More Grim Dark! Less Political Correct!

[Renegade]

Two things have really started to annoy me, and I don't think I am only one.

The first is the watering down of 'Grim Dark' in my 40K, from the fluff to the models. The second come from the calling of further watering this down from some quarters, where I think the worse case was someone complaining that there 10 year old could see the 'wet-nurse' and BoLS should not have links to such things again, which is probably why I have demonettes that look like the should be of Khorne, not Slaanesh.

This is a hobby of plastic and resin that is brought to life by the background, a background where one now has to retreat to BL to find any real grim dark, or older rule books and codices, and you can tell the PC lobby have attacked the models.

The first page of BL and the rule book tell you to expect dystopia, to be honest, with all the watering down, Charlie and the chocolate factory is almost as dark.

I propose a mass letter run by the community to demand that the grime darkness to be made grim dark again, not grim dark in name only must kowtow to the PC lobby, and damn well grow a pair!

Takers?

[Thiazi]

/signed

[Drew da Destroya]

Honestly, GW needs to make money, and it specifically needs to make money from a fairly young crowd (and their parents). While there are plenty of us who are old enough to appreciate grimdark, it would drive off a fair number of GW customers if the game really reflected the background.

While a cool idea, it's just not going to happen, especially in a recession. They'll leave the real grim darkness to BL (which even there is still pretty watered down), because every little Timmy knows that reading is for losers. :p

[eldargal]

I certainly wouldn't object to a little more GrimDark, though I'm not sure I agree with it having been watered down. It tends to fluctuate.

[Renegade]

Honestly, GW needs to make money, and it specifically needs to make money from a fairly young crowd (and their parents). While there are plenty of us who are old enough to appreciate grimdark, it would drive off a fair number of GW customers if the game really reflected the background.

While a cool idea, it's just not going to happen, especially in a recession. They'll leave the real grim darkness to BL (which even there is still pretty watered down), because every little Timmy knows that reading is for losers. :p

Well 'little Timmy' can go back to playing Magic or Warmachine for all I really care, the number of 'little Timmy's' in my local GW makes it a 'no go' for talking about some areas of the background. I am sure the staff wouldnt mind not being dumped on like child care workers either, they dont get paid teachers salaries to start with.

You compare the art, some of the models and fluff from a few editions ago, to now, and there were a few 'little Timmy's' back then.

[Old_Paladin]

I am sure the staff wouldnt mind... they dont get paid teachers salaries to start with.
You're right, they probably actually get paid more then many teachers.


This is really a non-issue; all the fluff is plenty dark, sadistic, violent and horrific, in both 40K and Fantasy.

The only area that has even been marginally affected is some Slaneesh stuff, and it still gets the point across very well.
If you think I'm totally off the mark here, please, show me some proof. I'd like to see where in 2nd Ed it was so graphic and I'd also like to be pointed to the sections of the Chaos/Daemons/Blood Angels/Dark Eldar codexes where everyone solves their issues with talking and hugs and candy and teddy bears.

[Defenestratus]

When it comes to political correctness - I tend to find peoples' views on it very relative. Fact of the matter is that the sniveling do-gooders the world over sit around and wait to be offended. Often times they are offended at something that they didn't even experience first hand and get a glimpse of the "offensive" content out of context. However, it makes no matter, because the sniveling do-gooders are often the loudest, most annoying voice. They tend to do things like organize boycotts, take out counter advertising, and often resort to tactics that are more objectionable than the content that they object to.

As a fan of stand up comedy, I see this kind of behavior all the time, often when it comes to ethnic jokes and radio shows.

[murrburger]

I don't really have a problem with 40K being grimdark. It's fine the way it is. If anything, it's more grimdark than before. (Anyone remember the campiness of 2nd and some of 3rd? Especially the Orks/Doomrider)

I bought the new Dark Eldar book, and it's fairly awesome. The fluff is just dark enough, and not some kind of Cthulhutech disaster. Grimdarkness for the sake of Grimdarkness is stupid.

Things are fine the way they are.

[Xas]

When the deamonettes were remade in plastic and lost much of their nude charm I was worried that GW would go down the train with all the modern PC crap.

Now, with some time to let the models grow on me (and the new dark eldar fluff beeing pure gold) I'm happy with how things are and shure that GW does 95% what they want.

TBH now I like the plastic deamonettes far more as they have more of a martial and grimdark style than the old metall ones had. To me the new ones represent the deamonettes in the state of fighting, when lure and passion is cast away to slice some troats and eat your soul the gory way.


On a site note: If some plitical correctness addict bothers you just attack them with their own weapons and fake beeing deeply offended because what you did that affected him is part of your religion as XYZ (make something up beforehand) and imply he is a religious extremest because he attacked you because of your believs. If you are in the mood you could also accuse him of racial abuse by saying you are part of some minority (whatever suits your region, in europe the "fancy" minority for this kinda trick is "jewish" because of well you know your history. IMPORTANT: dont fake to be something that can be easily verified by just looking at you).

[Drew da Destroya]

Well 'little Timmy' can go back to playing Magic or Warmachine for all I really care, the number of 'little Timmy's' in my local GW makes it a 'no go' for talking about some areas of the background. I am sure the staff wouldnt mind not being dumped on like child care workers either, they dont get paid teachers salaries to start with.

You compare the art, some of the models and fluff from a few editions ago, to now, and there were a few 'little Timmy's' back then.

From a player's perspective, yes (although it wouldn't affect me at all, since I don't play in stores). From a GW corporate perspective, no, GW would prefer that they continue to spend money on their products.

And that's why it won't change.

[Lexington]

God. "Grimdark." I have trouble imagining a more insipid, joyless concept.

[DarkLink]

Well 'little Timmy' can go back to playing Magic or Warmachine for all I really care, the number of 'little Timmy's' in my local GW makes it a 'no go' for talking about some areas of the background. I am sure the staff wouldnt mind not being dumped on like child care workers either, they dont get paid teachers salaries to start with.


With an attitude like that, I would rather go play Warmachine. It's a lot of fun, and I wouldn't have to deal with an elitist opponent.

[fuzzbuket]

i think one of the main problems is art/models now if GW applied thier talents to the creepy RT sketches for a collecters range thed make more monies :D

2 examples:

DC models : shiney, yes!, detaild :D yes creepy psycos,, no.
regular marines with red x's splashed on haistily rather than custom armour.. NO!

and art wise

look at the BA dex.. yes its nice armour wes its detailed is there skulls..no. pipes everywhere no creepy.scary. GOTHIC? no

damn someone mix giger and blanche and we shold have a party :D

[Vaktathi]

More Grimdark for sure. It'd make the setting more compelling and they could dive a bit more into stuff rather than the awkward tip-toe they do now with much of the fluff, and, at least in my experience playing in stores and clubs all up and down the west coast, the overwhelming majority of gamers are 18+, usually in college or older. I can count on two hands the number of under 18 players I've ever met I think, only two of which weren't old enough to at least go see R rated movies like Saw, neither of which played for more than a couple weeks.

I'd love to see Chaos become less cartoony that is has been, and for SM's to move away from the "shiny space knights here to save the kingdom and all that is good" and back more to the "genetically engineered psychotic brainwashed super soldier fanatic" that was previously more apparent.

[Quaade]

For the deamonettes, they are supposed to be every desire at once, while at the same time being creatures of nightmare.

The new miniatures reflect that hermofroditic (and everything else imaginable) so much better.

Now, just because your desire is to view naked female breasts, doesn't mean that every person in the 40k universe would like that.
Thus, the new minis are more in touch with the grimdark and you should probably be more honest towards yourself and your own desires ;p

[MaltonNecromancer]

I hardly think one complaint about a child who saw something inappropriate for them is a case of political correctness gone mad; I can see their point. That wet nurse is messed up. I wouldn't show it to kids. That said, I thought it was an amazing sculpt. The parent should simply have taught their kid not to click on anything labelled "NSFW", "The Pain Series" or "goatse".

40K's pretty damn grimdark. What more would you have GW provide? I suppose an IG "Joy Division" camp might be the grimmest thing, replete with models of weeping thirteen year old girls, and grinning guardsmen offering them sweets as a "reward". I suppose we could also have a line of cocaine-addled child soldiers, forced to fight in the Emperor's name.

Actually, what do you mean by grimark? Because it's kind of a personal thing / aesthetic, that comes down to conversion work, usually. the only way I can see 40K getting darker is if it turns into FATAL, and I don't want to have to make lower orifice circumference rolls.

Not after last time...

[Vaktathi]

40K's pretty damn grimdark. What more would you have GW provide? I suppose an IG "Joy Division" camp might be the grimmest thing, replete with models of weeping thirteen year old girls, and grinning guardsmen offering them sweets as a "reward". I suppose we could also have a line of cocaine-addled child soldiers, forced to fight in the Emperor's name.Not quite what most people were thinking there...nor would it really have any place on a gaming table.

There's a lot GW could do that isn't going to get into stuff that's going to be over the top offensive but still be dark. Half the problem is that their attempts to *be* dark and grim come off as parody or just dumb, and much of the rest of the time they go overboard on something else, like the recent SM books with woflymcwolfwolf wielding wolf claws while riding his giant wolf fighting with the bloodyblood angels with bloodfists and bloodmissiles who all wish they could be Ultramarines because they are so Ultra!

[DarkLink]

I hardly think one complaint about a child who saw something inappropriate for them is a case of political correctness gone mad; I can see their point. That wet nurse is messed up. I wouldn't show it to kids. That said, I thought it was an amazing sculpt. The parent should simply have taught their kid not to click on anything labelled "NSFW", "The Pain Series" or "goatse".


Or anything to do with girls and cups:(

[DaveLL]

Seriously? Have you read the Dark Eldar codex?

Grimdarkgrimdarkgrimdark with extra side orders of grim and dark.

Vaktathi's right; GW didn't suddenly become politically correct. They've never been politically correct, and they aren't now. The only parts of the game that aren't completely grim and dark are places where they went overboard in another direction. (Wolfy wolfy wolves, bloody bloody blood angels, goofy orky orks... and BTW, if you don't think the orks have been goofy since they started existing, you don't know a thing about early orks. Imagine things like shokk attack guns everywhere in your army, and you'll get early orks.)

Don't get me wrong, the codexes I enjoy playing are the over-the-top grimdark ones... but there should be some variety.

[Porty1119]

40K's pretty damn grimdark. What more would you have GW provide? I suppose an IG "Joy Division" camp might be the grimmest thing, replete with models of weeping thirteen year old girls, and grinning guardsmen offering them sweets as a "reward". I suppose we could also have a line of cocaine-addled child soldiers, forced to fight in the Emperor's name.


That's not grimdark, that's modern Africa in some of the worse parts.

[L192837465]

That's not grimdark, that's modern Africa in some of the worse parts.

I laughed at this comment.

[bryce963]

While I like grimdark, there is plenty.
Also, complaining that there needs to be more Blanche-ness. The plastic daemonettes are basically 3D versions of the old stuff, maybe with a couple fewer creepy monoboobs.
The Diaz-ettes, while amazing sculpts, really were a departure from the original stuff.

[Renegade]

Seriously? Have you read the Dark Eldar codex?

Grimdarkgrimdarkgrimdark with extra side orders of grim and dark.

Vaktathi's right; GW didn't suddenly become politically correct. They've never been politically correct, and they aren't now. The only parts of the game that aren't completely grim and dark are places where they went overboard in another direction. (Wolfy wolfy wolves, bloody bloody blood angels, goofy orky orks... and BTW, if you don't think the orks have been goofy since they started existing, you don't know a thing about early orks. Imagine things like shokk attack guns everywhere in your army, and you'll get early orks.)

Don't get me wrong, the codexes I enjoy playing are the over-the-top grimdark ones... but there should be some variety.

The DE are the only ones recently that have put 'Grimdark' back in to the game. Seriously, the last IG codex made just about every IG commander going sound like a Chenkov, and why not expand on the Savlar. When they finally get to bring BT in to 5Ed, I hope that they bring back a piece of fluff on them that had them fighting both Eldar and Dark Eldar for an Imperial space station. IF they get the same treatment as the other SM so far, that is toned down or stupid fluff, they may as well have killed them off.


I hardly think one complaint about a child who saw something inappropriate for them is a case of political correctness gone mad; I can see their point. That wet nurse is messed up. I wouldn't show it to kids. That said, I thought it was an amazing sculpt. The parent should simply have taught their kid not to click on anything labelled "NSFW", "The Pain Series" or "goatse".

40K's pretty damn grimdark. What more would you have GW provide? I suppose an IG "Joy Division" camp might be the grimmest thing, replete with models of weeping thirteen year old girls, and grinning guardsmen offering them sweets as a "reward". I suppose we could also have a line of cocaine-addled child soldiers, forced to fight in the Emperor's name.

Actually, what do you mean by grimark? Because it's kind of a personal thing / aesthetic, that comes down to conversion work, usually. the only way I can see 40K getting darker is if it turns into FATAL, and I don't want to have to make lower orifice circumference rolls.

Not after last time...

You really dont want to go reading some of the BL stuff then, as though it none I have read goes quite that far, it goes far enough. Sure that wet nurse model is strange, but no worse then anything your likely to come across in Manga or for that matter, some of the old Chaos fluff (including the WFB stuff) or even some of the experimental things the AdMech have been upto.

Cocaine-addled child soldiers = Salvar conscripts, but wait... they havent got any fluff for them ifs just penal legion, Shaffers lot.

There used to be some very dark areas in the fluff, most of it nows is hard to find.


For the deamonettes, they are supposed to be every desire at once, while at the same time being creatures of nightmare.

They are also meant to be perfection. I know just as many girls that stopped and stared at the old models as blokes. The new ones lack any kind of finesse that the older ones had, one of the things that is suppose to disgust Slanesh about Khorne. Maggy Thatcher naked on a cold wet day with a half brick in a handbag is more of a daemonette that the current ones (a perfect creature of nightmare, twisting of the whole desire thing (unless shes your type of thing) that is as likely to stupify as much as scare.)

[Old_Paladin]

They are also meant to be perfection.

No; they are actually meant to release an aura that makes them seem as objects of perfection, and at the last moment of your existence the facade is dropped so you can see the horror and parody of what killed you.

The old ones were pretty much just small, slender, naked elves with daggers; they didn't really shout 'daemon nightmare from beyond our dimension.' They new ones definitely get the point across that these things are daemons.


I also don't get your point about the Imperial Guard.
You want grim and dark; but are dissatisfied that most of the Imperium treat people as faceless meat for the grinder? That’s the whole point of the grimness of the future of humanity. People don't matter at all, and the ends justify any means to get there. Imperial commanders and Commissars are cold, heartless *******s that care nothing for the lives of other human beings. That all seems pretty dark and hopeless to me.

[Renegade]

No; they are actually meant to release an aura that makes them seem as objects of perfection, and at the last moment of your existence the facade is dropped so you can see the horror and parody of what killed you.

Never read that anywhere, its always been all at once, the Dark Prince being the climax of such, a nightmare you dont want to runaway from, unlike the current ones.


The old ones were pretty much just small, slender, naked elves with daggers; they didn't really shout 'daemon nightmare from beyond our dimension.' They new ones definitely get the point across that these things are daemons. And Slanesh was brought about by the Eldar, as its quite fitting that they would be a kind of parody. The current ones are just ugly.



I also don't get your point about the Imperial Guard.
You want grim and dark; but are dissatisfied that most of the Imperium treat people as faceless meat for the grinder? That’s the whole point of the grimness of the future of humanity. People don't matter at all, and the ends justify any means to get there. Imperial commanders and Commissars are cold, heartless *******s that care nothing for the lives of other human beings. That all seems pretty dark and hopeless to me.

I think you have misread what I put, or there has been some other kind of information break down, as I am saying that alot of that is missing from a lot of current codices.

[eldargal]

From Codex: Chaos Daemons:

In apperance Daemonettes are both beautiful and repuslsive. They have slender, clean limbed bodies and an androgynous charm that is heightened by the scent of the musk that glistens from their sleek bodies. etc.
From memory it went into more detail about the aura around them making them appear as the observers greatest desires in earlier editions. Point is its difficult to make something beautiful and repulsive at the same time, personally I think the new plastics do a suitable job.

[Old_Paladin]

Never read that anywhere, its always been all at once, the Dark Prince being the climax of such, a nightmare you dont want to runaway from, unlike the current ones.
It's like that in the Gotrek and Felix novels.
Felix describes them as enchanting beauties and smelling of perfection; he desires only to be crushed in their claws. Once the enchanted is over he is horrified; and cannot understand why he was ever attracted to their bald heads, waxy and oily skin, oversized and disproportionate crabclaw, etc.


I think you have misread what I put, or there has been some other kind of information break down, as I am saying that alot of that is missing from a lot of current codices.

Probably.
I thought that when you said the only good one was Dark Eldar, you were using the IG as an example of the non-grimdark approach.

[Renegade]

From Codex: Chaos Daemons:
etc.
From memory it went into more detail about the aura around them making them appear as the observers greatest desires in earlier editions. Point is its difficult to make something beautiful and repulsive at the same time, personally I think the new plastics do a suitable job.

I would say that the last ones were closer to it than the latest ones, unless razor teeth, claws and talon feet are really your thing, if your concentrating on the form, rather than the detail, then the sculptor was doing a good job. Some people evidently were focused on the tits, which is missing a lot more of the sculpt.
Its like how people go on about Tau being nice and peaceful, and then you read the background, and they really arent, its the whole thing.

The latest ones are just ugly.

From C:CSM 3.5

Slaanesh may appear as male, female, hermaphrodite or androgynous. Whichever form he takes, his physical beauty is such that no mortal may look upon him and resist the urge to submit.


Probably.
I thought that when you said the only good one was Dark Eldar, you were using the IG as an example of the non-grimdark approach.

I was saying it could have gone further, and possible go more in depth where the last one left off. The 'send in the second wave' could have been more universal, and where are the Commissars with mauls and lash? And their is nothing in the description for them that makes them sound like the terrifying monsters found in some IG BL novels. The biggest let downs though are the C:SM and other SM codices, where you really need to dig for the horrors.

[Kahoolin]

I think it's about right, and have voted as such. I basically agree with the person who said that the only way to inject more darkness would be to inject real evil, like what we have in the real world, and I don't think I want that in my relaxing hobby.

I reckon the reason grimdark often seems silly is because it is silly! Grimdark by its nature is cartoonish. The dark gothic aesthetic is theatrical and unrealistic, it's not capable of being really horrifying. If it was really horrifying it would be . . . realistically horrific. Not a dark and industrial cartoon of reality. I really don't see how it could be any grimmerdarker. You already have a universe where it seems as if no-one is ever happy (or if they are, it's only until something ridiculously bad happens), what more do you want?

Grimdark does not equal boob-toting fetish demons. You guys seem to be asking for more boob toting fetish demons, and somehow I don't think that's going to happen :D

EDIT: By the way, your poll is extremely manipulative. The option you don't agree with is phrased so that picking it seems unreasonably prudish and conservative, and the option you do agree with is phrased so that picking it seems like you are a crusader for common sense. How about something more neutral like "Less grimdark - it's over the top already?"

[JxKxR]

**** political correctness! Now that being said I think 40k is grim and dark enough as it is. I'll be honest when my friends first showed me the game I thought it was pretty corny and goofy with the orks and space elfs, but then they showed me how grim and dark it was and I was sold when I first heard about the chaos gods and Khorne. But if you do want it more grim and dark or if you want more rainbows then we can all use our power of imagination. After reading through this thread you people have given me a great idea for a army with a few grown ups and a bunch of little kids being pushed into battle! They'll be all modeled trying to hold up the guns that are to big for them and have helmets that are to big covering their eyes. Oh it will be adorable!

p.s. I would totally nail the new daemonettes

[Renegade]

By the way, your poll is extremely manipulative. The option you don't agree with is phrased so that picking it seems unreasonably prudish and conservative, Thats mainly because the arguments I have heard for making it less grimdark, is so that it offends less.

A decent parody should leave one asking moral questions, and questioning the morality of the parody. There is normally a line, but that line is the deference betwen depravity and immorality, imho. Even Chaplin managed to make light of Hitler, while exposing his ideals for what they were, or how about Dr Strangelove, life of brian?

[Kahoolin]

A decent parody should leave one asking moral questions, and questioning the morality of the parody. There is normally a line, but that line is the deference betwen depravity and immorality, imho. Even Chaplin managed to make light of Hitler, while exposing his ideals for what they were, or how about Dr Strangelove, life of brian?That may be true, but you can't seriously be suggesting that silly, over-the-top Warhammer 40,000 has ever been intended as a morally instructive parody of totalitarianism? I'd like to hear some reasonable arguments to back that up. Seems to me it is just a wargame made in the 80s by some dudes who liked Judge Dredd, Tolkien and Dune and thought it would be cool to mix 'em all up and play toy soldiers with the result.

[Old_Paladin]

The thing I have noticed is that the majority of people that actually bother to write a comment think that the balance is fine.

So my question to all the "OMG, needz moar of the Grimdark nowz!!!" group is:
How is it going to become darker, without becoming stupid?
Except for the very poor arguement of 'boobs=grimdark' I've seen nothing.

[scadugenga]

1) Lame poll choices. Definitely skewed in the description.

2) The game's "grimmness" hasn't changed much in 20 years. If anything it's gotten darker. Read the fluff. So what if they changed the daemonettes?

3) The only "kid" age wargamers I see play 40k, not warmachine.

[cobra6]

I've also been around since 2nd ed., and I agree with those that say that the earlier editions weren't necessarily "grimdarder" than the current edition.

The orks? They were an army of clowns, intended to make you literally laugh out loud during the course of a game with their ridiculous and self-destructive antics. Every model even had a goofy, impish grin on it's face - even Gahzkull. That whole range has gotten much darker in both the models and the fluff, and that's a good thing.

Chaos? Remember the ooold Noise Marines? The ones that toted a guitar and looked (to quote another post somewhere on this site) like "an Ultramarine had a threesome with David Bowie and Def Lepard?" They were fantastic looking models, but grim or dark? Not even close. Even the old Chaos Champion models, many of which could cross-over between 40K and WFB, mixed some truly disturbing elements with an element of tongue-in-cheek humor, like how many of them were rocking metal "devils horns" with their hands.

That said, there was much less of a "good guy vs. bad guy" element in the fluff back then, in that there really were NO good guys, not even the Ultramarines. If a Space Marine saw a daemon, the whole company was mind wiped. If a Guardsman saw a daemon, the whole army was killed by the Inquisition, along with possibly the entire planet. The current "fluff" stories about Calgar teaming up with the Tau, and the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons (!?!?) would have ended in the SMs massacring their Xenos allies or dying in the attempt.

The old grimdark is still there if you want to find it, like the Slaanesh daemon pic that was included in the Liber Chaotica books (I'm not even sure I should describe it here on a "family website" but I'm sure a few folks know the picture I'm talking about.) That level of darkness and depravity is still there for the devoted and mature gamer who wants to find it (like me,) but I recognize that as a business, GW can't have that kind of stuff on pg. 2 of the rulebook or on a shelf where a sceptical parent is shopping for their 13 year old. If you want that level of grimdark in your army, buy the Nursemaid or do some conversions by all means, there's nothing stopping you.

[Kahoolin]

That said, there was much less of a "good guy vs. bad guy" element in the fluff back then, in that there really were NO good guys, not even the Ultramarines. If a Space Marine saw a daemon, the whole company was mind wiped. If a Guardsman saw a daemon, the whole army was killed by the Inquisition, along with possibly the entire planet. The current "fluff" stories about Calgar teaming up with the Tau, and the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons (!?!?) would have ended in the SMs massacring their Xenos allies or dying in the attempt.Yeah, that's about the only thing I really miss from old fluff, the sense that every faction was evil in a different way and no-one had the moral high ground or any mercy. Made it a lot easier I think to justify battles in fluff too, you didn't get the creeping feeling that you are in the wrong you get now when your guardsmen massacre a bunch of Grey Knights or Tau ;)


That level of darkness and depravity is still there for the devoted and mature gamer who wants to find it (like me,) but I recognize that as a business, GW can't have that kind of stuff on pg. 2 of the rulebook or on a shelf where a sceptical parent is shopping for their 13 year old. If you want that level of grimdark in your army, buy the Nursemaid or do some conversions by all means, there's nothing stopping you.Good advice.

[Melissia]

I don't see how there's been PCness added in.

The thing is, it might appear that to someone who doesn't actually pay attention, sure. But the Imperium isn't sexist-- it's an equal opportunity oppressor. It oppresses women AND it oppresses men. Rounds both genders up and shoves them on a truck, gives them a lasgun and flak armor then points them at the enemy and says "shoot them or we'll shoot you".

And so on and so forth. It's not PC. It's grimdark.

[Vaktathi]

It's not that they've added anything to make it less Grimdark, it's that they tone it down. Look at the art and feel of the 3E SM stuff for example. Much more techy, spartan, and brutal than the newer SM stuff which is much more "knightly" and angelic. Stuff was more likely to have servo's, pipes and wires while newer stuff is more like furs, bling and huge icons. More "cleanse/purge/kill" previously while currently we get more "for the honor of blahblah and glory of derp!" At least, that's what I recollect. I could just be insane.

[cobra6]

@ Vaktathi: I hear you, and I think you are right about the change in Space Marine art dynamic from "dark tech" to "mad monk." However, in my personal opinion I find the newer look more "grimdark" than the old. I can relate more to a techy-looking Marine with pipes and wires, than I can to a guy festooned in boxes of bones, prayers, and a candle sitting on top of his head. I find the juxtaposition of the futuristic with the middle ages to be very sinister - essentially, "our future is the worst of our past" which really is a nightmare future.

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, 3rd Ed was the one where GW essentially decided to get rid of fluff altogether except for the shallowest of outlines, which I hated (I actually left the hobby for several years, rather than play Stratego in Space.) The art and write-up of the current BRB fluff is considerably grimdarker, IMO, than the previous edition anyway.

[Aldramelech]

An IG "Joy Division" camp might be the grimmest thing, replete with models of weeping thirteen year old girls, and grinning guardsmen offering them sweets as a "reward". I suppose we could also have a line of cocaine-addled child soldiers, forced to fight in the Emperor's name.

You really shouldn't describe the modern comp in such terms you know.........

Im sure there are NUT guidlines about this sort of thing.

[MaltonNecromancer]

That's not grimdark, that's modern Africa in some of the worse parts.

Which was the point I was making! Was that not obvious? :confused:

Basically, real war is a series of horrors. I've never met an ex-soldier who came back from war entirely the same man he was when he left, and not in a "became a better man for it" way. More a quiet, sad, aloofness; a feeling that no-one can quite relate to what they've been through. Because usually, they're right - we can't. I remember the night my friend John told me about serving in Belfast during The Troubles. His friend fell down; John was a medic, and tried to help. What he didn't know is that the bullet his friend had been hit with had richocheted off his ribcage, and made his insides into soup. He was dead when he hit the floor, but John didn't find this out for forty-eight hours.

He spent twenty minutes with blood soaked hands, trying to save his friend, convinced he could, because there was no exit hole so "it couldn't have been that bad". The local Irish children gathered round and cheered: another English oppressor gone.

This was not the worst story I was told that night.

John was a high-functioning alcoholic for the next ten years, and a non-functioning alcoholic for the next fifteen.

War is the single worst thing humans do.

The point I was making (evidently too subtly) ws that if we're going to emphasise the "grim" of grimdark, does that mean we're finally going to see the atrocities inflicted by humans onto one another truly represented? Grim does refer to unpleasant after all, and I think we can all agree that the sexualised violence inflicted on humans (primarily women) as an occasional side effect, often direct military strategy, is probably the most unpleasant thing ever. It will certainly annoy the "politically correct" complainers who seem to have gotten people's back's up. It could be interesting in narrative campaigns: "Defend your army's rape camp from the Eldar; if you lose this battle, then for the rest of the campaign all units are a -1Ld". You know, if you're a broken excuse for a human being...

But let's be fair: 40K is escapism, and I don't think anyone wants to escape there. Not unless they've pretty much failed at integrating into human society in any meaningful way.

40K isn't as grim as real war. Sure there's death; sure there's skulls, and blood, and all that other glorious nonsense. But there aren't soldiers inserting broken lightbulbs into teh reproductive organs of brutalised underage rape victims, then kicking them out of the tanks to take pot shots at them, as then run with blood streaming down their legs (Vietnam War, US soldiers on allied Vietnamese forces, source: "'Nam" by Mark Baker). I'm pleased to say I've never seen any mention of a culture of "Double Veterans" amongst any 40K army. There aren't villages of people whose children were taken out, hacked with machetes, and made quadruple amputees in front of them simply "as a warning" (Rwandan genocide, source "We Wish To Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families, by Philip Gourevitch).

That stuff's not part of the power fantasy of being strong, powerful, and dangerous that makes up 40K. that stuff part of a real-world story where people are tortured and die for no reason and the villains get away with it. And I can't imagine anyone wants that mixed up in their 3+ MEQ metanarrative.

It is grim, though.

As far as "dark"... Paint your army black?

Maybe have the books printed white words on black paper?

Honestly, I'm not sure what more you want. 40k is 40K. The rules change, but the setting's as grimdark as it ever was, and it's tongue is stuck firmly in it's cheek (Lion El'Johnson and covert homosexuality references anyone?)

The only bit of censorship I can think of is the removal of human bombs from the IG army lists, and surely those are more relevant than ever. A human bomb modelled with a burkha would certainly offend people, and it's from the original list. Given that they made the Taliban unplayable in COD out of pure "political correctness", maybe GW can take a "brave" step forwards?

[fuzzbuket]

hmmm arfter reading the 2nd ed iG dex and the 5th ed one i realised even though its not realistic nork is a likeable charecter, machius was let down and al'rahim was a ninja...

lets not forget 40k was a RPG first! most like warhammer for the stories.. wether winning ard boyz or puting a little medal on that guardian that killed a deamon, ect, ect..

the only change for 40k to make it 'darker' is less super happy IG iNQ and SM

remember in the old ba pdf of "scary space vampires with chainsaws" there was a story of the flesh tearers killing off a whole company of Ig/sob the whole evil psycos

now look at the flesh tearers: were dying nobely -_-
where are all the tales of imperial losses? in the WHOLE ba dex its just "m41 we got beat by some eldar but in m41.3 we beat them?"

well ill keep reading the 4rth ed fluff sections :D

-fuzz

p.s. as being one of the' younger' form members all you old men wanting 'better' slaanesh sculpts apperes REALLY creepy.

p.p.s. in 40k with your commisinars in the backyard and the transit ships not really private accomidation (one of the ghost novels made it seem hust like rows of iron bars)

[scadugenga]

And after Malton's last post...that's about stark and grim as you could fear.

[Lexington]

Thats mainly because the arguments I have heard for making it less grimdark, is so that it offends less.
How about "it's boring"?

Really, a grim and terrifying universe can be as interesting as anything else, but 40K-style "grimdark" is so repetitive and predictable that it precludes any emotional involvement in the universe. There's no hope to crush, no shining lights for the darkness to devour - just dark, dark, dark. one-note and flavorless, utterly devoid of personality. It has no effect on the heart or mind.

I'd kill for the days of 2nd Edition, when one found a universe with a mix of tones and textures, that lived and breathed, engaging players to be more creative and diverse with their output.

[Renegade]

The thing I have noticed is that the majority of people that actually bother to write a comment think that the balance is fine.

So my question to all the "OMG, needz moar of the Grimdark nowz!!!" group is:
How is it going to become darker, without becoming stupid?
Except for the very poor arguement of 'boobs=grimdark' I've seen nothing.No, thats whats is being said by the "its fine" lobby. Bring in some of the background from BL, the psycho Commissars, the torture for fun and brutality of the CSM, and why are the Chaos Gods BFF?!



That said, there was much less of a "good guy vs. bad guy" element in the fluff back then, in that there really were NO good guys, not even the Ultramarines. If a Space Marine saw a daemon, the whole company was mind wiped. If a Guardsman saw a daemon, the whole army was killed by the Inquisition, along with possibly the entire planet. The current "fluff" stories about Calgar teaming up with the Tau, and the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons (!?!?) would have ended in the SMs massacring their Xenos allies or dying in the attempt.

The old grimdark is still there if you want to find it, like the Slaanesh daemon pic that was included in the Liber Chaotica books (I'm not even sure I should describe it here on a "family website" but I'm sure a few folks know the picture I'm talking about.) That level of darkness and depravity is still there for the devoted and mature gamer who wants to find it (like me,) but I recognize that as a business, GW can't have that kind of stuff on pg. 2 of the rulebook or on a shelf where a sceptical parent is shopping for their 13 year old. If you want that level of grimdark in your army, buy the Nursemaid or do some conversions by all means, there's nothing stopping you.

Why not? Those sort of pictures arent on any page now. That these things moved hardly an eyebrow back then, and we have sceptical parent fussing now, just shows how far things have slipped.


hmmm arfter reading the 2nd ed iG dex and the 5th ed one i realised even though its not realistic nork is a likeable charecter, machius was let down and al'rahim was a ninja...

lets not forget 40k was a RPG first! most like warhammer for the stories.. wether winning ard boyz or puting a little medal on that guardian that killed a deamon, ect, ect..

the only change for 40k to make it 'darker' is less super happy IG iNQ and SM

remember in the old ba pdf of "scary space vampires with chainsaws" there was a story of the flesh tearers killing off a whole company of Ig/sob the whole evil psycos

now look at the flesh tearers: were dying nobely -_-
where are all the tales of imperial losses? in the WHOLE ba dex its just "m41 we got beat by some eldar but in m41.3 we beat them?"

well ill keep reading the 4rth ed fluff sections :D

-fuzz

p.s. as being one of the' younger' form members all you old men wanting 'better' slaanesh sculpts apperes REALLY creepy.

p.p.s. in 40k with your commisinars in the backyard and the transit ships not really private accomidation (one of the ghost novels made it seem hust like rows of iron bars)

Old? just because you thought you'd grown your first pubes, then the spider ran away, kid! It was those kind of models that used to keep those that went shopping with "mumm & daddy" out the shop. It was the teenage age crowed, now a its bunch of moron 10y olds that think to tell you what the fluff is, and you wont tell em to **** off, cause their folks will complain and then the manager will nag.

There was a time when none of that was a problem, and it you didn't like boobs on you slaanesh or had anti-social sensitivities, then it wasnt your kind of shop. (man I miss the 90's)

[MaltonNecromancer]

I don't think they got rid of boobs due to political correctness. I think they got rid of them because...

Well, it just looked a little stupid. Seriously, sexy crab ladies? These are scary / mature? Maybe if you live in the backwoods and have never seen a single New French Extremity film (I recommend "Martyrs"). Your parents disapproved of you playing 40K because it was too adult?! My mum didn't disapprove of me playing 40K because it was "too adult"; she disapproved because I was still playing with toys! Let's not kid ourselves, that's what they look like to the vast majority of outsiders. I know for a fgact I've had to defend myself against against accusations of playing with "little army men" than I have accusations that the game is too disturbing.

As far as your definition of grimdark (which you still haven't adequately provided, BTW), I honestly don't think chaos has ever been that scary. Not if you compare it to some of the other models out there:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/186642
http://www.coolminiornot.com/205521
http://www.coolminiornot.com/171980

In all honesty, who are you angry at? It sounds like you are just want the hobby to be fringe, edgy, and a little bit "dangerous"; a bit of rebellion - a way to shock and astonish. You're after something that provokes a strong reaction from everyday people as a way to define your identity - rebellious, dangerous, alpha male. Your mantra seems to be "they changed it, now it sucks".

Have you considered that it's not them: it's you? You're growing older, and things that once shocked and seemed edgy are now commonplace and everyday. Seriously: you're getting older - have you factored that in? Because I look at the hobby, and it's exactly the same as when I was 11. The models are shinier, the game's more playable and fun (for me - if people aren't having fun with it, well... sucks to be them, eh? I love 5th edition.), there are far more models for far more options... but the core essence of what 40K is hasn't changed. Even the complaints are the same ("New codex is overpowered!";"The game is being dumbed down for younger players!"; "White Dwarf was better when they used to have gaming articles for D&D / 40K / insert your preferred topic here; it's just an advert for GW now!"; etc, etc, and on, ad infinitum.)

Nothing has changed but you. You just got old.

You know that cinema you used to go to as a kid? It's not as big as you remember.

[Renegade]

You know that cinema you used to go to as a kid? It's not as big as you remember.Sad story about that cinema(flee pit). It got closed down when some Yanks complained because it was orinally a Church, and they had some ancestor burried there, and guess who had the most moneyto feed the sharks.


Your mantra seems to be "they changed it, now it sucks". And I have pointed out how it has. I was not blind to your letter either, wanting to make changes to the game to make it more "PC". Stores have been told that they cant play anything that may offend music wise in store (ok, that was brought in a few years ago. apparently when some Germans complained) there are far more kids in the store, and fun topics of backgrown are to be done so "little Timmy" dont hear, when "little Timmy" was never a problem before (and by before, "little Timmy" has only really been a problem in the last 3-4 years) and "my" local GW store has lost a big slice of its older players (teenagers included) , as it was a place to get away from little Timmy.
As for background, I know ppl that joined last edition and have found the new stuff bland.

I think you have gotten old and really dont mind the changes. Hey you even chose to work with kids, so I doubt that the stores are really a problem, when I know that those gamers that I know would rather not have to visit a crèche to get their plastic crack.

[cobra6]

I think Malton hit the nail on the head that most of the "needs more grimdark" crowd just want to relive the nostalgia of participating in a very edgy, fringe, underground hobby that is clearly for adults and not for kids. I was right there back in the 90's man, gaming in my friend's basement, listening to metal, with my dad thinking we were playing with toys and my mom thinking we were worshipping the devil. Many of the models and sculpts were awful looking, compared to today (although we didn't have the benefit of comparitive hindsight, either.)

I miss those days too, but I understand that GW is running a business, not a charity for social rebels. They need to attract new customers, not just cater to the same guys who played in the 90's, most of whom have left the hobby for whatever reason.

And as I've said before, the same grimdarkness is still there. Everybody's been talking about the "Nursemaid" model that just came out from Kingdom Death. Everybody who saw that immediately thought "Slaanesh," even the folks who just started playing. Why is that? They were able to make that connection because the fluff still conveys the grimdark intent without having to display images of torture porn. If you want to shock and titillate your mature gaming group with renditions of graphic debauchery on the tabletop, then invest in some GS and convert away.

[MaltonNecromancer]

there are far more kids in the store, and fun topics of backgrown are to be done so "little Timmy" dont hear, when "little Timmy" was never a problem before (and by before, "little Timmy" has only really been a problem in the last 3-4 years)

Like I said; you've gotten older! You were little Timmy once. Maybe 3 to 4 years ago? :)

And the reason adults (especially those of us who choose to work with children) choose to watch our language around little children / teenagers is simple: parents are some of the most viciously unforgiving humans on the face of the planet. You frak with a tiger, you get bit.

You want to antagonise parents, be my guest. I've seen people go there, I've seen how badly people get burned. The overreaction of a parent is a horrible thing.

And you're right; I don't mind the changes. As a responsible adult I can sit down with my mates, talk about anything, watch anything, etc. Part of freedom is respecting others' boundaries. It's why the Taliban aren't playable in COD - I disagree with that, and think we should all be allowed to kill virtual American soldiers with the same joy we kill Terrorist soldiers. But in disagreeing, I can still see the reasons for it. I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it. I'll just play some Manhunt, and saw a virtual mook's head off with barbed wire instead.

[DarkLink]

: parents are some of the most viciously unforgiving humans on the face of the planet. You frak with a tiger, you get bit.

Oh, yeah. At one of my younger sibling's basketball games in high school, one of the girls on the other team punched another player in the face. And that girl's dad had the gall to argue with the ref when the ref pulled the girl aside and had a little talk.

[Renegade]

You want to antagonise parents, be my guest. I've seen people go there, I've seen how badly people get burned. The overreaction of a parent is a horrible thing.All depends on how you play it. You start reminding them in graphic detail just how there heir came about (females tend to get really squeamish about this) and how little Timmy is not your responsibility though *my" taxes etc is paying for its up keep, and watch the parent either break or go on the defensive.

Anyway, I found out from a friend in the know that the reason for the slight taming of the fluff, art and models is so they can get in to the Chinese market, expect all the old slaanesh stuff to find some clothes and other bits to be a bit tame, as China has a lot of rules, nothing to do with parents but a great big Nanny State!

[Porty1119]

China's government simply sucks. If the US ever looks anything like this, it's going to be 1776 all over again.

[fuzzbuket]

and all this little timmy stuff

sadly kids who are about 8-10 are now playing black ops... im going to say its intro is considerably darker than some 40k/fantasy fluff.. and some stuff now just dosnt apply to the general public.. your avarage 8-17 yr old now likes dragons and space warriors less, but a brutal necromunda videogame ^_^

and renegade i hope you werent insulting me.

ithink the problem is a lot of you got into the hobby when GW was VERY small and you were the target market.
now you dislike the current target market and when im what? 35-45 ill hate the target market too, and so it loops!

its like a young child was a only child and loved very much and was at the center of attention, 12 months later a baby is welcomed in to the family. the child thinks the parents dont love him anymore, since the babby gets all the attention, but they do, the same happens 5 years later.

think about it.

[Renegade]

and all this little timmy stuff

sadly kids who are about 8-10 are now playing black ops... im going to say its intro is considerably darker than some 40k/fantasy fluff.. and some stuff now just dosnt apply to the general public.. your avarage 8-17 yr old now likes dragons and space warriors less, but a brutal necromunda videogame ^_^

and renegade i hope you werent insulting me.



Well as I am a good distance from 35, yet it was a long time since anyone could have called me a 'little Timmy', who is insulting who?

(though if you thought that was an insult, then you have never been insulted)

edit:

As said, the game 'is' being toned down, because GW wants some of the "Nanny State" China market.

[scadugenga]

As said, the game 'is' being toned down, because GW wants some of the "Nanny State" China market.

Pure supposition unless you have documented proof. A GW internal memo or press release would be nice.

Elsewise, this is right up there with "this one time, at band camp..."

[cobra6]

I've given my old 2nd E. books a look through, and they're certainly no grimdarker than the current edition. There are mostly a bunch of pictures of space marines and orks shooting, and pictures of miscelaneous grimdark-looking hooded individuals shooting. There is as much John Blanche artwork in the current book as in 2E. The fluff writeup is mostly the same, and to be honest I found some of the details in the current BRB to be darker and more disturbing than the old stuff. There are the same quotes about burning heretics and mutants, etc. (except the 2E BRB has alot more quotes by the Tyrant of Badab.)

With the three exceptions of the very misguided blurbs about SMs teaming up with Tau and Necrons, and the covering-up of the daemonettes, I would almost say that the game has gotten more grimdark - certainly so when you add in the Liber Chaotica series, the Index Astartes, and all the Black Library books.

[DarkLink]

China's government simply sucks. If the US ever looks anything like this, it's going to be 1776 all over again.

Well, they don't care about human rights. You can't, however, accuse China of being inefficient:rolleyes:.

Incidentally, there's a lesson to be learned there. Forget about human rights violations, that's a matter of having and following a Bill of Rights like we have. But if you look at how China runs itself, it's very different from most western nations. We're run by politicians, who spend all their time arguing over petty grievances and wasting money on ineffective legislature and all that. Heart's in the right place (usually), but poll numbers matter more than results.

China, however, is more akin to a company run by engineers. They don't mess around with all the stuff that bogs down most western democracies. They list problems and create laws to bring forth a desired solution.


Not to say I prefer the way China governs, but in at least that aspect they're doing very well. They have a vision for where they want the country to be, and they're working to achieve it, rather than arguing over why it's the other guy's fault some stimulus package didn't work.

Moral of the story is, I'd rather have an engineer or scientist leading the country that a liberal arts major:p.

[Duke]

Please try to avoid political discussions in the public threads. Thnank you.

Duke

[eldargal]

Although I don't accept that there has been any de-grimdarking, I've decided I don't have a problem with extra grimdark being limited to Black Library. I don't think something like M'shens' death would be suitable for a rulebook which will be used by quite young people. Little Timmy's mater pops the book open to see whats what, and reads something like that, I can see her having a quite justifies WTF. I'm not squeamish at all and even I found it pretty icky.

[Kahoolin]

Moral of the story is, I'd rather have an engineer or scientist leading the country that a liberal arts major:p.Argh, if only Duke hadn't posted what he did, I wouldn't have let you off easy on this mate! Damn you Darklink getting the first and last word!

[mikethefish]

Have to say I go against what appears to be the VAST majority here.

The 40k universe needs a hell of a lot LESS "grimdark".

Not because of any silly notions of political correctness, but ... mainly because it's really ridiculous. Honestly the entire 40k universe has become a complete joke. It's as if it's turned into its own cliche - a complete and utter parody of itself. The writers spew pretentious refuse all over their computer screens, toss in a few truckloads of skulls and creepy cherubs and say "hey, this is great!". Once long ago, in a far away time, the 40k fluff might have been worth reading, but those days are long past.

The game is fun. The models are neat looking (for the most part). The fluff is completely ridiculous.

This is of course my own opinion - but hey, this is a poll. It invites opinions. *shrug*

[DarkLink]

I kind of agree. The Imperium has stood for 10000 years. Meaning that for all those hundreds of stories of some human planet falling to Chaos or something, there are tens of thousands of cases of the Guard curbstomping some would-be invader.

It's near impossible to maintain any semblance of internal consistency so long as contradictions like that exist. Unless GW wants to actually advance the storyline, that it. Maybe kill off the Emperor... Let a Black Crusade get past Cadia... Just saying...


Plus, whining about grimdark vs non-grimdark is utterly pointless. A good story doesn't have to fall into a particular category. We shouldn't be asking "Should GW make it more or less grimdark?". We should be asking "How can GW improve the 40k storyline?".


Argh, if only Duke hadn't posted what he did, I wouldn't have let you off easy on this mate! Damn you Darklink getting the first and last word!

:p

[Porty1119]

I'd have to agree. The whole fluffi-verse has kind of stagnated, no thanks to GW. If this is fixed, a lot of people will probably be pretty happy and go hog wild with new models. It's win-win.

[oni]

Pretty sure the new Dark Eldar codex was anything but...

Anyway, Political Correctness is akin to a mental disorder IMO and I will rail against it until I'm dead and gone.

[Dellamorte]

In a game system far far away...
There was a company called "White Wolf" and in the early days of Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc... there was an interesting mix of cartoonish and goth. And as people became familiar with it, and the LARP and the RPG spread to conventions far and wide the serious became cartoony and the goth became carictures of themselves. However, there was room for the dark and creepy, but for liability reasons White Wolf wanted plausible deniability and thus was born "Black Dog".

Now with Black Dog, all the writers of White Wolf could describe in lurid detail everything to their twisted-hearts content. Many of Black Dog's books even came in blacked out baggies as not to offend the casual shopper. They described the eating of brains, rape, murder, desecration of the dead... and the living... all in the name of realism.

Then one day, as White Wolf achieved its pinnacle of mainstream popularity, it swept all of the original Black Dog products off the shelves as White Wolf version 2.0 took the stands. And when questioned by its loyal followers, "Why did you get rid of the explicit and grotesque?" By response in many, many press releases White Wolf decreed, "By being so graphic we hampered the imagination of the players, by leaving more to the imagination we actually encourage gamers to be as gory or pc as their own minds and playstyle dictates." By doing so gamers are forced to take responsibility for their own sociopathic tendencies; White Wolf gets more money by ensuring a higher distribution to all the Barnes&Nobles, Waldenbooks, and Books-a-millions in the world; and factions still get to debate on whether RPGs create serial kills... in other words, everbody lives happily ever after.

Whats the moral of the story? You can't make everybody happy, but as long as you are making money, its all good.

[Dellamorte]

As a side note (and to garner a few more posts to my meager score):
As far as "Grim dark" Warhammer... and especially Warhammer 40k is almost unrelentingly black, even the humor is black, the only real color is the splashes of blood, here, there, and everywhere. The "main" protaganists of the series are argueably on a galactic quest of genocide, their main antagonists (aside from themselves) are mirrors so evil that they can't even call themselve evil because that would imply their is a method to their madness. The "greater good" will willing sacrifice a planet of sentients for the sake of system without a second thought. The space elves are either going the way of the dodo or blissed out sadists. And death not only walks amongst them all, but it also has a legion of self-repairing exoskeletons to boot. I mean it seems that the only light of joy (aside from the occasional nuclear grenade) emenates from ork kulture, I mean c'mon they are a truly happy race ("face-eating squig" contests anyone? and lets not forget their "goff rokkers" and their specially bred "hair squiqs"). That aside, Warhammer is so completely you are spawned - you fight - you die/get corrupted/used as a food source - everything is meaningless in the end that if it got anymore "Grim dark" I would be panting and mockingly calling it emo.

No, their minis aren't as explicit, but that can be over come with some personal skill over mass-produced grubs and boobs. I know my imagination can more than cover down on any lacking sex, violence, and depression, and where my imagination is lacking there is always rule 34 and 4chan.

[BuFFo]

Why stop at double posting in the necromantic threads you are dredging up?

Go for a quadruple post next time! Don't hold back!

[Dellamorte]

I... live... again...