Dark Eldar HQ's

[Caldera02]

So I'm still testing out the various HQ's, trying to settle on which I will use. So far I've tried:

Leltith + The Duke
The Duke + Archon

Next I will try:

Vect + Archon, which is considerably more expensive.

I'd like some opinions from the DE players or if you know these particular HQ's.

1) Vect; is he worth the points? His wargear and special rules. Main reason I want him is for Close Combat killing and his special rule is a bonus but not driving reason to pick him. Compare this to a base Archon.
2) Archon; Agoniser, combat drugs, PGL, ShadowField, ghostplate armor
3) Arming the archon with Huskblade and soul trap instead of agoniser?

Thoughts?

[somerandomdude]

I prefer Huskblade/Soultrap if using Combat Drugs. Assuming you are running him in a group, half of the rolls are useless for an Agoniser Archon (+1 WS, +1 S, and 3d6 Run). A Huskblade Archon can make excellent use of the +1 S, and could potentially take out a few sqauds after one soul, which means he can seperate and use his 3d6 run (this is unlikely however). An Agoniser Archon is a much cheaper choice, so if that's what you need then go for it.

It also depends on who you're putting him with. Wyches would be assaulting tough groups to tie them up, while Incubi would be looking to wipe groups out. Would you really like to pay extra points for a character that will be in tie-up mode?

As for Vect, I agree he is expensive, but hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's vs. everything (almost) is huge. Be careful where you put him because of the lack of Eternal Warrior, but as far as 200+ point characters go he may be one of the better ones. However, I think his best use is in an alpha-strike list with the Baron (cheaper than most good Archon builds and providing much more IMO). You still get all of the combat power from Vect, and you have a better chance of pulling off the first turn.

Have you tried any Haemonculi? Starting groups off with pain tokens is fantastic. I plan on having one with a 20 man warrior sqaud in the back, another starting with the Archon/Incubi, and a third deploying with whoever I need to have a boost.

[DrBored]

Why are you giving your Archon the Phantasm Grenade Launcher? It's far too expensive for what it does, and he already has Plasma Grenades. You could give a Raider Flickerfields, Night Shields, and Grisly Trophies for the same price of giving your Archon defensive grenades. If your Archon and his unit are being assaulted, let's just say you're doing it wrong.

[Caldera02]

Because the Archon goes with the Incubi... :)

[Archon Charybdis]

1) Vect; is he worth the points? His wargear and special rules. Main reason I want him is for Close Combat killing and his special rule is a bonus but not driving reason to pick him. Compare this to a base Archon.

Unfortunately I haven't had much chance to try him out yet, but I do think Vect is fairly worthwhile. Though expensive, I'd say his ability to seize the initiative on 4+ is pretty huge, and he's quite the effective killer as long as you don't let him get exposed to volume of fire/attacks. Don't throw him in with TH/SS termies or a horde of boyz and expect him to do much, but pretty much anything else he'll mince.


2) Archon; Agoniser, combat drugs, PGL, ShadowField, ghostplate armor

-I often find myself inclined to take the ol' reliable Agonizer as well; it's cheap and doesn't rely on having a pain token or a lucky 5+ to wound in order to do some damage. Quite excellent if you're lucky enough to get re-roll t wound for your drugs.

-Take the PGL only if he's going with Incubi, but consider that with Incubi isnt necessarily the best place for him these days. Incubi and the Archon are both plenty killy on their own, and when put together make an irresistable target in a AV10 open-topped can. If you split them up they'll both still be very effective, but less of a giant juicy target.

- Combat drugs are worth considering if you're running this guy with the Duke, as it gives you a better chance to get something useful, but otherwise you might save the points and skip it. Half of the options aren't much help to your Agonizer Archon anyway.


3) Arming the archon with Huskblade and soul trap instead of agoniser?

I'm personally not sold on it. Wounding with S3 makes it all the harder to actually bag an IC or MC and until you do, good luck wounding those multi-wound models that ID is helpful with (TWC, Biker Nobz, Tyranid Warriors). Yes, you can make it work, but I'm just not sure it's worth the extra points and loss of utility compared to the agonizer.

[davel]

Looking at the arcane wargear it strikes me that the heamolici shatter shard is probably the best anti hammer unit piece of war gear. assult termies, fortuned seer councils, and nob bikers are all vunerable to this. Yes you have to get him up close, but there may be and fun and games in opponent trying to avoid him through the power of paranoia.

I doubt that DE could field a true hammer unit as survivability, will always be an issue though they are good for killyness.

the crucible of mal is worth a look as psykers are on the rise. It offers protection through offense ( very DE) combine with veicle grenade launchers for extra nasty.

dave l

[Archon Charybdis]

Looking at the arcane wargear it strikes me that the heamolici shatter shard is probably the best anti hammer unit piece of war gear. assult termies, fortuned seer councils, and nob bikers are all vunerable to this. Yes you have to get him up close, but there may be and fun and games in opponent trying to avoid him through the power of paranoia. l


Yeah, that's my thought as well. I generally plan on running a Haemy with my squad of Incubi in order to give them FNP off the bat, and have the shattershard for units with good invuln saves.

[Xas]

With recent tests I've found the best HQ to be cheap haemoncoli ranging around 50-75 a piece.
You dont expect much more of them than to give their pain token to a worthwhile unit and if they indeed do something good you are suprised positively.

All the other HQs I've found to be not really worth their points compared to other units of similar points value (especially incubi and trueborn/bloodbrides) in terms of killyness and even survivability (you are sooner rolling the 1 than you want).

therefore my most valued builds are the following 3:

haemoncoli with liquifier gun and 2+ poison melee (and maybe webway)
-> usually with incubi or trueborn

archon with blaster (and djinblade from spare points, maybe webway)
-> usually with trueborn /w 4blasters and venom

archon with blast pistol, huskblade, shadowfield, drugs, PGL and soultap (imo the huskblade/soultap combo is the ONLY combination of wargear that makes the archon worthwhile compared to a unit of incubi or bloodbrides as it lets him do something those squads cannot do)
-> usually with incubi (PGL makes him allmost worthwhile for synergy)

[w7west]

I am going to have to rule Duke Sliscus as taking the top spot of the available HQ choices. Depending on what units you use, the Duke can have boost everything in your army. Here's a look at the squads I use in my 1850 list and examples of how powerful Duke is to the army:

-2 x 10 wyche in raider: This is a no brainer. Picking the combat drug you would like out of two dice rolls gives you a significant chance of not having to settle with one of the crappy ones (3d6 run lol), and the chances of starting out with a pain token are now 1/3.

20 warrior with 2 cannons: Such a deadly unit with Duke deploying for the 3+ poison. Humble warriors don't cause opponents to sweat nearly as much as they should as this squad will tear a hole through any unit on foot. 44 poison shots wounding on 3+ on the move at 12" range is a beautiful thing. Duke also gives this squad the ability to not get wiped out so easily by assaults. Also, thanks to combat drugs the squad has a 1/3 chance of starting with that pain token :)

2x trueborn with blasters in venoms: Duke lets you deep strike these guys. Unlike the jets, you are able to disembark the same turn they deep strike, meaning rear armor is not safe. Lances have a hard time actually wrecking vehicles when shooting head on, while having 4 blasters on rear armor can certainly do the trick and take out crucial vehicles. I prefer venoms due to their smaller size for ease of deep striking, and also to wipe out small squads.

Archon with incubi in raider: Again, 1/3 chance of starting with pain token, and makes the agonizer archon much more useful when you have a good chance of getting a drug that will help him. Deepstriking this squad can be risky, but the rewards can be great as you will be eating your opponent from the back.

Ravagers: Deepstriking lances into rear armor is always a great option to have. Although I run my ravagers with nightshields and flickerfields so generally it is safer for me to just deploy out of range.


Long post but, if you want the short version the duke is incredibly powerful for his points. If he was priced at 275 I would still see him as a bargain.

[gcsmith]

why would u need to Disembark the guys in venoms. to fire the blasters i mean.

[BuFFo]

why would u need to Disembark the guys in venoms. to fire the blasters i mean.

Because he used Deep Strike the same turn.

[Caldera02]

Because deepstriking counts as cruising speed. Therefore you can't fire from the vehicle

[isotope99]

Sounds like they didn't write the fast vehicle rules carefully enough to me. Seems a bit ridiculous that you can jump out and fire but not stay in and fire in the same situation.

Not saying you're wrong, just another quirk to be adjusted for next edition IMHO.

[somerandomdude]

The explanation that is generally used by people (and easily accepted by those of us who play multiple "snapshot" games like 40k and D&D) is that, any one turn isn't a stop-and-go in the real battle. A vehicle that is moving at combat speed is believed to be doing that over a significant time, which is why you have time to fire from inside the vehicle. Vehicles moving at cruising speed are traveling too fast over a period of time. When passengers disembark, however, it is an approximation of them finding an opportune time in the vehicle movement to take advantage of a shot. Fast vehicles just have a better crew/stabilizers for their crew. The passengers are still having to hold on pretty tight to make sure they don't fall off the deck/stumble out of the firing point.

Assuming these games were real (and I always do, that's why I get upset whenever a model is killed) the battle wouldn't follow the pace of move, shoot, assault. It is move and shoot, move and assault, shoot and assault, move fast, etc. This game is an approximation, and it makes most sense in this approximation that cruising speed = no shooting, disembarking = yes shooting.

[DarkLink]

Sounds like they didn't write the fast vehicle rules carefully enough to me.

Wait, GW doesn't write their rules carefully enough!? I never would have guessed:p.

[Caldera02]

So I've played one test game with Vect so far with Darkwynn. So in no way was his performance conclusive. I did like how much of a beating he put out though! The idea is to put him with 9 Bloodbrides and the Archon with the incubi.

Still not sold on the huskblade+soultrap. Anyone had success with that combo?

[Darkwynn]

List I am thinking about for 1850 after Caldera and I were playing back and forth.

1850

Duke
Bloodbrides x9 with Syren/ Agonizer and three hydra gauntlets
Raider
Bloodbrides x9 with Syren/ Agonizer and three hydra gauntlets
Raider

Wyches X 10 with two Shard nets and agonizer
Raider with Flicker Field


Wyches X 10 with two Shard nets and agonizer
Raider with Flicker Field


Wyches X 10 with two Shard nets and agonizer
Raider

6 reavers with two heat lances and Agonizer

6 reavers with two heat lances and Agonizer

Ravenger
Ravenger


To go up to 2000 drop an Archon to ride with the other bloodbrides and put Flicker fields , aether sails on other things.

[konate]

Sounds really effective....

...and really dull. Pardon me, I'm just not a tournament player ;)

[crazy_irish]

Doesn't the Duke has to be placed in an warrior or trueborn squad?

[helvexis]

Only if you want to make use of "the serpents venom" rule to make the poison weapons 3+ :) this is the way I've been using him and also as a slightly helpful counter to assault marines jumping on my back field and trying to romp my foot squad

[Archon Charybdis]

Only if you want to make use of "the serpents venom" rule to make the poison weapons 3+ :)

No, it's not an option: "Pick a unit of Kabalite Warriors or a unit of Kabalite Trueborn at the beginning of the game. Sliscus must be deployed with this unit."

[Cereal n' Milk]

One idea. In the entry for court of the archon, there are lhamaeans or however you spell it. But they give 2+ poison to any poison weapon the archon has, shooting or close combat. Has anyone tried this with vect or malys? And could you combine that with the agoniser, so that you have a power weapon hitting mostly on 3+, wounding on 2+, and hitting before most everything? If that works, hes pretty unstoppable in cc...

[somerandomdude]

An Agoniser is not a poison weapon. Also, Vect only has only one poison weapon, his pistol.

[rle68]

I dont know why everyone thinks wyches are so great.. from the old dex to the new they just arent as worthwhile

here is my list for 1850 with the 2 hq's i think work well together

baron ( helions are troops +1 to die roll to go first)
4 squads of 5 helions or 2 squads of 5 and one squad of 10 ( thats what i am using now)

duke sliscus (combat drug roll and poisoned weapons) i dont plan on deep striking

3 squads of 8 kabalite trueborns
4 blasters 2 shard carbines 2 splinter cannons all assault so lots of poisoned shots
3 raiders shock prow flicker fields splinter racks

3 ravagers 3 dark lances night shields flicker fields