Harlies and Vect

[Drakonize]

I saw this on fritz40k:

Vect with his Dias, nightshield and flickerfield

His bodyguard, Harlequins, but more importantly a Shadowseer.

Does this mean to shoot at the Dias, you are under the 2d6x2(-6) penalty?

It seems fishy to me, but there is no rule 1.) Stating models who can't pick transports by themselves can't accompany Vect, 2.) Veil of Tears says "any unit she[The Shadowseer] is with".

All this clocks in at 650 points for a 13AV Ravager with 5+ save that can be shot at a maximum of 18 inches.

[Tynskel]

if the Transport is Vect's dedicated transport, then units may attach to him in the transport.

The Shadowseer's power does not protect the transport: the Shadowseer is not joined to the Transport, the shadowseer is joined to Vect and is just embarked in the transport. Remember, the shooting attack has to target the Shadowseer/unit attached to. The enemy cannot target the unit embarked (no visible model to draw line of sight).

If the Shadowseer's power was an aura (like Shield of Sanguinius), then the Transport would be protected.

[DarkLink]

Does this mean to shoot at the Dias, you are under the 2d6x2(-6) penalty?


It wouldn't be 2d6x2-6". It is 2d6x2 for targeting purposes, and -6" when you measure range. They are separate.The Shadowseer only affects whether or not you can draw LOS to the target, and the nightshield only reduces the range of your weapon by 6".

And Tynskel's right anyways, so it's a moot point.

[Archon Charybdis]

Also, Dias is a Portuguese surname, a dais is a raised platform. More seriously though, the army list entry for Vect on pg. 82 says he may take the Dais of Destruction for X points... and that's all. No options for upgrades, and no reference to the Raider options on pg. 91 (unlike all other units that can take a Raider as a transport). The Dais may count as a Raider for special rules like Duke Sliscus' Low Orbit Raid, but it can't take Raider upgrades.

[DarkLink]

That's just the base cost. If you look at the rules for the Dias of Destruction, it is a Raider with 3 dark lances and AV 13. Then it says "Other than this, it is treated exactly like a Raider (see pg. 44)". You are allowed to take upgrades, because it is treated exactly like a Raider that just happens to have a base cost of 200pts and gets 3 dark lances and AV 13.

[RIGHT-Titan]

I'm wondering if they FAQ the fact that you can't fire all 3 lances while moving.

[Drakonize]

Playing devils advocate, I think the wording of Veil of Tears needs to be clearer. It states ANY UNIT she is WITH. Not attached to, not joined by, with. There are three units (Vect, harlies, dias) travelling together, with each other.

The night shield point is definitely correct, but i think the combo is still useful because most tank busting weapons have Range>24", so the veil is effective, while the few remaining are usually melta type/range weapons, so the night shield will be useful.

I realize the RAI is obviously that this does NOT work, but with RAW I am on the fence.

[Tynskel]

RAI is RAW.
Bothers me when people say this; all rules are interpreted dependent on the context of how they are written. There is at no point in the 40k Rulebook, Eldar Rulebook (they also have Harlies with the same phrased entry), and Dark Eldar Rulebook that states that an embarked unit is 'with' such unit.

Why then, would with be 'all of the sudden' be reinterpreted to include everything they are 'touching'.

[Drakonize]

RAI is RAW.
Bothers me when people say this; all rules are interpreted dependent on the context of how they are written. There is at no point in the 40k Rulebook, Eldar Rulebook (they also have Harlies with the same phrased entry), and Dark Eldar Rulebook that states that an embarked unit is 'with' such unit.

Why then, would with be 'all of the sudden' be reinterpreted to include everything they are 'touching'.

Or the entire army for that matter? She is raiding "with" them. ;P

Ok, just wanted to try and see if this had merit. I will just have to fantasize about this "super Ravager".

[Greatereldanesh]

Question: I didn't see anywhere in the codex that Vect could take Harlies as a retinue, nor did I see that Harlies could take a transport. What am I missing?

[BuFFo]

Question: I didn't see anywhere in the codex that Vect could take Harlies as a retinue, nor did I see that Harlies could take a transport. What am I missing?

Vect's Dias.

[Archon Charybdis]

Vect's Dias.

Dais :rolleyes:

[rle68]

Also, Dias is a Portuguese surname, a dais is a raised platform. More seriously though, the army list entry for Vect on pg. 82 says he may take the Dais of Destruction for X points... and that's all. No options for upgrades, and no reference to the Raider options on pg. 91 (unlike all other units that can take a Raider as a transport). The Dais may count as a Raider for special rules like Duke Sliscus' Low Orbit Raid, but it can't take Raider upgrades.

incorrect sir
if you read the bottom of the entry which you didnt mention it says very clearly that the dais is treated exactly as a raider see page 44 .. there you have it you may buy raider upgrades for the dais if you choose

sorry didnt read the next post already pointed out my bad

[Greatereldanesh]

OK so just this get this clear in my head:

Vect joins a unit of Harlies before the game starts. Then they all can use his dedicated transport?
They aren't really his retinue just a joined unit right? The dais rule just states there needs to be 9 models plus vect on the dais before the game starts.

I this how its to be explained within all the rules?

Please bear with me and my slowness to grasp this concept.

[rle68]

There is nothing else to explain you have it right there 9 models must join vect to use the dais. it doesnt say anything about who what or how, only that they must be on the dais.

take any 9 model unit you want and voila add them on the dais with vect before the game and have at it

[eldargal]

I strongly disagree with this. The codex always states exactly what upgrades a unit can take, the unit options a Hekatrix can take are listed under the option to take a Hekatrix, for example. Now people are arguing that because the Dias follows the rules for a Raider as per page 44, it can take ugprades that are not listed for it, simply because the Raider can take upgrades going by its list entry on page 89. This is how the rules are written, and there is nothing which says RAI would be any different, beyond people wanting it.

That's just the base cost. If you look at the rules for the Dias of Destruction, it is a Raider with 3 dark lances and AV 13. Then it says "Other than this, it is treated exactly like a Raider (see pg. 44)". You are allowed to take upgrades, because it is treated exactly like a Raider that just happens to have a base cost of 200pts and gets 3 dark lances and AV 13.

[BlackEnsign]

Sorry if this bursts a bubble, but when writing an army list you have to use the Army List section not "Denizens of the Dark City". Denizens of the Dark City is referred to from the Army List to tell you what the rules are for the options you have taken.


Under the Army List entry for Asdrubael Vect, it says under options:
"Vect may be mounted upon:
- The Dais of Destruction - 200 points."

You cannot then pay 10 pts for a Night Shield from the Raider entry, as this is not in the Dais' entry.

[UnDeadEldar]

Ok what am I missing? If a Raider "must take 9" including Vect, that makes the entire "force" (Vect, Shadowseer, Harlies) a Coherent unit, therefore veil of tears on the whole thing, and misderection. No questions. Now another question I have if anyone can answer please? Where in the codex does it say a Shadowseer must be accompanied by a harliqun troupe? All the codex says under unit type is infantry. So why couldn't I just throw the psyker with Vect and some Truebornes, into a Dais, and because the rules state "otherwise treat as a Raider" which obviously means upgrades are available. I haven't seen anything in the rules or valid substantiated evidence in any forum that holds water against this. Other than the obvious 3+ save crowd who knows this would obliterate them. Maybe GW shouldn't let lawyers play the game. Thanks for any feedback

[BlindGunn]

<SNIP> Where in the codex does it say a Shadowseer must be accompanied by a harliqun troupe?
Shadowseer is a unit upgrade - need to buy a unit of 5-10 Harlies and he's a character upgrade to the unit.
(see Pg 87 - Unit Composition)

So why couldn't I just throw the psyker with Vect and some Truebornes, into a Dais, and because the rules state "otherwise treat as a Raider" which obviously means upgrades are available.
Partially correct - Dais rules specifies Raiders rules on Page 44 - which are Raiders Rules - NOT vehicle upgrades.

Available upgrades are in the Army list proper - with their costs. None are listed for the Dais. Sorry.

(I have the same issue with Bjorn in the Space Wolf Codex - all Dreads can be drop-podded - EXCEPT Bjorn!)

Transports rules in the BRB specify you can only transport 1 unit at a time. Units, however can have as many independent characters join them at any time.

IF they had defined Shadowseer as an independant character instead of a unit upgrade, you're right, he could have joined Trueborns and ridden the Dais.


Maybe GW shouldn't let lawyers play the game. Thanks for any feedback
I agree - there are too many Lawyers out there. Unfortunately, there are a lot of misconceptions as well.

I learn quite a bit from reading what some people say. You just have to give them chances to prove their points. Just try to avoid the Flame Wars and the "Yes-You-Can: No-YoU-Can't!" Arguments that offer no real proof or nit-pick on the english language. Look for people who reference the rules and tell you where to find it.

Luck!

[Archon Charybdis]

Partially correct - Dais rules specifies Raiders rules on Page 44 - which are Raiders Rules - NOT vehicle upgrades.

What's more, the FAQ explicitly states that this is the case.

Q: Can the Dais of Destruction take any of the vehicle
upgrades available to Raiders? (p82)
A: No.

[BlindGunn]

What's more, the FAQ explicitly states that this is the case.

Q: Can the Dais of Destruction take any of the vehicle
upgrades available to Raiders? (p82)
A: No.
Dang! You actually READ the FAQs? :eek:

(Sadly, I had the FAQ open on my desk for something else at the time!) :o