I can't find it so I'll have to retcon it to just a tombworld.

Tau world: Depeding on where you look it says that the damocles crusade was a piece of cake (BT codex) versus the longer version that describes it as a tough campaign so I'll concede this one as well due to lack of information. Then again, there's never been a fight with a whole chapter of SM against tau.


In conclusion:because this has turned into a waaaay too long rant. There's plenty of fluff to establish the SM's destructive power. I find it funny that Anggul mentions that it is from Matt Ward or Black Library and says it's not very reliable. Is there such a thing as reliable fluff? All fluff is fluff. Whether you agree with it or not. Don't get me wrong I don't think 1000 Marines should be able to take a craftworld, but it's been said that they can during circumstances that we don't know and we have plenty off maybe just as badly written fluff that establish that they can do just as hardcore things if they really want to so it's not just one piece of offish fluff.

[Thornblood]

Whilst I do think it is stupid that a single chapter can destroy a craftworld, we are not taking into account serfs/auxillaries/servitors/thralls.

In Prospero Burns and then Battle of The Fang we learn that the Space Wolves have thousands of chapter serfs- called Aettguard whose duty it is to run and defend the Fang. One Chapter on a power trip could easily raise the population of an entire sector or so and never have them turn up on the books for the actual battle outcome.

There are loads of roman battles where they never reported the losses of the auxiliaries, merely that 'no roman was killed- it was a massive success' which helped with propaganda.

And the Imperium is loosley based on the roman empire.

Thats my two cents anyway.

[eldargal]

Oh there are plenty of ways a Space Marine chapter could take on a Craftworld, all of which involve having massive support from the Imperial Navy, but even so. The problem is none of that is mentioned in the Idharae piece, and that is the problem. The destruction of a Craftworld is a huge thing, something seldom attempted and possibly only ever achieved at Idharae. Yet all we know is that the Invaders were involved, and they simply do not have the fleet or the manpower to do that. That is the problem, not tha Idharae was lost, but that it was lost with so little explanation as to render the scenario ridiculous.

[Valkerie]

Perhaps the author was assuming that Idharae is one of those micro craftworlds that is only 'tens of miles across'. I could see a single Marine chapter taking out something that is only a thousand or so square miles by themselves. Anything bigger than that, not so much.

You have to remember, no matter how tough you are, I shoot you enough times, you'll go down. And if you're invading a craftworld, you're attacking their home. Their back is well and truely against the wall, they have nowhere else to go. That will lead to desperate attacks from the entire population, as well as whatever defensive systems the Craftworld itself has. Plus, I think that might be a situation where the Avatar itself would be likely to appear, probably backed up by every Wraithlord and Wraithguard on the ship.

I think part of the problem is, we have a hard time truely comprehending just how big these things are. We casually throw out terms like, it's as big as a star, without considering just how much territory that would be.

Of course, some of it is just Space Marine fan fest. They're so bad ***, they can do anything! After all, they're SPACE MARINES! :)

[Fellend]

As you said some are big as a star. We don't really know anything about Idharae's size or defensive capabilities (maybe it just fought of a tyranid invasion?)

And I just want to defend myself by saying I'm not really that big of a SM fan. I'm just saying that GW are, they do produce articles, books and codexes making SM seem completely unstoppable.

[eldargal]

I've got nothing against Space Marines myself, I understand that they are the protagonists and Eldar will lose in some capacity when they face them (excluding novels where the Eldar are the protagonists, obviously). I have no issue with this. What I do have an issue with is Eldar being treated like cannon fodder, they aren't Orks, or immortal self repairing robots, or daemons that can't truly die. They don't charge stupidly at Space Marines just so they can be shot at but that is sadly how they are often written in such a way.

The problem with Idharae is that no details are given. There are plenty of ways how it could happen, but none are given. It just says one SM chapter assaulted a Craftworld and won and without any details that is implausible.

You don't need to defend yourself, this has been a polite, constructive debate with differing opinions, nothing more.:)