Achilles land raider

[Pendragon38]

from forge world the new Achilles is sweet looking cant wait to have one:cool:

[Defenestratus]

looks interesting. Like the sponsons. The assault ramp is gone to make way for that giant gun ... trying to figure out what it is though... punisher? Some kind of megabolter?

[Pendragon38]

Thunder fire cannon of the SM codex

[Defenestratus]

oh nice!

[Flammenwerfer13]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/LAND-RAIDER-ACHILLES-COMPLETE-KIT.html

The assault ramp is still there it is just modified.

[SotonShades]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

And there are the experimental rules, for anyone interested.

I'm afraid there isnt an assault ramp on this one, just access hatches on either side. On the otherhand, the Achilles is even more survivable, being immune to lance and melta special rules and having a -1 modifier on the vehicle damage chart (apart from Destroyer weapons)

[Pendragon38]

wonder if you can keep the hurricane bolters? fore a fire line against horde army's

[Vaktathi]

This seems like one of FW's rare brainfarts, cool in theory, but doesn't seem fun at all, against many armies it'll be functionally invincible (eldar/DE/orks/SoB/etc) and against many others unreasonably resilient, with only more extreme SM builds, some IG armies, Tau and Tyranids presenting any real threat, and even then much less than that faced by a normal Land Raider.

No assault ramp which is good, but still has a transport capacity and a lot of powerful guns on an unholy resilient platform. Had it just been the -1 to damage results (melta and lance weaponry would still be very useful) *or* immunity to melta/lance (AP1 could still kill on a glance and glancing to death would be easier) that would have been one thing, but both makes it nigh unkillable for many armies, which isn't a good thing.

[pinchy]

Had it just been the -1 to damage results (melta and lance weaponry would still be very useful) *or* immunity to melta/lance (AP1 could still kill on a glance and glancing to death would be easier) that would have been one thing, but both makes it nigh unkillable for many armies, which isn't a good thing.

I have to agree- while it is pretty cool the rules really put it into the apoc only category for me. I also can't see this doing much to encourage people to be more open to the idea of playing against Forgeworld units- whether it actually turns out to be balanced or not at a quick glance it looks like it just wouldn't be much fun to go up against unless you specifically built a list around dealing with it (I mean honestly how many marine lists even have more than one or two weapons that could pen it).

[Vaktathi]

I have to agree- while it is pretty cool the rules really put it into the apoc only category for me. I also can't see this doing much to encourage people to be more open to the idea of playing against Forgeworld units- whether it actually turns out to be balanced or not at a quick glance it looks like it just wouldn't be much fun to go up against unless you specifically built a list around dealing with it (I mean honestly how many marine lists even have more than one or two weapons that could pen it).

Agreed, which is exactly my problem with it, you need to tailor a list to deal with it generally, and it doesn't help get people to play FW stuff, even though 99% of it is just fine.

[SotonShades]

Just remember that these are experimental rules. They are usually subject to change before going to final print. An example would be the Chaplain Dreadnought, which could only originally take a single close combat weapon and had an area effect making it simillar to a normal chaplain joining a squad (allowing units in the radius to re-roll failed to hit rolls). I emailed FW after a few games asking for a second CCW and saying the radius was too powerful. I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have been the only one who did this, but it does show that they put these experimental rules on their website so we can playtest them to a certain degree.

I agree it does seem more than a little over resillient, but it is 50 points more than a regular land raider and now I think the most expensive non super heavy vehicle in the game ( please correct me if I'm wrong) and one of the main strengths of the land raider (big transport capacity/ability to take terminators) has been removed. I'd play a few games with it (or at least using a normal land raider as a proxy) before deciding it was over powered, and even then I'd write to FW again before condeming it completely

[fuzzbuket]

just remember that it dosnt apply to destructor weapons so a tank hunter, squad of warriors or any other FW stuff shouldnt have a problem with it


and models wise if mix it with a pre hersy LR how COOL would it be ? now wherer to spend £108 on a single £35 tank?

i might get one its so cool:D

[Fueldrop]

as eldar, i feel that it's immunity to lance/melta weapons is really a blow. the only things we get that can pen it are fire prisms (mine's wildly inaccurate, don't know why), witchblades (close combat, singing spears have a whole 12 inches of range!) fire dragons with tank-hunters (12 inches again) and wraithguard/wraithlord (12 inches and CC respectively.) i run a brightlance heavy army so i'll have to rebuild my list to be able to hurt it.

still, the model is so cool i'd be heartbroken if it became unplayable. maybe make it resistant to lance and melta (IE lance makes it AV 13 and melta at 1/2 range gets +D3 to penetrate.) and maybe it gets the -1 on the damage table on a roll of 4+ (kind of like a save).

don't fancy facing it with a hoard army.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ahuh as much as i agree it is a mean looking tank, i am not looking forward to ever facing one with my SoB its going to be really hard to kill off.
SoB use melta weapons for tank hunting and the only tank to tank vehicle is the Excorsist at Str 8 AP1, have to roll a 6 to glance (cant penetrate) but atleast with AP1 we gain a +1, so thats still only a 5 on the chart max.
(-1 for glance, -1 for tanks rules but +1 for AP1)

[wittdooley]

Does anyone think it would look even more badass with the MKIIB sponsons on it?

[Gir]

I love it. Finally an anwser to all the ******* Melta-spam going on at the moment.

It's acutally not that difficult to pop if you use other methods. Furioso dreadnoughts will tear it in half, as will any MC. Melta bombs will also make a mess of it (And before people say they won't work, Melta-Bombs don't acutally use the Melta special rules).

I would also like to point out that this is an extract from IA10, and is NOT experimental.

[pinchy]

Melta bombs will also make a mess of it (And before people say they won't work, Melta-Bombs don't acutally use the Melta special rules).

One meltabomb on a sergeant getting one attack on a 4+ or a 6 to hit and with a 60% (approx) chance of a pen isn't really all that reliable (roughly 30% @ combat speed, 10% @ crusing) and then of course you actually need to roll high enough to do any real damage. Still better odds than most weapons but not really making a mess of it. Now in the increasingly rare situations where you can give an entire squad meltabombs (such as demolitions veterans) then yeah you are probably going to at least damage the thing, but one or two melta bombs isn't likely to achieve all that much.

[gwensdad]

I just decided that I want/need one.

The White Scars would have 1 or 2, right?!

And it's cheaper to buy this kit than get a Land Raider + Thunderfire cannon + the multi-meltas. (based on getting them at regular GW prices-YMMV)

Now I just need a way to afford it...

[eldargal]

I'm not usually one to complain about incessant Space Marine releases, but this is, what, the 40th Land Raider variant now?:rolleyes:

[Vaktathi]

I love it. Finally an anwser to all the ******* Melta-spam going on at the moment. And manages to rather effectively answer most other AT as well. At BS3, you need about 72 Lascannon shots to ensure 1 killed result against this thing.



It's acutally not that difficult to pop if you use other methods. Furioso dreadnoughts will tear it in half If the dread can get into contact with it yes. With two TL'd MM's I wouldn't be counting on it.

MC's can't be stunned or taken out with one shot, so they probably stand a much better chance.

Neither of those things however are things that all armies have access to.


Melta bombs will also make a mess of it (And before people say they won't work, Melta-Bombs don't acutally use the Melta special rules).

Melta bombs generally also aren't usually taken en-masse, meaning you more typically have one attack that even if it hits and penetrates, still needs to roll a 6 to destroy it. Assuming you hit on a "4", you'll need about 20 meltabombs to do it in.

[Gir]

If the dread can get into contact with it yes. With two TL'd MM's I wouldn't be counting on it.


If you've got this thing on the table, the Forge World Dreadnought droppod would probably make a show.

[Legoklods]

Did anyone else notice that the Blood Angels is the only chapter who can't have it:rolleyes:
thats all I need in order to love it!

[Xas]

Did anyone else notice that the Blood Angels is the only chapter who can't have it:rolleyes:
thats all I need in order to love it!

I say its purely because you dont want this thing running around with an inbuilt 5+ cover save on top of all that thanks to a sanguinary shield :)

[Bigred]

or deepstriking

[Vaktathi]

If you've got this thing on the table, the Forge World Dreadnought droppod would probably make a show.

Which is also something that really never should have been made, especially not as a measly 15pt upgrade...:p

[Tynskel]

meh, Blood Angels don't want it because you cannot assault out of it.

[Duke]

meh, Blood Angels don't want it because you cannot assault out of it.

What? I thought the only reason BA had Land Raiders is so they could hide Mephiston! You mean to tell me we can transport stuff and assault out!?!?! whoa nelly!

I for one love any kind of variant Land Raider.

Duke

[DrLove42]

Woah. OK

So this can be taken in a standard list. Pretty much any eldar list is going to hurt. A BS4 lance will need 72 shots to get a kill. I know its 300 points and gonna be rare as sin...but still.

Am i the only one who wishes they'd turn their considerable skills to something else, other than Land Raider varients?

[Fueldrop]

So this can be taken in a standard list. Pretty much any eldar list is going to hurt. A BS4 lance will need 72 shots to get a kill. I know its 300 points and gonna be rare as sin...but still.


where did you find a BS 4 brightlance? (Please help)

[DrLove42]

Wraithlord

Raiders, DE Warriors, Ravagers....a lot of the DE heavies really.

Even the Void lance on the Voidraven has to make 36 shots to get the confirmed kill... so if i live long enough it might get a kill....every 6 games or so?

[scadugenga]

To quote Mellissia, this seems indictative of FW's general predilection for "marinewank."

It's functionally as invulnerable as a monolith, but with better damage output potential, for only 50pts more than the trad version.

Caestus Ram is just as bad.

[Tynskel]

For some reason, I remember the Eldar having cool weapons that will destroy this thing in one go... what could it be... oh yeah, D-Cannons and Wraithcannons.

Then they have Monsterous Creatures. And they have Witchblades.

The Dark Eldar have Void weapons, and 80 point Monsterous Creatures! Not to mention the Str 10 weapons. Haywire Blasters too.

[Gir]

For some reason, I remember the Eldar having cool weapons that will destroy this thing in one go... what could it be... oh yeah, D-Cannons and Wraithcannons.

Then they have Monsterous Creatures. And they have Witchblades.

The Dark Eldar have Void weapons, and 80 point Monsterous Creatures! Not to mention the Str 10 weapons. Haywire Blasters too.

+1

Everyones problem with this thing seems to be "OUR MELTAS ARE USELESS! WHAT DO WE DO WHAT DO WE DO?"

[SotonShades]

Not to mention the Imperial Guard having the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Put a lascannon on that and you'll be putting the Achilles out of action before it even gets in to range. There are plenty of tools out there that will get the job done.

[scadugenga]

For some reason, I remember the Eldar having cool weapons that will destroy this thing in one go... what could it be... oh yeah, D-Cannons and Wraithcannons.

Then they have Monsterous Creatures. And they have Witchblades.

The Dark Eldar have Void weapons, and 80 point Monsterous Creatures! Not to mention the Str 10 weapons. Haywire Blasters too.


D-cannon: 24" range. It dies before it has a 1 in 12 chance of penetrating. (Bs3 pen on 6-)

Wraithcannon: 12" range. See above, only w bs 4

Brightlance/pulse laser: no pen option.

Only standard weapon w/a chance is the fireprism.

Any MC sshould be looong dead before the reach cc.

Witchblades: only pen on 6. Die well before cc range.

This screws eldar horribly. Imagine the crying you'd see w/a ARM 14 wave serpent and you could see a comparison.

[Pendragon38]

I have my LGS ordering one for me as soon as its released on forge world! can't wait nothing like having an extra Thunder Fire Cannon in my Army with Av14........just sit there and shoot at stuff Thudd..thudd..thudd..thudd followed by bright explosion YAH

[Gir]

D-cannon: 24" range. It dies before it has a 1 in 12 chance of penetrating. (Bs3 pen on 6-)

Wraithcannon: 12" range. See above, only w bs 4

Brightlance/pulse laser: no pen option.

Only standard weapon w/a chance is the fireprism.

Any MC sshould be looong dead before the reach cc.

Witchblades: only pen on 6. Die well before cc range.

This screws eldar horribly. Imagine the crying you'd see w/a ARM 14 wave serpent and you could see a comparison.

If you're complaining about the d-cannon and wraithcannon, then you can't complain about it ignoring melta, as they need to be within 6"

Maybe you need to stop complaining and come up with some better tactics. Even if you'll normally only ever face this thing in Apoc.

[Vaktathi]

Not to mention the Imperial Guard having the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Put a lascannon on that and you'll be putting the Achilles out of action before it even gets in to range.
Hrm, probably not. On average (not counting Smoke) between a Vanquisher Cannon and a Lascannon, it'll take that 170pt tank 16 rounds of fire to get a single "Vehicle Wrecked" result between both of its AT guns. If the Achilles can get within 12" of the Vanquisher (between smoke and a turn or two of movement, probably very likely) it stands a little better than a 1/4 chance of destroying it with one MM, a little over 50% with both MM's.


There are plenty of tools out there that will get the job done.
The problem isn't that there's stuff that won't kill it, it's that it's too restricted and generally still will have an unreasonably hard time taking this thing down.

[SotonShades]

Hrm, probably not. On average (not counting Smoke) between a Vanquisher Cannon and a Lascannon, it'll take that 170pt tank 16 rounds of fire to get a single "Vehicle Wrecked" result between both of its AT guns. If the Achilles can get within 12" of the Vanquisher (between smoke and a turn or two of movement, probably very likely) it stands a little better than a 1/4 chance of destroying it with one MM, a little over 50% with both MM's.


The problem isn't that there's stuff that won't kill it, it's that it's too restricted and generally still will have an unreasonably hard time taking this thing down.

During those 16 rounds of fire, what are the odds of stunning or shaking the achilles? or immobilising it? and taking off all it's weapons? and at 170 points, we also get (more or less) another Vanq against the Achilles. So assumming the Achilles will start at best 24" from one of the Vanqs (and I'm not going to start them close together), it should take it at least 8 turns to get close enough to the second Vanq to do any damage, during which time it is going to have to plough through my lines, where all my other melta guns and rockets are sitting. Sure they are only going to glance, but that is enough to keep the Achilles permenantly out of range of my Vanq.

Am I the only one who has worked out that you don't need to kill a tank to take it out of action? How do the odds improve/how many rounds of shooting with lascannon, wraithcannon etc do we need to garauntee at least immobilising it, preferably out of range of it's meltas, but i'd be willing to ignore it once i've taken the thunderfire off and immobilised it pretty much. Wont be holding an objective (maybe contest) and its only going to be one kill point compared to wasting my time killing the rest of the army.

[Pendragon38]

I've know of a sure way to take out the landraider!!!!.Heh Heh they are know as Flyers you all look at it as hard target to kill I see it as a slow tank that is easy to take out with missiles and if that dont work there is the Kamikaze run that should work fine

[Vaktathi]

During those 16 rounds of fire, what are the odds of stunning or shaking the achilles? Stunning? None, the Achilles comes with Extra Armor. Shaking? Pretty decent, about 1/3 , but it still has PotMS to fire either a very capable TL'd BS4 Tank killing gun or a 4 shot multi-role blast weapon.


or immobilising it? Exactly the same as killing it.


and taking off all it's weapons? Not great, you would likely get an outright kill before burning through 3 guns.


So assumming the Achilles will start at best 24" from one of the Vanqs (and I'm not going to start them close together), it should take it at least 8 turns to get close enough to the second Vanq to do any damage, during which time it is going to have to plough through my lines, where all my other melta guns and rockets are sitting. Sure they are only going to glance, but that is enough to keep the Achilles permenantly out of range of my Vanq Probably not as you can't stun it and shaken results are greatly mitigated (Extra Armor & PotMS) and glances can't immobilize it, and it can still fire a TL'd MM after moving 12".



Am I the only one who has worked out that you don't need to kill a tank to take it out of action? No, it's just that in this case, between Extra Armor, AV14, PotMS, Immunity to Melta, Immunity to Lance, and -1 to all damage results, it is incredibly hard to get it to stop doing something.


How do the odds improve/how many rounds of shooting with lascannon With a BS3 lascannon, you'll need about 72 shots to ensure a kill.


wraithcannon At BS4, 27 shots to kill.


Wont be holding an objective (maybe contest) and its only going to be one kill point compared to wasting my time killing the rest of the army.Ah, but here's the rub, you can stick a scoring unit in it. This means that in Capture and Control you can assure that against most opponents they will likely be playing for a draw after you plop this with a scoring unit on your objective, and put some intense stress on in a Seize Ground game. In an annihilation game, you can safeguard up to *3* KP's (achilles, 5man unit, attached IC) with the Achilles for most games.

[Gir]

Not great, you would likely get an outright kill before burning through 3 guns.


I've seen Necrons glance land raiders to death with gauss weapons multiple times. It's not impossible

But I love the Ironclad dreadnought. A stock one in a dreadnought drop pod will deal pretty much a single destroyed result in one round of combat, assuming the tank didn't move. Give it a chainfist instead and the tanks pretty much screwed.

Terminators with chainfist would mess it up too.

[Fueldrop]

Hang on, i've got a better idea! let's all go space marines with everything in achilles land raiders! that way we don't have to worry about those scary twin-linked multi-meltas, because we're all immune. we can all sit around happily contesting objectives from each over.

seriously, some of the only ways i can see to kill this thing at range (ie: more than 12 inches) are:
1) mass lascannons. (imperial forces.)
2) vindicator (?) (good oomph, but short range. you only get one shot, then you're toasted.) (SM)
3) Guard artillery (don't have the codex, but i think the basilisk pens on a 6)
4) Railguns (tau empire) (most elegant solution so far.)
5)orbital lance strike (GK) (got the strength, but let's be honest it's not going to hit.)
6) soul grinder (CD)
7)prism cannon (Eldar)
8)Voidlance and related (DE)
9)shock attack/zzap gun (orks) (even less reliable than most of the others)
10) anything necron, in bulk. (glance the bugger to death. but pack lunch, it's not going anywhere fast.)
(don't have latest nid codex, so not much help there.)
now here's the catches. one big one is for xenos (other than tau). good odds that your gun is only str 9, min chance of AP 1. tau avoid both these problems and can get railguns at high cost efficiency (BS 4, twin linked, or BS 4 and twin-linked)
everyone else who wants ST 10 should go imperial. so onto the more common strength 9. you glance on a 5, pen on a 6. even your penning hit probably won't do that much (the odds say 1 in 6 will wreck, but we all know that if you only have one chance to kill something before it rampages through your lines, you will roll a 1. we clocked one of my friends today and worked out that he was rolling 50% 1's. that isn't exaggerating, some days you really shouldn't get out of bed.)
so the solution: massed firepower. catch: everything you pour into the achilles is not being used on the rest of the enemy.
one thing that the imperium/ chaos marines have that no-one else gets and is useful is ordnance. roll twice and take the highest is phenomenally valuable if you've only got one shot at this thing.
no practical solution yet (other than for tau, of cause! finally, an old codex for the win!)

the army i really wouldn't want to see this against is orks. they can't do anything against it outside of close combat (true of most things for orks, but even more so here). to add insult to injury, this thing eats hoards for breakfast (4 templates a turn. wounds on 2s, wounds on 3s no cover, or wounds on 4s and stay where you are.) not really ideal.

[Porty1119]

To kill it? Simple. Medusa battery, bastion-breaker shells. Str.10 AP2 R24" Ordnance 1 Blast

[SotonShades]

Lets see, for 300 points, we could also go with a small tooled up unit of Nob Bikers for orks. Sure, they have no answer at range, but at the speed they are capable of, with the 3++ save, multiple wounds (helpful against the thunderfire if not the meltas) and number of Powerklaw attacks they can put out on the charge, you should almost certainly immobilise it on turn two or the second round of combat and take out the thunderfire in the process/soon after. No longer a threat to the orks. Place the bikers infront of or behing the tank and the meltas wont be able touch them either... sure the rest of the marine army will, but that's what the rest of the ork army is for.

Fill out the Nob Bikers unit, maybe add a pain boy and another couple of power klaws, and the survival rate of the Achilles drops even further. And of course, if the Achilles is concentrating on the Nobs, any Zzapguns or Shokk Attack Guns can spare a pot shot at it. Might even give enough time for a Tankbustas mob to get up close and personnal with their Tank Busta Bombs and Tank Hammers.

I'm not saying the Achilles isn't a threat, just that you need to think of it in terms of any other hammer unit. Wasn't that long ago that people were saying Nob Biker units were near invulnerable.

[Pendragon38]

To kill it? Simple. Medusa battery, bastion-breaker shells. Str.10 AP2 R24" Ordnance 1 Blast

the( R24>R60) you get 1 shot and it gets 4 shots per round with the chance that your dice roll don't scatter:eek:

[scadugenga]

If you're complaining about the d-cannon and wraithcannon, then you can't complain about it ignoring melta, as they need to be within 6"

Maybe you need to stop complaining and come up with some better tactics. Even if you'll normally only ever face this thing in Apoc.

Maybe you need to go back under your bridge. Or exercise your brain rather than running about posting +1's like a gleeful rhesus.

You can't glance it to death easily: -3 (-2 for glance & -1 for rule) means that weapon destroyed is only available on a 6. You'd have to destroy all weapons then roll w-d twice more to kill it. So, adding in a h-k and storm bolter means seven glancing hits that roll a 6. As already mentioned, you can't stun it, and it can always shoot once, even moving 12" due to potms.

I'd for once like f to pull this kinda op crap for a xenos race.

[Melissia]

I would not play against this without house rules. I would have to build my Sisters list specifically around fighting it if it were to show up, especially if multiple ones were to show up. The only thing that my Sisters have that can possibly have a non-zero chance at putting a dent in this is eviscerator spam, and the only way to actually get that into close combat with these douchey little tin cans is by popping smoke and charging forward with a transport carrying a retinue with a priest (Which would have three eviscerators). Repentia have to slog it so they're screwed by its main weapon, and you only get one squad of them anyway and they're far too overpriced.

I haven't seen FW pull anything this ridiculous.

[w7west]

Uh oh here comes my wyche squad with haywire grenades! They only manage to blow off a weapon or shake it?

Oh no here comes my scourges with haywire blasters, cool scenery bro! wait you spent how many points on that???

[Defenestratus]

I would not play against this without house rules. I would have to build my Sisters list specifically around fighting it if it were to show up, especially if multiple ones were to show up. The only thing that my Sisters have that can possibly have a non-zero chance at putting a dent in this is eviscerator spam, and the only way to actually get that into close combat with these douchey little tin cans is by popping smoke and charging forward with a transport carrying a retinue with a priest (Which would have three eviscerators). Repentia have to slog it so they're screwed by its main weapon, and you only get one squad of them anyway and they're far too overpriced.

I haven't seen FW pull anything this ridiculous.

Wow, is the rest of the hobby all sunshine and rainbows for you?

Or is it just the "need special permission to use in a normal game" models that make you such a cheerful person?

[Vaktathi]

Lets see, for 300 points, we could also go with a small tooled up unit of Nob Bikers for orks. Sure, they have no answer at range, but at the speed they are capable of, with the 3++ save, multiple wounds (helpful against the thunderfire if not the meltas) and number of Powerklaw attacks they can put out on the charge, you should almost certainly immobilise it on turn two or the second round of combat and take out the thunderfire in the process/soon after. No longer a threat to the orks. Place the bikers infront of or behing the tank and the meltas wont be able touch them either... sure the rest of the marine army will, but that's what the rest of the ork army is for. 300pts gets you 4 Nob Bikers on bikes with powerklaws. These are hideously vulnerable to S8+ weaponry, and a turn 2 charge against an achilles is likely to be hitting only on 6's, meaning they've got about a 1/14 chance to kill it, 1/7 to kill or immobilize. If they hit it on 4's they have less than a 50/50 chance to immobilize/destroy. This means that most likely the it's going to survive and be operational, and allow other units to deal with the bikers.



Fill out the Nob Bikers unit, maybe add a pain boy and another couple of power klaws, and the survival rate of the Achilles drops even further. Right, but at that point the unit starts costing a lot more than the achilles, a fully kitted unit is going to be 2-2.5x the cost of an achilles.


And of course, if the Achilles is concentrating on the Nobs any Zzapguns or Shokk Attack Guns can spare a pot shot at it Neither of which are exactly commonly taken in most lists or exactly hugely reliable against AV14 in the first place, much less one with a -1 damage chart bonus.


Might even give enough time for a Tankbustas mob to get up close and personnal with their Tank Busta Bombs and Tank Hammers.Perhaps true, but also aren't typically a hugely popular all comers choice either.



I'm not saying the Achilles isn't a threat, just that you need to think of it in terms of any other hammer unit. Wasn't that long ago that people were saying Nob Biker units were near invulnerable.Nob Bikers aren't invulnerable, but they are unreasonably hard to kill for many armies. Anything with lots of ordnance and high S shots will destroy them, but anything relying on weight of fire for destroying enemies is going to have a ridiculous time with them. That said, yes, there are ways to kill the Achilles, but generally require a lot more effort than really should be warranted for something like this, and it's just too hard to stop it from doing something if it really wants to.




I've seen Necrons glance land raiders to death with gauss weapons multiple times. It's not impossible
I didn't say it was, only that it was highly unlikely.



But I love the Ironclad dreadnought. A stock one in a dreadnought drop pod will deal pretty much a single destroyed result in one round of combat, assuming the tank didn't move. Give it a chainfist instead and the tanks pretty much screwed.
A chainfist replaces the seismic hammer, which removes it's AP1 equivalent ability, resulting in even worse damage output. An Ironclad even with its full 4 attacks hitting automatically is only inflicting about 0.44 destroyed results(probably the most effective thing yet though admittedly) , meaning there is a more than likely chance it will survive and have an opportunity to move away and/or MM the dread. That's why this thing is so silly.



Terminators with chainfist would mess it up too.Yes, true, but like many other things, a rather esoteric loadout with few applications over normal powerfists other than Land Raiders in general.

[fuzzbuket]

why is everyone going "AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

its just a monaloth with 4 multimeltas and a big cannon?

[Vaktathi]

why is everyone going "AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

its just a monaloth with 4 multimeltas and a big cannon?

Because it's even harder to kill, has a transport capacity, and is available to far more capable armies that can take lots of vehicle units to stress AT that Necrons can't.

[fuzzbuket]

Because it's even harder to kill, has a transport capacity, and is available to far more capable armies that can take lots of vehicle units to stress AT that Necrons can't.

monoliths have transport capacity? and can warp around units
monoliths are AV14 no melta/lance
and stress AT finde me someone with 3 of these and a million T6/8 units :P

[Vaktathi]

monoliths have transport capacity? No they don't. They can teleport units to them or have reserves come out of them, but cannot safeguard them within its hull, that's a huge difference.



monoliths are AV14 no melta/lance But don't have that -1 on the damage chart which is *huge*, and don't have the same reach of firepower or AT capability.



and stress AT finde me someone with 3 of these and a million T6/8 units :PYou could pack in 3 Achilles and still have points left over for speeders, troops in rhinos, dreads, drop pods, etc. making AT very difficult for you opponent.

[Fueldrop]

finde me someone with 3 of these and a million T6/8 units :P

a friend of mine with cheese marines (imp fists). he's got some on order to complement his space-bike army (ok ok i know it's only toughness 5, but it's the same principle.)

out of curiosity, has anyone managed to one-shot an achilles yet?

[DarkLink]

Because it's even harder to kill

It's also significantly more expensive.



and is available to far more capable armies that can take lots of vehicle units to stress AT that Necrons can't.

Yet I doubt it's as bad as IG mech spam, where you have to go through a dozen or so Chimeras to get to anything valuable:rolleyes:.


No they don't. They can teleport units to them or have reserves come out of them, but cannot safeguard them within its hull, that's a huge difference.


Not that huge a difference, considering the Achilles can only carry 6 models (or 3 Terminators) and the Monolith can let you re-roll WBB.

In fact, I'd rather be able to teleport a unit away and reroll WBB than carry a measly 6 models. About the only thing that the Achilles can transport that has that big of a threat are command squads, so you don't have to worry about them spitting out THSS Terminators or something.

[scadugenga]

Uh oh here comes my wyche squad with haywire grenades! They only manage to blow off a weapon or shake it?

Oh no here comes my scourges with haywire blasters, cool scenery bro! wait you spent how many points on that???


Oh, here comes wyches needing a 6 to hit with their one haywire grenade attack each. (if the marine player knows he's going to catch the assault-he'll move 12" and only fire one weapon due to potms.) haywire grenades only pen on a 6. So each wyche gets a 1/36 chance to pen the achilles, and only a 1/3 chance to destroy it with each pen hit. So, each wyche has a 1/108 chance to destroy it. Those are fantastic odds. What was I thinking?

And that's assuming you even have any wyches to get there when that lovely t-fire cannon gets done with them.

A glancing hit, as mentioned before, cannot destroy, or even immobilize the achilles.

Haywire blasters? Please. You only get 4 of them for a full squad of scourges, and they have the same odds of pen/destroying as haywire grenades.

The Achilles would be a perfectly viable choice if they either left it at 1) -1 to damage charts, or 2) ignores lance/melta rules. Adding the two together is ridiculous overkill.


Edit for DarkLink's post:


About the only thing that the Achilles can transport that has that big of a threat are command squads, so you don't have to worry about them spitting out THSS Terminators or something.

I thought about that too--but you could also have it carrying sternguard for nasty counter shooting, or, better yet, a techmarine & servitor squad that will essentially make it immune to death, as they constantly repair those pesky weapon destroyed results.)

[Vaktathi]

It's also significantly more expensive. about 13% more after factoring in the Extra Armor. Not *that* much more.




Yet I doubt it's as bad as IG mech spam, where you have to go through a dozen or so Chimeras to get to anything valuable:rolleyes:. Or you kill one chimera to get at an infantry unit? Who says you need to kill a dozen to get at anything?




Not that huge a difference, considering the Achilles can only carry 6 models (or 3 Terminators) and the Monolith can let you re-roll WBB. The achilles can carry two units in practical invulnerability meaning you'd never have to bother with losing them in the first place.



In fact, I'd rather be able to teleport a unit away and reroll WBB than carry a measly 6 models. About the only thing that the Achilles can transport that has that big of a threat are command squads, so you don't have to worry about them spitting out THSS Terminators or something.It doesn't *need* to carry a CC unit of doom to be valuable. As I already pointed out, stick a scoring unit in it and your opponent is probably going to have to play for a draw in Capture and Control or 3 point Seize Ground matches. You can also safeguard 3 KP's from an opponents attacks with this thing, denying them the ability to destroy a noticeable number of KP's.

[Loken]

Oh who the frak cares about what is better or such. It is a COOL model and I just ordered 3 while visiting Warhammer World.

I mean it is mean as hell and will look cool. That is all I care about. Our Apoc games are about fun and playing with toys.

I leave mathhammer to you guys. I want stuff to blow up....elegantly.


Alec

[SotonShades]

Just a quick question; Who is spending 300 points for a single gun per turn? As far as I can tell, everyone wants their Achilles to be moving around constantly so they can use a single twinlinked multimelta to kill maybe one tank a turn. Or a cluster of 3" templates against troops.

I don't know whether this is just the math-hammerers out there, but most of the time my tanks are able to fire more than a single weapon, except on rare occasion. With my SM, I think I'd be tempted to slow down a lot of the time to make use of the formidable array of weapons. If people are planning on using the Achilles, I imagine (especially once they get close enough to use the multimeltas on multiple vehicles they'll be travelling at combat speed. Point to strike? I reckon so, tripling the odds of doing some damage.

I will freely admit I haven't had a game with or against this unbreakable leviathen yet, but I have a few lined up this week as practice I'm attending this weekend. I'd quite like to see how the fairly balanced tournament army faces up against this thing and I will be tell you how I get on (possibly a separate thread) especially if I do manage to one shot it, though I think that's unlikely lol.

Also I agree with Loken; cool model, want one regardless of rules

[Fueldrop]

is it just me, or is melta becoming far less useful? back in the day you could pop anything other than a monolith or wave serpent. now days you have all sorts of new stuff that ignores it (stormraven, achilles, caestus). i think melta is no longer the 'in thing'.
not a major problem yet, but games workshop has occasionally overdone new concepts (i know, shocking isnt it)

[w7west]

Oh, here comes wyches needing a 6 to hit with their one haywire grenade attack each. (if the marine player knows he's going to catch the assault-he'll move 12" and only fire one weapon due to potms.) haywire grenades only pen on a 6. So each wyche gets a 1/36 chance to pen the achilles, and only a 1/3 chance to destroy it with each pen hit. So, each wyche has a 1/108 chance to destroy it. Those are fantastic odds. What was I thinking?

*all I need is one glance to blow off the cannon. Go ahead and move 12" my threat has already decreased firepower greatly.

And that's assuming you even have any wyches to get there when that lovely t-fire cannon gets done with them.

A glancing hit, as mentioned before, cannot destroy, or even immobilize the achilles.

Haywire blasters? Please. You only get 4 of them for a full squad of scourges, and they have the same odds of pen/destroying as haywire grenades.

*Four haywire blasters will have no problem keeping this thing stunned and stripping off the weapons. Who needs to destroy a 300 point piece of terrain?

Of course, bringing apoc units into a game the achilles will largely be ignored or stepped on by a titan.

[Fueldrop]

*Four haywire blasters will have no problem keeping this thing stunned and stripping off the weapons. Who needs to destroy a 300 point piece of terrain?

for the sake of this, i'm going to assume that your scourges have got into range unmolested. four shots, call it three hits. three glancing hits. on a 1-5 you're going to have it shaken, and a 6 will kill a weapon.

with machine spirit, you still get to shoot one gun. so move 12 inches (you're only shaken) away from the scourges and put 4 tremor templates on them. if the survivors follow you to get back into range, dangerous terrain. if the scourges deepstrike to get to you unmolested then they're nicely bunched for your templates. if they just flew over from deployment then they're going to be close on max range (assuming you deploy as far back as possible. not unlikely against dark eldar, at least with your long-range stuff.)
i'm not trying to say it won't work, but it's hardly sure-fire.

[Vaktathi]

*all I need is one glance to blow off the cannon. Go ahead and move 12" my threat has already decreased firepower greatly.
Um...you've got a 1/6 chance to blow off a weapon on a glance. Hitting on 6's, with 10 Haywire grenades, that gives you a less than 1/4 chance total to inflict a weapon destroyed result. It's got 3 weapons, and can get more. Not exactly a solid plan.




*Four haywire blasters will have no problem keeping this thing stunned and stripping off the weapons. Four Haywire Blasters at BS4 will only inflict about 0.37 Weapon Destroyed results (assuming no smoke). Not exactly great odds. It *cannot* be stunned, and has PotMS for when it is shaken to keep firing it's TL'd guns or blast weapon.


Who needs to destroy a 300 point piece of terrain? Because it's capable of holding scoring units to sit on objectives or contest that you can do little about, and can deny you up to 3 KP's in annihilation games?

[Fueldrop]

we've established that it's powerful. so, rather than nerf it's uber abilities, let me ask this:

What is a fair points cost for an Achilles? three hundred is seeming a bit cheap, as it's going to hang around until the end of the game (most of the time, anyway. this thing is a fire magnet, and it can take a beating and come back for more.) so how much should it cost in a normal non-Apocalypse game?

ps. if you want a real monster, stick chronus in one of these bad-boys. BS 5 twin linked multi-meltas: anything with an armor value is gone at 12 inches.

[Archon Charybdis]

Just a quick question; Who is spending 300 points for a single gun per turn? As far as I can tell, everyone wants their Achilles to be moving around constantly so they can use a single twinlinked multimelta to kill maybe one tank a turn. Or a cluster of 3" templates against troops.

It doesn't really sound like that to me. Most people seem to be talking about it in terms of an unkillable bunker sitting near an objective. Maybe moving combat speed each round for protection from assault, but generally sitting in place and relying on the long range firepower of the TFC to clear infantry. I think the multi-meltas are just a bonus if something gets close.


so, rather than nerf it's uber abilities, let me ask this:

What is a fair points cost for an Achilles?

Actually, I think toning down its abilities somewhat (and maybe even with a bit of a points drop) would be the correct way to go about it. The problem isn't that its' unkillable, it's that it's unkillable for certain types of armies and only an above-average nuisance for others. It's a rule that's game-breaking in a lot of situations, but not necessarily enough to merit really cranking it's point cost up, lest it be rendered completely useless.

[Fueldrop]

It doesn't really sound like that to me. Most people seem to be talking about it in terms of an unkillable bunker sitting near an objective. Maybe moving combat speed each round for protection from assault, but generally sitting in place and relying on the long range firepower of the TFC to clear infantry. I think the multi-meltas are just a bonus if something gets close.

great point. this thing is harder to kill than a bastion! it's so tough that it ignores stuff that can level a building, and it can move to where you need it. add a tech-priest and a five-man tactical squad and you have an all-in-one objective-taking vehicle-killing artillery piece that can't be stunned and is nightmarish to kill.

at least it doesn't have fire-points.

as to haywire assaults, i think i've finally found a reason to take swooping hawks with interceptors.

[Vaktathi]

The problem with this is that the Ferromantic Invulnerability rule is exceedingly difficult to cost correctly for. It's survival capability plus PotMS basically make it a light superheavy. It's going to be harder to kill than something like a Macharius superheavy, even without structure points. I'd put it at around 350pts. It's effectively on average at least twice as hard to kill or harder against anything that isn't S10 AP1 (in which case it's only 50-60% harder to kill) or Str D weapons compared with a normal Land Raider, and is much more assured to not only stick around but go where it pleases, especially with included Extra Armor.


Personally I'd rather just see it with only one of the abilities or the other (immunity to melta/lace *OR* -1 on damage charts) as that alone would still be worth its current cost.

[Gir]

I think it's priced correctly for Apoc, but not for regualr games. But as with almost all Forge World units, they're aimed at apoc.

[Fueldrop]

maybe two points costs is the answer? or 2 sets of rules?

[Tynskel]

bah, I still think it is overpriced for what you are getting: a realllly slow tank that is short ranged at killing things that are expensive.

[Vaktathi]

bah, I still think it is overpriced for what you are getting: a realllly slow tank that is short ranged at killing things that are expensive.

How is it slow? It's as fast as any other non-Fast tank, but it can move its full movement alotment and still fire either a TL'd Multimelta or a Thunderfire cannon as normal. Addtionally, it's TFC has a 60" range.

What is slow or short ranged about it besides the MM's?

Land Raiders aren't about pure killing power, they are about staying power above all, and transportation. This has great firepower, still can transport stuff, and has ridiculous staying power.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, but it can't transport any of the SM's big deadly units. Best you can fit in there is a command squad, and while they can be fairly dangerous they're also very fragile and expensive compared to the more deadly units.

The only real problem with it, as Melissia mentioned, is that some armies really can't kill it very well. They need to remove the -1 damage rule, or some similar little tweak. But after that, everything's fine.


Besides, has anyone actually played against it yet?

[Tynskel]

How is it slow? It's as fast as any other non-Fast tank, but it can move its full movement alotment and still fire either a TL'd Multimelta or a Thunderfire cannon as normal. Addtionally, it's TFC has a 60" range.

What is slow or short ranged about it besides the MM's?

Land Raiders aren't about pure killing power, they are about staying power above all, and transportation. This has great firepower, still can transport stuff, and has ridiculous staying power.

bwahahah, what's 'short ranged about it besides the MM's?'. hahhahahha

That's 2/3rd of its weapons!
Second, I can get 5 Land Speeders with MMs for the same price. 6 Attack bikes with MMs. Probably better off too.

Yes, it has staying power, at the same time, it isn't that much more staying power than a monolith. A monolith is cheaper, and more versatile.

You sound like you are defending this tank, and I am trying to say it isn't as good as it sounds. It simply doesn't have killing power compared to other Land Raiders. And it is more expensive. Killing power of a Land Raider isn't just the weapons, it is also its carrying capacity, and how you can use the capacity. You cannot launch an assault from this thing while it is moving, and it cannot carry very many dudes.

A well rounded list can take this thing out.
I love the haywire grenade argument: it'll just move and you can only hit it on 6's. At the same time, that means your 300 point vehicle is only firing one gun. Your guys can hop out n' shoot, but not charge. I think most Dark Eldar players will be fine with the Achilles only fire one gun, and a 6 man squad getting out, even if it is the Thunderfire Cannon--- what happens if they took out the Thunderfire Cannon? 1 shot? Meh.

The real firepower of this tank is from the Thunderfire Cannon. But, you can get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the same price, hang in the, set up a defensive screen, and go crazy.

I think it would be more reasonable if it was about 10-20 points cheaper.

[Koppenflak]

So... Medusae will be in my army if this thing is coming to the table.

A previous poster incorrectly cited bastion breaches as S10 AP2 Range 24 Ord 1.

It's S10 AP1 Range 48 Ord 1 +2D6 penetration (It's neither melta or lance)
The only way that gets any better is if it's a D weapon.

Tau railguns are ok... But will not penetrate anywhere near as efficiently.

[Fueldrop]

so does anyone have a viable counter for SoB players to use?
i don't have a problem with the unit as such, i just feel that it's unreasonably hard to counter for many armies without taking a specific list to counter it.

i hate anything that forces me to use a specific unit and tactic to counter it. i play to have fun, not to have my opponent dictate what i have to do simply by putting something in his list that makes both my normal counters redundant. that's not playing nice!

[scadugenga]

I love the haywire grenade argument: it'll just move and you can only hit it on 6's. At the same time, that means your 300 point vehicle is only firing one gun. Your guys can hop out n' shoot, but not charge. I think most Dark Eldar players will be fine with the Achilles only fire one gun, and a 6 man squad getting out, even if it is the Thunderfire Cannon--- what happens if they took out the Thunderfire Cannon? 1 shot? Meh.



You're missing the haywire argument point, Tynsk. If there's nothing in charge range, it goes on and kills lots of stuff. If it's in potential charge range from wyches, it moves 12" and tries to paste them w/T-Fire cannon. Whatever survives the t-fire will have next to zero chance to harm the Achilles.

W/PotMS, every turn it's not moving 12" it's capable of killing 2 vehicles a turn as it can fire twice, and at separate targets. That's two dead transports a turn, mostly.

Massed Lascannon fire, or st. 10 ordinance is the only way to reliably get a chance at killing this thing. This should have "apoc only" stamped all over it.

[Gir]

maybe two points costs is the answer? or 2 sets of rules?

You can always house rule it so that the -1 doesn't apply to rear armour. Still hard to kill, but if you're quick, you can get in the back.

[DarkLink]

Good Lord, I haven't heard this much whining since Jaws of the World Wolf.

"Oh, but it ignores Lance and Melta, so it's physically impossible to ever destroy it ever under any circumstances!"

"It's broken, because it has a thunderfire cannon AND two multi-meltas! Everything that has even a remote chance of killing it will be instantly destroyed by the overwhelming firepower if they are even on the same board as it!"

"This is an outrage! No vehicle should be durable, have good firepower, and still be able to transport 6 whole models!"

[Vaktathi]

bwahahah, what's 'short ranged about it besides the MM's?'. hahhahahha

That's 2/3rd of its weapons! Which also have a 30" threat radius with PotMS if you want to fire both and 36" if you need that extra range to fire one (lets be honest, not that short), and are only 1/3 of it's potential shot output. That TFC is a solid weapon in its own right that can better engage threats like Raiders, Land Speeders and infantry than the MM's can with an effective 72" potential threat range.



Second, I can get 5 Land Speeders with MMs for the same price. 6 Attack bikes with MMs. Probably better off too. Yes, you can get more guns for fewer points. Will they live as long and provide the same degree of protection to other units and anchor capability to the army?



Yes, it has staying power, at the same time, it isn't that much more staying power than a monolith. Actually it is quite significantly more. You need *double* the lascannon fire to ensure a destroyed result against an Achilles than against a Monolith (effectively gaining the same survivability difference over a Monolith as between AV13 and AV14 on normal vehicles), and a Meltagun still has the ability to outright destroy a Monolith.


A monolith is cheaper, and more versatile. A monolith has many unique abilities relative to its army yes. A monolith however cannot provide the same degree of KP/VP denial or the ability to *hold* an objective in the same way, different but very powerful and important abilities.



You sound like you are defending this tank, and I am trying to say it isn't as good as it sounds. It simply doesn't have killing power compared to other Land Raiders. That depends entirely on what you are engaging, and killing potential *has never* been the primary selling point on Land Raiders. If you are having to engage heavy armor (av13/14), I'd take the MM's over LC's any day of the week (especially as once the LR gets to the middle of the board turn 2, the range issue often becomes rather moot as it'll be able to get into range of most anything that isn't sitting in a corner with a single move), and that TFC stuffs the crap out of an Assault Cannon or Heavy Bolter.


And it is more expensive. Killing power of a Land Raider isn't just the weapons, it is also its carrying capacity, and how you can use the capacity. You cannot launch an assault from this thing while it is moving, and it cannot carry very many dudes. Right, it can't be used as an assault platform. That doesn't mean it can't be used to game winning effect as KP denial or a scoring platform in ways a normal LR wouldn't be capable of surviving.



I love the haywire grenade argument: it'll just move and you can only hit it on 6's. At the same time, that means your 300 point vehicle is only firing one gun. Right, but that's likely all any LR may shoot often anyway even if not moving 12" depending on targets, arc and LoS. Again, Firepower is not, and has never been the primary use of a Land Raider.

This thing just needs to survive and hold a point or deny KP's, it doesn't need to do anything other than that to earn its 300pts.


Your guys can hop out n' shoot, but not charge. This assumes you *need* or *want* them to get out. See above.




The real firepower of this tank is from the Thunderfire Cannon. But, you can get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the same price, hang in the, set up a defensive screen, and go crazy. Those 3 TFC's are infinitely easier to kill with a far wider array of weapons and opponents, cannot transport or protect infantry, and are generally immobile for all intents and purposes.






Good Lord, I haven't heard this much whining since Jaws of the World Wolf.

"Oh, but it ignores Lance and Melta, so it's physically impossible to ever destroy it ever under any circumstances!"

"It's broken, because it has a thunderfire cannon AND two multi-meltas! Everything that has even a remote chance of killing it will be instantly destroyed by the overwhelming firepower if they are even on the same board as it!"

"This is an outrage! No vehicle should be durable, have good firepower, and still be able to transport 6 whole models!" So, whining about whining and not actually arguing any points in a constructive manner is better how?

[Fueldrop]

So, whining about whining and not actually arguing any points in a constructive manner is better how?

it's therapeutic? as i see it, the irony of this tank is that all of the guns best suited to destroy it belong to the same side (ie the mighty Imperium of man!)

yes i know that there are many alien weapons that can kill it {railguns spring to mind} but the imperium gets more {in types and number fielded}

[Gir]

it's therapeutic? as i see it, the irony of this tank is that all of the guns best suited to destroy it belong to the same side (ie the mighty Imperium of man!)

yes i know that there are many alien weapons that can kill it {railguns spring to mind} but the imperium gets more {in types and number fielded}

It's also in a book focusing on Space Marines Vs Space Marines...

[Tynskel]

The point I was bringing up is that you can spend your points more effectively. The Achilles isn't as good as you think it is.

Yes, it is durable.
But it is short ranged on 2/3rd of its weapons. Really short ranged, when you factor in the 12" melta rule.

The argument of the 5 Land Speeders is that they have 1st Strike Capability, making them more than capable of making up their points (usually more) than the Achilles can. Same with the point of the 3 Thunderfire Cannons. It doesn't matter that they get blown up, it matters that they blow up more stuff.

I think the Achilles is overpriced for what you get.

[Melissia]

Yeah, but it can't transport any of the SM's big deadly units. Best you can fit in there is a command squad, and while they can be fairly dangerous they're also very fragile and expensive compared to the more deadly units.

~1350 points:

Wolf Lord
5x Wolf Guard
5x Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
5x Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
Achilles Land Raider
Achilles Land Raider
Achilles Land Raider

Raise it to 1500 points by adding upgrades.

Better yet?

Wolf Lord
5x Grey Hunters
5x Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
Achilles Land Raider
Achilles Land Raider

Raise it to 1000 points by adding upgrades.


Hide the squads inside the land raiders, then send the land raiders off to blow **** up. I guarantee you that any list that isn't built specifically around beating these two lists could not do so at these points levels.


Tynskel: It doesn't need to make its points up in a single turn. It's going to take three Exorcists, on average, ten turns of constant shooting ot actually destroy this thing. That's ten turns of 3d6 S8 AP1 shots just to destroy a SINGLE vehicle which is cheaper than the three Exorcists. Oh, and that's without upgrades on the Land Raider. Other lists suffer similar fates, as melta and lance weapons are useless against it, and each shot that DOES glance/penetrate has greatly reduced chances of actually doing anything.

[Gir]

Why is everybody talking about this thing as if it's a ******* codex unit? It isn't. It's a specialized forge world unit designed for the Badab war campaign and Apocalypse. *****ing about it's viability in regualr games is pointless, as Imperial Armour Apocalypse allows stuff like Lightnings to be taken as Heavy Support in regular games. The allowence in regular games are for the vrey narrow band of people who want to use them for something different, or for a narrative, etc.

[DarkLink]

~1350 points:

Wolf Lord
5x Wolf Guard
5x Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
5x Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
Achilles Land Raider
Achilles Land Raider
Achilles Land Raider

Raise it to 1500 points by adding upgrades.

Better yet?

Wolf Lord
5x Grey Hunters
5x Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
Achilles Land Raider
Achilles Land Raider

Raise it to 1000 points by adding upgrades.


Hide the squads inside the land raiders, then send the land raiders off to blow **** up. I guarantee you that any list that isn't built specifically around beating these two lists could not do so at these points levels.


Oh, it'd be tough, but land raider spam has a lot of its own weaknesses. I've played it enough to know. Normally, LR spam just ends as soon as you get into melta range. Without that, then you've got three units that are hard to kill, and I've seen plenty of Land Raiders blown up by lascannons, glancing AP 1 and similar weapons.

So I stand by my statement that all they need to do is take off the -1 to the damage roll.



And, as you've pointed out, it's Forgeworld. Why are some of these people whining so much when your opponent needs your permission to use it?

[DarkLink]

Incidentally, someone on Warseer posted this:


Originally Posted by AlexHolker
I contacted Forge World with my concerns about the toughness of the Achilles and a possible fix, and received a response today. They have said that there have been some changes made for the printed version in IA10.

I also like some of the poster's suggestion that the no melta/lance and -1 damage only applies to the front armor, while the sides would be normal LR AV 14.

[DrLove42]

Incidentally, someone on Warseer posted this:



I also like some of the poster's suggestion that the no melta/lance and -1 damage only applies to the front armor, while the sides would be normal LR AV 14.

Well its nice to see FW are willing to listen to assembled masses....

The whole front armour only is good....could (maybe) live with it on the side, like a WaveSerpents shields.

[Vaktathi]

The point I was bringing up is that you can spend your points more effectively. The Achilles isn't as good as you think it is.

Yes, it is durable.
But it is short ranged on 2/3rd of its weapons. Really short ranged, when you factor in the 12" melta rule.

The argument of the 5 Land Speeders is that they have 1st Strike Capability, making them more than capable of making up their points (usually more) than the Achilles can. Same with the point of the 3 Thunderfire Cannons. It doesn't matter that they get blown up, it matters that they blow up more stuff.
Again, you seem overly focused on firepower and killing potential. Thatr is not, and never has been, the primary point of a Land Raider. You can make those exact same points against any normal Land Raider and they'll still all be true. It doesn't reduce the value of the LR, as firepower isn't the primary point. It's the *combination of firepower*, transportation ability, and resiliency. Now this thing skimps on the transportation ability, but I don't think one can honestly say it has any less firepower than any other variant (shorter AT range maybe, but definitely more raw killing potential than a normal Land Raider with that TFC), and is *far and away* more resilient than any other LR variant.

Resiliency trumps firepower in this game. That's why the "power" lists generally are those that are very hard to stop, that can either take losses and not care or that can just shrug off hits, not necessarily those that put out the most killyness (e.g 4E Eldar Skimmerspam, Nob Bikers, Mech IG, TH/SS termi spam, etc)

This thing brings resiliency in spades. It doesn't need to kill anything to be worth its cost. In C&C, stick a tac squad in it and sit it on an objective, and the majority of your opponents will now be forced to play for a draw rather than a win. In a KP game, this thing likely won't die, and neither will the IC and 5man squad inside, meaning your opponent misses out on 3 KP's which is huge.



And, as you've pointed out, it's Forgeworld. Why are some of these people whining so much when your opponent needs your permission to use it? Because it makes it hard to get opponents to allow FW stuff in general when something like this comes out if I want to use my LR Annihilator or Multimelta Sentinel. Stuff which obviously isn't really a big deal, but that gets pushed aside when something like this gets out and people get pissy about FW stuff in general.

[LoreDraconis]

I'm just happy to see a LR variant that's focused on something other than Terminator delivery. It's also the first thing ive ever seen that makes a techmarine with servitors a viable purchase, or even just an attached solo harness techmarine for 50/50 repair potential. Pop him in there with your command squad and you've got a nice and tidy package.

[DarkLink]

The whole front armour only is good....could (maybe) live with it on the side, like a WaveSerpents shields.

Yeah, that's the solution I was thinking of. Though FW themselves haven't said anything about how they're changing the rules, so this is pure speculation afaik.

[eldargal]

I'll wait for the final rules to come out before I worry about this. I must say for a tank intended for SM vs SM battles it does a damned good job of thwarting Eldar too (as has already been noted). Yay for overcoming my resin phobia and investing in several Scorpions earlier in the year.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Well i know that all the fuss is about this new tank being a little to much in some opinios, with ignoring Lance and Melta weapons, well been thinking about it.

Answer to Achillies = Shadowsword/Cobra/Scorpion or any other weapon capable of D strenght damage.
No penetration rolls, +1 to vehicle damage so that cancels out the -1.

[DrLove42]

Cept you can't take a Shadowsword/Cobra/Scorpion or anything Strength D in a normal game of 40K

This you can

[eldargal]

Since when? This is IA unit entry, it may say it is a Heavy Support entry in the other SM codices but that makes no difference as it says that in a FW publication, not a GW one*. If my opponent takes a Land Raider Achilles, I will take a Scorpion.


*Yes, I know FW is a subsidiary of GW, but the fact is FW can not overrule GW. Until the Achilles is in the Codex or WD, it is an IA entry.

[Tynskel]

If you are playing spearhead, a perfect place for the Achilles, you can take Super Heavies.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

In an Apocolypse game you take whatever you want. As Eldargal said, this is an IA model, so is the Scorpion and every varient of Baneblade, i know i have 3 different Baneblades so far.
1) GW version
2) Stormblade
and
3) Converted Shadowsord for my SoB.

If someone takes a Achillies against me, very unlikey were i play (think im the only one so far with Forgeworld models), i know im going to take my converted Shadowsword.

Hey and like they say your opponent can say if its cool to play them in normal matches too, if they take anything from IA, well so can you.

[Melissia]

Oh, it'd be tough, but land raider spam has a lot of its own weaknesses. I've played it enough to know. Normally, LR spam just ends as soon as you get into melta range. Without that, then you've got three units that are hard to kill, and I've seen plenty of Land Raiders blown up by lascannons, glancing AP 1 and similar weapons.

But not this one. The chance to destroy on a penetrate is normally 1/3rd, and on this it's 1/6th.

[Vaktathi]

Since when? This is IA unit entry, it may say it is a Heavy Support entry in the other SM codices but that makes no difference as it says that in a FW publication, not a GW one*. If my opponent takes a Land Raider Achilles, I will take a Scorpion.


*Yes, I know FW is a subsidiary of GW, but the fact is FW can not overrule GW. Until the Achilles is in the Codex or WD, it is an IA entry.

And give your opponent a 2nd FoC to work with?

[DarkLink]

But not this one. The chance to destroy on a penetrate is normally 1/3rd, and on this it's 1/6th.

And that's the one little thing that they should change. And which I presume they are going to change.

Either way, though, when you have an entire army firing at two or three Land Raiders, Achilles or not, you tend to either lose vehicles quickly and lose the game, or shrug off everything and have a chance of winning. The Achilles just means that the tank is a bit tougher, while the squads inside are mostly worthless except as scoring units.

[Vaktathi]

And that's the one little thing that they should change. And which I presume they are going to change.

Either way, though, when you have an entire army firing at two or three Land Raiders, Achilles or not, you tend to either lose vehicles quickly and lose the game, or shrug off everything and have a chance of winning. The Achilles just means that the tank is a bit tougher, while the squads inside are mostly worthless except as scoring units.

It means they are *significantly* tougher, not just a bit. Likewise, you could still throw a killy CC squad in there and have it work well, just not moving then assaulting out of it, you'd have to move and wait a turn like most other units, not the end of the world if you wanted to stuff a captain+honor guard in there or something. That said, usage as a scoring/KP denial platform is still rather powerful.

[DarkLink]

It's use as a scoring/KP denial platform is far, far more powerful than it's ability to deliver Marines into combat.

Normal Land Raiders already do a great job of delivering stuff to combat, they just tend to get melta'd afterwards. And normal Land Raiders can deliver much more intimidating (and cheaper) units than the Achilles. You can't fit any of the normal Marine deathstar type units into 6 slots. While a Captain and Honor Guard are killy, they're also very expensive and fragile compared to Assault Terminators.

[dannyat2460]

Indeed this tank is a formidable vehical and without luck on the opponents side there a pain to destroy we had a go at using 3 of them (proxied) in a 3000 point game and they worked great agains nids the thunderfire hitting the smaller stuff and the meltas gunning for the 9 fex that were after them they also shrugged off a lot of zorathope shots which for any tank is impressive, what I also did to make them even more annoying is having a tech marine with servo harnes in with a 5 man squad of marines if any dammage was taken the marines would get out and on a 4+ repair the damage very hard to kill unit but needs support

[Connjurus]

Indeed this tank is a formidable vehical and without luck on the opponents side there a pain to destroy we had a go at using 3 of them (proxied) in a 3000 point game and they worked great agains nids the thunderfire hitting the smaller stuff and the meltas gunning for the 9 fex that were after them they also shrugged off a lot of zorathope shots which for any tank is impressive, what I also did to make them even more annoying is having a tech marine with servo harnes in with a 5 man squad of marines if any dammage was taken the marines would get out and on a 4+ repair the damage very hard to kill unit but needs support

Just what I plan on doing - Master of the Force with a Servo Harness and as many Servitors as possible chilling inside mine. Apocalypse only, as I play Chaos Space Marines.

[Daemonette666]

This seems like one of FW's rare brainfarts, cool in theory, but doesn't seem fun at all, against many armies it'll be functionally invincible (eldar/DE/orks/SoB/etc) and against many others unreasonably resilient, with only more extreme SM builds, some IG armies, Tau and Tyranids presenting any real threat, and even then much less than that faced by a normal Land Raider.

No assault ramp which is good, but still has a transport capacity and a lot of powerful guns on an unholy resilient platform. Had it just been the -1 to damage results (melta and lance weaponry would still be very useful) *or* immunity to melta/lance (AP1 could still kill on a glance and glancing to death would be easier) that would have been one thing, but both makes it nigh unkillable for many armies, which isn't a good thing.
I also agree with it being a bit too over powerful. Giving it armour that has melta resistance like the Thundehawk gunship or Necron Monolith, and then making hits from any weapon system except Str "D" weapons subtract 1 from the dice roll for critical damage is just too powerful.

Sure its weapons are not designed to kill off heavily armoured tanks and it has a reduced transport capacity of only 6 models. It looks designed to be able to rush into massed enemy weapons fire and deliver a payload of elite close combat troops, and still keep on going.

In ordinary games of 40K, it would be nigh unstoppable by most armies, and those weapon systems that could hurt it would be the target of some of the marine players devastator and melta equiped landspeeder squads.

I would only let an opponent use one of these in games of Apocalypse. That, or get him to agree to let me field my Reaver or Warhound titan in the same game.

If they removed the extra rule about the -1 to critical damage rolls for non D weapons hits, then I would not mind it so much.

[Tynskel]

You guys should play against it. It really isn't as powerful as it sounds on paper. They took away the #1 thing that makes a Land Raider expensive: capacity to carry troops into the heart of battle.

Without the Assault capability, this thing has lost a huge amount of its ability. All you have to do is shake it, and it becomes a 300 1 gun. Much rather pay for 100 point Thunderfire, and then spend the 200 points on something that will kill, gain 3+ cover saves and a techmarine.