Archon Soul Trap vs. Mephiston

[Cereal n' Milk]

I was playing a game with my DE against BA, and my Archon charged and killed Mephiston. I immediately go to use my Soul Trap, but my opponent points out that he is not an Independent Character. The rule for Soul Trap states that it works for Independent Characters and Monstrous Creatures, but we agreed that the rule sounds like it was meant for Special Characters/HQ and Monstrous Creatures.

RAW says it doesnt work, but what about RAI? WE both thought it was allowed, but I wanted to see what other people thought...

[DaveLL]

I was playing a game with my DE against BA, and my Archon charged and killed Mephiston. I immediately go to use my Soul Trap, but my opponent points out that he is not an Independent Character. The rule for Soul Trap states that it works for Independent Characters and Monstrous Creatures, but we agreed that the rule sounds like it was meant for Special Characters/HQ and Monstrous Creatures.

RAW says it doesnt work, but what about RAI? WE both thought it was allowed, but I wanted to see what other people thought...
RAI-wise, I'll agree with you; it sounds like an oversight, though honestly I can't think of a good way to word it that truly gets around the problem. As worded, by RAW it also won't work against the Decapitator, Marbo, and probably a few others...

[brains]

If your archon killed Mephiston, then you shouldn't even bother with the soul trap. He's badass enough as it is

[Image]

Mephiston is neither an independent character or a monstrous creature. While I know this seems odd for RAI, RAW indicates that soul trap does not work on him. Simply because he is a single model, HQ choice does not make him anything more than his rules indicate.

Nonetheless, you did still kill him and you should be happy about that! :)

[DarkLink]

RAI is RAW. This issue is crystal clear. Mephiston is not an IC, so you can't benifit with Soul Trap.

If you want to make up your own houserules and use them, go ahead. But neither RAW or this imaginary RAI lets you do this without houserules.

[The Defenestrator]

I'm sorry to say DarkLink is correct. While it may *sound* counter to the intent, it's a pretty cut and dry rule. I think this is the case simply because there's no clear-cut 3rd category for those single model exceptions out there like Mephiston, Marbo, Lone Wolves, the Decapitator, and so on.

[rogue.trader.voril]

Can't steal what he doesn't have... the dark gods would never allow it :D Agree with DarkLink and The Defenestrator.

[Angelofblades]

Same thing applies to Sanguinor, who isn't an IC either. Honestly, I'd be more impressed if you managed to kill Sanguinor instead of Mephiston.

[steelmage99]

RAI is RAW.

The game is designed, balanced and play-tested with the rules as they are written.

Infantry moves 6", models with BS 4 hits on threes, only one save may be taken against a wound and so on.



PS. The first one to mention TMIR gets the "I didn't get the point-prize".

[eldargal]

I'd like to know why Mephiston doesn't have the IC special rule, it seems absurd. But without that or Monstrous Creature he is unaffected by Soul Trap. He is still affected by Agonisers and Husk Blades though, can't say I've had much trouble with him thus far.

[AbusePuppy]

I'd like to know why Mephiston doesn't have the IC special rule, it seems absurd. But without that or Monstrous Creature he is unaffected by Soul Trap. He is still affected by Agonisers and Husk Blades though, can't say I've had much trouble with him thus far.

Because, I dunno, being able to hide a T6/2+ model in a squad would make him even more powerful? His fluff does mention that he's turned into an angst loner now and that he might be some kind of badass antihero. Doy you really want a lose cannon like that standing around with your normal troops, giving them bad ideas?

[eldargal]

So he is more of an independent character than an Independent Character? That makes even more sense.:p

[isotope99]

I'd like to know why Mephiston doesn't have the IC special rule, it seems absurd. But without that or Monstrous Creature he is unaffected by Soul Trap. He is still affected by Agonisers and Husk Blades though, can't say I've had much trouble with him thus far.

He doesn't have IC so that you can't hide him in a squad or a transport (except if you use his personal storm raven). He'd be nigh-on unstoppable against certain armies otherwise.

The flip side of this discussion is that you can use the soul trap against sanguinary priests, which is one of the easiest way to get the boost vs blood angels.

Huskblade/shadowfield archons definitely go near the top of the anti-mephiston list even without the soul trap.

[dannyat2460]

I'd like to know why Mephiston doesn't have the IC special rule, it seems absurd. But without that or Monstrous Creature he is unaffected by Soul Trap. He is still affected by Agonisers and Husk Blades though, can't say I've had much trouble with him thus far.

Because Mephiston is brick hard the only things that kill him are high S, Ap 1 or 2 or rending/power weapons, I use him a lot now instead of my 2nd landraider in 1800 and he normaly goes up the left flank un aided by the rest of my force, my oponent normaly acts in two ways they ever mob mehiston with everything they got which normaly isnt enough or they move quite quickly away from him into the path of my assault force and when combined with wings and fleet hes fast enough to catch/keep up with the rest of my army. Now if he had a squad with him they would be getting all the lascannon shots passed onto them and he would be able to go into transport with then also it would be too hard to beat.

now an arcon must have been lucky with his shadow field rolls to not be squashed by the walking tank but with a 2+ inv i would normaly go against the squad he was with to cause a Ld cheak then just run him down.

but back to the main point no IC = no soul trap

[Nosmo75]

RAI is RAW.

PS. The first one to mention TMIR gets the "I didn't get the point-prize".

What does TMIR stand for?

[MaltonNecromancer]

Fluff-wise, I got the impression that Mephistion was basically supposed to be this terrifying near-Daemon that the other Blood Angels respect... but don't want to be too near. The fact that he's mastered the Red Thirst is inherently "unnatural" to the rest of the chapter, and I can't see it being too big a mental leap to him being quietly ostracised. For his part, I imagine Mephiston sees the world in a very different way to the rest of the chapter (and humanity) for that matter. The idea of leading others being essentiallybeneath him; he is a demigod in the form of man - ordering troops is a job for those who cannot win a war single handedly.

Rules-wise, I think it's actually quite a good way to "limit" his power - he can't benefit from the ablative wounds a squad would give him; he's high-invulnerable as is, but by keeping him locked on his own, he remains vulnerable. Same with The Sanguinor. To my mind, neither of them are quite human any more, being closer to Daemon, and so it fits - a Bloodthister can't attatch to a squad of Chaos Space Marines.

Just my tuppence.

[AbusePuppy]

RAI is RAW.

The game is designed, balanced and play-tested with the rules as they are written.

Infantry moves 6", models with BS 4 hits on threes, only one save may be taken against a wound and so on.



PS. The first one to mention TMIR gets the "I didn't get the point-prize".

FWIW, IDK if RAI is a QED for ITT 40K FAQs, BTW. YMMV.

[Tynskel]

Fluff-wise, I got the impression that Mephistion was basically supposed to be this terrifying near-Daemon that the other Blood Angels respect... but don't want to be too near. The fact that he's mastered the Red Thirst is inherently "unnatural" to the rest of the chapter, and I can't see it being too big a mental leap to him being quietly ostracised. For his part, I imagine Mephiston sees the world in a very different way to the rest of the chapter (and humanity) for that matter. The idea of leading others being essentiallybeneath him; he is a demigod in the form of man - ordering troops is a job for those who cannot win a war single handedly.

Rules-wise, I think it's actually quite a good way to "limit" his power - he can't benefit from the ablative wounds a squad would give him; he's high-invulnerable as is, but by keeping him locked on his own, he remains vulnerable. Same with The Sanguinor. To my mind, neither of them are quite human any more, being closer to Daemon, and so it fits - a Bloodthister can't attatch to a squad of Chaos Space Marines.

Just my tuppence.

I wouldn't say closer to Daemon. They are the opposite.

I would put them as the closest anyone in the Blood Angels has come to representing the ideals of their long dead Primarch, Sanguinius (Emperor, Bless his Soul!).
Overcome all odds to to rise above all others; demonstrating that Humanity Can and Will always overcome adversary!

[Valourousheart]

What does TMIR stand for?

Google thinks it means "Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation."
But what the heck that means in context of this thread, I have no idea.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I wouldn't say closer to Daemon. They are the opposite.

What, they're C'tan?

Daemons aren't demons. They're not evil servant of Satan; they are the anthropomorphic personifications of the emotional essences of the life within the universe. As such they are not good or evil; they simply are. While a Bloodthirster may commit acts that are undoubtedly evil, it doesn't have any choice in the matter. It cannot do anything other than kill - it is the physical representation of the idea of violence.

Daemon Princes are not demons either. They are humans whose personal powers have been psychically amplified by the emotional essences within the warp. The physcial changes are a side effect of this.

Mephiston and The Sangunor are, to all intents and purposes, Daemon Princes: they are humans who have been amplified by exposure to psychic power, well beyond the usual levels.

However, just because Chaos is the most visible face the Warp chooses to present, does not mean it is the only face the Warp possesses. The Immaterium is simply a real of ideas - the 40K universe is an awful place, and so most of those ideas are awful. But the Immaterium isn't Chaos. It's just the place where ideas coalesce and the Ruinous Powers are the "biggest" ideas there.

Basically, Khorne is Wal-Mart, Tzeench is Tesco, and Sanguinius is your FLGS; small, less powerful, but with a devoted following.

The opposite of daemons has been clearly defined as the C'tan and the Necrontyr. There's a reason they're engineering humanity to become Pariahs. Once we're all soulless (and have no connection to The Warp), the Chaos Gods can draw no further power from the universe, and they "die". Gods need prayer badly.

But just because you're not a servant of the Ruinous Powers doesn't mean you're not a Daemon; that epithet is an Imperial one - one that comes from millenia of propaganda. Psychic powers are like dynamite: you can use it to kill, or use it to dig mines with. It's the person who determines how the tool is used. If the Daemon Princes represent the lowest that psychic powers can reduce a human to being, the Sanguinor (as you said) perhaps represents the highest point: noble, brave, selfless. An angel, if you will.

But in real terms, still a daemon.

[addamsfamily36]

I'd like to know why Mephiston doesn't have the IC special rule, it seems absurd. But without that or Monstrous Creature he is unaffected by Soul Trap. He is still affected by Agonisers and Husk Blades though, can't say I've had much trouble with him thus far.

I think that fluffwise, Mephiston has moved into a different plain of existance. By defeating the red thirst, he possibly lost part if not all of his soul. Some believe in defeating the curse he is now on the path of demon hood, whether that be bad demon or a different type of higher being **** knows.

Also it says that a dormant part of his geneseed kicked in awakening part of sanuinius's power. Now i dont care how cool that soul trap might be, but im sure that mephiston's souls would jsut be like how bout no?


jsut my thoughts

poorly written sorry as im playing zombies on COD.

[somerandomdude]

Taking everything that has been said and touching back onto the original post, it's clear from a fluff standpoint (and obviously a rules standpoint) that Mephiston should not be affected.

Now try using the fluff to explain the immunity of Marbo, Creed, and dreadnoughts, or the susceptibility of C'Tans, Bloodthirsters, and Tomb Spyders (don't have a lot of knowledge of them, but I didn't think they had much going on inside). :D

[MaltonNecromancer]

Marbo - War has destroyed his soul and left nothing left but a burning need to kill.

Creed - His soul is too indomitable to be defeated by so callow a trick. Or possibly he can just mentally outwit the Soul Cube. It is CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDD!!! after all.

Dreadnoughts - The Wolverine plot exemption act of 1993. In a word: Adamantium - Fills All Plot Holes Or Your Money Back.

C'Tans - Irony? They are conscious, so perhaps their "We're all soulless" shtick is just good propaganda on their part?

Tomb Spyders - Maybe Soul Cube smell of pie. Never met a Tomb Spyder that didn't love pie. Perhaps their programming is encoded as emotions rather than thought, and that makes them susceptible? They do seem less "inteligent" and more atavistic than other Necron constructs.

Bloodthirsters - They're just stupid? Really, really stupid? I mean big, slobbery dog stupid.

[Tynskel]

What, they're C'tan?

Daemons aren't demons. They're not evil servant of Satan; they are the anthropomorphic personifications of the emotional essences of the life within the universe. As such they are not good or evil; they simply are. While a Bloodthirster may commit acts that are undoubtedly evil, it doesn't have any choice in the matter. It cannot do anything other than kill - it is the physical representation of the idea of violence.

Daemon Princes are not demons either. They are humans whose personal powers have been psychically amplified by the emotional essences within the warp. The physcial changes are a side effect of this.

Mephiston and The Sangunor are, to all intents and purposes, Daemon Princes: they are humans who have been amplified by exposure to psychic power, well beyond the usual levels.

However, just because Chaos is the most visible face the Warp chooses to present, does not mean it is the only face the Warp possesses. The Immaterium is simply a real of ideas - the 40K universe is an awful place, and so most of those ideas are awful. But the Immaterium isn't Chaos. It's just the place where ideas coalesce and the Ruinous Powers are the "biggest" ideas there.

Basically, Khorne is Wal-Mart, Tzeench is Tesco, and Sanguinius is your FLGS; small, less powerful, but with a devoted following.

The opposite of daemons has been clearly defined as the C'tan and the Necrontyr. There's a reason they're engineering humanity to become Pariahs. Once we're all soulless (and have no connection to The Warp), the Chaos Gods can draw no further power from the universe, and they "die". Gods need prayer badly.

But just because you're not a servant of the Ruinous Powers doesn't mean you're not a Daemon; that epithet is an Imperial one - one that comes from millenia of propaganda. Psychic powers are like dynamite: you can use it to kill, or use it to dig mines with. It's the person who determines how the tool is used. If the Daemon Princes represent the lowest that psychic powers can reduce a human to being, the Sanguinor (as you said) perhaps represents the highest point: noble, brave, selfless. An angel, if you will.

But in real terms, still a daemon.


I am sorry dude, but they are not daemons: Sanguinor and Mephiston do not become one with the warp, and for eternity bound to the warp. They will not live forever.

Yes, they are superhumans. So are Space Marines--- would you call them daemons? No.

Mephiston and Sanguinor Exemplify traits of Sanguinius. Was Sanguinius a Daemon--- no. He banished Daemons, and was 'tempted' by Daemons, but he refused to give in. He is Dead. A Daemon doesn't die.

Lastly: Daemon Princes ARE Daemons. They have been granted life eternal.

[Nungunz]

Lastly: Daemon Princes ARE Daemons. They have been granted life eternal.

Depends on which codex you ask. ;)

[MaltonNecromancer]

I am sorry dude, but they are not daemons: Sanguinor and Mephiston do not become one with the warp, and for eternity bound to the warp. They will not live forever.

You haven't read the Blood Angels codex closely enough...

As far as The Sanguinor goes...


in the pages of a single iron-bound volume are recorded the accounts of the Sanguinor's manifestations across the millenia... A few among the chapter argue that he is a coalescion of the Primarch's nobler side... The Sanguinary Guard believe irrefutably him to be none other than Azkellion, founder of their order, preserved against the withering millenia by the Emperor's grace... The Inquisiton in particular worry that he is some kind of psychic construct.

Notice all the italicised quotes?

Made from psychic essence? What, like the Warp is? And he can just "manifest" out of nowhere "where needed"- the only way he could possibly do that in the 40K universe is if he could use the Warp for personal travel, like if he's, say bound to the Warp? What else is bound to the Warp and just appears on the battlefield wherever it chooses? Then of course there's the fact "he" is clearly many millenia old, and described as preserved against death... Seriously, if preserved against death doesn't mean "live forever" what does it mean?!

Sounds exactly like your definition of a daemon to me. Daemons aren't evil or good. They're psychic manifestations of the greatest powers in the Warp - the Ruinous Powers are the most powerful, therefore most daemons are chaotic in nature. But that doesn't mean they are the only powers and daemons in the Warp!

He's a Greater Daemon of Sanguinius; Sanguinius was percieved as an angel, so the Sanguinor takes an angelic form.

When it comes to Calistarius / Mephiston, it's even more blatant!


lay entombed... his broken body on the verge of death... through sheer force of will... he became something far more than he had been, reborn as Mephiston, Lord of Death. His resurrection.... there are rumours that when he mastered the Black Rage, something altogether more terrible took it's place.

The guy didn't die through sheer force of will! Psychic powers providing immortality to the point he is described as having mastered death?! Comes back with a statline far in excess of any other marine in te entire 40K universe?

Again, fits your definition perfectly. He's a daemon prince, just not a chaotic one, so no freaky mutations.

They're both daemonic, just not in the service of chaos ( because daemon is a non-judgemental word, and does not automtically imply Chaos taint, no matter how much the Imperium might claim otherwise.)

[danny2460]

will everyone stop moaning about the fluff of this no IC/MC = no soal trap

let your Archon go play with something else that will give him the benefits

[somerandomdude]

will everyone stop moaning about the fluff of this no IC/MC = no soal trap

let your Archon go play with something else that will give him the benefits

I don't think we've been "moaning" about that for a few days. Lately, it's developed into a discussion of what Mephiston really is, and I put a fun little question out concerning possible fluff explanations for others (while fully acknowledging that the rules are clear). No moaning, just some fun discussion. :D

[w7west]

........ Which is why you save yourself 5 points and take the agonizer + djin blade

[Tynskel]

Depends on which codex you ask. ;)

Actually, no. They are Daemons in both codexes. What is different is their 'station'.

In Chaos Marines, they have been blessed by their chosen god, and given eternal life. They are at the top.

In the Daemon Codex, they are daemons, but all other daemons think of them as lesser beings--- but non-the-less, they are still Daemons. However, at the Bottom.

[TSINI]

Google thinks it means "Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation."
But what the heck that means in context of this thread, I have no idea.


TMIR Transaction Master Inquiry Report
TMIR Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation (North Dakota)
TMIR Touch Me, I Rock


All of these are entirely relevant to this conversation

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Firstly as stated by many, if its in the rules in black and white well you cant just change it now can you. Unless you want to be accused of having your own versions each game. If there not a IC well find something else to use it on.

Secondly about this daemon thing, seriously look who there Primarch was. He had genetic mutations, could fly and when he died a part of every soul of the BA's got corrupted and they just called it the Red Thirst. It has nothing to do with genetics, just his blood was corrupted in some small way and like a disease they keep it to themselves now....enough said.
Primarch was corrupt= genetic corruption of all BA's =Mephiston and who ever else.

[Duke]

Secondly about this daemon thing, seriously look who there Primarch was. He had genetic mutations, could fly and when he died a part of every soul of the BA's got corrupted and they just called it the Red Thirst. It has nothing to do with genetics, just his blood was corrupted in some small way and like a disease they keep it to themselves now....enough said.
Primarch was corrupt= genetic corruption of all BA's =Mephiston and who ever else.

Heretic!

Also, I'm on the side of not ic = not working

Duke