WYZIWIG question and your thoughts

[thecactusman17]

This is a question about WYSIWIG -- not scratchbuilding, not proxies, but wysiwyg on models.

the question came up as I'm preparing for a Rogue Trader tournament, and while my primary question has largely been answered by the event organizer (thankfully in my favor), it is an interesting question because it comes on models with "of course!" upgrade options.

My specific question was in regards to the Harlequin's Kiss -- rarely is a weapon so ubiquitous as the signature weapon of the Harlequins. However, the weapon is unusually rare in terms of actual models, from across the long range of Harlies models. Of probably some 30-40 different models since the rogue trader era, there are perhaps 6 different Harlequins Kiss models, only two of which are currently found in the Harlequins model range. I am fortunate to have most, if not all, of the models in question. But that is still perhaps only half of the models that I will be fielding. For the record, this tournament organizer has stated that all of my classic range models, at least, can be counted.

Another good example might be Frag Grenades on Marines, in editions where they are not a default piece of wargear.

When you come to these sorts of issues, what is your perspective on running them or allowing them. In a tournament situation, would YOU allow a player with models that were not all WYSIWIG to wargear and minor weapons to count them? Remember, this is in a tournament setting.

[boo_barr]

At the lower levels of a tournament, if I have the opponents army list then I don't really mind for things that an entire unit will have. One-offs or cases where you have just a few in the unit need to be modelled, otherwise the controlling player could always just elect whichever model is most convenient, on a per-turn basis.

For your case, it was silly for the opponent to complain. Same goes for modelling grenades on earlier marines. Anything that's default equipment doesn't need to be modelled, and anything that's ubiquitous across a unit is usually acceptable to many tournament players.

[Mike Dunford]

If an item is standard equipment that a model must have - like grenades for marines in the current codex - I wouldn't care about WYSIWYG. There's no option for the model not to have the equipment, so who cares.

If an item is a purchased extra, but it's been purchased for every applicable model in the army, I probably wouldn't care about WYSIWYG. I'll have to remember that the option exists, but won't have to worry about which models have the option, because they all do.

If an item is a purchased extra that's been purchased for some units but not others, I wouldn't care if the item doesn't appear on every model in the appropriate units, but I might complain if it's not represented on at least one or two models - there, we're starting to get into the point where keeping track gets harder. (Ork stikkbomms are an example of this.)

If the item is purchased on a model-by-model basis, and has not been purchased for every model in the unit, I will get very unhappy and complain if they are not WYSIWYG. This is particularly true for things where base contact is important, or the range is very different from the rest of the unit's weapons. (For example, if a unit of grots has one grotherd with a grot-prod and one with a grabba stikk, I will complain if both are modeled identically.)

[Schnitzel]

I find WYSIWYG particularly annoying, especially because of the hard core followers out there. I'm not going to sit down and model grenades on each of my Chaos Space Marines. And I'm certainly not going to spend hours chopping up close combat weapons or slinging bolters on them for them to be completely WYSIWYG. If its included in the units profile in their codex its not a big deal IMHO. Its the upgrades and such that really need to be WYSIWYG.

The purists out there who demand ever single frak grenade out there are lame. Any one who tells me my grenades don't count because they can't see them, I don't want to play with anyways.

[krispy]

i agree that the default equip should not need to be shown on a model, but i have 2 questions about WYSIWIG

1: if a model has a pistol in a holster then can you then claim it is a plasma pistol for the sake of it being in a holster?

2: on older models i have there are some marines with "combi weapons" - could i use these as bolter/melta combos or bolter plasma/combos depending on my army build? i mean they are gw minatures with combi weapons ist just that they look nothing like the now standard bolter melta combo weapons / bolter plasma weapons.
/krispy

[Schnitzel]

1: if a model has a pistol in a holster then can you then claim it is a plasma pistol for the sake of it being in a holster?


I don't see why not. Makes sense if you have a Sgt with a chainsword and pointy-hand or something.
You should probably clear it up with your opponenant first. Any reasonable person should be cool, but sometimes we don't always get that do we.

[Mike Dunford]

i agree that the default equip should not need to be shown on a model, but i have 2 questions about WYSIWIG

1: if a model has a pistol in a holster then can you then claim it is a plasma pistol for the sake of it being in a holster?

Almost certainly.

I say almost because I can conceive of at least one set of circumstances where I might complain - let's say that the PP's are in a unit like assault marines, where everyone can't have PPs, but more than one model can. In a case like that, I think it's fairest if there's some way for the opponent to distinguish the models with PP from those without. So if all the models had identical-looking holstered pistols, but some are plas and some are not, I might complain.


2: on older models i have there are some marines with "combi weapons" - could i use these as bolter/melta combos or bolter plasma/combos depending on my army build? i mean they are gw minatures with combi weapons ist just that they look nothing like the now standard bolter melta combo weapons / bolter plasma weapons.

In a friendly game, I'd never have a problem with that. In a tournament, it would depend on the exact army build and minis used. If it's clear who is who, I'm totally cool with it. But if identical-appearing weapons are being used as combi-plas in one unit and combi-melta in another, I might not be.

That's how I'd look at it as an opposing player. In both those cases, however, a strict reading of the rules might say that both your examples are legal - it's a pistol, it's in a holster, it's on the model, it's WYSIWYG; it's a GW-built combi-weapon, it's WYSIWYG. I might object to the official in a tourney, but I could easily be overruled. "Legal", after all, isn't always the same as "right".

[Culven]

My opinion on WYSIWYG (for other players) is that standard equipment doesn't need to be completely WYSIWYG. Unit-wide options should be represented in some way on a few models at least. Model-specific options should be modeled so that the model can be easily identified.

As to the "Plasma Pistol in a holster", I prefer to not do so on my models (see below), but if my opponent does so on an easily distinguished model, I probably won't have a problem with it. However, this could become a problem if such proxying is done throughout the army and I am expected to remember an extensive list of such items.

For myself, I try to model all of the options in some way so that I can keep track of which units/model have what. Otherwise I will forget at some point.

[Aldramelech]

I do use holsters in my army for plas pistols. Not all just some. Melta bombs are the biggest pain, If my guys have them then they are on the model and as my guys are IG and dont come with them this causes me no end of problems scrounging them. I wish that GW would provide for all options in the Plastic sets.

[TSINI]

1: if a model has a pistol in a holster then can you then claim it is a plasma pistol for the sake of it being in a holster?
/krispy

i agree with what has been said above. most people won't have a problem as long as its easiliy distinguishable. for example i have both the forgeworld DKOK commissars, they both have power swords and holstered pistols. now in some games i need to scrimp on points and so would count them as las-pistols, but in more extravagant games - plasma pistols. as long as its easy to point out that character at the beginning and say "he has a plasma pistol" and later in the game when removing casualties for example, the other player can identify which characters had plasma, then its all good.



2: on older models i have there are some marines with "combi weapons" - could i use these as bolter/melta combos or bolter plasma/combos depending on my army build? i mean they are gw minatures with combi weapons ist just that they look nothing like the now standard bolter melta combo weapons / bolter plasma weapons.
/krispy

as long as its a plasma combi, it can be a bolter/plasma weapon. no one should have a problem with that at all.

I think consistency is the key when it comes to wysiwyg

[TheKingElessar]

As far as I'm concerned, anything that isn't basic equipment has to be modelled. Some of my Marines don't even carry Bolters.

[Vindur]

The Harliquin situation is still a bit strange. I wonder would the tourney organiser allow someone to field an all twin lightning claw vanguard squad with only half of them having claws modeled.Power armour lightning claws are a rare sight, I think theres only 4 models with them and 3 of those only have 1.

[DevilUknow]

you pretty much have to stock up on that veteran squad with the claw and the claw from the commander.

either that or do some cunning knife work on some Assault terminator arms (sure they'll look like a kid wearing those increadible hulk gloves, but that's almost BETTER IMHO)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

If an item is standard equipment that a model must have - like grenades for marines in the current codex - I wouldn't care about WYSIWYG. There's no option for the model not to have the equipment, so who cares. I really wish the rulebook at least stated that certain ubiquitous wargears like grenades and pistols don't need to be modeled. It'd be a bit easier to make the point.

I have issues with my rhino's storm bolters. The damn things just keep breaking off, getting lost, etc. When I play I just tell people a guy is firing from the tank hatch (note: NOT the fire point), and measure it accordingly, but I'm not a tournament player and I'm sure this would be at least partially frowned upon.

[Mike Dunford]

I have issues with my rhino's storm bolters. The damn things just keep breaking off, getting lost, etc.

That kind of thing kept happening to me, too. The best work-around I've found is to not glue in things like the hatch and bolter on rhinos, the weapons on razorbacks, any of the turrets on my ork stuff, etc. I transport them in separate compartments, and drop them into place when it's game time. I've also magnetized some stuff, where drop-in won't work.

[keithsilva]

I try to play in alot of tournaments and I am a laid back guy, as long as you point he has this i am ok. I think WYZIWIG is more for the players who show up with some wierd stuff. I mean I am not going to take all my marines and glue pistol to them, and if some ever said I coundnt use them because of this i would laugh back my stuff and leave, people like that ruin games.

I mean look at the eldar models, scorpions they have plasma greandes, but when yuo buy them they dont have them as well as the phoinex lords are the same way, what i can use them because they dont show every wargear they have on them lol, its not are fault GW doesnt provide.

[Culven]

I mean I am not going to take all my marines and glue pistol to them, and if some ever said I coundnt use them because of this i would laugh back my stuff and leave, people like that ruin games.
I mean look at the eldar models, scorpions they have plasma greandes, but when yuo buy them they dont have them as well as the phoinex lords are the same way, what i can use them because they dont show every wargear they have on them lol, its not are fault GW doesnt provide.
You tend to be referring more to the standard equipment. I think most players are familiar with what a typical unit has as standard. What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) has more to do with being able to identify which model has which options. For example, CSMs have a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CCW. Many players will mix the different weapons when building new models, but older models may only have the Bolter that they could have under the previous codex. This isn't really a problem, since the players should know it is legal, and they should have the codex to hand to verify when called on it. However, if a model is given a Plasma Gun to replace its Bolter, it should be modeled so that everyone knows what the model has.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not a tournament player, but it's always struck me as interesting that the rulebook only specifies WYSIWYG for characters. I personally don't find it difficult to keep track of the wargear in an army full of proxies, so I don't have very high WYSIWYG standards from my opponents, but absent some sort of tournament rule, I don't see any general rule that non-character models have to be WYSIWYG.

[Culven]

I don't know that WYSIWYG is a requirement so much as something that one does simply to be polite (or in my case due to forgetfulness ;)).

[Pariah Stevo]

As long as a player specifically comes out and tells me about anything that is not wysiwyg i am ok.I play orks and it's led by boss Redtoof. He has a giant toof longer than the length of his face. As part of my storyline, he uses the toof to charge and impail the enemy.... I count his big red toof as and Attack squig(+1 A). I explain that my boss has and attack squig to every opponent i play so there is no confusion, because i would be mad if my oponent was like 'my boss has and extra attack in the middle of the game. is what really burns me is when some one has extra armor or a power weapon on a model and then halfway in the middle of the game i hear " yeah, i didn't pay for it." thanks, would have been nice to know.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The pistol thing annoys me because they could have in many cases just made rapid fire weapons have a rule to fire once at 12 inches and count as assault and then no one would have to be sorting out all this modeling business.


is what really burns me is when some one has extra armor or a power weapon on a model and then halfway in the middle of the game i hear " yeah, i didn't pay for it." thanks, would have been nice to know. I see a lot of the opposite. Transport gets stunned at a critical time during the game and the guy just blurts out "Good thing I've got extra armor..."

[Grimgore]

lol, for me it's just the opposite... i really don't mind if my opponent is not completely WYSIWYG. standard equipment, like Chaos Space Marines, not necessary but the upgrades are(i.e. plasma gun). but for my army it's a must... that way i don't forget what i'm kitted out with.

oh the bane of getting older... :-(

Grim

[Culven]

I see a lot of the opposite. Transport gets stunned at a critical time during the game and the guy just blurts out "Good thing I've got extra armor..."
Does it really matter? This is one of those things that I think doesn't really matter. It doesn't tend to change the opponent's tactics, and it only affects an outcome that the attacker has no control over anyway. Now, if Extra Armour increased the armour value, that would be different. Besides, there used to be a fluff explaination that the vehicle is internally reinforced.

[Nabterayl]

Certainly it wouldn't likely change your tactics as an attacker, but it could materially affect the outcome of the game. This is one of those situations where, unless my opponent was a friend that I trusted, I'd just ask to see the guy's army list. Model it, tell me upfront, or show your list when asked - any of those solutions work for me, as they're all informationally equivalent to full-on WYSIWYG.

I'll only take it amiss if you don't model something, don't disclose it until relevant, and then expect me to take your word for it that it really is on your army list.

[Culven]

I can agree with this. It just seemed that EmperoreternalXIX was implying that there would be some tactical implications if the player had known that the vehicle had extra armour. Honestly, I don't care if it has extra armour, and the only time it will matter is when I roll poorly and didn't manage to do some real damage tot eh vehicle.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

What I meant to imply wasn't that extra armor is a critical visual thing (because it isn't, and even if it is, it's easy enough to depict. Plus if the guy is trying to stop the thing, he will ask if it has it anyway...)

What I was getting at was people who did not PAY for extra armor just conveniently pointing it out as they suffer hits it negates, when in reality they haven't got a damned thing, heh.

That said, I find extra armor pretty worthless on just about everything anyway.

[40kGamer]

I'm more of a painter/modeler so I am big on all of my models being WYSIWYG. I expect any special models in the opponents army to display their unique gear too. Anything that applies to an entire unit doesn't bother me in the least. Even things like Meltabombs on IG veterans - as long as I am told in advance that the unit has the demolitions upgrade and the guy with the demo charge is modeled, the Meltabombs don't matter to me - I know they all have them!

[Aldramelech]

Melta Bombs!!!!!!!!!!!! Arrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bane of my bloody life! lol

[ChrisW]

i had a craptacular mistake once at a tourny....

usually what i have is whats on the model, i got too much stuff to not go that way. but i forgot i swapped out one of my vet sergents that was supposed to have a power weapon but the serg i put in had the bp and chainsword combo. it was pointed out in my third game in of seven and i theirby had a oh crap moment and just made him a chainsword serg. the opponent was cool with it as i did pay the points and all my sergents had power weapons but i didb't feel right as it didn't represent what it was.

probably too extreme but i like that my opponet can see what is supposed to be on the models without question & should know what they do.

[Jive Tyrant]

I collect Nids and hate the idea of having to model Bonded Exoskeleton and Reinforced Chitin on Fexes. And what about scuttling Genestealers? Or leaping Warriors?

Some things are just impractical to model, so as long as it's on the army list, it's fine by me.

[Kanaellars]

To me, a holster can be any pistol, and so long as the opponent makes clear to me "this is a power weapon" and "this is a combat weapon" in not going to be too picky.

For example, I have an opponent who uses chainswords for power and combat..... the power weapons are painted blue, the chainswords arnt.

[terricon4]

I would have to say that penalizing people for small differences is bad practice. For the marines with frag grenades as opposed to older version minatures I think that a player should simply be able to alert the opponent of non moddle spacific upgrades. If only two devastators have heavy bolters then they should both be modeled properly but for harlequins where the whole squad is uniform in this one regard simply state to your opponent before hand. Having printed army rosters ussualy can solve all these problems, just hand to your opponent and clarify on certain units.