When Does a Gun Count as a Close Combat Weapon?

[Nabterayl]

I could use a hand with jogging my memory, fellow Loungers ...

I remember many months ago reaching the conclusion that if you have a special weapon, you have to use it. Ordinarily of course this isn't a problem, as most people would much rather use a power sword than a regular CCW, if they have both, and in any case page 42 seems to require that you use the special weapon, under A normal and a special weapon.

However, there are occasions when models armed with a powerfist would rather not use it (e.g., regular terminators attacking IG with a powerfist - the terminators can probably kill the guardsmen without using their powerfists, and using their powerfists exposes them to the IG powerfist, which might actually kill a terminator or two). Months ago, I remember concluding that however much you want to, you have to use the powerfist if you don't have any other special CCWs.

I also remember concluding that the terminators' storm bolters didn't count as CCWs, NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS and the introductory paragraph to FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS notwithstanding.

Now, many months later, I'm re-reading the rules and I can't figure out why a terminator with a storm bolter and powerfist (or a meganob with a power klaw and twin-linked shoota) can't choose to use his storm bolter as a regular two-handed CCW, which, per FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS would preclude him from using the powerfist. This situation isn't covered under any of the four scenarios listed under FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS, and indeed, the introductory paragraph to that section seems to imply that you can choose to fight with a rifle's butt.

I'm not trying to angle for an advantage here, but I like to be able to say why a rule is what I think it is, and I'm having trouble reconstructing my thinking. Can somebody help me out?

[Culven]

Only Pistols are generally given special rules that allow them to count as a CCW. There are a few other exceptions, and these are noted in their rules. Any weapon not noted as being a close combat weapon will not be considered as such.

[Nabterayl]

I know that's how it's typically played, and it's even how I play it, but as I'm staring at page 42, I keep getting tripped by how to disregard the mentions of "rifle butts" under NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS and how to disregard "Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle's butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon." Doesn't that imply that, for instance, a CSM could if he wanted to use his bolter in close combat (thus receiving only one base attack) instead of his pistol and CCW?

[Culven]

I see what you are on about, and I suppose one could claim that. However, this would seem to conflict with page 35, ". . . models fight . . . with their full number of Attacks". If one is forcing the model to use a rifle instead of its pistol and CCW, would this really be using its full number of attacks? It also tends to go against GW's mindset of making combat as brutal as possible, and the models not holding back, even if the player wants them to.

[Nabterayl]

Ah, thanks for pointing that out to me. I note also, "and use any special close combat attack they have."

So that raises an interesting question for me. Not that I play IG, but is Commissar Yarrick not allowed to fight with his bolt pistol and CCW? Does he have to use his battle claw?

[Mike X]

Ah, thanks for pointing that out to me. I note also, "and use any special close combat attack they have."

So that raises an interesting question for me. Not that I play IG, but is Commissar Yarrick not allowed to fight with his bolt pistol and CCW? Does he have to use his battle claw?

I've also wondered this but never brought it up.

Let's say you have a Space Marine sergeant with a power fist and a bolt pistol. Can the sergeant opt for using the pistol in close combat, rather than the power fist? And if he can, does his initiative still drop to 1?

[Nabterayl]

Let's say you have a Space Marine sergeant with a power fist and a bolt pistol. Can the sergeant opt for using the pistol in close combat, rather than the power fist?

I'm afraid not. As Culven has so helpfully reminded me, page 35 says:


All engaged models will fight in this turn's Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have.

That seems to rule out using just the pistol, since a single pistol is pretty clearly not its own special attack. And page 42 points out that when fighting a normal and a special weapon,


All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties (see rulebook errata (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf) for revised wording).

Thus, page 35 says that you can't fight with just the pistol, and page 42 says that if you fight with the pistol and the powerfist, all your attacks must be subject to the powerfist. So there is no way to get around having the sergeant deliver all his attacks at S8 I1.

Seemingly the same logic would apply to Yarrick, unless somehow a pistol and a CCW, taken together, override page 35. I can't see how that could be so, but that makes Yarrick's equipment very strange.

[Culven]

The Yarrick question leads us to the problem when a model has three or more weapons. How should this be addressed? Should one select which weapons the model will use and then determine the bonuses/disadvantages that will apply for that combination (regardless of what other weapons the model is carrying) OR do the bonus/restriction rules take into account all weapons the model is carrying (not just those it is using/wielding)?

[BDub]

I know that's how it's typically played, and it's even how I play it, but as I'm staring at page 42, I keep getting tripped by how to disregard the mentions of "rifle butts" under NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS and how to disregard "Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle's butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon." Doesn't that imply that, for instance, a CSM could if he wanted to use his bolter in close combat (thus receiving only one base attack) instead of his pistol and CCW?

This is in regards to any models that do not have a CCW and given as an example of what a model may be using to get his minimum of 1 attack. In other words all models get at least one attack in melee even if not expressly listed as having a CCW by imagining them using rifle butts, hands & feet or even a nearby rock.

[TheKingElessar]

As far as I can recall, only Eldrad and Calgar can opt not to use a Special Weapon in CC, because they carry multiples (staff, Witchblade / Gauntlets, Power Weapon)

Yarrick is indeed forced to use the Claw.

[Mike Dunford]

I suspect that the only reason Yarrick has two normal weapons is to stop people complaining that the miniature isn't WYSIWYG.