Shardnets

[w7west]

Shardnets are the special wyche weapon that allows you to rob enemies in base contact of an attack. Seems simple enough, but the following situation occurred last week:

Wyche squad assaults termie squad and places the shardnets so that 3 lightning claw termies are each in base, and the one in the middle is in base with both shardnets. Feeling quite proud of myself I boasted the middle termie now has but a single attack my good sir, to which my friend replies nay, special rules may not be applied in multiples to single models.

I flipped through my codex to get a close up look at the wording on shardnets and basically it goes as follows:

"models in base contact with a model with a shardnet have their attacks reduced by 1"

It seems like this statement was unable to disprove his point, as it does not mention that this ability would stack with multiple shardnets. Even though the termy was in base with 2 nets, he wouldnt be subject to having this special rule applied to him twice.

This of course brought me mild sadness, but I prefer a pure kabal to any force employing wyches based purely on sexyness anyway so anything that makes wyches less godly is a slight boon to me I guess. How would you guys interpret this situation? I know a lot of people around this site have been talking about the nets as though the effect is cumulative, although I have never seen someone show why.

[BuFFo]

The Shardnet rule is applied to each individual shardnet. People seem to want to apply the rule to ALL shardnets at once.

Shardnet A in b2b with a model A? Yes. -1 attack as per the shardnet rule, because model A is in base to base with a shardnet A.

Shardnet b in b2b with a model A? Yes. -1 attack as per the shardnet rule, because model A is in base to base with a shardnet B.

Model A gets -2 attacks.



Now, if opponents want to claim that the shardnet rule applies to all shardnets at once, then I can claim the same thing, but the rule is coming from EACH shardnet and then applying to all shardnets at once.


Shardnet A in b2b with a model A? Yes. -1 attack as per the shardnet rule, because model A is in base to base with a shardnet.

Shardnet b in b2b with a model A? Yes. -1 attack as per the shardnet rule, because model A is in base to base with a shardnet.

Model A gets -4 attacks because it is hit with two instances of the Shardnet rule applied to all Shardnets.



See, this can pretty retarded fast.

Each Shardnet gives -1 to a model touching it. Lets keep it simple.

[w7west]

That was basically how I was understanding it before the game, although it doesn't mean his point was invalid. I like to look at things from different angles and from his point of view I couldn't see anything wrong with the interpretation.

Here is a little sample to try and show how I think he would explain it:

(x) = termie , (.) = wyche

(x1) (.) (x2) (.) (x3)


It comes time for his termies to attack:

x1: is in base with a shardnet. Checking codex we see being in base with a model with shardnet reduces attack by 1. 2 attacks for him.

x2: is in base with a shardnet. He is also in base with another shardnet. By checking the codex, we see that if a model is in base with a shardnet his attack is reduced by 1. There seems to be no reason to take the rule further than how it is worded "if model in base with shardnet loses attack"
-model in base? check
result - model loses attack.

x3: same thing as x1


I can see how both ways of interpreting this would make perfect sense which is why I wanted some feedback. Hopefully this issue will get FAQ'd or someone can provide me with RAW talking about how special rules stack to individual models.

[DrBored]

If it works the way your opponent wants it to work, then Shardnets will be useless against IC's and MC's and Bloodbrides and Wyches as a whole will drop in usefulness.

I'm going to stick with BuFFo's logic because I'd rather not have an option in this spiffy new Codex already thrown into uselessness.

[Archon Charybdis]

It seems to me if they wanted to the effects of the Shardnet to apply only once, regardless of the number of nets in b2b, they'd have used the same language Torment Grenade Launcher which says "any enemy unit that is within 6'' of one or more vehicles with torment grenade launchers..." Also, there is no universal rule that says special rules can never stack.

[bigman45]

Can shardnets bring a models attacks to "0"?

[Calypso2ts]

The minimum is 1 attack.

[BuFFo]

It seems to me if they wanted to the effects of the Shardnet to apply only once, regardless of the number of nets in b2b, they'd have used the same language Torment Grenade Launcher which says "any enemy unit that is within 6'' of one or more vehicles with torment grenade launchers..." Also, there is no universal rule that says special rules can never stack.

You are 100% correct.

People choose to make rulings ambiguous for an upper hand, but basic reading comprehension by most intelligent players makes them immune to such tom-foolery.

[BlackEnsign]

The way I look at rules that helps a lot is to interpret each part of the wording. Example as follows:

"...to represent the entangling effects of the shardnet, every enemy model in base contact with the weilder fights with one less Attack (to a minimum of 1).

base contact with the weilder = The word "the" puts this on the welder of the shardnet, not the model in base contact with it. This means you apply the penalty from the point of view of the shardnet, not the opposing model. You would therefore apply the penalty from each individual shardnetl. (The penalties stack.)

If it was worded "base contact with a model weilding a shardnet" (which it doesn't) then it switches it to the point of view of the model taking the penalty. You would ask "am I in b2b with a shardnet?" Regardless of how many, the answer would be yes and you would only take one penalty.


Now, I started writing this post from the point of view that they didn't stack based on how the rule had been stated previously in this forum. It was not until I quoted the rule and broke down the essential points that I realised the opposite.

[w7west]

Now, I started writing this post from the point of view that they didn't stack based on how the rule had been stated previously in this forum. It was not until I quoted the rule and broke down the essential points that I realised the opposite.

Thank you for a clear interpritation that actually disproves the point my friend was trying to make. We were both looking at it from "a model" therefore the perspective being from the model getting attacks removed. You have pointed out that the perspective is from "the model" with the shardnet.

I am looking forward to robbing mr lightning claw down to one attack tomorrow :)

[Mal]

Again, this is purely the difficulty of the english language, and the fact that many many people don't actually know it as well as they would like to think.

The english language is actually a very complex and precise language, this means its easy to make mistakes... it is unfortunate that there are a number of people who actually make a point of trying to rules lawer the wording for an advantage, but this is something you can expect to find in almost any competative event.

Most of the time when i've had issues over the wording of the rules with people it has been simply a case of people not reading the rules throughly enough to understand them, but rather skimming them for the main points and then making asumptions to fill in the blanks. While there is nothing wrong with this (for new players at any rate), people need to remember that any assumption you make is based on your own opinion and will always be biased in your favour (its human nature folks).

So please, make a point of reading the rules proplerly, honest mistakes are fine and not a problem, but if someone calls you up on something, let go of your pride and check. Thats all I ask...

[Xas]

basically: go learn english.
secondaryly (no, this word doesnt exist and was made up on the spot for humor): there exists no rule that says a special rule may only be applied once (funny way to read it if that rule would exist: space marine apothecaries only allow each model in their squad ONE single FNP roll during the whole game ;9 ).

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

@Xas Secondarily certainly is a word, my friend!

I can't see where someone could make the mistake of misreading the rule, it's pretty clear to me. However, are Shardnets the way forward? I've gone for a Hydra Gauntlet and Razorflail combo with most of my Wych units. Views?

[Drew da Destroya]

@Xas Secondarily certainly is a word, my friend!

I can't see where someone could make the mistake of misreading the rule, it's pretty clear to me. However, are Shardnets the way forward? I've gone for a Hydra Gauntlet and Razorflail combo with most of my Wych units. Views?

It depends on what you want your Wyches to do. Wyches used to be 100% a tarpit unit (automatically reduced incoming attacks, if you rolled WS5 for drugs they became harder to hit, 4++), and they still excel at that role. Shardnets help them fulfill that role, as do defensive grenades.

With the new book, people are using them as assault shock/killy troops. I haven't really tried them in this role yet, so I'm not sure how effective the basic Wyche will be, but Razors or Fists would help in this. Personally, I think I'd use basic Wyches as tarpits, and the Bloodbrides for killin'. I'm pretty torn between fists and flails, though... The fists seem to benefit more from drugs, but math is in favor of the razors.

[Xas]

@Xas Secondarily certainly is a word, my friend!

I can't see where someone could make the mistake of misreading the rule, it's pretty clear to me. However, are Shardnets the way forward? I've gone for a Hydra Gauntlet and Razorflail combo with most of my Wych units. Views?

ohh... how convenient that it actually is a word :D

well I have been useing an inbetween with 1 shardnet and 1 hydra gauntlet on my normal wyches as basic theoryhammer tells me that the first shardnet is very usefull but a 2nd and 3rd are very situational (the first can cancel out the searges additional attack even in a basic marine/guard/whatever squad if your oponent palces him poorly as well as your basic dreadnought. 2nd and 3rds are only usefull against dedicated melee walkers, MCs and stupid ICs that let you catch them with more than one as well as dedicated assoult units which you dont want to engage in the first place and rather shoot up).

in those test the hydra gauntlet hasnt done anything but look cool and scare my oponent (WHAT? +d6 attacks? Oh... only s3 not ignoring armor... phew!). Theory says that the hydra gauntlet with an average +2,5A is better than the razorflails which let you reroll your 2/3 attacks you begin with.

So if you want to go offensive I'd put hydra gauntlets on whyches and try out razorflails on bloodbrides (with 4A on the charge the rerolling bonus might be usefull more consistant than the +d6 attacks).


even though I fear the whych weapons are not worth their points other than shardnets in certain circumstances (I love killing all types of walkers with haywire bombs. yes you only hit on 6s but he has 1 attack to beginn with and you usually 10 and once you score that immobilized result you are set for an easy kill). hydras/razorflails would have been good for +2-5 points per model if you could equip your whole squad (I could see a 20points/model, including haywire grenades, bloodbride squad be worth it, if ALL of them could reroll misses and wounds).