Dark Eldar - The Good, The Bad, The Pointless

[DrBored]

Alright, so we've gotten a few weeks in with the Codex and some people have more playtesting than others.. but let's help some of the newbies out there to help finesse some lists and weed out the bad upgrades out there that can confound people. I'm going to throw out my opinions on a few things I've found, feel free to put in yours!

Let's start with two of the most common upgrades we're going to see: Flickerfields and Night Shields. Both of these can be taken on all of the DE vehicles (the Venom comes stock with Flickerfields) and have interesting effects. Flickerfields gives a 5+ invuln save to the vehicle, and Night Shields reduces range of weapons firing on the vehicle by 6" (which also, by the way, turns Rapid Fire range from 12" to 6", and really damages Melta range).

Night Shields: Awesome, especially on Ravagers, Razorwings, Voidravens, and Raiders that intend to sit back on objectives. This simple upgrade allows you to out-range Chimeras, and forces your enemy to get closer to you in order to get shots off, which means you'll have an easier time getting into close combat range. However, I would not recommend this upgrade for Raiders that you intend to charge forward into the fray, as the effect effectively becomes pointless, wasted points as you're already up in your opponent's face anyway.

Flickerfields: Not as awesome as a 4+ cover save. Let's be honest, this isn't the Smoke Launchers we may wish it was, but, granted, ignoring 1/3rd of the shots may be the difference between life and death. When a squad of 3 Obliterators fires on your Raider, 2 of those shots will hit and both will probably pen. Being able to ignore one of those Pen results will help keep your Raider alive that much longer, but it's not going to save you for very long. Remember, that one other pen result can still trash your transport; we're talking about AV 10, open-topped here after all. I would not recommend putting this on Ravagers, Razorwings, or Raiders that intend to sit back, but on Voidravens that want to use that Void Mine, or Raiders that intend to charge into the fray where cover is going to be sparse, why not? It's better than nothing, but if you're pinched for points elsewhere in your army, drop this upgrade.

That's the dirty of both those upgrades. Here's a few more.

Enhanced Aethersails: Why? Why would you take this? You don't get to shoot if you use them, and while, yes, they can get you across the table, moving Flat Out with your vehicles should get you far enough as is. Wasted points, but situational at best.

Retrofire Jets: Best on Ravagers or Raiders full of Warriors, but if you're going to spend the points, why not just get Duke Sliscus and upgrade a squad of anti-infantry Trueborn while you're at it, and be able to deepstrike everything?

Shock Prow: I haven't seen too many tank shocks in my time, I really haven't. If you're that kind of player, why not? Go for it, you can get a lot of speed out of a Raider and a Shock Prow will do some damage with that in mind, but I'd rather put the points elsewhere.

Torment Grenade Launchers: Don't use these against anything that's going to pass it's leadership anyway, ie Space Marines or Chaos Marines or Fearless things. Against Orks and Guard you could get some use out of this as you shoot them to death and force those morale checks, but your Raider has to be right in their face to make use of it, so plan accordingly. Not worth the points in an all-comers list.

Splinter Racks: This upgrade is nice actually. Re-rolling to-hits on poisoned weapons is beautiful, especially with a squad of Warriors inside. You'll pump out a lot of nice damage with those splinter rifles, but don't go putting splinter racks on just anything and everything.

Grisly Trophies: This upgrade might do well if you like Wyches and Wracks as troops. Being able to re-roll failed leadership tests after losing a combat may be the difference between getting the squad wiped by a sweeping advance and staying in the fight for one more round. Your Raider still has to be really close to the unit, which typically isn't the best idea depending on where you're fighting, so I wouldn't bother with this too much either.

Envenomed Blades: If your opponent is assaulting your transports, you're either doing something very right or he's doing something very silly. Raiders are so squishy that they can be shot to death by Bolters and so there should rarely be a point where a Raider is assaulted. If you intend to use your Raiders to stave off assaults from other units, then this might help a little, but that's situational at best. Put the points elsewhere.

Chain Snares: This is essentially a slightly better version of the Reaver Bladevanes for two reasons. 1. it's d3+1 hits (so you'll always get at least 2) and 2. You don't have to turbo-boost to use it. It's still a weak attack, as cover and armor saves can be taken against it, and you're only getting a max of 4 hits for this upgrade, and it doesn't effect vehicles at all. Unless you like Raider Suicide, I wouldn't bother with this upgrade.

That covers the vehicle upgrades for the Dark Eldar Codex. Thoughts? I'll be extending this next with the Arcane wargear, the most confusing of the sections!

[Bleakz87]

See i disagree with your night shields and flicker field thing other then that i agree with everything you posted. I think night shields are best used on raiders. You have to remember rapid fire is really 18 inches (move unit 6 in ches foword rapid fire 12. So if you fly your raider 11 and a half inches forward. They move up 6 shoot 12 now your being rapid fired by troops on your Transports and meltas are hitting you. So now they don't have to use their big guns on your transports they can use them on your ravagers and stuff in the back. Now with night shields they move 6 and shoot 6. So now you can move 11 and 1/2 and be out of range on turn one always making them choose whether to use their heavies on your transports or your heavies.

Flickerfields i feel are best for your Long ranged guys like ravagers, Lets say 3 oblits shoot at your ravager 1 should miss one should get blocked by your flicker field and one should pen. Assuming their not all in the same group that means statisicly he had to waste 3 shots on one target and your other 2 ravagers are all good.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry about grammar english is my second language

[DrBored]

See i disagree with your night shields and flicker field thing other then that i agree with everything you posted. I think night shields are best used on raiders. You have to remember rapid fire is really 18 inches (move unit 6 in ches foword rapid fire 12. So if you fly your raider 11 and a half inches forward. They move up 6 shoot 12 now your being rapid fired by troops on your Transports and meltas are hitting you. So now they don't have to use their big guns on your transports they can use them on your ravagers and stuff in the back. Now with night shields they move 6 and shoot 6. So now you can move 11 and 1/2 and be out of range on turn one always making them choose whether to use their heavies on your transports or your heavies.

Flickerfields i feel are best for your Long ranged guys like ravagers, Lets say 3 oblits shoot at your ravager 1 should miss one should get blocked by your flicker field and one should pen. Assuming their not all in the same group that means statisicly he had to waste 3 shots on one target and your other 2 ravagers are all good.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry about grammar english is my second language

You do make an excellent case for Night Shields, though I still disagree with the Flickerfield (who takes single Oblits? They're going to be in groups of 3 and there's going to be 2 more of those groups).

So let's agree that Night Shields have their uses on just about everything.. but Flickerfields.. are up in the air. Anything that can sit back and get a 4+ cover save from terrain should endeavor to do so, so Flickerfields aren't as useful in that regard.

[Bleakz87]

Well i feel like a tool because my 1,500 point Nurgle list had a defiler a group of 2 oblits and a single one. as my 3 heavy support options. I won alot of tournaments with it. I'm just saying that flicker field makes me have to use both my oblit squads to take down one ravager (statistically) But your absolutely right most army's run with more then 3 in separate squads but lets assume they take 9. The flicker fields still statistically shrug off one shot. And it just puts the odds in your favor of keeping your heavies alive. I would never put them on raiders though too much **** will be shooting at them turn 2 to warrant it.

[DrBored]

Well i feel like a tool because my 1,500 point Nurgle list had a defiler a group of 2 oblits and a single one. as my 3 heavy support options. I won alot of tournaments with it. I'm just saying that flicker field makes me have to use both my oblit squads to take down one ravager (statistically) But your absolutely right most army's run with more then 3 in separate squads but lets assume they take 9. The flicker fields still statistically shrug off one shot. And it just puts the odds in your favor of keeping your heavies alive. I would never put them on raiders though too much **** will be shooting at them turn 2 to warrant it.

Precisely.

The main problem I have with Flickerfields is that.. in the 9 Oblit scenario (let's just say they're using Lascannons) they only have to roll a 2 or better to penetrate weak 10 armor, or a 3+ to pen Ravager armor. That's the worst they'll ever have to do against the common Raider or Ravager, and so when you get models with Lascannons at BS 4, two of every three is going to hit, and then 5 of every 6 that hit are going to pen. If you shrug off one of every three, that still leaves one of every three that's going to do serious damage, especially since the vehicles are open-topped and add +1 to the pen roll. Sadly, there's no getting around it that if your opponent focuses fire against your vehicles, he's going to destroy them.

So, yeah, 5+ is certainly better than nothing, and it could save you, but 2 of every 3 times it's not going to do very much at all, so is it worth the points in a Codex that requires more bodies and more weapons on the table to do a successful alpha-strike? In my opinion, not as much. There's where the heart of the problem is. If you have 6 Raiders and 3 Ravagers, that's 90 points that could be going to more Dark Lances, Blasters, and other deadly upgrades on the table.

[Bleakz87]

I mean thats assuming hes got that much oblits, Lets say he does thats a 225 point unit he used to kill a 115 point ravager. Since my transports have night shields no shots were done to my transports and i go on to School him. Now most likely people will have 2 groups of two in which case he might do nothing at all one misses one gets shruged off. So lets say one ravager dies one lives those minscule points just kept 3 dark lance shots around for one more turn. Now i shoot his oblits with my 3 ravagers and they die to insta death since im Str 8 armor pen 2. Either way he either wasted 225 points of shooting to kill a 115 point skimmer boat and my raiders get in unscathed and own face. Or he doesnt have 9 oblits and 2 ravagers live.

Once again Statistically.

Edit: and this is assuming he gets turn one. I may get the first round do shooting and and Wither his 9 oblits making them 6 once again saving a ravager statisticly.

[thecactusman17]

Flickerfields have a number of uses, but I'm not 100% sure that they are 10 points worth of useful. Flicerfields are one of those items that will be absolute godsends when they do work and utterly worthless when they don't. With an open-topped transport, I frankly think that flickerfields simply aren't worth the investment. On the Ravager or either aircraft, they are a smart option but one that can still be bested by the other options. such as...

Nightshields are the most ridiculous thing in the game so long as you aren't playing against Imperial Guard or another army that is heavily reliant on template and blast weapons. Nightshields have a number of purposes, not the least of which is making rapid-fire enemy weapons nearly useless. With RF weapons defaulting to RF when the unit moves, it makes the effective threat range of many armies including Tau and Space Marines very short for any mechanized unit. Scream out across the table at full speed and this gear that makes so many weapons downright incapable of hitting your unit all the less effective. For an army that is supposedly a glass cannon, this upgrade can increase the survivability of any mechanized unit exponentially.

Shock Prow is a very interesting option, especially after considering the new codex. It is not worth taking without it's buddy, aethersails. Aethersails allow an average roll and smart positioning to turn your half-destroyed skimmer into a S10 missile of fury. HOWEVER, you must disembark units first or the collision will likely wipe them out completely. If you were to combine this with the -1Ld Tormentor Grenades, this could actually be a ridiculously vicious combo of game winning proportions, but it's too reliant on lucky dice rolling to work for most people.

Disintegrator Cannons are a weapon that many people in my area are dismissing as not being a worthwhile swap, but that's because so many are looking to punch through massed armor on the first turn--a noble goal, to be sure. But I want you to imagine what any other unit with 9 S5 AP2 shots would be described as and come back to me. Razorwing Jetfighters can put out so many wounds on a turn with these it can only be described as embarrassing.

[w7west]

Shock prow with torment grenades is a very powerful tool to have for just 10 points. Basically steals a page out of eldar playbook and does it with -1 ld.

[Tacoo]

one thing i dont think that many people realize is that dont you also get to use the 5+ flickerfield in death or glory, melee attacks, and anything else that acauses damage results?

[DrBored]

Disintegrator Cannons are a weapon that many people in my area are dismissing as not being a worthwhile swap, but that's because so many are looking to punch through massed armor on the first turn--a noble goal, to be sure. But I want you to imagine what any other unit with 9 S5 AP2 shots would be described as and come back to me. Razorwing Jetfighters can put out so many wounds on a turn with these it can only be described as embarrassing.

The problem is taking them on Raiders, where you only get one of them. Remember, we're not Space Marines. Our transports will die from glancing shots and we don't have smoke launchers to help our Raiders stay alive. Many times, many Raiders will not get the opportunity to pump out anti-infantry shots, so it's better to give them the Dark Lances for that anti-tank shot so that the rest of your army can chew up the infantry when the transports are all gone.

You're absolutely right with Razorwings though. Razorwings with 4 Shatterfield missiles, Disintegrator Cannons, and a Splinter Cannon can pump out an ungodly amount of damage from long-range. This is the model that I see people using to get enemies off of objectives late-game.



one thing i dont think that many people realize is that dont you also get to use the 5+ flickerfield in death or glory, melee attacks, and anything else that acauses damage results?

This is true, but even then it's still just as useful/useless. You're only shrugging off 1/3rd of attacks, and let's face it.. Compared to Rhinos, the enemy is going to have many more options that can kill Raiders and can bring small-arms fire into the mix instead of wasting their big plasma, las, and melta options, so when an enemy focuses their fire against a vehicle in our army, it's going to die, invuln save or not. Then, when the vehicle explodes you're going to be scratching your head wondering why your 5+ invuln save didn't help you. Talk to a Chaos Daemons player and they'll tell you how often 5+ invuln has helped them against anything. It's better than nothing, but there are better ways to get saves on your vehicle (hiding it, going flat out, which for us confers a cover save, etc..)

Simply playing strategically will do more for your Raider than a point-sink upgrade. If you have the points, why not? But when you look at it, you could also have a Haemonculus Ancient with Animus Vitae and a Venom Blade for the same amount of points as 6 Raiders and 3 Ravagers with Flickerfields.

[AbusePuppy]

Disintegrators are a fine weapon, but they occupy an awkward spot. If you're taking them, you need to load up on AT elsewhere, which is sometimes difficult.

The aircraft definitely shouldn't take DCannons, though; mixing AP values is a no-no. Shatterfield is a great weapon for dumping a bunch of hits onto a horde unit, but keep the Lances for killing off any tanks/heavy infantry they have. (Monoscythe are good enough that you often don't need to pay to upgrade them; wounding on 2s against most everything is good enough.)

Flickerfield is always worth considering. Sure, it might do nothing, or you might get hit by so many shots it's irrelevant. On the other hand, it might shrug off every one of those six Oblit shots or you might ignore the one that would've made you useless when you already got hit with a Weapon Destroyed. The more vehicles you have, the more valuable it becomes. The advantage of the Field over other cover saves is that you can guarantee it- no need to give up your shooting (and the unit inside, and any possibility of disembarking) and no need to try and squeeze behind terrain (sometimes difficult with a flying stand, and there isn't always enough for six or nine hulls.)

Night Shields are more situational, but are still quite good- better than the Field in some cases. They're best when you want to go for a long-range game followed by a short-range sweep. However, keep in mind that many of the tank-killing guns are 48" range (Autocannons, Missile Launchers, and Lascannons, just to name a few), so you are still going to get hammered by armies with good shooting. Think carefully about your game plan.

Retrofire Thrusters are useful because you don't always want to sink 150pts into an HQ with specific uses. Paying 25-50pts across your entire army is a much better deal if you're looking for deployment options, but it's definitely not something I'd always take. And again, you may want to give it to just a few select units.

Shock Prow is really good and really cheap. Tank Shocking is awesome for taking/contesting objectives, and DE vehicles can Ram at some pretty ridiculous speeds. Trading your gunless Raider for their Leeman Russ or Predator is a perfectly acceptable deal. Consider them as a way to dump those last few points, not a first pick option.

Splinter Racks are amazing when combined with Carbine Trueborn (and maybe add in The Duck for laughs.)

Grisly Trophies are more useful for insuring that disembarked units stay where you need them than keeping guys in combat. Most DE are high enough Init that getting swept isn't as much of a problem for them, and you shouldn't be losing combat by a lot unless something has gone terribly wrong.

[DrBored]

Disintegrators are a fine weapon, but they occupy an awkward spot. If you're taking them, you need to load up on AT elsewhere, which is sometimes difficult.

The aircraft definitely shouldn't take DCannons, though; mixing AP values is a no-no. Shatterfield is a great weapon for dumping a bunch of hits onto a horde unit, but keep the Lances for killing off any tanks/heavy infantry they have. (Monoscythe are good enough that you often don't need to pay to upgrade them; wounding on 2s against most everything is good enough.)

-On the contrary, D-Cannon Razorwings with Splinter Cannons and any of the missiles will throw out more anti-infantry than most other options in the Codex. Give the Dark Lances to Ravagers or to Trueborn. One Razorwing will decimate a squad, but he needs those DCannons to shred things apart properly and with enough volume of fire.

Splinter Racks are amazing when combined with Carbine Trueborn (and maybe add in The Duck for laughs.)

-Actually, Splinter Racks only work for Splinter Rifles and Splinter Pistols, no other weapon. Using the Duke in this combo would be a waste because the Shard Carbines wouldn't be able to benefit from the re-roll to hit.

Grisly Trophies are more useful for insuring that disembarked units stay where you need them than keeping guys in combat. Most DE are high enough Init that getting swept isn't as much of a problem for them, and you shouldn't be losing combat by a lot unless something has gone terribly wrong.

-This is true, so using your Raider to help Warriors on an objective would indeed help, but if you need the points elsewhere, put those points into something else instead of this.

Still don't like Flickerfields. Playtesting will tell. I have a feeling that they will be one of those things that some people will swear by because they have good dice, and other people will hate because they have bad dice.

[omega engaged]

I was thinking about the tormenter grenades and shock prow myself... and a most devious scheme didst occur to me. Here's how it goes- take a squad of 10 reavers and put them either directly in front of or behind a raider or ravager with a shock prow and tormenter grenades (raider is probably a better choice). In the movement phase turbo-boost your reavers over an enemy infantry unit and the bladevanes should cause some wounds. At the end of the movement have your reavers form a horse-shoe shape around the enemy squad. Once this is done, go ahead and tank shock with that raider. If you caused enough wounds with the bladevanes, your victims should have to take two morale tests at reduced leadership- one for the tank shock and one for 25% casualties. If they fail and your models are positioned correctly the enemy unit will be forced to fall back into your units and will, thusly, be destroyed outright (in the movement phase!). Add a grav-talon and they'll have to take a pinning test, too.

Just a thought.

[AbusePuppy]

Sure, Razorwings with D-Cannons and missiles shoot harder than anything else. They also do so without D-Cannons because those only add 2-3 wounds to the 5-20 you're already doing. Lances give you the option of shooting at vehicles to get their troops in the open before launching missiles or gun down tanks after you've gotten rid of threatening infantry. Duality is a boon.

Dangit, didn't notice that on Splinter Racks. Ah well, they're still useful on Raiders sometimes, I suppose. (The Duck benefits any poisoned weapons in his squad so you would presumably use him with Warriors instead of Trueborn if you wanted to try this.)

None of the upgrades are automatic "take every time" stuff; different builds will need each of them in turn and find others useless, although Aether Sails and Envenomed Blades are going to be fairly rare.


I have a feeling that they will be one of those things that some people will swear by because they have good dice, and other people will hate because they have bad dice.

I'm just gonna say I find this mentality very silly. No one has "good dice" or "bad dice," because that's not how probability works. It may be that some dice are slightly better than others in terms of how they're shaped/weighted, but noticing such discrepancies is well beyond the tracking capability of most people. The actual explanation for good/bad dice is biases of human perception and expectation.

[Frankio9]

I always thought you could use Aethersails in addition to your Turbo-Boosting move? Because otherwise why would there be such an upgrade?

[LoverzCry]

It's an Invulnerable Save... On a Vehicle, for only 10 points. What's not to like here? So what if it's only a 5+, that could be the save that makes it. Honestly haven't read through all the other upgrades and such, but to me if I could take that on my regular Eldar Falcons and such, I'd definitely drop the points. :L

[DrBored]

Sure, Razorwings with D-Cannons and missiles shoot harder than anything else. They also do so without D-Cannons because those only add 2-3 wounds to the 5-20 you're already doing. Lances give you the option of shooting at vehicles to get their troops in the open before launching missiles or gun down tanks after you've gotten rid of threatening infantry. Duality is a boon.

It's one of those things where you have to look at the rest of your list. If you have plenty of anti-tank and a Heavy Support slot open, why not take a Razorwing with D-Cannons to up your anti-infantry? I'd gladly add 2-3 extra wounds to the table, considering how many 3+ and 2+ armor saves there are these days, and positioned well, those str 5 weapons can still pen armor 10, and on a vehicle as fast as the Razorwing, it wouldn't be hard to get into a position to do so if you really need to.

Dangit, didn't notice that on Splinter Racks. Ah well, they're still useful on Raiders sometimes, I suppose. (The Duck benefits any poisoned weapons in his squad so you would presumably use him with Warriors instead of Trueborn if you wanted to try this.)

Well one big reason to take the Duke is if you have a high-volume-of-fire poison-weapon team, like Trueborn with x2 Splinter Cannons and as many Shard Carbines as you can get your hands on. Fitting him with a bunch of Warriors... it can work, and you can be more killy, but frankly it makes your troop choice way too vulnerable to an enemy's ire. I wouldn't recommend it unless you're playing really small games.

None of the upgrades are automatic "take every time" stuff; different builds will need each of them in turn and find others useless, although Aether Sails and Envenomed Blades are going to be fairly rare.

Well said.


I'm just gonna say I find this mentality very silly. No one has "good dice" or "bad dice," because that's not how probability works. It may be that some dice are slightly better than others in terms of how they're shaped/weighted, but noticing such discrepancies is well beyond the tracking capability of most people. The actual explanation for good/bad dice is biases of human perception and expectation.

It was a simple way of saying that some people have good luck or bad luck. There are going to be people out there that have great epic games where suddenly that 5+ invuln saves their butts, and then there are going to be people that have terrible games where the 5+ is nothing but wasted against a bunch of Bolter glances, and you know how the internet is. People will hold fast to one opinion or the other, and frankly it's up in the air. If your metagame features flat tables with no terrain, then 5+ is awesome, but if you're at a tournament where there's an appropriate amount of cover, then 5+ isn't that awesome in the face of better 4+ saves. Look at what you have, what you're doing with your Raiders, and where you want your Raiders to be, and that should help you decide if a 5+ is really, truly worth it.


I always thought you could use Aethersails in addition to your Turbo-Boosting move? Because otherwise why would there be such an upgrade?

This is true, but you can already turboboost 24". Yeah it'd be nice to get a 26-36" turbo boost, but most of the time you want to be shooting with your Raiders. I could see these being useful together with a Shock Prow to get that extra armor pen against tanks, but if you have enough Dark Lances in your list, there shouldn't be a reason to do that.


It's an Invulnerable Save... On a Vehicle, for only 10 points. What's not to like here? So what if it's only a 5+, that could be the save that makes it. Honestly haven't read through all the other upgrades and such, but to me if I could take that on my regular Eldar Falcons and such, I'd definitely drop the points. :L

It could indeed make the save that saves the day, but it could also fail miserably. If you feel like a lucky guy, take it on everything, but let's take a small step backwards here...

Dark Eldar are a Glass Cannon. They aren't meant to take enemy fire at all if possible, and when they do they die. It's a fact of life. Those same 10 points could be thrown into adding another Warrior to a squad, or another upgrade to your Archon or Haemonculus, or to an extra weapon in a Trueborn or Wych squad. All of these options make the army more killy, and the more killy they are, the more survivable they will be because the more they kill on those first turns, the less will be able to shoot back at them.

In the spirit of the Dark Eldar, I can't recommend Flickerfields to anybody, novice or expert, with a sound conscience. I would rather upgrade a Warrior to a Sybarite for the extra Leadership (and therefore the extra staying power) than give a cardboard box a save.


I was thinking about the tormenter grenades and shock prow myself... and a most devious scheme didst occur to me. Here's how it goes- take a squad of 10 reavers and put them either directly in front of or behind a raider or ravager with a shock prow and tormenter grenades (raider is probably a better choice). In the movement phase turbo-boost your reavers over an enemy infantry unit and the bladevanes should cause some wounds. At the end of the movement have your reavers form a horse-shoe shape around the enemy squad. Once this is done, go ahead and tank shock with that raider. If you caused enough wounds with the bladevanes, your victims should have to take two morale tests at reduced leadership- one for the tank shock and one for 25% casualties. If they fail and your models are positioned correctly the enemy unit will be forced to fall back into your units and will, thusly, be destroyed outright (in the movement phase!). Add a grav-talon and they'll have to take a pinning test, too.

Just a thought.

That is a nasty scheme, you should playtest it and tell us how it works! It's very in the spirit of the Dark Eldar, literally you'd be wrapping your enemies in a net to let the Reavers pick them up and load them back up onto the Raider, disposed of and harmless, ready to be turned into slaves!

[Cereal n' Milk]

I disagree about the flickerfields...I've been using them constantly on all my vehicles, and they haven't been game-breaking, but they sure do help a lot. When I wanted to fire my trueborn/venom, i could feel a little safer knowing they had a 5+ save. And also, I played a game against an IG army that had the hyrda autocannon, which denies the 4+ flat out save. That 5+ save helped a lot on making my vehicles a little more effective.

I wouldn't take it on everything, but I'd take it on a few key units.

[DarkLink]

It could indeed make the save that saves the day, but it could also fail miserably. If you feel like a lucky guy, take it on everything, but let's take a small step backwards here...


Yeah, well, the only thing you can rely on is the odds. You can't plan for luck. It's pointless to even try. So look at the odds and see if it's worth it.

And as to whether or not they're worth it, to paraphrase Buffo: "If the internet doesn't like flickerfields, then the internet is re-tawded".

[DrBored]

Yeah, well, the only thing you can rely on is the odds. You can't plan for luck. It's pointless to even try. So look at the odds and see if it's worth it.

And as to whether or not they're worth it, to paraphrase Buffo: "If the internet doesn't like flickerfields, then the internet is re-tawded".

BuFFo may just be having good luck with them. I'd rather have a 4+ cover save by playing smart and strategically turbo-boosting across the field rather than pretend my Dark Eldar are Space Marines.

[Xas]

I've learned to love FF.

I'm still undecided on Nightshields however.



Why I love FF?

Most straight forward it statistically upgrades your AV10 vehicles to an AV11 equivalent when shot at by s7 (actually you also ignore 1/3 of all glances so your slightly better) and your AV11 become AV12 equivalent when shot at by s8. The better the weapon strenght, the better your Flickerfields get.

Another way to see it is that it roughly cancels out beeing open topped (2 destroyed results turn to 3 desroyed results of which 1 is ignored statistically) without any of the negative aspects of beeing closed topped (s4 explosions, no disembark-charge, ...).

But I love it because it is an upgraded that exploits the best part of statistics in wargaming. You dont expect much of a 5++ or 1/3 chance (for which you will pay less than 5% of your total army points) but when the extreme tail of the bell curve hits you are going to mentally waste your oponent. It really is hilarious when things that would ruin a landraider easily chip of a silly raider. We all know that it WILL happen sooner or later that you pass 3-4 of these saves in a row (I just yesterday made 7 out of 8 flickerfield saves in a 2v2 resulting in 1 lance loss in a raider while my CSM ally got shot to bits in his "sturdy" rhinos. HAH!)

Last but not least it is a subtle upgrade. Your oponent will usually not take it into account in his battle plans (how should he? a 4+ cover save is easy as you basically need double the firepower but multiplying ONE lascanon with 1,5 is a hard thing to do in a natural universe) and therefore each save you make can disrupt his battle plan.

[Cereal n' Milk]

I'm still undecided on Nightshields however.



I honestly love nightshields. I have them on every vehicle. Theyre nice on ravagers so that those oh so annoying autocannons have to move to get in range of my ravagers and my raiders are protected a little more against bolters and meltaguns. It makes meltaguns so much harder to get in range.

I think it's well worth its points. But that's just me.

[Sorrowshard]

Last time I checked Auto cannons had a 48 inch range , so knocking off six inches does not help you at all , what with your 36 inch range lances .....

Nightshields in my experience thus far only seem circumstantially useful and only on Ravagers. I dropped them off my test list and saw no difference, maybe if they added the range to night fight , like the name might suggest ? most of the weps that are an actual threat to your raiders wont give to figs about -6 range .

Dont know about you , but most of my DE list currently end up being fairly close to the enemy ATM as their damage output is highest close in , I'm finding offense to be DE's strongest defense, just jack the fools before they can hurt you.

[w7west]

Night shields are very powerful against space marine armies or IG. You know those melta guns? Yeah don't even worry about those anymore they can't touch you. You know those assault cannons and multi meltas? Yeah don't worry about those either they don't have a chance. What about all of those multi lasers and heavy bolters bull**** that IG have 3 of on every piece of plastic? Yeah just sit at 30-36" cool scenery bro.

It's not as clear of a benefit as ff since you have to play kinda dirty to make the most out of nightsheilds, but my ravagers don't leave home without them.

[arch_inquisitor]

Things like FF will just force other armies to do the same thing that they have to do to SM and that is force saving throws.

The more and more I look at this book the more it feels like another MEQ but with better and faster stuff -except the Archon, he sucks-.

[w7west]

Things like FF will just force other armies to do the same thing that they have to do to SM and that is force saving throws.

The more and more I look at this book the more it feels like another MEQ but with better and faster stuff -except the Archon, he sucks-.

don't know if serious

[arch_inquisitor]

I am serious, I'm not saying they are a MEQ but with all the saves they can generate (+, ++, FNP) they come pretty close to being just as annoying to kill as a spash muhreen.

[w7west]

-except the Archon, he sucks-.

still don't think serious

[DrLove42]

Either he can't be serious, or hes kitting the archon out completly wrong or sucks at playing. An archon can take mephiston, a demon prince, a wraithlord or the swarmlord out in one turn....theres not much else out there that can do that! Blast Pistol shot first to inst-kill the weaker ones, then 6-7 attacks with a huskblade/agoniser at WS7, Init 7

DE are the polar oppsoite of MEQ its just they get an extra save. Doesn't make them as durable. Hit them before they get change to earn those saves and they're die easier than a lot of other armies. Theres not a single unit in the DE codex that is a tough as a marine. When you factor in lower toughness, a default armour save that is high enough that most default weapons (bolters, shuricatapults, flamers) ignore it and the fact FNP is a worse save than a marines 3+ and is ignored by anything high strength or low AP, they're considerably worse than a marine who gets his better save, at higher toughness, when he gets shot out of his AV14 vehicle...

[Sorrowshard]

Heh , I did point out that the NF's are ok on the ravagers , I continue to use them unless short on points.

The archon is a machine, I have managed to get one running around with 9 str 10 PW attacks !! he can just shred a weakened or sub 10 man squad himself,

pop him next to a couple of shardnets and he can be very hard to kill

[arch_inquisitor]

Either he can't be serious, or hes kitting the archon out completly wrong or sucks at playing. An archon can take mephiston, a demon prince, a wraithlord or the swarmlord out in one turn....theres not much else out there that can do that! Blast Pistol shot first to inst-kill the weaker ones, then 6-7 attacks with a huskblade/agoniser at WS7, Init 7

DE are the polar oppsoite of MEQ its just they get an extra save. Doesn't make them as durable. Hit them before they get change to earn those saves and they're die easier than a lot of other armies. Theres not a single unit in the DE codex that is a tough as a marine. When you factor in lower toughness, a default armour save that is high enough that most default weapons (bolters, shuricatapults, flamers) ignore it and the fact FNP is a worse save than a marines 3+ and is ignored by anything high strength or low AP, they're considerably worse than a marine who gets his better save, at higher toughness, when he gets shot out of his AV14 vehicle...

But in CC with a marine a DE warrior squad with a pain token will get his 5+ witch contrary to popular belief works quite a bit. then they will get the FNP 3+, Terminators aren't even so lucy as to get an extra save if the first one fails.

Another example, a squad of gaurdsmen shooting a DE warrior squad with a pain token will again get his 5+. then they will get the FNP 3+. If I were a gaurdsmen I'd rather be shooting at marines.

And you didn't point out all the ++ they can do. I had a list with almost all 4++ -5++.

Raiders with FF an NS are better than rhinos/razorbacks and LRs. And Ravagers just rape Armour heavy lists.

Oh yeah we also have decent template weapons now, that are better than the marine ones.

And did you seriously just suggest 'hitting them' before the can 'hit you' as a tactic.

So I'm not really scared of bolters.

I'll admit against an actual Marine army it takes tweaking to make a list marineish, which you don't really need to do. but against others Guard, Tyranid etc, they might as well be marines. Its the fact that you can do such lists that bugs me.

On the Archon, no the guy I play is better than me he generally avoids him in CC at all costs and wastes copious amounts of firepower on him whenever he gets the chance. I might have been a little cocky in those first games, but still.

[Porty1119]

Night shields are very powerful against space marine armies or IG. You know those melta guns? Yeah don't even worry about those anymore they can't touch you. You know those assault cannons and multi meltas? Yeah don't worry about those either they don't have a chance. What about all of those multi lasers and heavy bolters bull**** that IG have 3 of on every piece of plastic? Yeah just sit at 30-36" cool scenery bro.

It's not as clear of a benefit as ff since you have to play kinda dirty to make the most out of nightsheilds, but my ravagers don't leave home without them.

Ha. Ha. I play Airborne, upgraded Vulture and all. I can play the mobility game,too. So, good night to you, my good sir. My plasma gun looks forward to meeting your Raiders.

[DrLove42]

But in CC with a marine a DE warrior squad with a pain token will get his 5+ witch contrary to popular belief works quite a bit. then they will get the FNP 3+, Terminators aren't even so lucy as to get an extra save if the first one fails.

Another example, a squad of gaurdsmen shooting a DE warrior squad with a pain token will again get his 5+. then they will get the FNP 3+. If I were a gaurdsmen I'd rather be shooting at marines.
.

FNP is a 4+ actually. So no....

Looking at the common weapons....

A bolter or shuriken catapult (S4 AP5)
Has a 66% chance of killing if it hits a DE warrior without FNP
It has a 33% chance of killing a DE with FNP
It has a 20% chance of killing a marine.
It has a 8.5% of a Terminator Kill

A Pulse Rilfe (Fire Warrior) (S5 AP5)
DE (No FNP) 83%
DE (FNP) 42%
MEQ 33%
Termy 8.5%

Scatter Laser (Eldar Weapon) (S6 AP6)
DE (No FNP) 54%
DE (FNP) 54%
MEQ 27.39%
Termy 14.11%

Lascannon
DE (No FNP) 83%
DE (FNP) 83%
MEQ 83%
Termy 54.78%

Lasgun
DE (No FNP) 33%
DE (FNP) 17%
MEQ 11%
Termy 5.61%

These are probability of a hit (cos the shot's chance of hitting is a constant, don't depend on whos rolling saves) scoring a kill through wounds and saves.

As you can see a marine is more survivable in every weapon except for a lascannon (which be kinda understandable).

Termies might only get 1 save, but theirs is good enough to win every time, and an invulnerable, thats the same as a DE's armour save....

So no DE aren't as durable as marines. I know this is only a cross section of all the weapons out there, but these are some of the most atypical and common ones.

Then factor in most the MEQ vehciles being harder, being able to fire when stunned/shaken (machine spirit), cheaper heavy weapons, (and outside the game hundred times more support and special models to buy and use). So no i don't think a DE is as durable as a MEQ




And yes hitting them before they hit you is a viable tactic. How do you deal with Ork Hordes, and Nid Swarms?

[w7west]

Ha. Ha. I play Airborne, upgraded Vulture and all. I can play the mobility game,too. So, good night to you, my good sir. My plasma gun looks forward to meeting your Raiders.

Not a raider can be found in my army I am all venoms all day. For those who have not given venoms a try they are where the real cheese is in this codex. Other than 9 venoms the rest of my army is just antitank. 3 ravager 12 blaster trueborn, 2 dual heatlanced reavers, 4 haywire blaster scourge, 6 blaster warriors.. I think that is it. Comes in right around 2k depending on what i take for HQ but lately a simple 120pt agonizer archon works out.

But yeah hope you didn't plan on spending a lot of points on vehicles they gonna die.

[darthken]

im actually not becoming a big fan of wyches after this weeks playttest of a wych cult themed army.
had a succubus, with electro whip and blast pistol with 9 brides 2x shard nets and 1x hydra gauntlet, syren with agoniser.
3 games against vanilla SM and 2 games against Tau
drugs against SM's was 1st +1WS 2nd re-roll to wound 3rd +1 A

2 games they assualted in, bounced off, lost combat and got run down. the 3rd game they got stuck there for 4 turns. This was against just normal SM troops with no special upgrades or characters. Who i had depleted with shooting before the assault.

Against the Tau drugs were both a pain token.
1st game he rolles double 6's for his spotting distance and blow's the raider to bits and 7 brides died.
2nd game they got stuck against a normal unit of fire warriors for the whole game, just couldn't kill them or break them.

so am i just unlucky or is anyone else finding them to be not quite up to standard

[GrenAcid]

@up
You are unlucky, my brides eat marines...maybe cuz I dont give succubus whips but agonizer(its better to have 6attack wounding on 4+ that 5+)

As for Tau, unleas you are new with DE you should know that blu-face are rly good against DE.

[w7west]

Wyches do much better coming out of a webway. They are just too expensive to stick in raiders, since one missile will wipe 230+ points off the board. Wyches are not a killing unit. They can certainly kill weak troops by sweeping advance, or slowly grind down a tac squad over 3 turns, but that is not a good use of your points. Wyches can and should be thrown at the biggest, baddest, point sinking, power weapon toting, 2+ save squad they can find (assault termies are ideal targets).

They key thing to remember about wyches is that they will do just as good against 50 point crazy termies as they will against a scout. Also it is the agonizer that does the killing, not the str 3 attacks. Try using smaller squads coming from a webway. Usually 7 wyches is more than enough to accomplish what they need to do since the agonizer is the only thing killing stuff anyway. Also, new wyche weapons are hardly worth 10 pts, and certainly not good enough to warrant automatically bringing 10 guys if you are in a raider. Seriously it is a huge waste of points. Half of the squad dies when their raider gets hit by rain.

These are a few lessons I learned playing with dark eldar back in the day (referred to by vets as the glory days). So much has changed.. but wyches still occupy a similar niche although they are not as good at it as they once were.

[Drew da Destroya]

I keep laughing at all the new DE players who are trying to use Wyches to kill things. They aren't a killy-assault unit (although Bloodbrides can do alright), they're a tarpit unit. One of the best tarpit units in the Galaxy, in fact.

[Dingareth]

Drew, as he so eloquently put it, is right on this one. They're great at holding up units, and whittling them down. Now with the right drugs... That story changes, but a 4++/4+ is about as good as a Dark Eldar player can ask for.

[DrBored]

Actually, if I was going to use a Webway list, I would throw maxed out Wych squads onto the table with 3 Shardnets. That way they can be the great tarpit, but also, after those 3-4 assault phases, will still have enough models to go on and contest or clear out an objective. 7 Wyches will fail enough saves against Assault Terminators to die real fast, but a squad of 15 with Shardnets will weather a whole heck of a lot more, and with Webway Portals placed at least 24" up on the board, there's very little that would be out of their range when they come in.

In fact, if I was using a Webway list, my troops would be almost exclusively Wyches, with maybe some Wracks, and maybe one or two of the Wych squads would have Haywire Grenades so they don't end up tarpitting against another tarpitter (Dreadnoughts or other walkers, for example).

[Sorrowshard]

Here are some thoughts about some perceived failings of the book

I have been playing DE hard since before the book came out, I only have a few criticisms of what I consider to be a genuinely balanced book with plenty of good options, at this stage writing a list is very difficult , especially at lower points partially due to the fact that you have some hard choices to make.

Lances- Dear lord they overpriced to the tune of over twice a missile launcher whils essentially doing the same thing most of the time ..with shorter range , consider also that its the ONLY source of long ranged AT (include the void lance)

They seem very all or nothing , it seems every time I shoot av 14 it immediately explodes, but shooting av 11-12 takes tens of lance shots , recent examples that spring to mind , 22 lances to kill a predator , 17 to completely cripple a vendetta and only last night it took around 12 shots or more to get a single result on the chart vs a chimera, Almost every game I have some trouble with AT , the current 1750 I'm testing out has 30 lances in it , I know without a shadow of doubt that it will really struggle with razor/chim spam , and due to the lack of available melta its about as AT heavy as its going to get at that points level ......

In light of the comments about the studio taking the opportunity to shift the meta a little this could be achieved by making dark lances and void lances AP1 (not blasters and pistols), it would also close the gulf in terms of, I shoot their tanks and bounce with my uber alien mystic tech dark matter gun, their shooting back with all but the most basic weapons will almost always do something ......

Cheaper on the scourges ? wtf ? whats the point ? its a jump pack unit with carbines , why on earth would you give them a gun that stops them moving if you wish to shoot and will also see s bunch of expensive shots wasted....

Honestly would not change a single thing in the book on the lance price, availability nothing, the simplist measure to shift the meta a bit and give DE some viability top teir would be to give them 'some' AP 1 access , I dont understand gw's fetish for making xenos suck at killing tanks at range (and now in CC)....

Other pet hate is the void raven , the bomb (singular) is suck incarnate , the bomber cant even move like a bomber and drop it , not to mention that its frankly Meh , and reeks terribly of late stage editorial nerf ,read the fluff , then look at the stats , nerfbat ?

The raven annoys me tremendously , woo, two lascannons , big ...deal , (yes I know its a lance , how useful is hat honestly vs most of the stuff we will have to crack (av 11-12) especially when our opponents most basic and proliferate heavy weapons penetrate our vehicles on equal or better scores , needs ap one again, but its got pie plates ? well yeah , they are real handy when everyone is still meched up because my lances failed to actually open anything again ....

Its just ridiculous that the much hyped superior ,most advanced almost mystical technology of the DE is so ****, even a giant antimatter beam of DE manufacture is just barely better than a lascannon , and cannot compare to a railgun , oh, and its on a near 200 point platform made of wet paper , fail much ?

Its beaten in just about every conceivable fashion by a storm raven , yup those super advanced alien flyers cant even drop a weak bomb when going fast , but a derp raven can shoot one of its equally powerful/more powerful/ more accurate guns whilst claiming cover..... *nerd rage*

The book is good , but it feels like what we have ended up with had the breaks on and we have ended up with something a bit short of what maybe Jes and kelly wanted to put out. I think the bean counters have got involved to avoid the Imperial lead whine fest that would no doubt ensue if the DE were truly equal even superior in some aspects as you might rightly argue they should be.

The lack of unit upgrade characters is annoying and frankly strange, some of the special characters are so bad its embarrassing , decapitator ? Drazhar ? lelith , master of arena fights one on one combat monster, her rules make her only good for killing geq units , wtf ?

Agin looks like they are trying to avoid angering a certain group of people who get a new and more powerful book every six months or so anyway .....

Codex creep died with DE , some would say it stalled and is around equal with BA ,Currently I think they are if anything weaker .

Ofc the greyknights book will>BA and DE so your usual program of creep will resume after this brief interlude

DE aint the big intergalactic FU that nids seem to feel they got , but having played with them a fair bit now im not convinced they are quite how they should/could have been. and the faq could easily dilute the good stuff further....

There are more issues I have, but these are the main ones.

[GrenAcid]

@UP
I would agree with most of your post, but if you rly expected that xeno book gonna be better than SM/IG you`re naive at leats.
Your examples btw are proof you need to change dices....
And seriously whats go amazing in character upgrades for units?? wtf is that for??....IC should be better...but..emm...i didnt play any of them besides Uriel and I will not change it.

We just have to think harder(as always) and play better(as always), ofc there are many things that are way off from what you expect to be(new flyers) but hey we have moste awesome models so far in wh40k I can live with being little nerf, for 8 years I played with rly old codex and rly ugly models.

I think guys from GW should make it better to earn more(DE are still not so popular) but im little glad about it, there arent many DE players so I can suprise my opponent who knows only how to fight MEQ.

Hope faq gonna give us some sustice(flyers).

[Sorrowshard]

I actually suggested some aspects of DE arguably should be better than anything the imperium can offer.

Does not matter what dice I use, I just seem to have poor luck with lances , though I pass too many flicker field saves it seems .

I think the razor wing is fine for what it is, its just the voidraven falls horribly short of its fluff , its hard to equate what you are pushing round the table with what its supposed to represent, you are going to be luck to ever kill a single thing with the void mine ....

[w7west]

Sorrow I definitely agree with the point that lances should have been changed to ap1 to justify taking them from 5/10 points to 25 points. We got some extremely potent infantry killing units (venoms are just insane. 5 venoms is all the antiinfantry required at 1500 pt for example.) but our antitank is actually pretty bad.

Focusing all of the lances on one tank, be it a russ, land raider, chimera, hell even a rhino, will give you your best shot at actually knocking something out or blowing off the main weapon. I have tried reavers with heat lances but the str6 really hurts if you cannot get rear armor. Even with two dice to pen you have the same chances as melta against a land raider. And yes, it does take around 12 lance shots for me to put serious damage into a transport which kind of sucks but probably wont be changing for another 12 years.

Now with all of this QQ being said, there are some ways I have found work very well against certain mech heavy lists:

-against mech guard: nightshields are really great here. We can wolf pack one flank at 30-36" and focus fire while recieving very little return fire. If you can immobilize the valks in the first couple turns you are in a good spot.

-against parking lot armies (wolfs, ig, etc) razorwing flocks coming out of webway portals and haywire wyches coming out of portals are both much more effective at engaging multiple armored targets than 30+ lances would be. Great way to punish players for moving 6" or less.

-deepstriking trueborn with blasters in venoms with duke: These guys can disembark and thanks to the smaller size on the venoms have a decent chance at not flying into a tree on deepstrike. Getting 4 str 8 shots on rear armor can at least put one pen on a vehicle when you absolutely need to stop something. Not the greatest move but in 2k pt games you can afford one or two of these suicide squads.

-Haywire blasters: Now these things on scourges is a huge points investment. We have had pretty good success with them. The key is to just forget about how many points you sunk into this squad and take them anyway since haywire blasters are the most reliable antitank in our new dex. They also work very well when combined with razorwings and haywire wyches coming out of portals since the haywire blasters usually will be stopping a vehicle from moving.
- that being said, talos with twl haywire and chainflails has been used recently instead of a third ravager. Honestly I don't miss having 3 more lances too much since usually my ravagers are only glancing stuff or occasionaly blow a weapon off. I think they did blow up a viper one time though. Back to the talos though, this thing is great as it absorbs quite a few shots and twl haywire is getting results almost every turn of the game. Launch this guy out of a webway and he can be the best antitank in the book when he assaults.

It's still a new book, and although I completely agree lances should be ap1 to justify 25pts and make them viable antitank, there are many new ways to take on antitank that weren't here in the old book. I guess GW didn't want us to have an easy army to play. The lack of good melta and lascannon weaponry means we must work much harder to bring down tanks, although I have had a few games when the webways worked correctly where I was pretty amazed at razorwings ability to shred multiple vehicles (2 x 8razorwing, 4 beastmaster squads wrecked 3 chimeras immobilized and weapon destroyed a russ in one charge( this was without fc ))

[ColonelElibas]

To be honest, most of the lists I've seen people running around my GW don't have alot of Dark Lances, instead replacing them with Disintegrator Cannons (I think thats what their called) and leaving the vehicle crushing to Hawire grenades and other nasty units.

[DrLove42]

I agree with some stuff you said, but remember Craftworlder are still paying 40pts for a lance....

Saying DL are only good against heavy armour not light is an insult to both the mathhammer and maths itself...but AP1 would be nice!

As for lances only killing heavy stuff i've killed 3 russes and 3 chimeras in turn 1 with 6 raiders before. And last game with my Tau it took 13 railgun shots to damage a open topped ork trukk....and even then all i got was a weapon destroyed :(

[Mandor]

I agree with some stuff you said, but remember Craftworlder are still paying 40pts for a lance....

Saying DL are only good against heavy armour not light is an insult to both the mathhammer and maths itself...but AP1 would be nice!

As for lances only killing heavy stuff i've killed 3 russes and 3 chimeras in turn 1 with 6 raiders before. And last game with my Tau it took 13 railgun shots to damage a open topped ork trukk....and even then all i got was a weapon destroyed :(

DL versus armour 12, not open-topped, the only desired result is destroyed - wrecked, or destroyed - explode:
Hit: 2/3
Penetrate: 1/3
Desired Result: 1/3

Per lance: 2/27 chance of desired result, or about 7.5% per shot.

Now for IG melta in melta range versus armour 12, same desired result:
Hit: 1/2
Glance: 1/12
Penetrate: 5/6
Desired Result on Glance: 1/6
Desired Result on Penetrate: 1/2

Per melta: 1/144 + 5/24, or about 21,5% per shot.

[GrenAcid]

@up
Oh you just forgot about...emm...12" range of melta?...compare to...emm 36"

Sory but I have to say somthing rude, If you have 30 lances in a list and you still struggle with destroying tanks, you playing wrong army.

I was doing ok with less then 14 and I will. Its a new dex, stop thinking its the same army as for last 12 years, dont go with scheme, maybe days of cark lance death are over- never though about that huh?

[Mandor]

@up
Oh you just forgot about...emm...12" range of melta?...compare to...emm 36"

Sory but I have to say somthing rude, If you have 30 lances in a list and you still struggle with destroying tanks, you playing wrong army.

I was doing ok with less then 14 and I will. Its a new dex, stop thinking its the same army as for last 12 years, dont go with scheme, maybe days of cark lance death are over- never though about that huh?

Except that... emmm... you can take three meltas in a scoring unit, for less points than we can take one, put them in a Vendetta and destroy 2 vehicles turn one, almost guaranteed? Dark Eldar AT is crap compared to Imperial armies. This has been stated over and over by multiple people in this thread. The fact that we can take a lot of them has been the one bonus we had for twelve years and guess what, that has been nerfed in the new Codex. And at a time that Mech reigns supreme.

[Sorrowshard]

+1 Mandor :D

Dude , its ok to disagree, this is a discussion forum after all,intelligent debate is a GOOD thing, but there is no need to state your intended rudeness. I was merely sharing some thoughts , as others seem to be supporting some of my findings it does indeed seem to show that there perhaps is a (deliberate ?) deficiency in the book.

Its important to note that I am winning games just fine, its just an uphill struggle vs armour spam to the point where tourney play will be an outright gamble less a matter of my personal skill. My main complaint is that the dark lances are NOT good enough when they should be. I only say this because alternate methods of dealing with armor are so limited elsewhere in the army...

The maths the other guy shows is fine except you have to consider 50 percent of your lance hits on av 12 will do nothing before you ever roll on the damage chart , this does not also include the prolific cover on 5th, essentially the DE army gets easily penetrated and shot with nothing but melta weapons (+1 open topped) melta is almost a guaranteed kill vs DE , whereas some games my dark lances just dont work at all really , others they do fine, its the unreliability thats a problem , melta is reliable , well, at least str 8 melta is ....

On the subject of maths , the chances of a melta doing 'something' significant are much much higher and melta is cheaper than blasters/lances ?!

How on earth is there a problem with my playstyle when I can still win games with DE even when its taking 10-20 lance shots to neutralise some vehicles .... I can assure you my lists are written for 5th , I have never played DE before now so Im not even too sure what you mean about the older book, I have been playing a 5th edition book against 5th edition books , with a build I feel 'should' counter or at least offer a decent chance against modern lists on a tourney level.

They struggle with mech, which is either a simple mistake by GW, as they had the opportunity to tweak the meta with DE very simply by changing one number in the book by one point. or as likely, its a deliberate thing to reinforce the mech message and keep a certain demographic happy ..... the anti mech in the book is so obviously deliberately tuned down I question the thinking behind it. I suspect, perhaps at some stage the lances were indeed made more powerful during testing, so the rest of the AT is written to reflect that but the lances were changed back late stage (bean counters I suspect), it just makes no sense as DE was a gamble for Gw, Jes had to fight to do them, and alot of people are going to be frustrated with the weak AT. It was always going to be a fragile hard to play army but what is a glass hammer army without the 'hammer' ?,

I played and still play eldar so Im not really the type to jump bandwagons regardless how poop a book is, and just to be clear, the DE are not poop but if GW wanted them to sell well and have subsequent waves of release sell equally as well I think they may have dropped the baby ... not hard enough to kill it ,lets just say it has a little trouble tying its shoe laces sometimes ...

[w7west]

I was following Fritz blog for a while before our new dex came out and he had hinted very strongly that lances were going to be ap1. From the point cost and the reduction of availability to most squads, it seems this book originally was written with ap1 in mind. When playtesting it is likely that mech guard got raped turn 1/2 and thus it was nerfed.

[Dingareth]

Except that... emmm... you can take three meltas in a scoring unit, for less points than we can take one, put them in a Vendetta and destroy 2 vehicles turn one, almost guaranteed? Dark Eldar AT is crap compared to Imperial armies. This has been stated over and over by multiple people in this thread. The fact that we can take a lot of them has been the one bonus we had for twelve years and guess what, that has been nerfed in the new Codex. And at a time that Mech reigns supreme.

Yeah, switching from Guard to DEldar I've found while that I could count on my Meltavets to destroy any target, I now need Trueborn or Ravagers just to suppress a target- Raider Dark Lances just don't do it unless you're bringing 4+ to bear on one target.

[DarkLink]

When playtesting it is likely that mech guard got raped turn 1/2 and thus it was nerfed.

I seriously doubt that.

[GrenAcid]

Except that... emmm... you can take three meltas in a scoring unit, for less points than we can take one, put them in a Vendetta and destroy 2 vehicles turn one, almost guaranteed? Dark Eldar AT is crap compared to Imperial armies. This has been stated over and over by multiple people in this thread. The fact that we can take a lot of them has been the one bonus we had for twelve years and guess what, that has been nerfed in the new Codex. And at a time that Mech reigns supreme.

Play IG, and stop crying.

@Sorrowshard
Point taken, and I understand what you saying, fair with me. I havent play on bigger points than 1.2k and as for me is ok, and as for DE...we have options to do somthing from distance we`re not IG to blow everything from distance, somtimes you have to grab haywire granade and blatster and go close.
As for math and compering melta to lance your silly, two diffrent kind of weapons, on two diffrent kind of armies.

Have you seen Buffos battle reports?...IMO good piece of usefull info, lots of hints.(in his list on 1.5k he have 9 Dlances, and 3 blasters...thats all for AT in there, and yet he won(take that Mandor))

GW are well know to not following common sence.
And at last, mate if you ever thought that xeno can be better that imperium you have miss all signs from cover of rulebook, fluff to BL books......
PS.sory if I was rly rude to ya ;)

[Xas]

Except that... emmm... you can take three meltas in a scoring unit, for less points than we can take one, put them in a Vendetta and destroy 2 vehicles turn one, almost guaranteed? Dark Eldar AT is crap compared to Imperial armies. This has been stated over and over by multiple people in this thread. The fact that we can take a lot of them has been the one bonus we had for twelve years and guess what, that has been nerfed in the new Codex. And at a time that Mech reigns supreme.

and against DE this will allmost allways be a bad trade as you put yourself in a very fulnerably position by positioning your melta within 6" of a DE vehicle and therefore the vendetta within 9" of said vehicle.

when every single unit in the DE codex can kill the 10 veterans within a few rounds of CC (usually it is on the charge) we dont have to argue that this unit is going to be killed.

the vendetta has to move 6" or less if it wants to shoot 3 laskannons to "gurantee a kill" therefore gets hit on 4+ in melee and has NO cover. again allmost every single unit in the DE dex will kill that as well (reavers /w heat lances have the same chance as s8 melta vs landraiders and all "know" that melta kills all so...; grotesquen with a bucket of s5-7attacks, haywire grenades, taloi as well as all the dark lances you can now even jump into the vendettas rear if you want.


what I DO think is that the void mine is a joke but I still love the bomber (cause I love the special missiles which are relativel cheaper on it than the other plane). to be usefull for something other than punishing silly deepstriking terminators the mine would either need to do serious damage (as in s10 ap1 ordnance, lance, d6 hits or straight remove from play if hit on non-vehicles/ d6 penns with +1 on vehicles) or not be counted as a weapon (so you can use it when going 36" after youve been shaken).

[Sorrowshard]

@Sorrowshard
Point taken, and I understand what you saying, fair with me. I havent play on bigger points than 1.2k and as for me is ok, and as for DE...we have options to do somthing from distance we`re not IG to blow everything from distance, somtimes you have to grab haywire granade and blatster and go close.

You really need to play over 1500 best around 1750 -2k against some really solid modern builds, then you will understand.

As for math and compering melta to lance your silly, two diffrent kind of weapons, on two diffrent kind of armies.

You indicate that de need to go close "with a blaster" to deal with armour , does that mean you actually agree that blasters are directly comparable to melta guns , I think they are,very much so and they perform the same function , except one works reliably .....seems a bit stupid of gw to give an army 'limited' ranged AT weapons then give them weak close ranged AT too ? just sayin ...

Have you seen Buffos battle reports?...IMO good piece of usefull info, lots of hints.(in his list on 1.5k he have 9 Dlances, and 3 blasters...thats all for AT in there, and yet he won(take that Mandor))

Seen a few , none seem to be with competitive lists or particularly good opponents. he himself has stated that he does not write or play heavy lists.(at least I think it was him

GW are well know to not following common sense.

we agree here , seems it only gets thrown out the window when writing Imperial books mind ...

And at last, mate if you ever thought that xeno can be better that imperium you have missed all signs from cover of rulebooks, and fluff to BL books......

PS.sorry if I was rly rude to ya

Is ok Just wanted to keep the convo objective ;)


Against DE this will allmost allways be a bad trade as you put yourself in a very fulnerably position by positioning your melta within 6" of a DE vehicle and therefore the vendetta within 9" of said vehicle.

Not really, the detta can come on as a flanker , even 6" is plenty , hose a transport , drop the vets who with +2 on the chart , well you do the maths, two vehicles down and fairly strong possibility of at least one exploded ie. injured unit. its hardly certain the vendetta is going to die It took me 15 lance shots recently to finally down one .... and the vets cost you how much ? ....

when every single unit in the DE codex can kill the 10 veterans within a few rounds of CC (usually it is on the charge) we dont have to argue that this unit is going to be killed.

nope, and who cares ? you just nuked something/s probably mauled the squishy insides and then tied up some shooting or CC as the vets HAVE to be dealt with. and they costed how much ? ...


The vendetta has to move 6" or less if it wants to shoot 3 laskannons to "gurantee a kill" therefore gets hit on 4+ in melee and has NO cover. again allmost every single unit in the DE dex will kill that as well (reavers /w heat lances have the same chance as s8 melta vs landraiders and all "know" that melta kills all so...; grotesquen with a bucket of s5-7attacks, haywire grenades, taloi as well as all the dark lances you can now even jump into the vendettas rear if you want.

yes the melta lance is fine vs av 14 , as are lances , but its actually worse vs every other armour band, does not wound most mc's on 2's and cause instant death to most multi wound things .....

Haywire performance is highly erratic, its nice when it works , but I wont be making any bets (bit like lances really) ...

What I DO think is that the void mine is a joke but I still love the bomber (cause I love the special missiles which are relativel cheaper on it than the other plane). to be usefull for something other than punishing silly deepstriking terminators the mine would either need to do serious damage (as in s10 ap1 ordnance, lance, d6 hits or straight remove from play if hit on non-vehicles/ d6 penns with +1 on vehicles) or not be counted as a weapon (so you can use it when going 36" after youve been shaken).

Yup we agree on the mine for sure , until the implosion missiles are Faq'd to ignore cover (wont happen), dont expect to see anyone use them either , monstrously overpriced. the mine is supposed to tear a hole in the galaxy or something , you dont want to be there when it goes down , except if you ar touching a rock or near a tree your likely going to be fine ..... and a vehicle hit by this doomsday device only has a very low percent chance of dying , which makes the void mine less lethal than even a simple melta gun and no more dangerous than a relatively unremarkable plasma cannon to infantry... :confused:

[somerandomdude]

I don't have a problem with most of your points Sorrow, and some things I agree with. I would like to say that I look at Blasters as "mid-range" as opposed to close range. Some people don't play mid-range games and that's fine, but there's a large difference in my opinion between getting 6 inches from an enemy to blow up a vehicle, and getting 18 inches away. A multi-melta is comparable, but the move-and-shoot options for MMs are limited, especially compared to a blaster.

Is a blaster any better than a meltagun for taking things out close range? Absolutely not, but there is less risk involved.


Haywire performance is highly erratic, its nice when it works , but I wont be making any bets (bit like lances really) ...

I'm not really sure what this comment means. Are you suggesting that Haywire Blasters won't always get a result, or that they won't always get a destroyed result?

These things are like autocannons for an imperial army, but a lot more reliable. Autocannons are nice when they penetrate, but that's not what I use them for primarily - I use them just to get a roll on the damage chart.

83% of every Haywire Blaster hit gives me a roll on the damage chart. In fact, if I could take HB on Kabalite Warriors, I'd be a pretty happy man. Or, since they took Blasters away from Wyches, they could've give them HB instead.

I agree that Dark Lances/Blasters are not as powerful as GW thinks they are. I'm not planning on defending Dark Lances at all, really. But Blasters I feel fill a role that few armies have - the ability to move and shoot from a distance that keeps your fragile bodies safe. Still could be cheaper, but I think they are nice weapons. Off the top of my head the meltagun is the only other S8 weapon I can think of that is Assault, and it's 6 inches shorter (even though it is AP 1).

[DarkLink]

I'm not really sure what this comment means. Are you suggesting that Haywire Blasters won't always get a result, or that they won't always get a destroyed result?


I think he's referring to haywire grenades specifically. Grenades can be pretty hit or miss against vehicles, as you only get one attack each and it's easy for the opponent to make you need a 4 or 6+ to hit.

[Mandor]

the vendetta has to move 6" or less if it wants to shoot 3 laskannons to "gurantee a kill" therefore gets hit on 4+ in melee and has NO cover. again allmost every single unit in the DE dex will kill that as well (reavers /w heat lances have the same chance as s8 melta vs landraiders and all "know" that melta kills all so...; grotesquen with a bucket of s5-7attacks, haywire grenades, taloi as well as all the dark lances you can now even jump into the vendettas rear if you want.

Actually, the Vendetta can move 30" and still fire all three weapons. Or did you conveniently forget the free scout move it gets at the start of the game? That, plus Vets and the outflanking/DSing mentioned above, grants the IG the best antitank platform in game, bar none. And why are you afraid of not having a cover save on the Vendetta? Compared to an upgraded Ravager, it has better weapons, better armour, scout+outflank, deepstrike, extra armour, has vets inside you can even deploy when moving flat out, is in the FA slot and still costs only more 5 points.

Heat Lances are a gimmick, especially on bikes. You need to be within 9" to do anything worthwile, which means you'll be within 15" of the enemy next turn without the 3+ turboboost cover save. Unless you have a table covered with terrain, that means all your bikes are dead next turn. And even with those two or three Heat Lance shots, you are not guaranteed to penetrate, as GW has deemed the "superior" DE melta weaponry only strength 6.

If you manage to get in assault with Grotesques, Taloi or Wyches with Haywire Grenades, you do have a solid chance to get a vehicle down. The exploding vehicle or the following turn will see your Wyches dead though and the Talos/Grotesques wide open to enemy fire, as they are not in assault anymore.

I'm not saying DE are hopeless, not at all. The new Codex is excellent and pretty well balanced overall. However, even with the new goodies, Dark Eldar AT took a turn for the worse at a time when transports (and by extension IG) own 40k.

[DarkLink]

That's not a 30" move, though. That's a 24" scout move, and a 6" move in the first turn. Meaning everything that Xas said still applies.

Plus, you're acting as if a vendetta+vets will automatically kill 2 vehicles instantly every single game they will ever be used in. You ever heard of reserves?

[somerandomdude]

I think he's referring to haywire grenades specifically. Grenades can be pretty hit or miss against vehicles, as you only get one attack each and it's easy for the opponent to make you need a 4 or 6+ to hit.

Good point, I misread his quote and forgot they were talking about close combat at the time.

[Xas]

guys you ARE NOT GETTING IT!

I'm not saying that the vets arent going to kill 2 DE vehicles.

I'm saying that it is a BAD TRADE.

a squad of veterans with only 3 meltaguns and a vendetta cost at least 230 points.
the vehicles you are going to kill cost between 60 and 80 points with the veterans and up to 125 points with the vendetta unless your oponent is an idiot and lets you scout your vendetta within meltarange for the vets to their ravagers (the V like everyone else has to stay 12" away from enemy units when scouting AND only can move 6" before firing/disembarking if it wants all its lascannons so your veterans are still somewhere between 6 and 4" away from the outermost vehicle of the DE ball and with a 6" range on meltas after nightfields there is zero chance that a ravager is in range).

so say all works perfect for you and the DE doesnt happily manage a crucial 5++ or two you killed 205 points. say you even net an explosion and kill 3-4 guys off a 10 man kabalite squad.

in return the warriors are going to kill your vets. without a big (and generally useles) investment for plate armor and/or a power weapon for the searge or insane luck your squad is going to get mauled by the 6-7 remaining kabalytes (ws4 and I5 and the bonus attacks for the charge is enough it takes to kill you over the course of the battle).

for the vendetta the usualy response will be to move the reavers within heat lance range and disembark grotesquen to be shure if he doesnt want to take the same gamble on killing the vendetta you take on killing the raider (see bellow). with plenty of movement speed to play around the DE player can ensure at least cover for the units in question (other than the poor raider from the grotesquen but a 5++ is allmost as good) or even be partially out of sight if your vendetta is forced to land by damage results (wrecked, immobilized). the grotesquen themselves really do not care for anything you can trow at them. compared to all the other DE stuff your fire is wasted (t5 3wounds FNP to start and only 35 a pop. thanks to the small footprint of the unit even a manticore is better used to shoot something else even though it instakills and negates FNP). big footprint/good spred and the mentioned cover save will also mean that the reavers are an unattractive target as well.

after all is said and done the DE player has a damaged warrior squad with a pain token that can go do what it wants for the rest of the game as they still score and will more likely than not have the splinter cannon they were baught for.

so the cost/gain is as follows:

cost: 230 points
gain: 205 points, 2 squads busy for 1 turn (grotesquen&reavers), 1 squad busy for 1-3 turns (kabalites)

certainly not a bad move but not as game-winning as the same strategy might be against a space marine player where you kill a landraider (250+ points) and strand an important unit in the open. the alternative of just staying back with your vendetta and oponeng fire is however the better one as you do not open yourself up for certain destruction.


just for funsies I did the math to kill by destroying (not including the unlikely incident that your 3 meltaguns hit, the invul is failed and then you score 3 immobilized/weapon destroyed to in sum wreck the raider).
the chance per bs4 s8 ap1 (no 2d6 thanks to nightfields) against av10 open topped 5++ is stunningly only 22,22%!
with 3 of those guns the chance that your meltasquad kills the raider are: 53%

the chances to kill a landraider with meltaguns within melta-range are as following:
1 melta: 24%
3 melta: 56%

incidentally these are the same numbers for killing anything AV12+ with heat lances so a squad of 9 reavers have BETTER chances to wreck anything as the allmighty trimeltavets have to wreck a simple raider...

and lastly for funsies the chance to absolutely fail (in do nothing) is as follows:
meltagun vs NS/FF raider: 63%
squad of 3: 25%

meltaguns/heat lances vs AV14: 52%
squad of 3: 14%

the reason why the Raider has a significantly higher chance of beeing unscattered compared to the AV14 normal vehicle is the 5++ Flickerfield save. each shot only has a smaller than 50% (4/9) chance to HIT and get PAST the SAVE where it only has to hit against the common AV14 vehicle.

[GrenAcid]

@Up
Thank you very much, now everybody Hail to FLICKERFIELD!! and Prise the NIGHTSHIELD!! we won:D;)

[Sorrowshard]

Im pretty sure, no wait... I did actually already explain why it was not in fact a bad trade in the slightest. The Detta can just roll in and fry anything it likes for no danger, its going to be almost impossible barring lucky reserve rolls for the DE player to do jack about it , and the vets will just melt anything thats within range of the board edge, the threat alone may force the DE to bunch up in the middle of the table, BTW not every DE vehicle i going to have both FF and NF the base cost is too high , as FF are more useful all the time (your stats support this) you can expect them in favor, but I really only expect NF's on heavy support and important transports , not that it will help at all vs anything with a good range ,lascannons......

Lol, points have not been a factor since 5th came around, the guard book put an end to that as whatever units you have which are 'expensive' are flip-sided by the insane undercosting elswhere. yeah , your vets might get chewed if you dont support them , maybe by shooting something at the kabalites that dropped out in your scenario but the rest of your army is so prolific its not like its a big deal , melta vets only work once you can always hope they will be allowed to live and kill something , and should work with what you have to ensure that , but they are essentially a suicide 'threat' unit.

And yes if you look at your own entry I would say the ephemeral loss of points , nets you a good tactical gain , even in your own biased scenario. where your vendetta fights half a DE army in a vacuum .....

Rather than go through your numbers , Ill just say roll the dice , you may be surprised but two melta hits from 3 shots will almost always penetrate , and assuming you pass one FF save its actually 33% chance not 50% but well, will assume it passes , the shot that goes through has +2 on the chart , so a 3+ to wreck etc , its even worse for the de if they happen to be flat out (where we can now safely assume 50% saved) you will wreck it on a 2+ , the explosion is unimportant really as the raider is down , mobility is screwed , footslogging DE are going to die in droves in front of a guard army without mobility , and now you have a threat in the side of the line that needs to be dealt with.

I have actually forgotten why we are debating this scenario , Im sure we were discussing the (arguably) underpowered nature of DE AT

Cheers

[DarkLink]

Rather than go through your numbers , Ill just say roll the dice , you may be surprised but two melta hits from 3 shots will almost always penetrate , and assuming you pass one FF save its actually 33% chance not 50% but well, will assume it passes , the shot that goes through has +2 on the chart , so a 3+ to wreck etc , its even worse for the de if they happen to be flat out (where we can now safely assume 50% saved) you will wreck it on a 2+ , the explosion is unimportant really as the raider is down , mobility is screwed , footslogging DE are going to die in droves in front of a guard army without mobility , and now you have a threat in the side of the line that needs to be dealt with.

First off, periods are your friends. You got forced to take a bunch of english classes in school for a reason:p.


Second off, running the numbers will give you a much, much more accurate view of what will happen than "just rolling the dice". Doing the math will tell you exactly what the odd are, or exactly what the expected outcome will be. That's how statistics work. Just rolling the dice won't give you a sufficient sample size to draw an accurate conclusion, unless you're going to spend an hour rolling dice and recording those values.


Thirdly, a single melta vet squad destroying a single raider, then getting killed next turn by the guys inside isn't going to cause the DE player to automatically lose the game. And don't try and say "DE can't ever beat guard, because all the guard player has to do is take 9 vendettas filled with melta vets". Funny thing about the actual game, is that the details matter. What's the board layout like? What are the respective armylists? Real life has a funny way of not quite working the way we think it will.

[GrenAcid]

I have actually forgotten why we are debating this scenario , Im sure we were discussing the (arguably) underpowered nature of DE AT

Dude it was like 3 pages ago.....wake up.:D

[Xas]

Im pretty sure, no wait... I did actually already explain why it was not in fact a bad trade in the slightest. The Detta can just roll in and fry anything it likes for no danger, its going to be almost impossible barring lucky reserve rolls for the DE player to do jack about it , and the vets will just melt anything thats within range of the board edge, the threat alone may force the DE to bunch up in the middle of the table, BTW not every DE vehicle i going to have both FF and NF the base cost is too high , as FF are more useful all the time (your stats support this) you can expect them in favor, but I really only expect NF's on heavy support and important transports , not that it will help at all vs anything with a good range ,lascannons......


and I showed you that the DE player doesnt NEED to do jack about the detta in the first place. just take the hit, kill it in return (which the IG player can do jack about it if he delivered meltavets as shown above).

if you are actually outflanking the detta it is even less of a problem as the DE will usually be already stuck in your army by the point you arrive (top of turn 2) AND due to the vehicles sice you can only ever fire a single TL las as you cannot fully enter the board with a 6" move.

every of my vehicles will have both fields as I see them as essential. Some players might approach the game more orky, keep them cheep and only use for first turn turboboost but thats not the kind of style that will win often. Nightshields are what allows the DE army to fight any part of the enemy army within a vacuum but only if you buy them for every vehicle.

the funny thing is that there are only a few weapons in the IG arsenal (and even less in others) that are not affected by -6" range. those are ordnance weapons (but other than basilisk and manticores the chassis is so expensive or the strenght so low the DE vehicles dont care). lascannons dont have "long" range compared to lances when you factor in the Shields. you only got 6" more range and are mostly infantry based so have 0 movement before shooting. DE are mostly vehicle based and can move 12" before shooting. therefore DE lances will get the alphastrike regardless of other factors.

there is only two vehicles that can win in the range game against DE lance platforms and those are vendettas and hydras. the first is good unless you trow it away by delivering meltavets with it and giving it as a present to your oponent. the second is crap simply because needing 4s to pen are a joke. the only tihng afraid of those are reavers.

probably the most dangerous thing IG can do against a good DE player is infantry horde with lots and lots of layers of platoons that can FRSRF the living **** out of any unit that disembarks and kills the first squad and then sits in the open with only t3 and FNP...

[Mandor]

No, the most dangerous thing an IG can do the DE, or rather to any enemy, is field a Mech army.

The Vendetta + melta vet squad is as awesome vs DE as vs anyone else, even as sacrificial unit.

You seem to think sacrificing it is a bad trade. In reality, it is the best trade you can made vs DE. With scouting and potentially getting the first drop, you force the DE the deal with them. Whether or not they kill it is totally irrelevant. That means that DE player is not advancing towards your Chimeras and other goodies, allowing them to get into range with their weapons and get in at least a turn shooting. Those Multilasers are a bitich to anything Dark Eldar.

Also, somehow you seem to think that taking out two Raiders is irrelevant. How can this be irrelevant to an army that relies on speed. I'd rather not have my Archon, Wyches, Grotesques, Wracks or Incubi footslogging into a line of Chimeras. And last time I checked the IG player gets to pick on which vehicle to fire. With 30" threat range turn 1, any DE vehicle is targettable and in range.

How do you gather that most of IG AT weaponry is not vehicle-mounted? Versus Dark Eldar, those multilasers, heavy bolters, lascannons and autocannons are all AT and widely present on vehicles. Because Dark Lances don't actually kill stuff, you might end up with three or four vehicles not being able to return fire, out of the ... ten you will be able to field easily. With those able to move 6" and still fire most of their weapons, the Night Shields are useless and even those strength 5/6 guns will down Raiders.

[Sorrowshard]

I had written a really long and well thought out post , Bols decided to log me out and eat the post in the process. :mad:

Mandor has covered some of my points, though I went into more depth so you would hopefully understand why you are so very mistaken.

Hydras are pure gold Vs De pure...gold , to the point of brokeness, I would give sensitive parts of my anatomy for a weapon that gets 4 long range shots that are TL , penetrate on 4's (not fives like lances ) get +1 on the chart and ignore flat out cover saves, for how much ? The fact you cannot see that hydras are a brilliant, brilliant tool just throws your entire argument into question.....Edit: oh yeah it has a heavy bolter too ,( FYI heavy bolters = bad day for DE)

Nightfields suck - you will see, I was playing with both, but took the NF's off all but the Ravagers , I cannot honestly say I even noticed they were gone. The entire Guard army is riddled with weps that essentially lol @ NF's

Lol, foot spam guard, lol, oh dear..... if DE got gimped AT wise they sure as hell got a serious boost in shredding infantry both in shooting and CC , I would weep tears of man joy if you bought spammy guard.

Mech is far worse as it IS a real problem for DE to deal with massed AV12, not to mention the sheer amount of multi lasers and heavy bolters that involves , throw in some Hydras ...... Not a good match up at all, even if acted out of character and tailored a list It would be a really hard match up, considering my current builds are made to cope with mech and really struggle if there are more than maybe 6 or seven vehicles in my opponents army.

All i can say to this :


running the numbers will give you a much, much more accurate view of what will happen than "just rolling the dice". Doing the math will tell you exactly what the odd are, or exactly what the expected outcome will be. That's how statistics work. Just rolling the dice won't give you a sufficient sample size to draw an accurate conclusion, unless you're going to spend an hour rolling dice and recording those values.


is this:


Real life has a funny way of not quite working the way we think it will.

Just roll the dice a few times, you will see what I mean. I just picked up three dice to check I was not mad and nuked three raiders in a row....no BS,mandor explained why loosing multiple raiders is actually much worse than just loosing 80 points , which is why talking in terms of point-for point 'trades' is plain dumb.

Please dont put words in my mouth, at no point did I even Imply that there was an auto win involved , I said there was tactical advantage in doing it and explained why.

Av12 spam guard is what you would end up with if tailoring an army to beat DE , not auto win but its a sucky match up for the DE.

I honestly just want to discuss peoples veiws on the possibility that De AT is too weak , I think it is , and have stated why , Im really not interested in what guard can and cannot do.

[Xas]

sorry, I dont take people serious who say multilasers and heavy bolters are a good anti-tank weapon VS de with nightfields.


If you dont want to get it keep your opinion and think you can shred DE just by deploying a single vendetta with meltavets and chimaeras. I really hope everyone continues to share your opinion so I can continue to roflstomp them.

Maybe my secret is useing d6 with an actualy 5 and 6 on them to roll to penetrate and damage with my lances and not rely on those cracked "morale-dice" with only 1-4 :D

[Mandor]

I honestly just want to discuss peoples veiws on the possibility that De AT is too weak , I think it is , and have stated why , Im really not interested in what guard can and cannot do.

Yeah, I got a bit carried away with Guard. But it's easiest comparing your army to the one solely on top of the 40k food chain.



sorry, I dont take people serious who say multilasers and heavy bolters are a good anti-tank weapon VS de with nightfields.


Then it might be time to actually play a few games with/vs DE. Because at this moment I'm pretty sure you haven't actually played any games at all DE vs IG. Either that or something's seriously off with your tactics.

[GrenAcid]

Then it might be time to actually play a few games with/vs DE. Because at this moment I'm pretty sure you haven't actually played any games at all DE vs IG. Either that or something's seriously off with your tactics.

No, your wrong...its somthing off with most ov IG players(no offence), firend of mine play IG with 2 leman russes:eek::eek: no vets:eek::eek: some pential legionist, ogryns....and whole bunch of things that moste IG dosnt know they have in theirs dex, and with army like that I dosnt find DE being short on AT.
If your talking about it cuz your local scene is uber-competative or you are hard turnament player I will say...swich on IG they have all AT you might dream of.

DE imo are simply, balanced army.

[Sorrowshard]

Xas , not being funny mate , but are you trolling ?

You simply HAVE to be , that statement you just made about Heavy bolters/Mutilas is , to put it mildly, incorrect.....

Have you honestly played a single game with or against De Vs mech guard ?

and I already stated there was error in considering the vendetta 'scenario' in a vacuum, so no, not a single detta , but one or several as PART of a typical guard army.

My lances penetrate about as much as they should do statistically , which is not enough

Heres some numbers for you , 20 lances , sounds like a lot yeah ? ok so it becomes 13.3 hits which vs armour 12 is somewhere around 2.5 penetrates and 4 glances , now as it stands you have just have enough to have around a 50/50 chance take out a single AV12 vehicle from all 20 !!! lance weps , if you factor the likely possibility of cover in it gets worse.

Thats why De AT sucks even if they were AP1 they would go from pretty underwhelming to 'good', enough to help and not broken at all, given the lack of any really solid AT elsewhere in the book.

[somerandomdude]

Why are there only numbers being crunched for AV12? Yeah, you might have a few targets where that's the only armor presented to you (so don't shoot at them yet), but last time I checked IG had an in-built weakness of AV10 on the sides, and DE were the most manueverable army in the game.

I've never ran my (old codex) Dark Eldar directly in front of an IG army. The only time IG are truly protected from this tactic would be in Spearhead deployment where they can set up a more effective parking lot, which is where the NS do have an effect (making their rear tanks out of range typically).

Also, to address the multilaser/heavybolter vs. NS argument in a more productive way: Tanks can move 6 inches and fire a weapon. If you're sitting at Dark Lance range when their turn starts, they'll have a weapon in range. That's what Sorrow and Mandor were talking about. NS are only really helpful against 24 and lower (Assault Cannons and Hive Guard specifically, since everything else is either glance happy or overkill) OR IG parking lots for a turn or two. Sure, they'll get about half their vehicles in range, but not the other half.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, when you have a wall of AV 12, and each and every one has a heavy bolter and a multilaser, that's a lot of fire headed downrange. Nightshields can save the DE for a turn, and protect Ravagers or whatever that hang back, but the DE are going to need to get close in order to get into the Guard lines so they will be in range eventually.

Each heavy bolter has a ~10% chance of destroying a Raider (after flickerfields), and each multilaser a ~17% chance. 4-5 Chimeras means a dead Raider per turn, and this is still completely ignoring the rest of the Guard army's anti-tank.



and I already stated there was error in considering the vendetta 'scenario' in a vacuum, so no, not a single detta , but one or several as PART of a typical guard army.


That's the point I was trying to get at there. It's not that useful to say "vendetta flys up, blows something up, then dies to the DE retaliation". How far away from the rest of the Guard army is this? Were they able to hit the Raider carrying the Archon with Incubi, or was it just a unit of Warriors? Details like that matter too much to consider that scenario in a vacuum.




Incidentally, Sorrowshard, the tone of some of your posts matches the tone of Xas' last post. You may not intend that, but if you're not careful about your wording you end up sounding rude and dismissive to anyone you disagree with. Then they do the same to you, and you keep doing it and so do they and it just goes downhill from there.

40k really isn't serious business. Seriously;):rolleyes:.

[Mandor]

No, your wrong...its somthing off with most ov IG players(no offence), firend of mine play IG with 2 leman russes:eek::eek: no vets:eek::eek: some pential legionist, ogryns....and whole bunch of things that moste IG dosnt know they have in theirs dex, and with army like that I dosnt find DE being short on AT.
If your talking about it cuz your local scene is uber-competative or you are hard turnament player I will say...swich on IG they have all AT you might dream of.

DE imo are simply, balanced army.

The fact that your friend deliberately plays IG with an underpowered army list and that you have enough AT to defeat that specific army, is hardly a reason to say DE are balanced. And the fact that IG is currently the most powerful army in a tournament scene is not a reason to switch armies and actually play it. However, it is a good reason to compare other armies to it.

With the new release, Dark Eldar have their AT nerfed. This is counterbalanced with a lot of additional options to make the army (more) fun to play and new, awesome models to peak the interest of players. Mechanized play defines this edition of 40k though and therefore Dark Eldar took a hit in that scenario with the release of the new Codex. From what is written in the fluff in the Codex, I think Phil Kelly actually had a pretty competitive army in mind, but it was nerfed pretty hard by GW before the release.

[Blackyujiro]

I don't know if i'll call DE nerfed. I think the Codex was written EXTREMELY fluff based. DE are all about inflicting pain and taking slaves. Can't do that to tanks,lol. I try to hit mech heavy armies fat, then hide, then hit again. I don't think(even mech'd up)DE can sit and trade fire with any other mech army. Now, if we can peel em out of the transports, pain city baby,lol.

[GrenAcid]

The fact that your friend deliberately plays IG with an underpowered army list and that you have enough AT to defeat that specific army, is hardly a reason to say DE are balanced. And the fact that IG is currently the most powerful army in a tournament scene is not a reason to switch armies and actually play it. However, it is a good reason to compare other armies to it.

So you basicly saying that not playing a internet-turnament-list is playing underpowered list?? To your information: NO it isnt.
Comparing whole army to one IG build is stupid....yeah DE will have problem with mecha IG, show me list that dosnt have any problem, otherwise dont do it again.


With the new release, Dark Eldar have their AT nerfed. This is counterbalanced with a lot of additional options to make the army (more) fun to play and new, awesome models to peak the interest of players. Mechanized play defines this edition of 40k though and therefore Dark Eldar took a hit in that scenario with the release of the new Codex. From what is written in the fluff in the Codex, I think Phil Kelly actually had a pretty competitive army in mind, but it was nerfed pretty hard by GW before the release.
Its not nerfed....its not Dlance spam anymore(as competitive player you must miss it:rolleyes::rolleyes: wich explain why you say its not good). As for Phil you might be right, but who care??
Those with hand up, go play IG/SW/BA:p

[w7west]

there is only two vehicles that can win in the range game against DE lance platforms and those are vendettas and hydras. the first is good unless you trow it away by delivering meltavets with it and giving it as a present to your oponent. the second is crap simply because needing 4s to pen are a joke. the only tihng afraid of those are reavers.


de pens on 5's. You were saying?

[somerandomdude]

de pens on 5's. You were saying?

DE need 3s to penetrate. Strength 8 vs. side armor 10.

[ursvamp]

I've actually never met anything with side armor 10. Examples plix?

[Mandor]

DE need 3s to penetrate. Strength 8 vs. side armor 10.

Side armour of a Vendetta is 12. You first have to outmaneuver the ten Chimeras to be able to hit their side armour 10.

[Mandor]

So you basicly saying that not playing a internet-turnament-list is playing underpowered list?? To your information: NO it isnt.
Comparing whole army to one IG build is stupid....yeah DE will have problem with mecha IG, show me list that dosnt have any problem, otherwise dont do it again.

Ehm, sorry? You just said that he takes units that some IG players don't even "know" are in the Codex. Do you think they might not take them for a reason? Comparing your army to the strongest of your opponent's, or one of tournament level, is strange? With the current meta, the new Dark Eldar codex comes up short. This is a fact.


Its not nerfed....its not Dlance spam anymore(as competitive player you must miss it:rolleyes::rolleyes: wich explain why you say its not good). As for Phil you might be right, but who care??
Those with hand up, go play IG/SW/BA:p

Wait, so our AT's not nerfed, but we can field less Dark Lances and on Warriors they are at 2,5 times the cost... and Dark Lance are our main AT weapon. Blasters went up in points (3 times old cost, more range thankfully), Heat Lances are close to useless, the Void Raven is way overpriced. How is this not nerfed?

[DarkLink]

I've actually never met anything with side armor 10. Examples plix?

Umm... anything on a chimera chassis.

[GrenAcid]

Mandor, just dont play DE cuz they are too weak for ya. Move on.

[Mandor]

Mandor, just dont play DE cuz they are too weak for ya. Move on.

You are pathetic. If you can't discuss a subject without insults, don't reply at all.

[Xas]

Xas , not being funny mate , but are you trolling ?

You simply HAVE to be , that statement you just made about Heavy bolters/Mutilas is , to put it mildly, incorrect.....

Have you honestly played a single game with or against De Vs mech guard ?



I'm not trolling, but I have the feeling that some people that whine about DE antitank are doing just that (or havent even seen a competent DE player play).

The Thing I'm really not getting is how a weapon which has smaller range than your target and is on a both slower and less agile (I can get much more raiders lined up on one of the IGs flanks due to their profile than he can get chimaeras to bear on you thanks to the box design of the chim).

Just to repeat the facts: Nightshields mean your Multilaser and Heavy Bolter has a RANGE 30". If you add your maximum move after which you can shoot ONE of them it is a total of 36". This is the range of the lances you are fighting. Therefore your margin to maneuvre (and get chimaeras to work which are further away than the one hit) is the margin of error in the DEs player's guessing of his range.

The gist of this facts is that a competent DE player can bring roughly 2-3 raiders/ravagers to bear for every chimaera hull you get.



And after all this is said and done. Tell me a point efficient way how mechguard (I assume we are speking about chimaeras, some hydras and vendettas as well as maybe 2-3 artillery tanks) is dealing with 2-3 squads of grotesquen if the DE player decides to go "all in".
by "all in" I mean that the grotesquen raiders move the full 26-36 they can go in one turn to get into your face and the heavy support uses their (dark&void) lances to stun the 1-2 s10 tanks you will most likely have (the nice thing about the two DE "fliers" is that assuming you sit on a valkyrie flying base the oponent cannot hide artillery behind chimaera hulls).

you have a full 2000 points IG mech army to service you in your mission (- the 2 artilery vehicles we assumed a DE can at least stun with ~12 lances) so its your ~1700 vs their ~900 points (including urien and a 2nd haemi to start with 3 pain tokens on both squads in 2/3 of all games).

stats of grotesquen: 4*3=12 wounds t5, FNP, one unit has urien t5 3w the other a haemi t4 2w.
the raiders are equipped with FF(5++) and the required aethersails (just ignore the -6 range as the DE will jump right on you so he doesnt need the raider alive&mobile to get to charge you the next turn).


I'm looking forward to what you come up with (so I can preper for when my locals come up with it anytime in the future) as so far this combination has been deadly to anyone without lysander/s10 thunderwolflord.

Two things that do not work so you dont waste your time:
psyker squads (grotesquen start with fearless thanks to 3 pain tokens. one from themselfes, one from urien/the haemi and d3 units with another from uriens special rule).

chimaera's shooting. do the math on how many chims you have (for simplicity assume you can see trough your own tanks) and how many damage they do to the grotesquen who will either be save inside the raider or in cover of the wrack. experience says it takes an infinite amounth of multilaser/heavy bolter shots. math says its 12 shots per wound for the multilaser and 16 for heavy bolters.

[DarkLink]

Right. It's not that DE aren't amazing at killing tanks. It's just that all this whining about how DE will never, ever beat any guard army ever under any circumstances because every guard player obviously plays Vendetta air cavalry lists is stupid.


You are pathetic. If you can't discuss a subject without insults, don't reply at all.

Dude, don't be hypocritical. Chill out.

In fact, there are several people here who seem to be getting way too worked up over this. It's an argument, on the internet, about a game. Really not that big of a deal, people.

[Commander Vimes]

Dark Eldar do have a weakness in long ranged anti-tank, especially against mass chimeras. But I think it's unfair to dismiss the Dark Eldar's anti-tank capability based solely on their inability to deal with Mech Guard at range. First, because the chimera is practically the perfect counter to the Dark Eldar with the heavy flamer to kill infantry, a multi-laser for vehicles and negating FNP, and front armor 12 making lance weapons into glorified missile launchers. The Dark Eldar should not expect to win a ranged shootout against mech guard and should plan accordingly. Heck, I can't think of a single army that wants to be in a ranged shootout with Mech Guard. The way to counter all those tightly packed chimeras is to multi-assault them, and the Dark Eldar have a two great units for that in Grotesques and Razorwing swarms, both of which can be delivered through a well placed webway portal. Now, getting that portal where it needs to go may be difficult, but the payoff of having those Str 5 Grotesques or rending Razorwing swarms running through your opponent's parking lot is worth losing 3-4 raiders ad most of their occupants in the first round.

It's also unfair to assume that Mech Guard are going to be a typical opponent. Massed Razorbacks through Wolves or Blood Angels is quite competitive and popular. The Dark Lances get a nice boost against AV11, though Razorbacks are quite good at hunting DE vehicles so this is hardly and easy fight. Blood Angles with lots of Predators and Vindicators is also quite effective, and the Dark Lances finally start benefiting from Lance against their AV13. Land Raiders, especially double land raider lists, are still quite popular especially with Blood Angels, and it's here that Dark Eldar players can laugh nastily as they kill those raiders as easily as chimeras. Against Chaos, the Dark Lances are great for insta-killing obliterators and crippling a Chaos players anti-tank, as well as picking off their Plague Marines. They're likewise great for killing off Broadside teams against the occasional Tau player you might meet.

So yes, Dark Eldar will struggle against mass Chimeras, and it would be hard to design a more effective counter to Dark Eldar, but everyone else hates Mech Guard too. A lot of people in this discussion are looking at Dark Lances in the scenario in which they are weakest, and paying little attention to the many situations where they are a strong counter for other popular competitive units and army builds.

[GrenAcid]

If you can't discuss a subject without insults, don't reply at all.

You are pathetic.

Thats an insult....2:0 for me, wanna play more in that game?

[eldargal]

I must say I've not had any more difficulty against Mech IG with Dark Eldar than I do with Eldar, which isn't to say it is easy.

[w7west]

To sum up the last 4 pages:

Mech guard is overpowered

Dark eldar anti tank is not overpowered

Confucious playing dark eldar vs a 10 yr old playing mech guard will be a close game.



Can we please move on to talk about units in the codex rather than how broken mech guard is?

I will start:

Mandrakes: With so much competition in the elite spots for dark eldar (trueborn, grotesque, incubi all amazing units) the humble mandrake is often overlooked. His stats really do not jump out as a "take me" choice. There are no fancy wargear options, and in order to get the shooting attack you will need to get these guys a token by assaulting or throwing away a haemoc into the squad during your first or second turn. Cronos can also get these guys a token, but this seems like a lot of work to make an elite squad "good" when the rest of the elite choices start the game with maximum *** kicking potential.

So why mandrake? Infiltrate along with stealth gives you the ability to set these guys 12" from an enemy unit at the beginning of the game. They also have move through cover, meaning you can deploy them right into some nice trees for a 3+ save without much decrease to speed. If you have the first turn these guys can be huge. Assaulting a long fang squad first turn before they ever fire is really good for the rest of your army. Assaulting crazy tanks with rear armor 10 before they ever move will get you some suppression glances if there are no juicy infantry to set up near.

Getting second turn with these guys is still good. It is hard to ignore the super evil looking guys sitting 12" from your long fangs just waiting to pounce. With a 3+ cover save and 5+ inv these guys can take a beating. You can even get a 2+ cover when going to ground if your opponent is dumping a bunch of firepower into them, although most of the time just drawing firepower away from your skimmers is worth the cost on these guys.

With vect, and the ability to seize on 4+, these guys can really make someone sweat. Once they know about the guaranteed first turn assault from mandrakes, they will be making a bunch of crucial decisions before they even deploy. Placing anti tank in subpar positions even when they have first turn is a great example of this. Also they will be more likely to deploy clumped together so that vulnerable squads cannot simply get owned turn one by mandrakes.


So my usefulness rating on mandrakes: 7/10
It is hard to find a spot for them since the other elite are so good, but I like to make room for one ten man squad of these guys in my balanced lists. Their ability to take heat off of your skimmers from turn 1 and the first turn assault is pretty good.

[Drew da Destroya]

Infiltrate cannot gaurantee you a first turn assault... in fact, it's very difficult. The Inflitrate rules state that if you're within line of site of an enemy unit, you have to set up more than 18" away (means assault is impossible, because even with perfect fleet and move through cover, you'll be .1" away at best). If you are not within line of site (good luck, unless you play with very large, solid terrain... woods won't help you here), then you have to set up more than 12" away... which is possible with a good/perfect fleet, depending on the size of the LOS-blocking terrain.

[DarkLink]

And just to back up Drew, Stealth has absolutely nothing to do with infiltrate. Stealth only grants a better cover save. It doesn't somehow magically allow you to infiltrate closer to your opponent.

[GrenAcid]

As sad as it may sound mandrakes besides having great minis have nothing. Using them as a fire magnet for some shooty dudes in 1-2 round is somehow valid but if opponent know them he know for sure those guys dont stand big. IMO they are the weakest elite/dex choise, maybe in troops they would have more to say but no option for that.

[somerandomdude]

Also, if an opponent has infiltrators, I doubt a SW player would set up his Long Fangs either A) without a bubblewrap or B) near LOS blocking terrain.

[BuFFo]

So why mandrake? Infiltrate along with stealth gives you the ability to set these guys 12" from an enemy unit at the beginning of the game.

This is virtually impossible in 5th edition. I doubt you can hide 5 - 10 models from line of sight from the entire enemy army to be able to set up 12".

In 4th edition this was easy, but I haven't seen it done in 5th yet.

Mandrakes - 1/10. Just bad.

[somerandomdude]

This is virtually impossible in 5th edition. I doubt you can hide 5 - 10 models from line of sight from the entire enemy army to be able to set up 12".

In 4th edition this was easy, but I haven't seen it done in 5th yet.

Mandrakes - 1/10. Just bad.

Well, you could with a 3 man squad of Mandrakes! :D

Wait...

Seriously though, I've managed to infiltrate only one unit of Chosen 12" away, and I have used Chosen a LOT.

Infiltrate is about deploying outside your deployment zone, in front of your lines. Since the DE don't really need a front line due to their mobility, this doesn't help them much. In order to use Mandrakes at all, you should build around them, maybe in a foot army, but that would be it. And in that case, I'd still fill my elites up with Grotesques/Harlies.

They can put out a decent amount of pain for 200 points (10 + Haemy) but a Trueborn squad can put out more pain from twice the distance (24 splinter shots compared to 20 balefire) with almost half the points (121) and superior mobility.

I really miss the old mandrake deployment. :(

[DrLove42]

IMO they are the weakest elite/dex choise, maybe in troops they would have more to say but no option for that.

2nd worse. Quins are pants...

[somerandomdude]

2nd worse. Quins are pants...

Huge disagreement there. You can say neither one stands up to any other elites, but between the two of them...

For +3 points you get +1 WS (huge), -1 S, +1 I and +1 A (2 CCWs). You also get a LD bump but that isn't as relevant.

You lose move through cover and gain... ignore difficult terrain.

You lose Power from Pain and gain... Furious Charge (2nd pain token reward).

You lose Stealth and Infiltrate (which was possibly counter-intuitive since you would want to get a Haemy to them for Baleblast) and gain... Veil of Tears as an option, making you immune to most shooting, and not an ideal target.

You start with a shooting attack instead of needing an HQ or an easy kill to get it for you, and you get an option for melta in your army (the only other spots being FA and Heavy, and heavy will probably be something else).

You also have rending as an option, and assault grenades, if you desperately need them to combat a vehicle in CC.

Mandrakes may be easier to find room for (because the Harlies need a Shadowseer pretty badly) but there is no way that the Harlies are worse than Mandrakes.

[Drew da Destroya]

It's too bad that Decapitator doesn't make Mandrakes into troops... then they'd both be useful. Instead, it's going to be hard to justify either one, since Elites and HQ are overcrowded with "awesome"... and they're merely "ok".

Also, why is the DE version of Marbo an HQ? Even from his description, he doesn't sound like a "leader".

[somerandomdude]

From the rulebook:

"A Headquarters unit might be a single heroic commander or fearsome monster."

He's legendary in the Mandrake (and DE as a whole) culture. He doesn't lead, he's merely powerful and fearsome. Plus, it's believable that a company commander would give Marbo secret orders to do his work, but no archon can really "command" Kheradruakh.

Not only that but it's easier to fit him into an HQ slot of the army than an Elite slot.

[ursvamp]

Mandrakes actually happen to be my favorite unit in 40k. since ever =/ (well, fluffwise)
I haven't had a chance to try them out since the new codex, but I used to use them alot in the old one. and considering all they gained, while staying at the same point cost, I can't imagine they won't be worth it.

But I'm not convinced they'd suck :) at all. However, not sure they won't either... Nothing but trying them for some games will be able to give revelation =)
(and I'm looking forward to be able to use the Outflank/infiltrate rule! Should be great!)

I'll most certainly miss the old deployment too. But it wasn't that surprising. it seems like GW doesn't like the idea of anything being able to get into assault without some risk.

[DarkLink]

And the only units that can go straight to assault are really expensive for what you get.

[Drew da Destroya]

From the rulebook:

"A Headquarters unit might be a single heroic commander or fearsome monster."

He's legendary in the Mandrake (and DE as a whole) culture. He doesn't lead, he's merely powerful and fearsome. Plus, it's believable that a company commander would give Marbo secret orders to do his work, but no archon can really "command" Kheradruakh.

Not only that but it's easier to fit him into an HQ slot of the army than an Elite slot.

Well played, you make several fair points here. He's still pretty unlikely to show up in many games, but I can at least understand why he's an HQ, instead of a Fast or something.

[somerandomdude]

I'm actually planning on using him in low-medium point games (1000-1500 or less) because A) if I'm playing my brother, I need a way to easily handle his Bolstered Scouts and B) I have plans in place to make a model as close to the codex art as possible, which, if I get it to work right, would look pretty sweet. :)

Honestly, I think he'd do as good a job of chopping up squads at that level as a lone Archon of similar points. And the disruption opportunity is fantastic.

[DrLove42]

. And the disruption opportunity is fantastic.

That to me is where the mandrakes and their HQ come in to being useful. Distraction, pure and simple. You put anything that close to someones line and it will cause a panic, even amongst some veteran players. Or they ignore it and can pay the consequence

If the HQ (whos names escaped me) gave his rules for entering play to a squad of mandrakes...or was an IC so he could join a unit he'd be a little more worthwhile

[ursvamp]

or was an IC so he could join a unit he'd be a little more worthwhile


That's not his style, though :cool:

[Xas]

Actually if you use proper E5 terrain setting up an infiltrate out of sight (not at the perfect 12,1" but maybe at 14 or 15) isnt THAT hard.

it only takes one of those fancy Cities of Death buildings with 2-3 closed wall sectors and your fine.

I've come to infiltrate my units less than 18" in around 1/3 to 1/2 of all the games I played with them (so far usually tyranid stealers as my mandraks arent built yet but there isnt m uch difference in terms of infiltrate).

The fortress of redemption or the temple of skulls are great terrain pieces as well to do all types of hideing.

But then I might be spoiled by playing in a shop with more than enough terrain...

[GrenAcid]

Ok how about haemonculi with hexrifles...sounds good on paper but dose it have actual use on battlefield??

I can only think one place for him...20-men strong unit of kabalite warriors with 2x lance/2x splinter cannon in cover, FnP and cover sv should hold them in place, any other suggestions?

[BuFFo]

Ok how about haemonculi with hexrifles...sounds good on paper but dose it have actual use on battlefield??

I can only think one place for him...20-men strong unit of kabalite warriors with 2x lance/2x splinter cannon in cover, FnP and cover sv should hold them in place, any other suggestions?

6 Heamonculi with Hex Rifles attached to a squad of 4 Trueborn in a Raider. That is some snipin' action right there!

[rle68]

my pick for MVP of the DE

Kabalite trueborn
8 of them held up in a building 15 inches from a tervigon 4 blasters 2 splinter cannons 2 shard carbines and unaware of my opponent Duke sliscus 3+ poison

result 1 very dead tervigon 1 pain token for them splinter cannons are the bomb for foot troops!!!!!

[GrenAcid]

Buffo....your squad is for somthing like 500pt....in a paper-thin armour of raider, sory but thats just a suiside.

[steelmage99]

I like Hex-rifles for Heamos. Gives them something to do after having given their Pain Token away to something usefull.

[w7west]

I don't normally take haemocs but when I do I don't leave home without a shattershard such a powerful tool

[Dingareth]

I like Hex-rifles for Heamos. Gives them something to do after having given their Pain Token away to something usefull.

That;s what Liquefier Guns are for!

[BuFFo]

Buffo....your squad is for somthing like 500pt

Its like 430.


....in a paper-thin armour of raider

12 years of DE players taking the 'paper thin' raider with no problems. I don't see any new revelations about this.


sory but thats just a suiside.

I was just making a fun unit.

You can still have fun in this game, right?

Peace!

[Drew da Destroya]

I was just making a fun unit.

You can still have fun in this game, right?

Peace!

Warhammrs r srs biznis. Nofun.

War!

[thecactusman17]

My twin Archons have been doing great. Archons only really need two pieces of gear: Agnoizers and Shadowfield. For 110 points you get a 6-attack maniacal ******* who wounds enemies on a 4+ regardless of toughness AND has a 2+ invulnerable save for ast least the first several turns. Mix him up with another good CC unit and he's amazing. Mix them with Kiss-bearing Harlequins and you have an amazing unit that will never, ever lose a round of close combat. Ever. To anyone.

Harlequins + FNP = OMGWTFBULLSH!T

[DrLove42]

Uh....Harlequins can't get FNP....

[somerandomdude]

Uh....Harlequins can't get FNP....

Debatable. If any IC with the PfP special rule and a single pain token is attached, then there certainly is reason to believe they benefit. The rule states that if a unit has a token, the entire unit benefits from it.

[GrenAcid]

Warhammrs r srs biznis. Nofun.

War!
LMAO....

@Buffo
I know I know...just sayin.

@somerandomdude
Your right.

Do you ever consider taking clone field or jin blade??....Clone sounds good, its 10pt less and you can point attacks that gonna miss, annoying and mean:D
Jin blade on the other hand...can wreck my Archon in wrong moment....and its just me or with 2 jin blades archon can swing like 10A?? 4A (base)+4A(dual jin)+1A (dual cc weapon)+1A(charge)...tell me we can do it pliz...

[somerandomdude]

Djinn Blade is under the entry that says "take any of the following." I believe you should only be able to take one Djinn, not two. Otherwise, if two were allowed, then 30 Djinn Blades would be allowed.

However, you forgot about Combat Drugs, which means that an Archon has the possibility of having 9 attacks (4 base + 1 CCW + 1 Combat Drugs + 1 charging + 2 Djinn Blade).

[Dingareth]

Djinn Blade is under the entry that says "take any of the following." I believe you should only be able to take one Djinn, not two. Otherwise, if two were allowed, then 30 Djinn Blades would be allowed.

However, you forgot about Combat Drugs, which means that an Archon has the possibility of having 9 attacks (4 base + 1 CCW + 1 Combat Drugs + 1 charging + 2 Djinn Blade).

Wow. That's a great way to do 2 wounds to a Tactical Squad. Assuming you don't kill yourself that is.

[steelmage99]

That;s what Liquefier Guns are for!

Assuming of course that I prefer to put my Haemo with an agressive unit that utilises short to mid-range shooting, usually followed by an assault........which I don't.
So I'll stick to the Hex-rifles all the same.

[Brycec13]

Not a raider can be found in my army I am all venoms all day. For those who have not given venoms a try they are where the real cheese is in this codex. Other than 9 venoms the rest of my army is just antitank. 3 ravager 12 blaster trueborn, 2 dual heatlanced reavers, 4 haywire blaster scourge, 6 blaster warriors.. I think that is it. Comes in right around 2k depending on what i take for HQ but lately a simple 120pt agonizer archon works out.

But yeah hope you didn't plan on spending a lot of points on vehicles they gonna die.

I may be wrong but your over 2k
3 ravagers 315
trueborn 519
reavers 156
scourges 260
warriors 750
2000pts with no hq and base ravagers

[Pipboy]

Wow. That's a great way to do 2 wounds to a Tactical Squad. Assuming you don't kill yourself that is.

Re-rolling to wound should make that 3-4 marines, assuming they are not going to hurt you and you come with a unit of 4 Incubi, they are screw in a bad way.

PD: long lurking and no posting lol!

[newtoncain]

I'm just bummd they nerfed the beasts with the Pain token ruling.
I play nids= GW nurfs Doom (never thought it should affect units in vehicals, but a cover save, come on it is not even a shooting attack).

Now Beast do not get to use the pain tokens, the neft it just in time to release the kits and no one will want to play them.

Of coures anything that is a space marine got a pump. Auto rally(if it qualifies), move 3 inches, then act as normal to move another 6".
BTW- Can I get some SW devisators for my nids or DE or Guard?:eek:

[Archon Charybdis]

Re-rolling to wound should make that 3-4 marines, assuming they are not going to hurt you and you come with a unit of 4 Incubi, they are screw in a bad way.

If you have re-roll to wound you won't have 9 attacks. It's also not the best idea to base the effectiveness of your killy CC HQ on a 1 in 6 random chance.


Now Beast do not get to use the pain tokens, the neft it just in time to release the kits and no one will want to play them.
:

For god's sake, the sky is not falling, Beasts are still an amazing unit. They've been one of my most consistent performers when coming out of a WWP, and I've never assumed the beasts themselves got PfP. Yes, GW makes a lot of boneheaded rulings that have no basis in the RAW, like cover saves against the Doom or Marines getting rewarded with an extra 50% movement for falling back. Beasts not getting PfP is hardly one of them though.