Am I missing somthing about Dark Eldar?

[Coffeemugg]

So I see allot of lists with embarked Blaster Spam or Splinter Weapons with the intention that you can fly up full speed and rapid fire your opponents face off with poison or Blow up a tank while embarked.

Do Dark Eldar ignore the shooting while embarked vehicle rules?

I don’t see a paper fast tank moving 6" and attempting to shoot all the weapons inside the vehicle with hopes of surviving the next turn.

It just seems like that the general thoughts on Dark Eldar is that they can just fly up at cursing speed and shoot without getting out of the skimmer, and I don’t see any rules supporting these thoughts.

Has this stuff been happening?

I haven’t played any games against DE recently but am just noticing this general trend in threads.

[Nungunz]

So I see allot of lists with embarked Blaster Spam or Splinter Weapons with the intention that you can fly up full speed and rapid fire your opponents face off with poison or Blow up a tank while embarked.

Do Dark Eldar ignore the shooting while embarked vehicle rules?

I don’t see a paper fast tank moving 6" and attempting to shoot all the weapons inside the vehicle with hopes of surviving the next turn.

It just seems like that the general thoughts on Dark Eldar is that they can just fly up at cursing speed and shoot without getting out of the skimmer, and I don’t see any rules supporting these thoughts.

Has this stuff been happening?

I haven’t played any games against DE recently but am just noticing this general trend in threads.


Nada, they still have to follow all the standard rules for embarked infantry. Most of the vehicles themselves can still fire all weapons while moving at cruising speed, though.

Move 12", blow up a tank with the vehicles, splinterfire the contents to death next turn. Or something like that I guess.

[Tynskel]

also, you can move 12", hop out, n' shoot.

[Drew da Destroya]

I think the general idea is to fly up on turn one, turn two move 6 and unload on some unlucky unit, and hug cover like crazy.

[Mazelf]

what I dont get is how to fly up DE raiders or ravagers into your opponents face without getting boltershot wrecked or destroyed on the following enemy shooting phase!

[Nungunz]

what I dont get is how to fly up DE raiders or ravagers into your opponents face without getting boltershot wrecked or destroyed on the following enemy shooting phase!

4+ cover save and bolters only glancing on 6 helps. Bolters aren't going to do much.

A marine with a bolter will only have a 5.56% chance to glance a raider so:

Destroyed: .926%
Immobilized: .925%
Weapon Destroyed: .926%
Stunned: .926%
Shaken: 1.85 %

A 10-man squad with only bolters at rapid-fire range will only get 1.11 glances on a raider. Anything heavier than a bolter will have a much higher chance, of course.

[Alrik_40000]

Do Dark Eldar ignore the shooting while embarked vehicle rules?

I don’t see a paper fast tank moving 6" and attempting to shoot all the weapons inside the vehicle with hopes of surviving the next turn.

It just seems like that the general thoughts on Dark Eldar is that they can just fly up at cursing speed and shoot without getting out of the skimmer, and I don’t see any rules supporting these thoughts.

Has this stuff been happening?

I haven’t played any games against DE recently but am just noticing this general trend in threads.

They don't ignore the embarkement rules. The only thing restricting a squad's shooting is the number of fire ports the vehicle has. Since a Raider is open-topped, all of the models in the squad can fire out of it. Since splinter rifles are rapid fire, the squad has to be within 12" to shoot if they move. So a squad of Kabalite Warriors in a Raider can move to within 12" of an enemy unit and rapid fire out of it.

Splinter Racks (which let splinter pistols and rifles reroll to hit) would be a complete waste of points if only a couple of guys could shoot out of it! LOL


I think the general idea is to fly up on turn one, turn two move 6 and unload on some unlucky unit, and hug cover like crazy.

No, the general idea is to shoot out of the Raider until it goes blooey. I mean seriously, who plays like that? Do your local DE players not know the rules for open-topped transports?


what I dont get is how to fly up DE raiders or ravagers into your opponents face without getting boltershot wrecked or destroyed on the following enemy shooting phase!

The best way to avoid getting a Ravager blown up is to keep it as far away as possible, since Dark Lances have a 36" range. Why would you get a Ravager up in someone's grill, anyway? :D

Raiders, however, are usually a lost cause. All you can rely on is a 4+ flat out coversave, or a 5+ invulnerable if you took flickerfields! They're usually toast once they get that close though... LOL

I'm kind of surprised Buffo hasn't gotten in on this already...

[Drew da Destroya]

No, the general idea is to shoot out of the Raider until it goes blooey. I mean seriously, who plays like that? Do your local DE players not know the rules for open-topped transports

I didn't say anything about getting out of the transport, but you've gotta move up at least a bit first turn in order to hit the 12" rapid fire sweet spot. Then, due to the rules for shooting out of a transport, you can't move more than 6" and still shoot, so move between .5 and 6" (so assaulters hit on a 4+, not a 1+), and rapid fire the crap out of something.

Since you probably have to move more than 6 on that first turn anyway, you may as well turbo for the cover.

Obviously, it'll go boom sooner or later, but at least you got a ton of shooting done first.

[Necron_Lord]

I think with the latest 40K FAQ, the deep striking venoms with 4 blasters doesn't work. Vehicles which deep strike count as moving at cruising speed, I believe. So how will the 4 blaster trueborn be able to AS in these Duke lists one saw on BoLS so often a month ago? Or do the trueborn dismount, fire their blasters and then get mowed down in the following shooting phase?

[ArchonPhelps]

The blaster now has a range of 18" so you can stay back and take down armour a little bit safer. It has always been about trickery and hitting hard. A night shield can keep you out of range of double tap and plus the enemy should be focus on the other raiders that hold the Incubi or other nightmares of the army.

[somerandomdude]

I think with the latest 40K FAQ, the deep striking venoms with 4 blasters doesn't work. Vehicles which deep strike count as moving at cruising speed, I believe. So how will the 4 blaster trueborn be able to AS in these Duke lists one saw on BoLS so often a month ago? Or do the trueborn dismount, fire their blasters and then get mowed down in the following shooting phase?

What was in the FAQ that affected this? That rule was already in the rulebook, so nothing new should've been discovered. But yes, that was the general idea.

[The Defenestrator]

I agree that shooting from raiders is a tough proposition. To be fair, 24" threat (6" move and 18" shoot) from blasters and shardcarbines isn't horrible, but more to the point I think any sort of concerted rapid firing should be done just previous to a charge. With Dark Eldar's mobility, no unit should be going in alone; for example, move your warriors up 12", disembark 2", then fire another 12" for a 26" rapid fire. Then bring your wyches in from the other side of the board 12", disembark 2", fleet 1d6" (if you need it, otherwise poison pistol away!), and assault 6" (that's a 21-26" charge for anyone who's counting). This sort of capitalization on mobility is key with the spikey elves. Remember, even our best units aren't Grey Hunters or TH/SS terminators; you can't send them headlong into the enemy front lines alone and expect a happy outcome.

If the opposing units are dead, out of sight, out of range, or tied up in CC, (not hard to arrange with such a fast army) it really doesn't matter if you have to hop out of the raider for a turn.

[DarkLink]

A guaranteed 24" threat range isn't exactly slow. And you can always move 12", disembark 2", and shoot 18" for a total of a ~32.999999" threat range.

[SeattleDV8]

A guaranteed 24" threat range isn't exactly slow. And you can always move 12", disembark 2", and shoot 18" for a total of a ~32.999999" threat range.

Pssstt...~31.999999"

[MasterSlowPoke]

Pssstt...~31.999999"

You have to factor in the width of the base, too.

[rle68]

well for one im not taking rapid fire weapons period...the true born kitted out for 8 models should be 4 blasters 2 shard carbines and 2 splinter cannons which are all configured for assault weapons and yes splinter racks are a viable option with that number of shots ( if you include duke sliscus all splinters 3+ poison )

now as the rule for a fast vehicle moving at crusing speed allows it to fire 1 weapon, the aerial assault rules says it can fire all of them, it would not be a legitimate move to say that applies to the passengers embarked, page 66 says very clearly that passengers may not shoot if the vehicle moves at cruising speed...which is a pain for DE im not a fan of getting out shooting and then getting clobbered

[DarkLink]

You have to factor in the width of the base, too.

Right. 12" vehicle move. Disembark partially within 2" (which means the edge of the base can be 2.9999" away), then shoot and all that.

[Riotknight]

well for one im not taking rapid fire weapons period...the true born kitted out for 8 models should be 4 blasters 2 shard carbines and 2 splinter cannons which are all configured for assault weapons and yes splinter racks are a viable option with that number of shots ( if you include duke sliscus all splinters 3+ poison )


Shard Carbines can't use Splinter Racks. only the 2 cannons can, and for 8 Shots (12 standing still) I don't see how its possibly worth it when you plan on firing blasters.

[Archon Charybdis]

Shard Carbines can't use Splinter Racks. only the 2 cannons can, and for 8 Shots (12 standing still) I don't see how its possibly worth it when you plan on firing blasters.

The cannons can't use them either. The Splinter Rack rule is explicit; rifles and pistols only.

[rle68]

i stand corrected as i initially read the listing of shard carbines i was under the impression it was in the splinter rifle class but after a quick recheck its splinter weapon but not rifle so id have to agree the splinter racks are not a viable option and then i missed the rifle and pistol part .. grrrrrrr

but that just saved me 30 points for my 3 squads so that helps

[BlackEnsign]

- Under the 4th Edition Rules, it states that infantry can fire out of vehicles that move up to 12".

- In the 5th Edition, this has been changed to state that they "cannot fire" if moving at cruising speed, which is 6"-12".

I would assume that the majority of people changing from one rule book to the next would not pick up on this change on their first reading since the labels "combat speed" and "cruising speed" are new to 5th Ed. Sometimes it takes a reader with no experience of previous rules to notice that something isn't right before the experienced players realise there was a subtle change.

Of course by specifying "cruising speed", the back door is opened for rules lawyers to argue the rule is no longer in effect when moving "flat out." Then again, I don't believe any player would allow your troops to fire out of a transport that just moved 24".

[Tynskel]

The 40k Rulebook is laid out with simple rules, first, then layer on complex. The complex rules only override the simple rules if they explicitly state so.

Ex: Movement only involves infantry. Later they add vehicles. Then they add Flat Out.

[BlackEnsign]

The last part of my last most was meant to be taken as tongue in cheek...
I wasn't trying to imply that I thought you could shoot out of a vehicle moving above cruising speed, but taking a dig at certain type of player I have had the 'pleasure' to have met.
I won't go into particular detail, except to say that I am sure you have run into people under similar conditions and that it gets to the point where you can't be bothered even playing with them, let alone discussing rules!

[w7west]

Quick lesson on how dark eldar vehicles work compared to the durable vehicles of all other armies:

Step 1: Learn that your guys are safer outside of the raider. A wyches raider blowing up will destroy half of the squad, and force two ld checks. (one pinning, one 25% casualty).

Step 2: Learn that your raiders are safer once the guys are out of it. Who shoots at a raider when they are about to get owned by wyches / incubi?

Step 3: Nightsheilds. Measure out 36" on a stick or something. Mark 30" on the stick as well. Carry this with you at all times. You need to be able to visualize 36" and 30" if you hope to beat mech guard.

Step 4: Venoms are good. Really, really good. Two or maybe three is all you need, but seriously.. they are really good.

Step 5: Bust out your 30 - 36" and stare at it until it is burned into your memory right next to the bad touch your uncle gave you before he was arrested for improper use of ice cream truck.

[rle68]

Quick lesson on how dark eldar vehicles work compared to the durable vehicles of all other armies:

Step 1: Learn that your guys are safer outside of the raider. A wyches raider blowing up will destroy half of the squad, and force two ld checks. (one pinning, one 25% casualty).

Step 2: Learn that your raiders are safer once the guys are out of it. Who shoots at a raider when they are about to get owned by wyches / incubi?

Step 3: Nightsheilds. Measure out 36" on a stick or something. Mark 30" on the stick as well. Carry this with you at all times. You need to be able to visualize 36" and 30" if you hope to beat mech guard.

Step 4: Venoms are good. Really, really good. Two or maybe three is all you need, but seriously.. they are really good.

Step 5: Bust out your 30 - 36" and stare at it until it is burned into your memory right next to the bad touch your uncle gave you before he was arrested for improper use of ice cream truck.


step 6: ignore steps 1 and 2 and never use wyches

Step 7: ignore step 4... venoms seriously are you kidding? only holds 5, so what if it comes with a flickerfield raider carries 10, dark lance 65 points vs 75 points... ill take the raider for 75 with flickerfields and the shock prow when the dl gets blown off then i can ram stuff.. you cant ram with a venom

Step8: visualize against mech guard 12 dark lances destroying 50% of mech guard on turn one . then visualize smiling the rest of the game.... 24" deployment buffer.... 3 ravagers moving 12" firing 9 dark lances then 3 raiders with 3 more dark lances then any amount of blasters you have in range if you dont kill 50% youll have bad game anyways more often then not

[Dingareth]

step 6: ignore steps 1 and 2 and never use wyches

Step 7: ignore step 4... venoms seriously are you kidding? only holds 5, so what if it comes with a flickerfield raider carries 10, dark lance 65 points vs 75 points... ill take the raider for 75 with flickerfields and the shock prow when the dl gets blown off then i can ram stuff.. you cant ram with a venom

Step8: visualize against mech guard 12 dark lances destroying 50% of mech guard on turn one . then visualize smiling the rest of the game.... 24" deployment buffer.... 3 ravagers moving 12" firing 9 dark lances then 3 raiders with 3 more dark lances then any amount of blasters you have in range if you dont kill 50% youll have bad game anyways more often then not

Wow, you really didn't have to go all simple on us now.

Wyches are a great unit for killing GEQ (MEQ with the right drugs), and most of all tying up units that you don't want to deal with. Assault Marines with a Priest? Well, just charge them, stick a Shardnet on the Priest and the Sergeant, and watch them bounce off your 4++/4+ while your agonizer takes down their Priest.

Venoms are one of the most effective choice in our book. Being able to put out 12 poisoned shots a turn while moving 12" is something that shouldn't be under estimated. At 2000, I run 4 which can shut down 2 Devastator Squads/Long Fangs/Heavy Weapon Teams on the first turn. 5 guys don't really matter when they're carrying squads of Trueborn- who should be in no more than 5 guys to begin with- or a Blaster/Blast Pistol Warrior squad. Also, Dark Lances and Blaster are plentiful in the book, long range anti-infantry? Not so much. Most of our choices focus on close range- either rapid firing or hand to hand. Venoms don't suffer from 1 gun syndrome like Raiders do either.

I'm not saying that Venoms are the end all be all, I'm just saying not to discount them entirely. Taken in numbers they put out a scary amount of shots, and even just supplementing your Raiders with a few will really help against enemy infantry with long range anti-tank weapons.

Lastly, I don't know what kind of Mech Guard you play against, but at 2,000 points, I bring at least 15 AV 12 tanks. Now, I may be doing Dark Eldar wrong, but I've yet to make an army that has the 32 Dark Lance shots in it to bring down half of those on the first turn. And judging by what you posted, your 3 Raiders and 3 Ravagers can barely kill a third of a standard Mech Guard army- and that's if you're hitting, penning, and wrecking/exploding with EVERY, SINGLE, shot you have.

Even if you do manage to kill all the Hydras with your Ravangers, and all 3 Vendettas with your Raiders, guess what!? There's still enough Chimeras and Autocannons left on the board to blow your 6 pathetic tanks off the board, and then what are you going to do? Try and run across the board at them? Good luck with that, Mr. 24" buffer...

[rle68]

Wow, you really didn't have to go all simple on us now.

Wyches are a great unit for killing GEQ (MEQ with the right drugs), and most of all tying up units that you don't want to deal with. Assault Marines with a Priest? Well, just charge them, stick a Shardnet on the Priest and the Sergeant, and watch them bounce off your 4++/4+ while your agonizer takes down their Priest.

Venoms are one of the most effective choice in our book. Being able to put out 12 poisoned shots a turn while moving 12" is something that shouldn't be under estimated. At 2000, I run 4 which can shut down 2 Devastator Squads/Long Fangs/Heavy Weapon Teams on the first turn. 5 guys don't really matter when they're carrying squads of Trueborn- who should be in no more than 5 guys to begin with- or a Blaster/Blast Pistol Warrior squad. Also, Dark Lances and Blaster are plentiful in the book, long range anti-infantry? Not so much. Most of our choices focus on close range- either rapid firing or hand to hand. Venoms don't suffer from 1 gun syndrome like Raiders do either.

I'm not saying that Venoms are the end all be all, I'm just saying not to discount them entirely. Taken in numbers they put out a scary amount of shots, and even just supplementing your Raiders with a few will really help against enemy infantry with long range anti-tank weapons.

Lastly, I don't know what kind of Mech Guard you play against, but at 2,000 points, I bring at least 15 AV 12 tanks. Now, I may be doing Dark Eldar wrong, but I've yet to make an army that has the 32 Dark Lance shots in it to bring down half of those on the first turn. And judging by what you posted, your 3 Raiders and 3 Ravagers can barely kill a third of a standard Mech Guard army- and that's if you're hitting, penning, and wrecking/exploding with EVERY, SINGLE, shot you have.

Even if you do manage to kill all the Hydras with your Ravangers, and all 3 Vendettas with your Raiders, guess what!? There's still enough Chimeras and Autocannons left on the board to blow your 6 pathetic tanks off the board, and then what are you going to do? Try and run across the board at them? Good luck with that, Mr. 24" buffer...


wow how simple can you be.. no1 and foremost you want to play 2k thats your choice but standard tourn lists top out at 1850 so stick that in your pipe and smoke it

second i never posted my entire list and ill take 12 dark lances and the 12 blasters i have against any 1850 mech guard list any day period end of sentence!

let me inform you about a unit called kabalite trueborn a unit of 8 with 4 blasters and 2 shard carbines and 2 splinter cannons pumps out alot of shot firing from inside or outside the raider. Add the duke to this unit and that little space marine unit of yours is dead pdq!

that simple space marine assault unit with a priest your so worried about that your so proud of tying up with your wyches well ill just shoot them and kill 4 outright and 2-5 more when they fail their saves from poison so unless you know what im playing dont let your humming bird butt overload your pelican mouth.

venoms are first and foremost an anti infantry vehicle only yes i said only! the raider can do the same thing that the venom can do only better with more options and as the venom doesnt exist right now you dont have any! unless of course you went and converted a bunch of crap to make them.

and yes you are doing dark eldar wrong no dark eldar army out there has that many dark lances my first list with the new dex only had 17 but i stopped at 12 dl's and 12 blasters

wyches are not worth their points.. you want to use them to tie up units then be my guest ill let you tie up a unit with 3 up armor saves versus your 4+ invo and when you get wiped out ill laugh at you hard!

and lastly you must really suck at rolling cus i dont roll anywhere near the low numbers you wish i rolled when dealing with armor and if you play 40k by math hammer alone you must not win much either

[eldargal]

You must be insane if you think Wyches aren't worth the points. It contradicts practically everything I and numerous other Dark Eldar players have been experiencing. You personally might not like them, but that doesn't equate to them not being worth the points.

[rle68]

As a long time dark eldar player i am speaking from experience . they are not worth their points they dont kill anything that well they cant kill anything by shooting they are a stop gap attrition unit period

kabalite trueborns are way more effective then they are simply by killing whatever they shoot at

and ill type it yet again
4+ saves versus a 3+ that get wounded on 3's versus needing 4's and 5's to wound yes the wyches willl lose more often then not

simply put if you want to tie up a unit then by all means use wyches i wish to kill units so i wont

and in the last dex wyches we way more effective then they are now thats a fact you want to go along with the crowd be my guest ill let GW sum it up best no one is buying wyches cus they arent that great now ill take stats from them and leave it at that

and yes ill even go so far as to say helions are a better troop unit then wyches ever thought of being in the new dex

[eldargal]

Cite the GW document which states Wyches aren't selling well. Because I know one of the stores my brother and I frequent can barely keep them in stock. I'm sure other stores experience differs, I'm not going to go make grandiose claims about sales based on that.

And how does your 'long term' experience with Dark Eldar (I've been playing them since their original launch, too) change the fact that the new Wyches are, in fact, new, and slightly different. Go read BuFFo's opinions on Wyches, he is playing battles with them and is also a long term DE player.

[rle68]

Cite the GW document which states Wyches aren't selling well. Because I know one of the stores my brother and I frequent can barely keep them in stock. I'm sure other stores experience differs, I'm not going to go make grandiose claims about sales based on that.

And how does your 'long term' experience with Dark Eldar (I've been playing them since their original launch, too) change the fact that the new Wyches are, in fact, new, and slightly different. Go read BuFFo's opinions on Wyches, he is playing battles with them and is also a long term DE player.

a direct quote from the gw's sales rep from a phone call when i placed a re stock order only 4k boxes have sold versus 10k for helions and kabalites that good enough for you?

and i have been playing and winning tournies with dark eldar for a looooooong time

slightly different? have you even bothered to read what wyches can do now? they cant kill tanks they dont get blasters they only limit some models attacks they dont hit any better then they did they wound only on 4's 5's
their combat drugs are limited versus what they were please spare me

and yes buffo is a accomplished de player and i have read what he says.doesnt make his opinions the only one nor the only correct one either

[eldargal]

No it is not, because you can not prove to anyone else the conversation took place or that that was what he said. It is called 'anecdotal evidence'.

[rle68]

No it is not, because you can not prove to anyone else the conversation took place or that that was what he said. It is called 'anecdotal evidence'.

Oh ok then since its not printed out somewhere then its not valid?

that response just says youre a troll

[eldargal]

I don't even know howto respond to such blatent stupidity. Read this for a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

[rle68]

I don't even know howto respond to such blatent stupidity. Read this for a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence


you tried to jump in my face and i pointed out to you where i got my facts from that wasnt good enough for you now stop

all you can do is try to attack my fact you cant change the fact i pointed out to you limitations of the wyches, witch is what you started whinning about in the first place

[rle68]

And as an fyi im taking my 0 wych unit DE to play tomorrow against some nids and while im there im going to help a buddy set up his DE army but i guess i dont know anything about the DE now huh eldargal?

[eldargal]

I am asking for actual evidence to support your claim that Wyches aren't selling. Your opinions regarding Wyches I disagree with and thats fine. But you say Wyches are not selling, and can provide no supporting evidence, your supposed conversation with one sales rep being anecdotal. That is not stupid, that is called 'referencing' and is the basis of history, science and any other field where evidence matters. I can provide my own anecdotal evidence which directly contradicts yours. Until sales figures are published by GW, such assertions are purely speculative.

[somerandomdude]

let me inform you about a unit called kabalite trueborn a unit of 8 with 4 blasters and 2 shard carbines and 2 splinter cannons pumps out alot of shot firing from inside or outside the raider. Add the duke to this unit and that little space marine unit of yours is dead pdq!


That Kabalite Trueborn unit that you're extremely proud of is 23 more points (and that's without including their own raider and the Duke) than a unit in a Venom with four blasters, for only two (or four when still) more shots (and most of those shots being shorter range). You need to focus on efficiency, which is what the Venom gives you.

First and foremost, it's a vehicle, so you can move your Trueborn around wherever necessary.

Secondly, you can move 12 inches and still fire 12 anti-infantry shots, as opposed to your Raider Trueborn which can only fire one Dark Lance.

Third, if you take the time to model it (and if you come out and say this is your real problem then I'll accept that) it will be smaller and easier to hide than a Raider.

Fourth, and probably most importantly, you now have a "unit" that can A) fire 4 blasters into a vehicle to possibly destroy it and B) fire 12 poison shots against anyone (including the occupants). If you went with your setup, you'd be forced to go against the same group, which means either wasted points on the blasters, or wasted points on the carbines/cannons/Duke.

Also, I understand if you don't want to live by mathhammer, but you can't make your case to others in a dream world where your weaponry always beats the odds! You should also try to be clear on what point you are trying to make, because if you say something like "12 dark lances will take out half an IG army" you can't counter back with "well you don't know my list, there's also 12 blasters."

Make your point and be done. Don't goad people into a "discussion" where you call them a troll and claim that your kung-fu is stronger than theirs.

[DarkLink]

Make your point and be done. Don't goad people into a "discussion" where you call them a troll and claim that your kung-fu is stronger than theirs.

I've seen him "discuss" his opinion on what units a player should and shouldn't take before. I'd just put him straight on the ignore list, and save the trouble.

[Drew da Destroya]

that response just says youre a troll

That's the second time Eldargal's been called a troll by a 10 year old. Must be true!

Seriously man, read the article on anecdotal evidence... it'll clear up the confusion you seem to be having.

Because it's not printed, it is NOT valid evidence, as it's simply anecdotal and there is no record of the conversation ever having occurred in the first place.

If you wanted to provide a recording of the conversation, then it'd place it into the category of actual evidence, and then the argument would be over... although it should probably be backed up by sales figures, since the person you spoke with may not have been informed properly.

And Eldargal was never questioning your "leet DE skillz", your generalship, list building ability, or even grammar (which I probably would've jumped on, honestly). She was questioning your assertion that Wyches weren't selling well, since she is having a different experience.

[Dingareth]

Make your point and be done. Don't goad people into a "discussion" where you call them a troll and claim that your kung-fu is stronger than theirs.

Finally a voice of reason appears! Well, beside Eldargal, Drew, and Darklink that is... ;)


That Kabalite Trueborn unit that you're extremely proud of is 23 more points (and that's without including their own raider and the Duke) than a unit in a Venom with four blasters, for only two (or four when still) more shots (and most of those shots being shorter range). You need to focus on efficiency, which is what the Venom gives you.

This here is right on the money, I'd just like to add that unlike Blood Angels who loves their Meltagun/Flamer combo- we don't stick around quite as well. As such, units need to be focused, because they're going to get one chance to do one job. I'd rather have a small unit of Trueborn hop up, destroy a Chimera, and then have their Venom shoot up what's coming out then have your over pointed unit destroy a Chimera, get shot up by the rest of the army, and then have the 1 or 2 guys left shoot up the squad that came out in your next turn.

It's just a simple question of efficiency, and unfortunately that little super unit of yours just doesn't come close.

[Ro'jero]

Deep strike using the Duke Sliscus. Is the main thing. Or Turbo Boost first turn, trying to maneuver and pick apart an oppoinent's weak spot.

[Necron2.0]

With my current 2000pt DE army I've tabled Blood Angels forces, both mechanized and assault based lists. I've also rocked mechanized I-Guard (my Wyches always carry haywire grenades). The only challenge I've had was with pure infantry I-Guard. For myself, I would never take Kabalites, except for trueborn, and then I only take the minimums (three units of three, for a total of 6 Dark Lances). Generally I don't find vanilla Kabalites worth the points ... not when compared to what you can do with Wyches.

[Kamsm8]

Generally I don't find vanilla Kabalites worth the points ... not when compared to what you can do with Wyches.


I love Wyches, and I'm generally a fan of relying on close combat rather than shooting to win games. But I've come to realize that a squad of 10 plain Kabalites in a Raider with Splinter Racks is a godsend, and is often a game changer or the hero of the day. I once had a squad of them, who were trapped in an immobilized Raider and surrounded by a Chappy and his assault marines, gun them all down in a single shooting phase. 20 shots hitting on 3's and being re-roll-able is nothing to sneeze at. And it's not terribly expensive either. I usually only miss one or two shots.

[w7west]

what I dont get is how to fly up DE raiders or ravagers into your opponents face without getting boltershot wrecked or destroyed on the following enemy shooting phase!

nightsheilds C:

[Lerra]

I'm a big fan of wyches, but karbalites have their place. An army that uses more than one type of troop tends have more versatility than an army that spams the same troops choice. I find it handy to have a shooty scoring unit in the army, too. I'd rather have 2 squads of wyches and a squad of karbalites than 3 squads of wyches.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Lots of ummmm... interesting(?) comments here...

okay.. venoms? they rock. I use two to disgusting effectiveness. Throw some nightshields that second splintercannon on, and throw some trueborn on em. you want something to blast through infantry? two splintercannons on the trueborn. done. Who cares if the splintercannons wound on a 4+ because you'll be rolling a metric crapton of them.. and people will HATE you for this simply because they just go 'I have to roll HOW MANY SAVES??' Psychological shock right there.

razorwing jetfighter. I tried one last night in a 1000pt game. with four necrotoxins. against daemons. it was just LOL. that 2+ to wound was just too good to pass up. "roll your saaaaaaves". This again was psychological shock.

dual ravagers with dissie cannons. yes please. go for it.

Hellions.. if you're not using these as a shock troop/flanking unit.. what's wrong with you? :D

The only time you should shoot with Hellions is when you're in charge range. Softens the target up for the final blow. these things have the potential to take on anything, really. GK's, swarmlords, hive tyrants.. whatever. Just make sure the target's got a few wounds on it before rushing in.

So, all in all, I found that going against troop heavy or horde armies (or armies that don't do much mech) a mix of hellions, incubi, ravagers, raiders, venoms, a jetfighter and some warriors led by Baron Sathonyx will see you through the game.

[thecactusman17]

Nutsy, you'll find that the S6 shots of the bog standard monoscythe missiles have that same great "how many wounds!?" response, I'd highly encourage them. Plus, they are great options for shooting at a unit hiding behind a light tank, where you can tag the squad AND the tank together.

I personally don't take the Ravagers, but that's just me. A ravager with triple Disintegrators is friggin' terrifying to Terminators and the like.

Mechainzed Guard and Dread Blood Angels/Grey Knights are Wych food. Toss 10 haywire grenades their way and your work is usually done. I find that on average, unmolested wych units on dread/vehicle suppression duty (assuming they hit on 6s) kill around two vehicles per game, more if they can hit on 4s or automatically of if the vehicle targets are in a squadron.

Mathematically, there's nothing wrong with Trueborn. But I have seen these guys go for an entire game, shooting every turn, and not kill a single tank or model. Too many eggs, one pricy basket.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Nutsy, you'll find that the S6 shots of the bog standard monoscythe missiles have that same great "how many wounds!?" response, I'd highly encourage them. Plus, they are great options for shooting at a unit hiding behind a light tank, where you can tag the squad AND the tank together.

only against toughness four or less. plus, you gotta love the fact that a necro can pin if it doesn't kill off a lot of little dudes in the first shot.


I personally don't take the Ravagers, but that's just me. A ravager with triple Disintegrators is friggin' terrifying to Terminators and the like.

agreed. and the amount of shots two of them can pump out can scare the crap out of stuff like warriors, venomthropes, tervies and tyrannofexes. I'd be suprised if a venom didn't drop from one volley.. but then again the dice are fickle.


Mechainzed Guard and Dread Blood Angels/Grey Knights are Wych food. Toss 10 haywire grenades their way and your work is usually done. I find that on average, unmolested wych units on dread/vehicle suppression duty (assuming they hit on 6s) kill around two vehicles per game, more if they can hit on 4s or automatically of if the vehicle targets are in a squadron.

sure, that's definitely one option to use. Others are dark lance spam (as much as we can nowadays) and once the armor is dealt with, run in and chop chop chop.


Mathematically, there's nothing wrong with Trueborn. But I have seen these guys go for an entire game, shooting every turn, and not kill a single tank or model. Too many eggs, one pricy basket.

minimum squad, two cannons, in a venom with the extra cannon = someone's gonna die and it's almost always the target.

btw, mathhammer is a joke. you can run figures til you're blue in the face, and when the dice say no you end up blaming something. it's just false hope and bad faith. You're better off concentrating on tactics than hoping odds carry you through. Such as kitting your squad out with complimentary weapons. Strength with strength, dakka with dakka, and range with range. Or anything that receives or creates buffs.

[thecactusman17]

I don't think you understand:

I have run these guys about three or four times with different gear (all blasters, dual cannons, mounted and unmounted). They. Have. Not. Killed. Anything. And each time, they lasted all 6 turns, firing for at least four of those.

Mathhammer or not, dice or not, this unit just doesn't want to perform for me, so I am more than happy to leave it back in Commoragh.

[Uncle Nutsy]

man, that's just crazy. dual splintercannon trueborn in a dual splintercannon venom SHOULD kill something at least once per game. sorry to hear that the dice have been less than forthcoming with you.

I guess that's how games go sometimes.


incidentally, I got a chance to try out Drazhar and The Decapitator. Decapitator is nice but the fact he can't assault on the turn he appears really screws his usefulness over. Yeah sure he killed a tervigon but that was just with pure dumb luck. But Drazhar.. LOL. This guy turned a nid prime with lashwhip bonesword combo into green gooey paste. Go eternal warrior!