Games Workshop and Sexism

[MaltonNecromancer]

Hello there all. This is my first proper thread, and it's a bit of a difficult one. This is something of a contentious issue.

...

Now, that's kind of like describing the Second World War as "a bit of a scuffle". Any posting on issues relating to sexism that I have seen in the past is the equivelant of signing your own Internets death warrant; the flames from the internet backdraft burn smokelessly down to the bone, leaving nothing untouched.

Nonetheless, I am feel this is the right place to come for feedback. After an unpleasant incident (described below), I was forced to strongly reassess my "Just Say Nothing, It's Not Worth The Hassle" policy on discussing sexism in relation to Games Workshop's product.

I am writing a letter of complaint to Games Workshop, because I Have Had Enough, And Can Take No More. I am publishing this letter below for anyone to read. I intend to simply read the feedback, and make adjustments to my letter, based on any comments and criticisms of my logic that I feel are warranted.

I hope you will read, and enjoy the debate I put forward. I intend to start no flames or internet backdraft, even though I know that the very act of using the word "sexism" should be in the dictionary definition of "asking for trouble".

I leave my letter for your persual, and I await comments, hopefully helpful and (sadly more likely) enraged,

I warn you now: it's 4, 613 words long. TL;DR comments are kind of obvious :o

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

Dear Games Workshop,

I have been a long-time fan of yours for many years now. I first became interested in your product in 1989 at the age of 11. While my addiction to the hobby has waxed and waned, it's not something I've ever truly given up. I doubt I ever truly will.

But there is an aspect of the hobby that I have observed and felt ill-at-ease with for many years, and as I have grown older and more aware of the ramifications of art, it has felt more and more unpleasant to observe, until now it is (for me) something I feel I must write to you about.

I am an English teacher by profession, and have been so for the last eight years. It is a rewarding job, and offers many exciting opportunities for those so inclined. One of these is the school wargaming club, which I have been running quite successfully for the last three years. Last year, something happened, and it is this event which has finally compelled me to write to you.

A young girl from year 7, (accompanied by a friend obviously brought along for emotional support) entered the club room, and nervously asked if it was okay if she could play – she wasn't sure if girls were allowed, because she'd never seen any in her local Games Workshop, and none played at school.

I had been publicising the club as best I could all year, and specifically said anyone could play, and she said that was what had encouraged her; up until then, she genuinely believed women not allowed to.

Now, far be it for me to claim that an isolated case like this is indicative of an overall problem; one piece of anecdotal evidence is indicative of nothing but the anecdote. However, I know for a fact that the girls at school all have some form of computer games console. The most popular is currently the Xbox 360, and their favourite game is Grand Theft Auto (a game roughly as "masculine" as the various Warhammer universes, albeit in a different way).

I am hoping the feeling for these two contrasting products should serve to make my point.

A further anecdote which I might share concerns a female friend whom I can put you in contact with, should you wish to confirm the veracity of this; she is a university student, studying History to degree level. She became interested in Warhammer Fantasy Battle through her boyfriend's collection, and went into the shop to buy some Brettonians (she is a fan of French history and Grail mythology). Upon taking them to the counter, the Games Workshop employee and face of the company behind the counter sneered and asked “So, are you going to be painting these pink, then?”

An adult woman, fully intending to join the hobby and provide income for the company, left the shop feeling patronised and insulted by an employee who clearly had no idea how to provide customer service, but perhaps more relevantly to this discussion, no idea how to talk to a woman.
She painted the Brettonians in accurate French heraldry, based on the period of French history she was studying for her degree.

I could go on; I have not even mentioned the simple ratio of female shoppers to male in Games Workshop stores, suffice to say that the only female customers I regularly see in my local store tend to be over forty and buying models for their sons.

Perhaps I have a unique store. Perhaps elsewhere, Games Workshop stores have an equal, or maybe even primarily female customer base. I suspect not, given that I have shopped in many such stores in the UK and seen no such thing.

Regardless, this is the issue that I feel I must complain about. It is the matter of women in the Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 universe, both in-game, and out. I intend to lay out my thoughts on the subject as fully and (I hope) intelligently as my education allows, but everything can be boiled down to a single question. I present it here, to quite bluntly ask you:

Why is your product so sexist?

Now, this may seem a harsh question; no-one, especially in England in 2010 likes to be accused of any form of prejudice. However, I feel that the accusation is both warranted, and ultimately a matter that needs serious, and immediate redress.

As a first case, let me bring up the issue of the "Dads and lads" initiative begun in November of 2010. Billed as "a fantastic day to bring your parents and siblings into your local Hobby Centre and introduce them to the world of Games Workshop and show them what your hobby is all about" on your website as of the 16th of November 2010, where is the mention of mum? Sister? evidently we can bring our families… as long as they're male.

If you feel that no women would be put off by a notice that is quite clearly gender specific, let me again remind you of the year 7 girl who felt that she was not welcome. A sign like that will only reinforce the message that she (a paying customer I might add) is not wanted, simply because of her chromosomes.

Now, this little matter might seem like a quibble, but it's not. It's actually the tip of a colossal iceberg, and is simply the latest slap in the face to those of us who believe in progressive values and the inclusion of women and girls in a hobby that seems to make at best a lazy habit of ignoring them, and at worst, outright excludes them.

To start with, I would like to actually prove that the product is sexist to begin with. For this, I shall be looking primarily at the Warhammer 40, 000 game line, entirely because it is firstly your companies biggest selling product, and secondly, because the issues in Warhammer 40,000 are mirrored across every single game line produced by Games Workshop. It represents, in a very real sense, the marginalisation of women both in-universe, and in real life, that Games Workshop seemingly embraces.

Initially, I bring up a piece of core background material to the Warhammer 40,000 universe, which also addresses an issue regarding Games Workshops' most iconic design, and biggest seller. That would be the Space Marines – and the fact none of them are female. Put simply: what reasonably justifiable real-world reason can be given for them all being male?

The answer that seems to be given is an in-universe justification that Space Marine genetic implants are incompatible with the female body. However, this explanation is no kind of justification at all; it is the same problem a single step removed. The actual reason for Space marines being male only is simply because of the material written by Andy Chambers and others back in 1987.

As a result, no in-universe justification can provide a satisfactory reason, because ultimately, the Space Marines aren’t real. Neither is the Emperor, Khorne, Slaanesh, the Eldar, etc… As a consequence of this, whatever GW choose to say about them becomes the truth.

If we once again state “they’re not real, so any plot device we choose to use applies” why not just start releasing female miniatures for all lines? Refusal simply makes no sense at all if the reason is simply because the current version of the Warhammer 40000 back story says so. The back story is made up, as are the rules. I would here point out we are currently on the 5th iteration of Warhammer 40000's rule set (and the 8th of Warhammer Fantasy Battle's!) If the core rules themselves can change over time to accommodate the demands of players, why not attitudes of men in the 40K universe towards women? The answer is, and can only be, that there is no good reason whatsoever. If it is simply a matter of getting a certain number of consumers to complain about an issue that causes your company to implement a system change, could we perhaps be told how many of these consumers are required?

Finally, I would point out that even the in-universe back story provides the possibility of retroactively altering the game universe's continuity: The Emperor was a free-thinking atheist and wanted to lead his society into a bright and glorious future: why would he only use men to create Space Marines? While, yes, the argument can be made that he's not as "good" as suggested, the bottom line remains that this aspect of his personality provides you with a perfectly acceptable reason for why female Space Marines could exist.

The next reason give for the lack of women is because “the fans” will not accept it. These complaints carry absolutely no weight – “the fans will stop buying the product” is often cited as a logical argument against change in all businesses.

This argument is irrelevant for two reasons. The first is that it would be a simple matter of a few sentences in the next iteration of the game lines' product, saying that there are female combatants to all relevant races. Then, a simple set of plastic upgrade sprues along the lines of the chapter upgrade sprues could be released. If the cost is too prohibitive, metal “bitz” could be released on the GW website to test consumer interest. Either way, it would mean that fans could choose to produce female models or not, as their tastes run; surely additional options that hurt no-one are a good thing? (I would point out here the set of 10 Cadian female soldiers I saw for sale on eBay in the UK on the week beginning february the 8th 2010. 10 female torsos sold for £75. There were many, many bids. If eBay is the place to truly learn the value of your miniatures, then that surely teaches a stern lesson in money your company is simply not making.)

The second reason the argument that fans will be reluctant to accept change has been borne out by previous game releases. The Tau were widely lambasted for many reasons upon their release and after, yet remain part of the game, and popular with many. Fans complained, but fans will always complain. It is impossible to please everyone.

I feel that a key problem is, and has always been, that GW has a very sexist attitude and this comes out as a very sexist product, dealing in very stereotypically masculine power fantasies. Fantasy genres in general have a HUGE following amongst women (just look at the followings of Harry Potter, Twilight, et al – you may not like them, but they prove that as a commodity, fantasy is not a “males only” genre by any means); GW is not, and has never been, interested in catering to women.

Part of the fun of any story medium is the immersion in a fictional world. Like any story, an audience likes it to be as believable as possible. In films and other media, there are points of audience identification. Basically, characters and situations who represents elements from their own lives for the audience to relate to.

This is obviously a key part of the appeal of the Space Marines: the recognition of a level of bravery and honourable courage one might aspire towards in real life. Likewise, fans of the Orks might find their black humour and cheerful aggressiveness reflective of their own personalities; gruff but likeable. Even Tyranids, the most alien of all the armies, have the appeal of sheer faceless power and strength – a definite male power fantasy.

If you’re male, there are hundreds of models you can have to represent aspects of yourself. What if you’re a woman?

Which figures represent you?

Firstly, very few. Going back to the Rogue Trader era, there were a couple of female guardsmen, most of them obviously inspired by the female marines in the film “Aliens”. Where did they go? Now, less than one percent of all the Imperial Guard figures ever released are female – including a limited edition female commissar dressed in a corset, clear BDSM imagery . Of the two women who were part of the “Schaeffer's Last Chancers”, boxed set, one of whom fought in a miniskirt; again, clearly sexualised – no male Guardsman has been released in a way to satisfy the Female Gaze.

The background tells us there are no female Space Marines, no female Orks, and less than half of Eldar are female (and even then, there is only a relative state of gender equality because of the debt Games Workshop's mythology owes to J.R.R Tolkein's elves. This underpinning mythology prevents the exclusion of female combatants from the Eldar. Sadly, it's not mythology invented by Games Workshop, so any claims that the Eldar represent forward thinking values are meaningless). Even Tyranids are overtly described as male (BroodLORD, SwarmLORD, and the older Genestealer Patriarch: masculine titles all.) The Dark Eldar manage to have female models, but then undo all this with a combinations of outfits better suited to a strip club than the battlefield, as well as the undefendable Slave figures – according to the back story of the Dark Eldar, these are rape victims, but yet the models present them in alluring poses, and there are no equally subjugated male slave figures.

This then brings us to the issue of the remaining female models, who are almost without exception, portrayed as sexual perverse or religious lunatics, frequently both.

Possibly the most extreme examples can be found in the older, large-scale "Inquisitor" line of figures; the very first female figures released, Sevora and Severina, were overtly clad in sadomasochistically inspired fetish masks normally only found in specialist sex shops, and representative, let us not forget, of a desire to be subjugated. Is this how Games Workshop wants it's female customers to feel: like submissive, dominated sex objects? Because more women I have shown the designs to have been unimpressed ("Sickening" was the word one friend used) by the design than inspired to spend money on it. Which is, I hope you remember, the bottom line to any business concern.

The most obviously female army is obviously a problem by it's clearly gendered nature. Sisters of Battle seem to have appeal to women gamers, but where male gamers have fantasies of bravery and honour to aspire to, female gamers are given fantasies based around being nuns? Yes, arguably the Space Marines are monks, but they aren’t called “Space Monks”, while the title “Sisters” of Battle makes the religious connotation utterly explicit. The number of unpleasantly misogynistic “nuns with guns” jokes prevalent amongst certain sections of the Warhammer 40000 community says a lot about how the perception of the Sororitas amongst gamers.

The Sisters of Battle are also presented (to a degree) as sex objects. Comparing them to the clean lines of marine power armour, or the practicality of the Cadian flak jackets, we can see how demeaning they are. Sororitas power armour does not feature an Aquila chest plate, but a corset, which is traditionally an undergarments and one with highly sexual semantic connotations. While Catachans have naked chests, they do not go to war in their underwear. They still have the dignity of trousers!

When the demeaning outfits are combined with an army that are thematically nuns, you have an army that is only superficially about women. Nuns represent an absolute repression of all that is female (motherhood is banned, sexuality is banned, ownership of possessions is banned, and your body ceases entirely to be your own property) in exchange for a slavish loyalty to an all-powerful (and often abusive) father figure who offers very ephemeral rewards in return.

So while superficially it seems like the Sororitas is the premier army choice for female gamers, it's not. The soldiers may be female... but they are slaves to males (Case in point: the Witch Hunters codex lists Troops choices which are all female, but yet over half of the HQ's and Elite choices are male!). These are women very much in thrall to a patriarchy that only lets them fight the way the men allow.

While I mentioned earlier that anecdotal evidence is unreliable, I feel it is worth adding that most of the women I have talked to about 40K actually find the Sororitas offensive on a very deep level; they’ll quite happily play as Necron, or Tyranids, but the frankly bizarre sexual politics and unpleasant misogynistic subtext leave them feeling almost insulted.

I haven't even mentioned that the Sisters of Battle line has currently been withdrawn.

Returning to the only armies that feature a significant number of female models we have the Eldar, and Slaanesh. Now while on the surface, both of these forces do feature many more female models than other armies, there is a clear underlying message - that women can only be considered effective combatants if they've got superhuman powers, otherwise they have to stay home (and perhaps have the babies before cleaning the kitchen.) Slaanesh models in particular reveals an awful lot about the way the male gaze permeates the design ethos of Warhammer, representing as the do a very male fear of sexuality and disempowerment at the hands of monstrous women. While that may be because of the in-universe fear, it would be more palatable if the other armies had more female soldiers.

At this stage, I must leave off from Warhammer 40, 000 proper and mention perhaps the most vile and explicit example of pure unadulterated sexism, which clearly dips it's toe into the filthy waters of outright misogyny. It can be found in the “Necromunda” specialist game. The Escher clan, the only gang with any female members could only do it because the males were “genetically inferior” and it is here where the implications reach deeply worrying levels of misogyny. According to the Warhammer 40000 universe as written every woman in the whole of Necromunda (and by extension, the whole human race) is “genetically inferior” to men. This is surely the definition of distasteful implications, which if they were about different ethnic groups would border on outright racism – the game genuinely argues that women are naturally weaker than men;

There are many female gangs in the real world who put the lie to this, not to mention the deeply implied insult to those brave women who enlist worldwide. Are we to believe that they are the inferior of the men they fight alongside? Perhaps this is not meant to apply to the whole of the Warhammer 40000 universe; Necromunda is, after all, only a specialist game. Nonetheless, Necomunda is implied to be representative of hive worlds and Imperial worlds as a whole, so this seems unlikely.

While game writers often exhort us as gamers to ignore the background if we want to, and to make up our own if we prefer; the point is, this background is all entirely fictional, and constructed. Why can’t it be less obviously discriminatory?

Now at the moment, I have not given any financial reasons as to why this would make good sense. I intend to do so now. I am of the absolute conviction that the abhorrent and obvious sexism I have outlined above hurts Games Workshop's profits.

To return to an earlier example, look at the success of the “Twilight” series and it's associated merchandise. While it may be hated by many, there is no denying the money it has made. Case in point, it effectively created the whole “Dark Romance” for the current generation of teenage girls. To dismiss it out of hand as immature or badly written is to ignore the fact that it tapped into a market that was starving for the product. To compare it to an intellectual property at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, consider that “Blade” was a fairly masculine vampire film that made good money at the box office. “Twilight”, as an intellectual property, has been riding high for years now. What’s the difference between the two? Arguments about the quality of the writing aside (and neither is a particularly good example) it boils down to demographics. “Blade” was made for teenage boys, and “Twilight” was made for teenage girls.

This is, of course, the bottom line: GW is a real-world business concern, facing difficult times (as all businesses are in these times of economic austerity) for the next few years. Let us not forget the number of businesses previously thought “unsinkable” - Woolworths, etc: for GW as a business to ignore the female customer base is to ignore 51% of the money they could be making.

This makes absolutely no sense on any level.

I would here point out the obvious business example of Nintendo and Pokemon.

Back in '98, Nintendo was pretty much done; their games and consoles weren't selling. Mario was a tired commodity, ten years away from the nostalgia that would help sell the Wii. That nostalgia wave didn't exist, because at the time, there wasn't enough distance from the early instalments. Nintendo were considered old news in the face of Sony's all-conquering Playstation (a console that succeeded primarily because it aggressively targeted a demographic that had not been sold to previously, in this case young males with high disposable incomes). Nintendo's product line was stale.

In essence, the player base was sick of their seemingly childish, tired, and most significantly behind the times product. With their new Playstation, and it's adult-targeted games, Sony presented something radically different, and massively exciting.

The future.

But.

Nintendo didn't go broke. A cursory glace at their balance books from 1998 clearly shows that Pokemon is why. While the cartoon provided excellent and undeniable marketing, that's irrelevant to the point here. Look instead at what the game offered:

- On the one hand, violence and exciting fights for the boys (dragons and lions and tigers and things with claws).

- On the other hand, cute little pets that grow and get better if you care for them (witness the insufferable cuteness of the Jigglypuff).

While there have always been fads amongst children (Star Wars, then He-Man, then Transformers, then Ninja Turtles, etc...), Pokemon was the very first modern toy fad for children that was entirely gender non-specific. Even the "colours" were kept non-gendered: Red or Blue, not Pink or Blue.

Also, as a side note, the existence of products like “Polly Pocket” success proves (in a very roundabout way) that girls also like miniatures.

Returning to Pokemon, the genius of the series was to offer everything; combat, cute animals, raising animals, collecting, and the best it of all from a sales point: you needed a copy of both games to "catch 'em all". This moves it beyond the domain of the one player and into the realm of the social game. You had to negotiate with friends to complete your collection (unless you were super-rich, and actually wanted to play the game through twice on your own).

It combined everything that appealed to boys with everything that appealed to girls and made it work, and it made a great deal of money in doing so; I cannot imagine that GW would choose to turn away from that kind of money.

In the current generation of toys, things are more gendered than ever; Transformers is back, and there's still no "female" Transformer. Bratz is teaching a whole generation of girls that all they need to succeed is make-up and high heels. Is this all we want to offer our children? Do we really want to be teaching our daughters that their looks are the only thing that have to offer the world?

When we could be teaching them the lessons the Adeptus Astartes offer? Lessons of courage, nobility, and honour? Human qualities that everyone can aspire to, not just boys.

Looking at other products in the market, Games Workshop stands out more and more as a place with outdated sexual politics. Privateer Press' “Warmachine” offers a wide variety of female models; both heroes and regular infantry. Wyrd's Malifaux game has a large number of female models. Granted, some are heavily sexualised, but not all. Infinity Games' “Infinity” range of models has the greatest gender equality... including it's Haqqilslam faction! Granted, these are smaller companies, but that makes it even more galling: why are the smaller companies capable of producing female models when Games Workshop isn't? There has to be some way for GW to release something for the female market, or even just for a male market that has frankly had to wait for female models for over twenty three years.

Complaints regarding it being too big a change to established canon are irrelevant, as nothing fictional can ever be too established. Everything can be changed, if the bottom line means ultimately more sales and more money.

There is a fine precedent for revising things as the styles and society's opinions change. A fine (and literary) precedent. Pretty much every single piece of long-term genre story uses these so-called “retcons”.

Sherlock Holmes dies fighting Moriarty at the Reichenbach Falls, and comes back despite Conan Doyle's personal hatred of the character.

Klingons used to look like Mongols in the original series of Star Trek, then in the films, they have massively ridged foreheads.

Anya in "Buffy" was a vengeance demon, and ended up dating Xander. Also in "Buffy", the character of Spike was called "William the Bloody" in season 1 of Buffy to make him sound scary. In season 5, this was retconned for comedic purposes, and it turned out he was actually known as "William The Bloody Awful" because his poetry was so bad.

Talking of vampires, what are their vulnerabilities? They always change, entirely depending on who's writing! Garlic, not garlic, silver, not silver, crosses, not crosses, Stars of David, reciting the names of your companions, bullets, stakes, sunlight makes them explode, sunlight gives them a rash, sunlight makes them itch, sunlight has no effect, they can't cross running water... The list never seems to end!

Daleks ran on static electricity channelled through the floor in the 60's and now they can fly; Cybermen were vulnerable to gold bullets and now they're not.

Batman is cold and ruthless in the 1920's, out and proud in the 60's, a rampant sociopath in the 1980's, and thoughtful treatise on social justice in the 2000's in Christopher Nolan's hands, a psychopathic child torturer in Frank Miller's.

DC comics "Crisis on Infinite Earths" saga was a way of retconning things they didn't like. Marvel's "Ultimate" line is a way of retelling the "classic" Marvel superhero stories so they make sense.

And lest we forget, a certain race of Space Dwarves have already been completely removed from the Warhammer 40000 universe.

Canon is what it has always been: what the company behind it says it is. It starts and ends with Games Workshop. At the end of the day, it is only a product, but an undeniably sexist one which treats it's fictional women with a cavalier disregard, and it's female customers with quiet surprise at best and outright disrespect at worst.

If some 13 year old boys complain that they don't want girls in their army, I would strongly argue that the GW marketing department are not doing their jobs. It's a product. Whatever you tell people is what it will become, and if you sell it hard enough, they'll buy it. I find it hard to believe the fans will readily accept as feasible immortal star gods, Bloodthirsters with axes so big they might as well be sharpened doors on sticks, and people treating science as magic, but not women who can use guns effectively.

In closing, I would like to thank you for taking time to read through this; I am aware it's extremely, perhaps excessively long, but these are things which I feel I need to express.

I hope you will act on some of the points I have raised. In my opinion, you have a moral duty to do so.

Yours in hope,

[BuFFo]

I read your entire post, but I don't believe you have any legs to stand on.

Warhammer 40,000 is a game based on war, and is marketed to males. This is no different than a product marketed for women. Why is it always women putting on lipstick in the ads?

Reality is, humanity is divided into two sexes, and as such various aspects of society will eb geared to one sex over the other. Trying to androgenize everything is not the answer.

The answer is to not allow a 7 year old girl partake in a hobby that is marketed for 12+ year old people. I find it odd that you take the opinion of a child just barely realizing Santas Clause and the Easter Bunny don't exist.

The answer is to just cope with the reality that purses are for women, giant Ford Pick Up trucks are for men (the female models have vanity mirrors in them, just fyi), dresses are for women, and 40k is for men.

Now, if you were to pick an aspect of society that does not require a sex, say, space exploration or politics, and fault it for being sexist, then I would agree. But Warhammer 40k is a game designed for males.

Now, where is your letter to Mattel complaining that Barbie doesn't have enough males playing with their dolls? :D :D

- edit -

Space Marines - Male
Chaos Space Marines - Male and Female (yeah, more females here than Marines, go figure)
Deamons - Male and Female
IG - Male (the one or two female models don't count, lol)
Sisters of Battle - Female
Eldar - Male and Female
Dark Eldar - Male and Female
Tau - Male and Female
Tyranids - No sex (aliens)
Orks - No Sex (fungus)

In 40k, females are represented quite strongly. It is the perspective that GW's flagship army, Marines, is all male that makes the game seem 100% male, when in truth it isn't.

[Melissia]

I doubt they'll respond, but I hope it gets to someone.

Also, cue flame retardant suit and douchebags who claim the hobby is for men and not for women.

Some men are just too stupid, ignorant, and/or misogynistic to realize that women are not a monolithic group.

edit: (see above)

[OXRS]

The answer is to not allow a 7 year old girl partake in a hobby that is marketed for 12+ year old people. I find it odd that you take the opinion of a child just barely realizing Santas Clause and the Easter Bunny don't exist.


A person who is in year (read: grade) 7 is not the same as a 7 year old person.

As to the OP's letter, I'm not in agreement as to the in-universe problems, but I do agree with the mentality of some store's staff. That's a discrimination problem, not a fiction problem, if it occurs. There's no reason the staff can't simply be welcoming to all genders and sexes. It doesn't happen everywhere, but there is a bit of a "boys only club" mentality that can crop up from time to time that has no reason to exist. It's not as common as it could be, but it's still not a good thing.

[gcsmith]

The hobby is for everyone. No one ever says otherwise unless they are complete idiots.
However, several qualms. You complain about dad and lads day, Now this complaint has no ground. Yes they mention lads, because they accept this is mainly a lads hobby.
Yes woman play it, and these woman should be intellegent enough to realise it isnt being sexist. Those who do, are taking political correctness to the level which causes problems in todays society.

And you also compain about no female products. In a game based around the 'dark ages'.
Fantasy being a fantasy medieval 'dark age' era.

You also go on to mention how the 40k universe mentions woman being genetically inferior.
While I dnt mean to cause any offence woman on the whole are generally have less musculature than men. This reason alone is why few woman are marines. Simply because the transformation is tooo rigorous for the average female body.


And 40k being a futuristic dark age. Now symbolic relationship to those era, is that woman generally don't fight.
This is just a matter of history, not sexism.

Overall while I see what you get at, your whole argument is void.
The fluff is based on real history.
The models are based on the fluff.
History shouldn't be twisted to make people feel better.
Ergo fluff should not be twisted to make it 'less sexist'.
Therefore, the model range should not change.

This whole argument is more politcal madness than valid points. Yes there are a lack of female models. But does that make it inherintly sexist, or is that you twisting things WAY out of proportion.

I do agree on the store members front tho, some peoples attitude needs to change, however ive never met any mean ones so must be your bad luck.

[BuFFo]

A person who is in year (read: grade) 7 is not the same as a 7 year old person.

"A young girl from year 7"

I am supposed to know this means 'grade' 7 how? It looks like a young girl who is 7 years old... I assume this is a term from the UK or something?


As to the OP's letter, I'm not in agreement as to the in-universe problems, but I do agree with the mentality of some store's staff. That's a discrimination problem, not a fiction problem, if it occurs. There's no reason the staff can't simply be welcoming to all genders and sexes. It doesn't happen everywhere, but there is a bit of a "boys only club" mentality that can crop up from time to time that has no reason to exist. It's not as common as it could be, but it's still not a good thing.

Yeah, in store discrimination is a problem, but, the reason it exists is because the staff's mentality is to sell models, and their target audience is to males.


The hobby is for everyone. No one ever says otherwise unless they are complete idiots.

I agree, the hobby IS for everybody, but when the board of directors get together to figure out their plans to sell more models and hobby supplies, I bet you anything that their target audience is not women.

[Gotthammer]

why not attitudes of men in the 40K universe towards women? The answer is, and can only be, that there is no good reason whatsoever.

The books are very respectful towards women and there are few cases in the background of actual discrimination based on gender, race or sexual orientation. Where it occurs it is seldom portrayed in a positive light.



(I would point out here the set of 10 Cadian female soldiers I saw for sale on eBay in the UK on the week beginning february the 8th 2010. 10 female torsos sold for £75. There were many, many bids. If eBay is the place to truly learn the value of your miniatures, then that surely teaches a stern lesson in money your company is simply not making.)

Counterpoint - that could just mean two people really really wanted them. I mean I've paid a fair whack for some stuff that would never see massed production or a re-release. It's not indicative of any demand for a GW kit.
A Forgeworld one would probably work, so I'd probably reword it to include them.




I feel that a key problem is, and has always been, that GW has a very sexist attitude and this comes out as a very sexist product, dealing in very stereotypically masculine power fantasies. Fantasy genres in general have a HUGE following amongst women (just look at the followings of Harry Potter, Twilight, et al – you may not like them, but they prove that as a commodity, fantasy is not a “males only” genre by any means); GW is not, and has never been, interested in catering to women

....

and less than half of Eldar are female (and even then, there is only a relative state of gender equality because of the debt Games Workshop's mythology owes to J.R.R Tolkein's elves. This underpinning mythology prevents the exclusion of female combatants from the Eldar. Sadly, it's not mythology invented by Games Workshop, so any claims that the Eldar represent forward thinking values are meaningless).


It doesn't come from Tolkien - through his works Eowyn is the only woman I can think of who actively goes to war. The great armies of the 1st age are all male, and the only really notable females are Melian, Galadriel and Luthien, none of whom are combatants. I can't think of any notable females in the Hobbit, and in LotR there's Eowyn and Arwen (and Galadriel again).
Basically everyone in Tolkien's legendarium is a dude.



Even Tyranids are overtly described as male (BroodLORD, SwarmLORD, and the older Genestealer Patriarch: masculine titles all.)

Might be worth mentioning that a large number of the other tyranid names are derogatory terms for women (http://awakeningynnead.blogspot.com/2009/09/tyranid-creature-names-and-their.html).



The Dark Eldar manage to have female models, but then undo all this with a combinations of outfits better suited to a strip club than the battlefield,

But so are the dudes, so it's an equal-opportunity freak-fest there.



as well as the undefendable Slave figures – according to the back story of the Dark Eldar, these are rape victims, but yet the models present them in alluring poses, and there are no equally subjugated male slave figures.

This then brings us to the issue of the remaining female models, who are almost without exception, portrayed as sexual perverse or religious lunatics, frequently both.

Agreed on this point.




At this stage, I must leave off from Warhammer 40, 000 proper and mention perhaps the most vile and explicit example of pure unadulterated sexism, which clearly dips it's toe into the filthy waters of outright misogyny. It can be found in the “Necromunda” specialist game. The Escher clan, the only gang with any female members could only do it because the males were “genetically inferior” and it is here where the implications reach deeply worrying levels of misogyny. According to the Warhammer 40000 universe as written every woman in the whole of Necromunda (and by extension, the whole human race) is “genetically inferior” to men. This is surely the definition of distasteful implications, which if they were about different ethnic groups would border on outright racism – the game genuinely argues that women are naturally weaker than men;

Unless they changed it the Escher males are actually inferior - like drooling idiot type of thing - so the clan formed into a matriarchy like the ancient Amazons due to the women being the only ones capable of doing anything. The conclusion that this means women are normaly inferior is a leap of logic too far, nothing says the other gangs can't have females and I know people who converted Eschers for their own gangs.

Remember that these models and their associated background are rather old - mid 90s - so having an entirely femal faction was HUGE at the time, even amongst the other mini lines (the only females at the time were the Banshees and Harlequins I think, SoBs came a bit later).
Miniature wise it was a time when plastic kits were almost unheard of, so while they could have done a single token female for the other gangs, I think it helped preserve the uniqueness of the Escher by having them the only females in the game.



Transformers is back, and there's still no "female" Transformer.

You might want to check that (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Female_Transformer). There's almost 100 canonical ones now (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Female_Transformers).



Looking at other products in the market, Games Workshop stands out more and more as a place with outdated sexual politics. Privateer Press' “Warmachine” offers a wide variety of female models; both heroes and regular infantry. Wyrd's Malifaux game has a large number of female models. Granted, some are heavily sexualised, but not all. Infinity Games' “Infinity” range of models has the greatest gender equality... including it's Haqqilslam faction! Granted, these are smaller companies, but that makes it even more galling: why are the smaller companies capable of producing female models when Games Workshop isn't? There has to be some way for GW to release something for the female market, or even just for a male market that has frankly had to wait for female models for over twenty three years.

Agreed, they're being left behind here.



If some 13 year old boys complain that they don't want girls in their army, I would strongly argue that the GW marketing department are not doing their jobs. It's a product. Whatever you tell people is what it will become, and if you sell it hard enough, they'll buy it. I find it hard to believe the fans will readily accept as feasible immortal star gods, Bloodthirsters with axes so big they might as well be sharpened doors on sticks, and people treating science as magic, but not women who can use guns effectively.

Ha ha, take that marketing department!



Interesting to hear if you get a response.

[Defenestratus]

The product and hobby of GW is presented as it is. Whether or not it is sexist is irrelevant. If you think it is sexist, misogynist or masochist, then it is within your right to not participate in it.

Nobody is being discriminated against. There is no rule in any Games Workshop rulebook that says that players must conform to certain criteria that nature itself dictates.

The fact that you feel that women aren't interested in GW products because they are too masculine says to me that you think that women are sheepish and cannot think for themselves.

[Gotthammer]

Yeah, in store discrimination is a problem, but, the reason it exists is because the staff's mentality is to sell models, and their target audience is to males.

Their target audience should be people with money (or people who's parents have money). Customers are customers no matter who they are and no matter what your selling (assuming it's legal to sell to them) [/10 year in retail sales]

[BuFFo]

Their target audience should be people with money (or people who's parents have money) whoever they are. Customers are customers no matter who they are and no matter what your selling (assuming it's legal to sell to them) [/10 year in retail sales]

My point has nothing to do with your point. WHo has the money is irrelevant because there is no way to KNOW who has money. Sales associates can only go off of what they know makes THEM money, and that is pestering their target demographic for the product.

This is no different than when I walk into a Department store with my ex to buy female items, do the sales associates come to me first? HELLS NO!!!! They go to their target audience so they can make commission.

"Excuse me sir, are you looking for a purse today" Is something I have never heard walking through malls.

:cool:


The product and hobby of GW is presented as it is. Whether or not it is sexist is irrelevant. If you think it is sexist, misogynist or masochist, then it is within your right to not participate in it.

Nobody is being discriminated against. There is no rule in any Games Workshop rulebook that says that players must conform to certain criteria that nature itself dictates.

The fact that you feel that women aren't interested in GW products because they are too masculine says to me that you think that women are sheepish and cannot think for themselves.

You couldn't write a more perfect answer if you took a year to do so... Bravo!

[OXRS]

I am supposed to know this means 'grade' 7 how? It looks like a young girl who is 7 years old... I assume this is a term from the UK or something?

Yeah, it's a term used in the UK and Australia, and other places I'm not aware of, I'm sure. Seeing as it's not used in the States, you had no way of knowing this. Now you do. No big deal. :P


I agree, the hobby IS for everybody, but when the board of directors get together to figure out their plans to sell more models and hobby supplies, I bet you anything that their target audience is not women.

Their target audience is a male demographic, yes. There's no way to argue that. That doesn't mean they have to make the store environment hostile to females, and sometimes it can be. Knowing who your target audience is has nothing to do with making sure your employees do not discriminate against any potential customer. There are plenty of men who wear dresses, to use your earlier example.

[Gibbtall]

I agree in part with this argument, I don't believe that the major problem is that the GAME is sexist, more-so that the employees and the customers are sexist (Not entirely intentionally). The game and it's back stories have grown over decades, it's its own entity and though it may paint a very "masculine" picture of the future, it (nor the people who are currently in charge of it) can't really be held at fault for it's stylized approach.

The problem that I have with Games Workshop is it's employees. Two female friends of mine recently strolled into a Games Workshop, both knew about the hobby through me, and one had a few models of her own. Within minutes of entering an employee asked "So do your boyfriends play?", taken aback by the obvious stupidity of the question, both said "No, we do" simply out of spite. Now, I wouldn't condemn an entire company for the words of a few employees, and I realize that there is a certain personality type that makes a good Games Workshop employee, but there are many things the company can do to emphasize, to employees and customers alike, that Warhammer and all of it's counterparts are fully open to both sexes.

[Gotthammer]

My point has nothing to do with your point. WHo has the money is irrelevant because there is no way to KNOW who has money. Sales associates can only go off of what they know makes THEM money, and that is pestering their target demographic for the product.

This is no different than when I walk into a Department store with my ex to buy female items, do the sales associates come to me first? HELLS NO!!!! They go to their target audience so they can make commission.

"Excuse me sir, are you looking for a purse today" Is something I have never heard walking through malls.

:cool:

You know who has the money by asking who is looking to spend:

"Do you need something or are you waiting for your friend?"
You never know, you might be looking to buy your mum/sister/cross-dressing alter ego a handbag while your ex browses ;)

If selling a handbag to a guy was the craziest way I've ever made a sale I'd be much happier :p


But regardless, if someone puts something down on your counter with the $$$, you don't make derogetory comments about it. Just because the vast, overwhelming majority of customers are male doesn't excuse poor salesmanship to a female client.
I've fitted a woman for a man's suit when I was selling those - if I sent her to womenswear I'd have lost the sale completely - it was a rather funny experience as she bought the same style and size as I was wearing, but her not being menswear's target demographic didn't stop me helping her and treating her like the 'normal' customers.

[OXRS]

I would just like to add that this sexist attitude is NOT universal. My wife goes into the local GW store more often than I do. She has had conversations with a specific female employee about each other's chaos, space wolf and dwarf armies, had conversation with various employees about various backgrounds topics and talked about various Black Library novels with one of the employees. She's never been made to feel excluded or not welcomed in that particular store. They've never assumed she was there for her boyfriend, even when she was there picking something up for me.

[BuFFo]

Their target audience is a male demographic, yes. There's no way to argue that. That doesn't mean they have to make the store environment hostile to females, and sometimes it can be. Knowing who your target audience is has nothing to do with making sure your employees do not discriminate against any potential customer. There are plenty of men who wear dresses, to use your earlier example.

Hostile? That is taking it a bit too far. As much as I hate GW Stores, I have never seen a GW employee tell a women to get the F out, or shoot them with an AK...

[Gibbtall]

Hostile? That is taking it a bit too far. As much as I hate GW Stores, I have never seen a GW employee tell a women to get the F out, or shoot them with an AK...

Please go Google the definition of Hostile.

[OXRS]

Hostile? That is taking it a bit too far. As much as I hate GW Stores, I have never seen a GW employee tell a women to get the F out, or shoot them with an AK...

Threatening is not the same as hostile and nobody has mentioned anything threatening except you. Perhaps hostile might be a little strong, but not by much in certain, rarer cases - which is what we're talking about. A hostile environment is an appropriate description from the perspective of a teenage girl who has to bring a friend along for support and has to ask if she's allowed to play. This is all semantics, and I'm sure you wouldn't agree but your perspective isn't the one we're discussing. If a person views the store as hostile, it is - in that case and for that person.

[UltramarineFan]

Right, well straight off I'll confess that I didn't read the whole thing as I was bored out of my mind as Im sure whoever the unlucky sod at GW who gets that will be too.
To clear up, year 7 in the UK is 11/12 years old.
Next point is that I'm 15 and find any talk of sexism incredibly dull and often inflamatory as it usually ends up as 'feminism'(I hope Melissia doesn't fall into this though judging by her earlier post I fear she might) instead of 'equality' (note the difference, ie I have no time for feminism)
Next, I wholeheartedly agree with Buffo that when it comes down to it, this is a product MADE by MEN, clearly marketed to MEN, so having a predominantly male aspect to the hobby is far from surprising.
Also your point about Grand Theft Auto is rubbish and not actually adequate(I am a teenager, I know what I'm talking about) find out how many girls have COD and then you can make a case.
There would probably have been more that I disagreed with but the fact i was too bored to carry on doesn't say much for you convincing me anyway.

[JxKxR]

I tried reading the whole thing but I got half way through then skimmed the rest and see your talking about Pokemon and Buffy and whatever...

I agree that Games Workshop can be sexist but, you have to understand that this game is full of people mostly guys. And most of these guys are... lets face it nerdy. (for the most part, excluding everyone here) And part of being a nerd is not being able to talk to women! Asking the girl if she was going to paint her army pink was probable him trying to break the ice. He doesn't know what not to say. I know you watch T.V. so you know that guys will say something they think is harmless and then a girl will get mad and the guys left standing there with a confounded look on his face asking "What did I say?" If a girl is going to play with the nerds then she has to make peace with that fact or she will just get all bitter like... never mind.

You also have to think of the grim dark future as the grim dark past. There were a few exceptional women who stood up to fight when they were needed, like that French lady! Then Games Workshop did give the tau commander shadowsun! That's a girl leading an army! Why don't you give them any suggestions to help them not be so sexist? Like talk about the brutality of the Amazons. I read a story about one Amazon lady impaling a British officer and then ripping another’s jugular out with her TEETH! That's the kind of girl the 40K universe needs.

[Melissia]

While I dnt mean to cause any offence woman on the whole are generally have less musculature than men.In actuality, women tend to put on weight when they enter into military positions, while men tend to lose weight. This is because of the societal pressures on women to stay thin and lean, and not physically active-- while there is physiological differences between a perfectly fit male and a perfectly fit female, the differnce is still quite a bit smaller than most people perceive. With proper training regimens, the substantial differences between men and women are reduced.

Though it is being found that training needs to focus on different areas depending on gender, there isn't as much research done on the subject as I'd like (it was somewhat hard to find military-funded research on the subject, most of it being done by the IDF).

[DarkLink]

...the game genuinely argues that women are naturally weaker than men

Just so you know, statistically speaking women are generally less physically capable than men. This does not mean that any given woman is weaker than any given man, but it does mean that if you pick a random man and a random woman off the street, the man is statistically likely to be generally more physically capable.

It's a matter of physiology. Women (due to certain anatomical features) have higher body fat percentages on average than males (roughly 10% more bodyfat, in fact, which is fairly significant). Women, on average, are physically shorter and less muscular, particularly in their upper body. Females have wider pelvic bones, which is less efficient for running than narrow waists. All of these add up to be a fairly large detriment to physical capacity, in exchange for being able to bear children.


Once again, this isn't to say that women can't be physically fit, or tough, or aggressive. It's just that, on average, women are physically weaker than men, and that's not a problem because a person's worth is not defined purely by their physical fitness.


Incidentally, there's some interesting related stuff here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military

[BuFFo]

A hostile environment is an appropriate description from the perspective of a teenage girl who has to bring a friend along for support and has to ask if she's allowed to play.

No, that is just part of being a young teenager.

I have people in my store ask if they can watch a game or play a game. There is no hostility there.


This is all semantics, and I'm sure you wouldn't agree but your perspective isn't the one we're discussing.

Try harder.


If a person views the store as hostile, it is - in that case and for that person.

And you can call a red rose blue all you want. It is still red.

Seems so easy for you all to jump on GW's back and call them hostile jsut for teh sake of an online discussion.

Like I said, I personally HATE GW Stores. I think they should all be torn down and turned into parking lots, but please, stop trying to make the store's environment feel as if women are in danger just by walking in the store.

I am sure that there is plenty of discrimination going on, but that isn't enough for me to paint all GW Employees as sexist retards.

[Melissia]

Next point is that I'm 15 and find any talk of sexism incredibly dull and often inflamatory as it usually ends up as 'feminism'(I hope Melissia doesn't fall into this though judging by her earlier post I fear she might) instead of 'equality' (note the difference, ie I have no time for feminism)

There is no difference.

Feminism is, simply put, a doctrine which advocates equal rights for women.

Ergo, if you are not a feminist, you do not advocate equal rights for women.

Society has placed some other connotations on the term, but that's because society is full of douchebags.

[DarkLink]

In actuality, women tend to put on weight when they enter into military positions, while men tend to lose weight. This is because of the societal pressures on women to stay thin and lean, and not physically active-- while there is physiological differences between a perfectly fit male and a perfectly fit female, the differnce is still quite a bit smaller than most people perceive. With proper training regimens, the substantial differences between men and women are reduced.


Yeah, the whole female side of commercial fitness, all that "toning and spot weight loss" stuff, is complete bull$#!t. Not that there isn't a lot of that on the male side, but men and women should be doing the same movements and exercised to get in shape, with weight scaled to individual needs. If the average female ever bothered to lift more than those little one kilo dumbells, they wouldn't have to ask their boyfriend to open the jar of whatever for them.


Incidentally, when you actually do find a woman who is genuinely physically fit, they are perfectly capable of some extremely impressive things. And, no, strong women don't look like those female bodybuilders normally.

[Melissia]

Yeah.

A lot of my fellow students worry that if they work out even just a little bit they'll bulk up, so they don't.

I guarantee you that has a HUGE impact on the physical fitness of the average woman, and thus how much time and effort it takes to make them combat-ready. An already athletic woman isn't going to take any longer than the average semi-athletic to athletic man to make combat-ready.

[DrBored]

In actuality, women tend to put on weight when they enter into military positions, while men tend to lose weight. This is because of the societal pressures on women to stay thin and lean, and not physically active-- while there is physiological differences between a perfectly fit male and a perfectly fit female, the differnce is still quite a bit smaller than most people perceive. With proper training regimens, the substantial differences between men and women are reduced.

Though it is being found that training needs to focus on different areas depending on gender, there isn't as much research done on the subject as I'd like (it was somewhat hard to find military-funded research on the subject, most of it being done by the IDF).

This is scarily true. My sister is gunning for a military career and she's gotten tougher than most of the guys on the same path. Navy Seals here she comes...

Anyway.

I just want to say one thing, really, honestly... And that's that... As much as the game may or may not be marketed to men...

I would love it if more women got into the hobby.

Just sayin'.

It would be pretty cool.

[BuFFo]

Right, well straight off I'll confess that I didn't read the whole thing as I was bored out of my mind as Im sure whoever the unlucky sod at GW who gets that will be too.
To clear up, year 7 in the UK is 11/12 years old.
Next point is that I'm 15 and find any talk of sexism incredibly dull and often inflamatory as it usually ends up as 'feminism'(I hope Melissia doesn't fall into this though judging by her earlier post I fear she might) instead of 'equality' (note the difference, ie I have no time for feminism)
Next, I wholeheartedly agree with Buffo that when it comes down to it, this is a product MADE by MEN, clearly marketed to MEN, so having a predominantly male aspect to the hobby is far from surprising.
Also your point about Grand Theft Auto is rubbish and not actually adequate(I am a teenager, I know what I'm talking about) find out how many girls have COD and then you can make a case.
There would probably have been more that I disagreed with but the fact i was too bored to carry on doesn't say much for you convincing me anyway.

You are one highly intelligent young adult.

I think you should get off of the internet immediately, because the longer you stay on it, the closer you become more like the rest of us...


I would love it if more women got into the hobby.

I agree, though with less clothing as well :)

[OXRS]

No, that is just part of being a young teenager.

I have people in my store ask if they can watch a game or play a game. There is no hostility there.



Try harder.



And you can call a red rose blue all you want. It is still red.

Seems so easy for you all to jump on GW's back and call them hostile jsut for teh sake of an online discussion.

Like I said, I personally HATE GW Stores. I think they should all be torn down and turned into parking lots, but please, stop trying to make the store's environment feel as if women are in danger just by walking in the store.

I am sure that there is plenty of discrimination going on, but that isn't enough for me to paint all GW Employees as sexist retards.

Nope. Not going to bother trying to convince you. You obviously have reading comprehension problems. I'm not talking about every GW employee in any way. I'm talking about specific, rare cases. You seem to lack an understanding of what hostile means. Hostility has nothing to do with danger, period. There can be overlaps, but you're applying threatening when I talk about hostility. Different things. I specifically cited an example for my local store being the opposite of the problem we're talking about, for crying out loud. How am I jumping on GW's backs and painting all of their employee's with the same brush? Most stores do not have a problem, but there have been cases where there ARE problems. I'd say nice try, Buffo, but it seems like you haven't even tried to pay attention.

[BuFFo]

Nope. Not going to bother trying to convince you. You obviously have reading comprehension problems. I'm not talking about every GW employee in any way. I'm talking about specific, rare cases. You seem to lack an understanding of what hostile means. Hostility has nothing to do with danger, period. There can be overlaps, but you're applying threatening when I talk about hostility. Different things. I specifically cited an example for my local store being the opposite of the problem we're talking about, for crying out loud. How am I jumping on GW's backs and painting all of their employee's with the same brush? Most stores do not have a problem, but there have been cases where there ARE problems. I'd say nice try, Buffo, but it seems like you haven't even tried to pay attention.

I like your shoes :)

I'm so broke I can't even pay attention!

Even in Hell I get no respect...

[gcsmith]

right, but no offense, but your writing about specific rare cases for what?
You said yourself they are specific and rare. So as a company not much they can do.

[Melissia]

Hostile can mean, in its most benign grammatical form, "unfriendly", "unfavorable", "resisted", etc.

And yes, hostility and sexism from GW employees is hardly unheard of. I know women who've had GW employees ask, for example, if they're buying the models for their boyfriend. I've been ignored by some employees while I was attempting to buy models before, when the same employee would stop and drop everything they were doing to sell something to a guy.

[gcsmith]

Since when is asking if they are buying for a boyfriend hostile, unfriendly or mean.
I played the hobby for 6 years before seeing a female gamer.
No offense but your not common per se, so questions like that are hardly being offensive.

[Sir Biscuit]

To be fair, his original point, that women generally are less muscular than men, is true. (Or at least less overtly, if you still want to argue that.) I think the most telling fact about that is that women aren't winning weightlifting competitions. I know female weightlifters are out there, and I refuse to think that they're not winning because they're not trying hard enough.

Anyway, back on topic, enough of this bull**** "game is marketed towards boys". It's not. NO ONE at GW is sitting around thinking "how do we get BOYS to buy our product?". GW's product is marketed to people who enjoy wargames, and that's all that can really be said about it.

And one more thing. If you're one of those people out there saying that girls need something else to be brought into the hobby, because girls don't find conflict/war/violence/etc. exciting, then you need to stop being sexist. Excitement and adventure are not gender-dependent, and women can find the violence and oppression of the 41st millennium just as appealing and exciting as men do. We don't need to change a ******* thing to "appeal" to girls so we can bring them into the game.

If you want a real reason why gals don't participate, it's because they simply aren't exposed to it as much as boys are. I think that is going to change as time goes on, and indeed, it already seems like it is. I think the sneering game store employee saying "This game isn't for girls!" is a strawman at best. NO ONE is making any kind of active effort to keep girls out, they simply aren't exposed to it, and have no reason to seek it out.

Edit: Holy crap page and a half got posted before I finished typing this. Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.

[JxKxR]

Hostile can mean, in its most benign grammatical form, "unfriendly", "unfavorable", "resisted", etc.

And yes, hostility and sexism from GW employees is hardly unheard of. I know women who've had GW employees ask, for example, if they're buying the models for their boyfriend.

I think you are jumping into your bad place when you hear this kind of question. Why does a girl have to be so offended when asked that? Could it not have been they were just wondering if the girl had a boyfriend?

[Entropic]

The Games Workshop employee mentioned in the OP was out of line, and GW can probably do a bit more to be sexually inclusive in its model line, but I don't think things are as bad as suggested in the OP, or that they should go to as great lengths to fix them.

I'm not completely familiar with IG fluff, but it would make perfect sense to me if they dragged off anyone who could hold a gun to boot camp, which would justify more female models. Space marines though seem like they should remain all male, and I think the OP is bending things to make the Sisters of Battle seem sexist. Although the OP takes exception to the idea that they're nuns (though clad in full body armor and carrying enough firepower to glass small nations), the background for the entire Imperium is that they're extremely religious (and violent), so this fits perfectly. The religous fanatics angle is one of the things I like about the fluff - I don't want to see that change.

Remember that the fluff is very grim dark. We're talking about cultures for whom racism and intolerance is their whole schtick. Does "Burn the heretic! Kill the mutant! Purge the unclean!" really suggest that they're equal opportunity employers? The 40k universe is filled to the brim with total jerks, and I rather like it that way.

tl;dr: Discipline the employees doing stuff wrong, add female models where it makes sense, but don't screw with the background just to shove them in.


You know who has the money by asking who is looking to spend:

"Do you need something or are you waiting for your friend?"
That it in itself could easily be taken as an insulting question. It can be very tricky phrasing statements that nobody will take offense to.

[BuFFo]

Anyway, back on topic, enough of this bull**** "game is marketed towards boys". It's not. NO ONE at GW is sitting around thinking "how do we get BOYS to buy our product?". GW's product is marketed to people who enjoy wargames, and that's all that can really be said about it.

The Demographic for GW products is males. It is in their yearly reports.


And one more thing. If you're one of those people out there saying that girls need something else to be brought into the hobby, because girls don't find conflict/war/violence/etc. exciting, then you need to stop being sexist. Excitement and adventure are not gender-dependent, and women can find the violence and oppression of the 41st millennium just as appealing and exciting as men do. We don't need to change a ******* thing to "appeal" to girls so we can bring them into the game.

Males are attracted to war and violence more so than women. It is in our nature.


If you want a real reason why gals don't participate, it's because they simply aren't exposed to it as much as boys are.

Because it is not MARKETED to 'gals'.

The second you see a Warhammer 40k advertisement in a Fashion Magazine, or Oprah's Magazine, or Vanity Fair, or Cosmo, come back to me.

[Aldramelech]

Ive read the whole post and while I think you've laid out your argument in a constructive and intelligent way I do feel it is flawed slightly.

You say that this 11 year old girl doesn't think that girls are allowed to play and then launch into your very lengthy post about sexism, unsuitable models, bad attitudes etc. etc. but the plain fact is that the little girl has never even been in the shop, so how is all of this making her feel "No Girls!". None of this has effected her, because she has never been exsposed to any of it.

The reason she might think that way is good old fashioned tradition and nothing to do with GW.

It is a fact, Girls traditionally play with fluffy toys, dolls etc. Boys play with models, guns, etc. THATS JUST LIFE.

Now I have an 11 year old (year 7, just for you Buffo! :)) Daughter and I would be thrilled if she took an interest in the hobby, but she just doesn't care because it aint about cute animals, Sexy pop stars, make up or hair straightners, to her they are my "Boring old soldiers" and no amount of female models would change her mind because they too would be "boring old soldiers" (Although she seems to have formed a Dr. WHO fixation at the moment, so I haven't given up yet!)

I would like to see sensible female guard models and I too watched with interest that ebay sale, it would give some much needed variety, but I dont see it overturning 100s of years of conditioning and tradition.

[Melissia]

I think you are jumping into your bad place when you hear this kind of question. Why does a girl have to be so offended when asked that? Could it not have been they were just wondering if the girl had a boyfriend?Because the question is assuming that I'm not into the hobby.

I am buying these models, this book, etc, for myself. The employee can go **** himself if he thinks otherwise.

[fuzzbuket]

after raeading this at some points i was shocked by the manner of the staffers @gw

i think the main problem is most of the GW staff (no offence intended to any ex staffers/current staffers) is that they have 0 socail skills

a wierd one is that when my mother was in GW last christmas purchasing 'legion' the staffer inquired if it was for her, and that women have a sence of:

nice shop with appropriately dressed staff and nice apperance and smell

to

OMDAKAFK[AOIFH{ALKFNPSAIUDGH{ THE SMELL< THE HORROR ,THE EMPLOYYES 0_0(lol joke)

-fuzz

[Melissia]

It is a fact, Girls traditionally play with fluffy toys, dolls etc. Boys play with models, guns, etc. THATS JUST LIFE.

Tradition can go suck an angry donkey dick.

[BuFFo]

Now I have an 11 year old (year 7, just for you Buffo! :))

OMG!! You gave me my weekly 'real life laugh out loud moment'!!! Thanks!!!

[JxKxR]

Because the question is assuming that I'm not into the hobby.

I am buying these models, this book, etc, for myself. The employee can go **** himself if he thinks otherwise.

Well could you calmly and with a smile say "Nope. It's for me." Does it have to go straight to Bleep you!!!! I know we play a war game and all, but it's pretend. We can be civil.

[Melissia]

I don't cuss people out IRL.

The internet is a place where one can let off steam without getting into trouble.

[Aldramelech]

Tradition can go suck an angry donkey dick.

And no doubt someone from Holland will make a movie of it, but its still there Im afraid and it wont go away my Testy Texan.

[UltramarineFan]

You are one highly intelligent young adult.

Haha, why thank you. :)


There is no difference.

Feminism is, simply put, a doctrine which advocates equal rights for women.

Ergo, if you are not a feminist, you do not advocate equal rights for women.

Society has placed some other connotations on the term, but that's because society is full of douchebags.

Huhuh, you realise this impression that society has come up with, true or not, comes from women aruging for 'feminist this and feminist that'? I remember one interview where the woman said she wanted 'a feminist world'. Now, I don't know why but it doesn't quite ring true with 'equality' to my ears, rather they don't care about equality just so long as women aren't below men, whether they're equal or above doesn't seem to be an issue. Oh and if society is full of douchebags then that means the douchenags are on your side of the argument as well so that's a strange stance to take.

[Melissia]

Much to the loss of sane and intelligent people everywhere.

[BuFFo]

I know we play a war game and all, but it's pretend. We can be civil.

No, not everyone can, which is a sad commentary in and of itself...

Huhuh, you realise this impression that society has come up with, true or not, comes from women aruging for 'feminist this and feminist that'? I remember one interview where the woman said she wanted 'a feminist world'. Now, I don't know why but it doesn't quite ring true with 'equality' to my ears, rather they don't care about equality just so long as women aren't below men, whether they're equal or above doesn't seem to be an issue. Oh and if society is full of douchebags then that means the douchenags are on your side of the argument as well so that's a strange stance to take.

The Sociological theory on Feminism changes over time, and in modern times, Feminism is more about equality for both sexes, and no longer just for women. Yeah, you can be a Feminist and fight for women's rights, but you are also a Feminist if you are either sex fighting for those same rights. So yeah, your views are correct in a modern context to Feminism.

And as a Feminist, I demand larger breasts on my Dark Eldar! Why are the men so buff and cut, but the women not as busty?

[Melissia]

Douchebags are douchebags. It matters not what gender they may or may not be. My opinions are my own, and I have no need to add qualifiers to them just because there are some who hold far, far more radical versions of them-- which I don't hold.

A feminist is simply someone who believes in equal rights for both genders. But then, I also believe in equal responsibility for both genders, but I doubt many of my fellow students would agree with having women register with the Selective Service System at age 18 :P

[isotope99]

I'm reading the Ciaphas Cain books, where they have a mixed regiment and I would love to see a new release of plastic valhallans with greatcoats and a mix of male and female guards- err - people:p.

[BuFFo]

I'm reading the Ciaphas Cain books, where they have a mixed regiment and I would love to see a new release of plastic valhallans with greatcoats and a mix of male and female guards- err - people:p.

I would love it if GW made more (ANY) female guard.

And if those female guard would go to a GW store, they would face a hostile environment as well... :rolleyes:

[Sir Biscuit]

The Demographic for GW products is males. It is in their yearly reports.



Males are attracted to war and violence more so than women. It is in our nature.



Because it is not MARKETED to 'gals'.

The second you see a Warhammer 40k advertisement in a Fashion Magazine, or Oprah's Magazine, or Vanity Fair, or Cosmo, come back to me.

Hahahaha, because 40k ads appear so often in men's publications, right? I can't name a one. In fact I can't think of ANY 40k tabletop advertisement that appears in a place meant only for men. Or really, one that appears outside of a game store.

The demographic for GW products is males, but that doesn't mean that the game only appeals to males, it just means that men are the ones who happen to play it. Do you honestly believe that games workshop designers are thinking "I'm going to design it this way, because boys think it's cool!"? No. They're saying "I'm going to design it this way, because I think it's cool."

And girls aren't attracted to war and violence? I guess that's why women don't like Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars, or Gundam, or OHWAIT

[JxKxR]

No, not everyone can, which is a sad commentary in and of itself...

Sad... very sad... But at least melissia doesn't go off on people like on the internet and if that is how she lets off steam then for the love of all that is good blast away! At least she's not going to GW stores and burning them down with everyone inside. Allthough Melissia I understand your rage at every little stupid thing people do and I have to say you have got to give people the benifit of the doubt. Yes people are mostly idiots but thinking about that all the time can give your world a really negative spin. Just what if the guy wasn't trying to be sexist?

[Aldramelech]

When all is said and done we are all geeks to the rest of the non gaming world, regardless of sex......

[BuFFo]

Hahahaha, because 40k ads appear so often in men's publications, right? I can't name a one. In fact I can't think of ANY 40k tabletop advertisement that appears in a place meant only for men. Or really, one that appears outside of a game store.

The demographic for GW products is males, but that doesn't mean that the game only appeals to males, it just means that men are the ones who happen to play it. Do you honestly believe that games workshop designers are thinking "I'm going to design it this way, because boys think it's cool!"? No. They're saying "I'm going to design it this way, because I think it's cool."

And girls aren't attracted to war and violence? I guess that's why women don't like Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars, or Gundam, or OHWAIT

You are correct on all points!

You got me!

[isotope99]

"You can't take away people's right to be a$$holes" - Wesley Snipes

[Aldramelech]

I would say that the OP is far more bothered by the issues raised then the 11 year old.

[BuFFo]

I would say that the OP is far more bothered by the issues raised then the 11 year old.

Exactly, why this entire thread is just one giant joke for post count upage!!

I bet that 11 year old forgot about 40k, and is currently playing My Little Pony Online.

[Melissia]

Exactly, why this entire thread is just one giant joke for post count upage!!

I bet that 11 year old forgot about 40k, and is currently playing My Little Pony Online.

Buffo, you're the only one who cares about post count. Stop trolling and let the adults talk.

[Silver Drakes Legion]

I have a problem with calling the sister's sexist. I mean the theme is very Gothic. Look at the buildings, The imperial Faith, and the entire structure of the 40k humans have overtly Gothic styling with futuristic somewhat archaic overtones. So a space marine can have laurels and festooned with awards on his armor while having large weapons. Then Sisters have a very stylized armor with the armor decorated with Gothic theme. They did dress in corsets and were very tight around the waist in the Victorian era so they went with it making it into power armor that was different then the power enhancing armor of the space marines. Just because a female or male doesn't understand the reasoning does not make it sexist. It does however make that person ignorant and not trying to decipher the reasoning behind the style. Instead they say it's sexist and move on remaining ignorant.

Slaanesh's new daemonettes are not women anymore but hermaphrodites because they are working to offend less. I mean they are supposed to be beautiful but strange models which the old one's were. I mean 15 years ago how would have painting hermaphrodites gone over as a hobby... Plus even 15 years ago we really didn't think of men as beautiful or sexy which are some of the ideas slaanesh is. So the hobby is evolving maybe not as quickly as one would like but oh well.

The books have very little sexism in fact either sex operates just as efficiently.

I do think you are right about some staff members and plenty of hobbyists but that is going to be a hard thing to train out of them.

[Melissia]

Just because a female or male doesn't understand the reasoning does not make it sexist.You're right.

It's sexist on its own merit.

Regardless, if they wanted to go for a gothic holy knights of the church feel (which is supported by the fluff in both editions that there are codices for) they should have gone with a platemail look.

Instead they went with a victorian era dress, which does not make one think of warriors in shining armor defending the faith.

So basically by your reasoning, it's either sexist or it completely misses its concept.

Either way, I say it's a failure.

[BuFFo]

I have a problem with calling the sister's sexist. I mean the theme is very Gothic. Look at the buildings, The imperial Faith, and the entire structure of the 40k humans have overtly Gothic styling with futuristic somewhat archaic overtones. So a space marine can have laurels and festooned with awards on his armor while having large weapons. Then Sisters have a very stylized armor with the armor decorated with Gothic theme. They did dress in corsets and were very tight around the waist in the Victorian era so they went with it making it into power armor that was different then the power enhancing armor of the space marines. Just because a female or male doesn't understand the reasoning does not make it sexist. It does however make that person ignorant and not trying to decipher the reasoning behind the style. Instead they say it's sexist and move on remaining ignorant.

Bingo! My Hero!!!!




I do think you are right about some staff members and plenty of hobbyists but that is going to be a hard thing to train out of them.

Maybe some soap, deodorant and manners can help the process...

[SonicPara]

Claiming that Games Workshop is sexist is stupid.

I agree that the hobby not-so-subtly excludes most women but it is not Games Workshop who does so, it is the player base in the hobby. Table-top gaming is dominated by stinky nerds who don't understand how to talk to a member of the opposite sex, a phenomena obviously caused by these socially bankrupt people failing to realize that not every conversation with a woman is related to attraction and sex. This hobby is not exclusively full of such aforementioned patrons but it is certainly dominated by them and saying otherwise is to be far too hopeful.

If you want to bring more women and more people in general to the hobby, the first step is to deal with the dominant patron-base. Games Workshop isn't responsible for making it so hard for new people to join the hobby, its the majority of players that make it so.

Why is everyone always so quick to blame a company?

[isotope99]

Claiming that Games Workshop is sexist is stupid.

I agree that the hobby not-so-subtly excludes most women but it is not Games Workshop who does so, it is the player base in the hobby. Table-top gaming is dominated by stinky nerds who don't understand how to talk to a member of the opposite sex, a phenomena obviously caused by these socially bankrupt people failing to realize that not every conversation with a woman is related to attraction and sex. This hobby is not exclusively full of such aforementioned patrons but it is certainly dominated by them and saying otherwise is to be far too hopeful.

If you want to bring more women and more people in general to the hobby, the first step is to deal with the dominant patron-base. Games Workshop isn't responsible for making it so hard for new people to join the hobby, its the majority of players that make it so.

Why is everyone always so quick to blame a company?

Hey! :mad: I had a shower last week, at least I think it was last week :confused:

[Grailkeeper]

To be honest I WISH WISH WISH games workshop target itself more at women. I devoted most of my teenage years to the hobby and lost out on a lot of the contact with young women many of my peers had at that age.( I went to a single sex school too) Happily I am more than making up for lost time now, but it would do absolutely no harm whatsoever to have more girls in the gaming store.

Whilst its a male only environment its a very specific type of guy generally who plays warhammer, if more women took part it would loose at least part of its nerdy image with the general public.

My two cents

[scadugenga]

I think the biggest problem with your letter, is that the key indicators are people and not the product.

Your complaint about the GW staffer is completely valid. However you need to be able to mention the staffer's name, the date of the incident and the location where it occurred for a complaint to have any merit whatsoever. Unless you can provide factual data re: incorrect and/or abusive behavior re: an employee, all you're doing is (unfortunately) spouting hearsay. And it won't be acted upon.

I have zero doubt that there is inappropriate and gender-biased behavior going on in GW stores, and gaming stores in general. Look to the demographic's archetypal lack of social graces and/or manners.

There should also be zero tolerance for these types of shenanigans. However, the time and place to take corrective action to address inappropriate behavior, whether it be employee or patron, is at the time of the incident.

A complaint letter days/weeks/months after the fact does nothing to create change.

[Drew da Destroya]

Once in a while, I get to use my English degree for something! Yay!

While I'm not going to overtly agree or disagree with your points or purpose, I'm going to go through your letter with an eye towards critiquing it, and helping you to make a stronger argument. Hopefully you find my comments helpful, and if not, well, it helped me kill a good hour and a half at work.

Not trying to be a jerk by multi-quoting, but it's really the only way to go through this and have it make any sense. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, or need me to clarify something.



While my addiction to the hobby has waxed and waned, it's not something I've ever truly given up. I doubt I ever truly will.

They aren't losing a paying customer over this, so why should they care? You don't have to outright say "I'm quitting if you don't change", because you then hit the other end of "Oh well, what's 1 disgruntled idiot?". You might want to rephrase to something along the lines of "[...]waxed and waned, but my recent observations have shaken my enjoyment of the hobby".



The most popular is currently the Xbox 360, and their favourite game is Grand Theft Auto (a game roughly as "masculine" as the various Warhammer universes, albeit in a different way).

You guys are still playing GTA? Britain is far behind! On a more serious note, GTA is a game with some seriously bad press (deserved or not), and probably doesn't strengthen your argument. You may want to do some research (ie, ask your students), and find out if more "PC" games are prevalent as well. Good examples would include the Halo or Gears of War series... both are very "male" oriented (Sci-Far wars, First Person Shooters, chiefly Male player-characters) but also have strong Female characters (well, Cortana is an AI construct, but is still undeniably female. And Anya from Gears is pretty badass). This lets you make a double point... girls are playing these games AND they have strong female characters to boot.


“So, are you going to be painting these pink, then?”

Others have made this point, and this is unacceptable behavior in a retail environment. However, I seriously doubt that GW corporate policy includes "be rude to women", and as such they can write this off as one employee, who probably doesn't even work for them anymore, was an idiot. I'd keep the example, and possibly include store details if they choose to look into the issue further, but this is more of an HR issue than a company policy issue.


Why is your product so sexist?

This is an Attack sentence, and will put anyone reading on the defensive. If I were reading this as a representative of GW, I would write you off at this point, and delete the letter. I'm sure they get plenty of hatemail every day, so I'd steer clear. Plus, the product is no more sexist than lipstick, your problem is the policy/environment that the product belongs to. Also, demanding "serious and immediate redress" is beyond the scope of one letter. You want to cause the reader to reach that conclusion themselves, not hit them over the head with it. I'd scrap the whole section, and endeavor to show the point throughout the rest of your letter.


Now, this little matter might seem like a quibble, but it's not. It's actually the tip of a colossal iceberg, and is simply the latest slap in the face to those of us who believe in progressive values and the inclusion of women and girls in a hobby that seems to make at best a lazy habit of ignoring them, and at worst, outright excludes them.


Be very careful of making accusations again. You want to show examples which do support your point of view, but you don't want to throw it in their face. This is a persuasive piece, and most people aren't persuaded by being figuratively slapped in the face. Remember your audience!


entirely [...] and secondly

"Entirely" and "Secondly" don't belong in the same paragraph... if point one was your entire point, then you can't have a second point. Just use "Chiefly", "Mainly", "Primarily", etc...



The answer that seems to be given is an in-universe justification that Space Marine genetic implants are incompatible with the female body.

This is only tangentially correct. I believe it was because the organs were incompatible with female hormones (obviously part of the female body); you should be specific to show your knowledge of their product. Gives you more credibility. Also, it's a perfectly reasonable "in-universe" justification, because it's a fictional universe, and that's the justification. It's not a "realistic" justification, though, because modern science would tell you that you could work around the hormones (plus women have plenty of testosterone anyway).



If it is simply a matter of getting a certain number of consumers to complain about an issue that causes your company to implement a system change, could we perhaps be told how many of these consumers are required?


Another attack sentence, and a spurious one at that. Obviously there is no quota of complaining consumers.



no male Guardsman has been released in a way to satisfy the Female Gaze.

This is patently incorrect. Both the Cadian and Catachan lines are full of men that could satisfy the Female Gaze. Overly muscled, burly jungle men? Check. Guys in uniform? Check. Even the faces are, in general, "handsome". Not too many are disfigured or scarred in a way that would make them unattractive.


The background tells us there are no female Space Marines, no female Orks, and less than half of Eldar are female. Even Tyranids are overtly described as male (BroodLORD, SwarmLORD, and the older Genestealer Patriarch: masculine titles all.) The Dark Eldar manage to have female models, but then undo all this with a combinations of outfits better suited to a strip club than the battlefield, as well as the undefendable Slave figures – according to the back story of the Dark Eldar, these are rape victims.

There are no Male Orks, either, so they're a bad example. They're a totally genderless race, and have been since 3rd edition. I don't know about the Craftworld Eldar, but the Dark Eldar are much closer to a 1-1 male/female ratio, and both races represent women in their standard armed forces (Guardians and Warriors both have female models, as well as more specialized troops). Specifically regarding the Dark Eldar, I assume you're criticizing Wyches specifically? While Wyche units do tend to be mainly female, there are also plenty of male models, in exactly the same type of outfits. It undermines your point when you're singling out one of the most gender-equal races as "sexist".

Minor point, it's unlikely that the slave models are Rape victims. Far more likely that they're going to be tortured. Dunno how much raping the Dark Eldar really bother with, and it's not really a point of their background (for obvious reasons, this is still a game designed for adolescents). I'm not saying that the models themselves don't help your point, but I wouldn't include the "rape" part.

I should point out that one of the most important Tyranid bio-constructs is the Norn Queen... to which all of those Lords are subservient. I'd be careful about using the Tyranid as a sexism example for that reason alone.



Yes, arguably the Space Marines are monks, but they aren’t called “Space Monks”, while the title “Sisters” of Battle makes the religious connotation utterly explicit.


The Marines are pretty consistently referred to as "Battle Brothers". This can really go either way... either drawing out the Monk-ish connotations, or that they fight together as "brothers". The same can be said of the Sisters... either religiously, or that through the shared experience of combat, they view each other as sisters. As a result, the religious meaning isn't explicit, that's just an inference you're drawing, possibly as a result of the rest of their background material (they live in Convents, leaders are "Sisters Superior", they are the armed forces of the Ecclesiarchy, etc...). Those are all much better points than using the word "Sisters" to imply religious connotations.


While Catachans have naked chests, they do not go to war in their underwear. They still have the dignity of trousers!


I don't think this helps your point... Catachans [I]are [/I ]going to war half naked, even if it's mainly because of a macho stereotype created by movies like Rambo and Predator. If anything, that points out anti-male sexism within the Catachan line, and is just distracting to your central point.


(Case in point: the Witch Hunters codex lists Troops choices which are all female, but yet over half of the HQ's and Elite choices are male!).

This doesn't really mean anything. The Inquisitor and Priest choices are not gender-specific (although the models are, which is something you could make a point out of). In fact, the only gender-specific choices are the Sororitas heroine, Celestians, and Sisters Repentia (who are even more bondage-gimp than the regular Sisters, and a huge SNM-themed unit). There are points to be made about the unit choices, but not the ones you're trying to make.


I haven't even mentioned that the Sisters of Battle line has currently been withdrawn.

Except that you have now, and we all know it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a primarily-female line. They're also a very old, out of date codex, with an out-of-date model range which is supposedly being re-worked for re-release. If you're not going to mention it, then leave it out. Especially since it in no way supports your argument, and is really just being snide and attempting to draw implications where there are none. Stick to legit points.


Returning to the only armies that feature a significant number of female models we have the Eldar[...]. Now while on the surface, both of these forces do feature many more female models than other armies, there is a clear underlying message - that women can only be considered effective combatants if they've got superhuman powers, otherwise they have to stay home (and perhaps have the babies before cleaning the kitchen.)

This is wrong again. Both Eldar armies have female models in their standard army troopers (Guardians and Warriors), and can only be described as "superhuman" because they aren't human. Guardians especially are a good example of female equality, as they're literally the armed citizen militia of a craftworld... normal civilian women, ranked equally with civilian men in terms of their duty to defend their homes. They're considered just as effective in combat as males of the same race.

Your Slaaneshi points, however, are good. Monstrous women emasculating men. But I think any examples attempting to show the Eldar or Dark Eldar as promoting sexism is going to weaken your overall argument.


Necromunda Stuff

I can't really comment on Necromunda, since I never played it, nor had any of the rulebooks. I'll leave critique of this section to others.


Financial stuff, wherein you make quite a few points, albeit at great length

Most of your financial stuff makes sense, but remember that not everyone will be willing to read through the whole section. TL;DR is a legitimate concern here, and you'll need to be concise if you really hope that your message will get through. Walls of text turn people off.

Cut some of the extra examples and asides (especially in the "Retcon" section... while I appreciate the Dr. Who reference, you don't need ALL of these). Other people have pointed out that your Transformers example is wrong (plus, why are you criticizing Hasbro in your letter to GW?), and make sure you're keeping out any "attack sentences". They're unnecessary, and distract the reader from your purpose... plus, it makes them angry, and thus less receptive.


If some 13 year old boys complain that they don't want girls in their army, I would strongly argue that the GW marketing department are not doing their jobs.

This is a double-attack sentence... hitting both GW and their fanbase. Not really necessary.



In closing, I would like to thank you for taking time to read through this; I am aware it's extremely, perhaps excessively long, but these are things which I feel I need to express.

I hope you will act on some of the points I have raised. In my opinion, you have a moral duty to do so

Don't draw attention to how long it is... they already know. The last sentence also strikes me as pretty presumptuous... they don't have a moral duty to do anything in this letter. I might try to end it on a more "this is a positive critique, outlining some things that I think you may want to take a deeper look at, in the hope that it will be mutually beneficial to both yourself, and your fan base". Obviously rephrase that a bit, but I think it ends the letter less on the "accusatory", and more on the "helpful and persuasive" side of things.


/end biggest post ever.

[Melissia]

Actually the Halo series is very good when it comes to gender equality.

[Drew da Destroya]

Actually the Halo series is very good when it comes to gender equality.

True... that was part of the point I was making when I suggested using it as an example (over GTA). Probably didn't come across, but I think both series have strong male and female characters (beyond just the 2 I cited), with neither gender really being raised above the other in terms of capability.

Whereas GTA falls back on plenty of sexist (and racial) sterotyping, overall weakening his letter.

[JxKxR]

Actually the Halo series is very good when it comes to gender equality.

Yeah and GW needs to look into making a sleeker armour for the girls like Halo did. I've seen it discussed else where but the booby armour of Sisters of Battle doesn't help them but hinders them. The sculptors need to realize you don't have to put boobs on a model to get across that it's female. If I was sculpting them I would make them just a slim downed space marine like halo did. I would also give them helmets. The way to not be sexist for GW is to not look at them as girls but as warriors and give them some armour that they can throw down in.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Gotthammer: thankyou for providing additional data. You make a number of excellent points that I definitely agree with, and will use to adapt this letter.

Drew da Destroya: that was exactly the criticism I was hoping for. :) I have to say that I agree with all of your criticisms. The main problem I had with this was not being able to see the wood for the trees; I knew it didn't work, but I've been working on this for a while now, and I couldn't quite see why.

Time to go back through and make some changes.

Cheers bud :)

Oh, off-topic - to answer those people (UltramarineFan) asking questions about whether any of the girls are into COD:

Yes they are. Modern Warfare 2 is the multiplayer game of choice amongst years 8 to 11, and Black Ops has excellent word of mouth. Entertainingly, most of the girls who play have stories about how their brothers refuse to play them once the girls beat them. The current ratio of male-to-female gamers for COD is about 60-40.

[Lane]

Feminism is, simply put, a doctrine which advocates equal rights for women.

Ergo, if you are not a feminist, you do not advocate equal rights for women.

Society has placed some other connotations on the term, but that's because society is full of douchebags.

Doctrine and Practice are often quite different.

Groups fighting for equal rights will seldom settle for equality.

Laws that are meant to enforce equality instead force inequality.

[L192837465]

Yes! I demand equal rights for women in a game designed to sell exclusively to men! Affirmative action will strike again! If we revolt, they'll change their practices! Rabble rabble rabble!


I also demand that there be men in provocative clothing (Read: nearly nothing) while modeling in front of sports cars and motorcycles! Speaking of which, I demand that minivans and SUVs be advertised to men!

I demand Cosmo to start writing articles about how to arouse woman in every edition!

I demand that people stop being retarded and get over the fact that there are target audiences, and nothing is stopping you from buying or doing with what you purchase what you want!

[Melissia]

So you're saying that the first amendment of the U.S. constitution, which protects the freedom of religion-- IE, all religions are equal in the government's eyes-- enforces inequality?

[Melissia]

[snip]Well, THAT was eye-roll inducing.

You know, asking for a company to give you reason to give it money is the basis for capitalism.

[Koppenflak]

Sounds like you have a problem in the UK. I can't say its a problem shared in Australia.

I've seen quite a few girls in the FLGS playing everything from Sisters (no brainer) to Tau and even Black Templars. They've been treated no differently from any other customer, and never once have I seen the lads at Miranda, Sydney, Macarthur or Hornsby patronize or condescend to them. If anything, it's been the total opposite, and they've provided nothing but encouragement.

I hope your letter manages to do something about the t*** who did do as you described.

[JxKxR]

So you're saying that the first amendment of the U.S. constitution, which protects the freedom of religion-- IE, all religions are equal in the government's eyes-- enforces inequality?

In a way it does. To be protected under it the religion has to be classified a religion by the government. So some religions are not called religions they are just called cults.

[Drew da Destroya]

No problem, man, glad to help. You're an English teacher, so you know a first draft can benefit a lot from some extra eyes... which is probably why you posted it in the first place.

[DarkLink]

In a way it does. To be protected under it the religion has to be classified a religion by the government. So some religions are not called religions they are just called cults.

That usually happens when the cult members try sacrificing a few virgins:p


Yes they are. Modern Warfare 2 is the multiplayer game of choice amongst years 8 to 11, and Black Ops has excellent word of mouth. Entertainingly, most of the girls who play have stories about how their brothers refuse to play them once the girls beat them. The current ratio of male-to-female gamers for COD is about 60-40.

That's probably because 8-11 year old boys probably still think girls have cooties:rolleyes:. I wouldn't expect a mature response from an immature audience.

[ursvamp]

Warhammer 40,000 is a game based on war, and is marketed to males. This is no different than a product marketed for women. Why is it always women putting on lipstick in the ads?


This is not a comment to directed as aresponse to your above comment, mr. Buffo.
I'm just using it as a starting point for what I want to say.

Having a game where most of the things have males the target audience, is really no real reason not to target parts of it towards females.

A wargame seems, to me, to actually be the perfect setting for marketing to both genders.
It's been pointed out already that it isn't "Men" that is the prime audience. it's "People (or possibly "men") who enjoy wargames". Since this is a pretty narrow target as it is, and there obiously are women interested in this hobby too, there is actually no reason why some aspects of it can be targeted more towards women and some more towards men.

to illustrate my clumsily presented point: GW could Easily create and sell a Space Marine chapter consisting exclusivley of Women who's recieved the geneseed-treatment. With either a female originator (primarch?) or one already existing. Call them Astro Amazons or something. They could get some kind of gimmicky play style (like lots of hit and run rules, or excelling in ranged weaponry with alot of relentless or special kind of long range weapons. Really anything to seperate the play style a little bit á la SW or BA.).
Would the only people buying this new SM Chapter, consistince soley of female models, be women? Most probably not.
Could they be art-directed/invented/angled more towards a female target audince? Yes.

Add in that the Imperial guards ARE gender equal according to fluff (or so I've been told), so just add alot of female models to them in the future(something alot of current players would appreciate), and we are well on our way to a more gender friendly envoirment where the love for the hobby comes first, and what gender the Nerd indulging in it belongs to comes far further down the list of what's relevant.



Anyway, at MaltonNecromancer:

I REALLY like this letter. And I'm so happy to hear you actually doing something and standing up for what'simportant to you :)
Also, I'm not sure how your going to mail it, but I'd recommend regurlar mail, and not e-mail. as I've heard some rumour about GW taking written letters far more seriously than e-mails.
But to be sure (or on the safe side) probably better send it both ways :) (or at least by regular mail, if only one of them ;) )

Cheers!

[Drew da Destroya]

A written (or typed) letter shows some level of commitment, and that you took the time to actually write out your thoughts. It also shows that you took the extra effort required to actually mail it... it does show that you went the extra mile, instead of just being some yahoo with a gmail account (ba-dum *crash*).

Whether or not it'll be more likely to get notice? No idea.

[eldargal]

Letters like this are far more counter-productive than anything else. All they do is annoy the more insecure and idiotic of the male playerbase and spur them on to making stupid and sexist claims themselves.:rolleyes:

Wargames ARE predominately a male hobby, and GW recognise this. This is not the same as being sexist in any shape or form. I'm all for getting more girls into the hobby, and have said as much on many occassions. But accusing GW of being sexist is not the way to go about it, in fact beyond releasing a few more female figures, where warranted (which is another issue) I think it is in the hands of individual clubs more than the corporation itself.
All GW can be expected to do would be do a decent job of Codex: SoB and support it to a great extent than previously, and perhaps release a few more female models for armies that can justify their presence (Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG etc).

[Gir]

I cann't believe I read this whole thread, what a ******* waste of time.

OP's entire argument seemed to stem from social expectations (the 12 year old not knowing if she can play), then to a completely context-less anecdote about a friend that a salesman was rude too. As far as we know, it was a joke that went over the head of the offended.

The key demographic for GW products is men. This is not debatable, the company themselves have stated this. No game systems are marketed at men or women, because the company doesn't market full stop. It's once again back to social expectations.

The arugment about asking "Is it for a boyfriend" or whatever just makes me depressed in the human race that this could be an argument at all. 95% of people through a GW store are men, and more then 90% of that 5% of women will be buying for a boyfriend/child/brother etc. The staffer is merely trying offer the best advice he can, and is trying to work out your connecting to the hobby in the most direct way possible, you just happen to fall in a demographic that's less then 1% of the people the staffer deals with. I also don't see how it's any different to staffers asking me if I play or collect (Which I have been for 15 years). It's about finiding information on the customer to provide the best service possible. If you get angry at questions like this, you're what the industry call an "Arsehole customer".

My own expereince with girls and GW stores in my area are nothing but positive. My girlfriend doesn't get treated any different to any other person in the store, the same with my other female friends who play and shop there. Maybe I'm in a monority, or this whole think has be blown out proportion.

But anyway, in closing, this letter is a waste of time. Nothing is in context, anecdotes lack evidence, you argue points that have nothing to do with the company, and around the middle you come off as a creepy old guy who just wants models with boobs on them.

[pinchy]

Since when is asking if they are buying for a boyfriend hostile, unfriendly or mean.
I played the hobby for 6 years before seeing a female gamer.
No offense but your not common per se, so questions like that are hardly being offensive.

I was once asked by a retail assistant if I was buying something for my girlfriend when I was browsing a women's clothing store (the answer was yes just for the record), wasn't offended, really didn't care in the slightest- was actually a good thing seeing she helped me find something that was well received when it came time to give the gift.

I agree that a better approach would be for a GW employee to ask what army the female customer plays or to ask if they needed help and let them volunteer the information that they are buying something as a gift if that is the case, but really if we are going to start a best practice list then this would still be pretty far down my list of things to improve on.

[eldargal]

Well, I must admit being asked if I'm buying something for my boyfriend in the same GW stores I've been into for years does get annoying. Especially since no one bothered to inform me I had a boyfriend, very unsporting. I don't believe it is warranted either, you could easily ask "Are you buying it for someone?" which solves any issues entirely. But its a minor annoyance, I don't exactly lose sleep over it. Also, great laughs at watching their reaction if I say something like "No, its for my girlfriend".:rolleyes:

[Aldramelech]

Now and again I ask the wife to pick stuff up for me if shes passing. Now my wife has zero interest in the hobby and cant stand going into GW. I have to write down what I want so she can give it to the staff and they get it for her.

Now the reason she dont like going in? Ive figured out that she doesn't like being asked ANY questions, as far as she is concerned she just wants to walk in, hand over the list, pay and leave. Now the guys are just being helpful but asking my wife "What army does your husband play?" is like asking her "Who scored the winning goal in the 1976 cup final?" She doesn't know and she doesn't want to know. I think that its also a very obviously male enviroment, the staff are male, the customers are male and SHE see's the shop as the preserve of males.

She always says that she expects someone to turn and point at her and say "Ugh Wooman!"

But I have to say that these problems are hers, its her baggage and not in any way the shops fault, the staff are always polite and helpful, its well lit and right in the high street, not too crowded and clean. Its HER perceptions that are the problem.

[reynor]

At my local GW Battle Bunker, two of the five staff members are women. They are both long time participants in the hobby. So either the local manager is a genius (because these women are really good at relating to mother$) or GW is not inherently "broken" in regards gender equity.

[Duncndisorderly]

Having read the entire article I find myself a little Torn.
On the one hand I see the point that is being made and agree to a certain extent. But on the other hand I think it has to be recognised that GW's target audience is predominantly male.
Personally i'd love too see GW make more characters pieces in the pantheon of hero's ands villains be they troop, HQ or otherwise with an eye to attracting more ladies into the hobby but not at the risk of alienating there main income stream.
I think we can all agree that would be bad mmmkay.
I also agree for the most part that the female characters that are available are overly sexualised, (Lelath Hesperax or a six boobied slanesh daemonette anyone)I think the real problem is that the writer of the letter wants to see a more sensible approach to the female pieces out there, corsets for space nuns clearly do not fit into that category.
if GW are looking for an easy out they should do as follows.
All space marines can be male or female.
The armour remains exactly the same thus they can claim that entire legions are females without the expense of issuing new model ranges.
This actually fits nicely into the real world today. when watching the news when was the last time you saw a female soldier wearing a figure hugging flak jacket, be honest when the helmets on it could be anyone in that uniform male or female.
Apply the same logic to Orks, can you tell a male or femal apart when there all hairy and green?

[eldargal]

Actually as far as making the hobby as approachable as possible for women I think SoB should be as close GW goes to female Space Marines.

Well supported Codex: Sisters of Battle with largely plastic range.
Female Imperial Guard plastic/resin.
Female Eldar, IG and (obviously) SoB characters. Iyanna Areinal springs to mind, she was a special character, bring her back and give her a model.

These three things would make Games Workshop wargames, and by extention the rest of the hobby, much more accessible to females without alienating any of the existing playerbase.

[RebelGrot]

The attitudes of GW staff and the lay out of the universe and fluff are very different things.

I think pretty much everything has been covered one way or another already from the OP letter and I've just read 8 pages of comments so I'm not going back over it all.

That staffer, and any staffer in fact, should know better. The paint it pink comment was definitely misplaced.

The problem with GW staff is that they're nerds trying to be salesmen. Everything's very direct - within 30 seconds of entering the Manchester store last week I'd been approached and asked "what was it you're buying today" - I just wanted a look at the new DE. Whether it's me or a female customer a little bit of chat goes a long way - that way they'd often find out if the customer knew their stuff or was more likely shopping for something else.

Anyway, sales techniques aside, I've never witnessed either of the above examples and the (few) girls I have seen in GW stores have always been welcomed the same as the boys so here's hoping these examples are few and far between.

The 40k universe is sexist to an extent. Yes Space Marines are all male. So what?? Should we get some boys into Sisters of Battle squads? I'f we're going to do that lets make every squad 50% each so we all know how politically correct the new model range is.

While that's getting a little carried away (although if equality is to be improved it does work both ways) I do think that IG could represent the sexes a bit better as they draft from whole populations and female characters are represented throughout their fluff. BUT (there's always a but) how is that then modelled to represent female guard so we all know how equal things are? Overly 'sexualised' models (Last Chancer in a crop top and mini skirt) are a bit cheesey but put any woman in military fatigues, a flak jacket and a helmet and, apart from a few inches in height, Mr and Mrs Cadia are going to look damn near identical.

Similarly the argument in the OP letter regarding Sisters. Why shouldn't they be in a stylised armour? Does sexual equality mean that men and women in power armour must all look exactly the same? Androgyny for the warriors of the Imperium, so how will we tell them apart?

You could go on about these things forever but it's pointless. The miniatures all generally represent some kind of stereotype - men are big and strong (Marines), muscular and rugged (Catachan); women are sculpted with small waists and wear lipstick to was (Sisters) or have additional 'chest bumps' on their armour (Eldar). What the game doesn't do is make female characters into sex objects, nor does the fluff ever point out women stay at home and can't do what the men do. Quite the opposite; while admittedly the majority of lead characters are male those that are female are driven, head strong and intelligent, and more than capable of holding their own against an Average Joe.

At the end of the day I know a handful of female gamers and, as far as I know, none have ever considered the game sexist. I also don't believe GW is sexist (my local GW manager is also a lady). The opinion of the odd staffer cannot always be excused but I don't feel the need to ta a company with the same brush.

Finally the year 7 girl isn't worried it's a boys only club because they're all playing with male based models, it's because it's a room full of (presumably) 11-16 year old boys and not one other girl. To be the only girl in that situation would lead to her feeling potentially excluded. This is something for group leader (the OP poster) to address as part of that meta game, not GW.

[DarkLink]

But its a minor annoyance, I don't exactly lose sleep over it. Also, great laughs at watching their reaction if I say something like "No, its for my girlfriend".:rolleyes:

I can totally see you doing that, too:D

[BuFFo]

9 pages in, and by and by a rather civil discussion concerning such an internet hot topic.

There are a few bad apples who tried to be little snots, and we know who they are, but the majority of you, with such vastly different opinions from each other, have been very adult about handling this.

Good job! Thumbs up! Yeah!

[MaltonNecromancer]

I must agree with you, and also take the time to thank everyone who has participated in the discussion so far; there are many things here I had not considered, both for and against. While I have seen nothing so far that has given me cause to change my position, I have seen some robust dismissals of certain points I made (which is exactly what I was hoping for), and well as some additional things I had not considered. A genuinely solid discussion. Yay for BOLS!


Well supported Codex: Sisters of Battle with largely plastic range.
Female Imperial Guard plastic/resin.
Female Eldar, IG and (obviously) SoB characters. Iyanna Areinal springs to mind, she was a special character, bring her back and give her a model.

These three things would make Games Workshop wargames, and by extention the rest of the hobby, much more accessible to females without alienating any of the existing playerbase.

This (as well as lots more female opponents), is all I ask. All Marines need is a change to the fluff and some female heads (a Boudicca-style captain would be nice too :)); same for the IG (a sergeant in the style of Alter Tse'elon from "Y: the Last Man" would be particularly cool). A redesign of the SoB armour to make it less bedroom-y and more armour-y. Overall, I think that's the thing; the changes wouldn't need to be spectacular or base-breaking. just a few little bits of grey plastic you can ignore if you don't want to use them.

[UltramarineFan]

Oh, off-topic - to answer those people (UltramarineFan) asking questions about whether any of the girls are into COD:

Yes they are. Modern Warfare 2 is the multiplayer game of choice amongst years 8 to 11, and Black Ops has excellent word of mouth. Entertainingly, most of the girls who play have stories about how their brothers refuse to play them once the girls beat them. The current ratio of male-to-female gamers for COD is about 60-40.

Thank you for answering that, given that information I concede that it is a valid point.

However I disagree SO much on female marines, the whole concept immediately hits me as stupid and unnecesary. On the other hand you make fair points for SoB which I agree with completely.


I devoted most of my teenage years to the hobby and lost out on a lot of the contact with young women many of my peers had at that age.( I went to a single sex school too)


Yes well that's actually quite an easy situation to avoid so I feel sorry for you if that's how things worked out but it is not that common, at least certainly with the people I know who are into the hobby. (I go to a single sex school too).


As for the feminism points(forgot to multi-quote them) I have stipulated my views on the issue all I can do now is repeat my self.

[Lane]

So you're saying that the first amendment of the U.S. constitution, which protects the freedom of religion-- IE, all religions are equal in the government's eyes-- enforces inequality?

First amendment does not "protect" any one group. OTOH it does allow certain groups to act badly then claim Freedom of Religion protects them from retaliation.

[lowdog]

My two cents:

The repeated appeals to the game as marketed to males miss two of the OP's points about becoming more socially responsible in your marketing. This reminds me of the sexual discrimination cases brought against airline companies hiring only female fight attendants. The response at the time was that they catered to businessmen that wanted to be waited on by attractive females, and they would lose business by being forced to hire men. American courts rejected the argument, saying that the prejudices of your customer base are never sufficient basis for discriminating yourself. The world didn't end, these companies didn't go bankrupt (okay, some airlines have, though I haven't seen any indication it's only because they didn't have female only flight attendants as opposed to just bad business practice). At this point it seems that most people don't bat an eyelash at being served their half a can of coke and single peanut by a man dissatisfied with his salary as opposed to a woman dissatisfied with hers. The point is that allowing businesses to fall back on their customer's prejudices merely reinforces those prejudices, whereas pushing businesses to confront and change those attitudes causes a similar shift in society at large.

Buffo, you said that little boys historically get guns and little girls get dolls (I'm paraphrasing). I think you're mistaking cause and effect. Parents might buy their little goy a gun because it is historically viewed as a boy toy, whereas they might refuse or more insidiously just not consider doing so for their little girl because it just isn't traditional. Like painting the nursery pink or blue based on the baby's gender. Purchasing toys or clothes with a historical value set in mind just perpetuates those values without any reflection on whether those values are actually worthwhile. This in turn causes little boys to develop more aggressively, and it becomes a cycle.

The other point being missed about the marketing to men is that, as the OP said, they are missing out on potential sales. I haven't seen anyone argue that GW will lose more male customers than they will gain female customers by trying to alter their product line to be more progressive. One could argue that but I haven't seen any market research to support that point, and the OP was pointing to the success of other fantasy products among the female demographic (like Twilight or Buffy) as evidence of why such a move might be lucrative. If GW is just trying to make money, there's reason to believe there is money to be made by trying to market to women. It's not hard to imagine some executives at Nike balking at the idea of developing the Nike Women line back in the day, but that has proven to be amazingly profitable.

[JxKxR]

I just had an idea on how women could take a more positive role in the existing 40k universe, while still keeping the same fluff and brutallity of the far future intact. Now bare with me on this one because I'm not to sure on all the details of the fluff.

So women are not being treated with the respect they deserve? Well respect isn't given it's taken! What if the women of 40k decided to band together and start a rebellion? They wouldn't be chaos they would just be rebels fighting for their freedom from men, or maybe they think they should be the dominate ones??? What do you folks think?

[gcsmith]

u realise social experiments show that as babies girls prefer dolls and boys prefer guns and trucks. its not just historical sterotype.

Eitherway This is a good cival discusiion, though i disagree in changing the marines fluff and existing model range just to be 'politcally correct'.
There is no need. All GW needs is some staffers to get a grip and know females play.
Not to change the hobby to deal with some girls into the hobby.
If girls can only play with female models then maybe they shouldnt be in the hobby. They should be willing to play with the models at hand.
However, I agree there could be female models, but not at cost of fluff.
And at end of day, its up to sculpters. Its more about ease of sculpt. and coolness of models.
As such they will never take any action over this letter unfortunetly.

[Drew da Destroya]

I just had an idea on how women could take a more positive role in the existing 40k universe, while still keeping the same fluff and brutallity of the far future intact. Now bare with me on this one because I'm not to sure on all the details of the fluff.

So women are not being treated with the respect they deserve? Well respect isn't given it's taken! What if the women of 40k decided to band together and start a rebellion? They wouldn't be chaos they would just be rebels fighting for their freedom from men, or maybe they think they should be the dominate ones??? What do you folks think?

That'd be introducing a whole new army, model range, and backstory, which isn't something GW is likely to do. Plus, it may come off as pandering to the female demographic, and therefore a bit condescending.

They do already have an all-female army in the Sisters, I think they just need to be updated and then promoted more... which I assume will happen, just as it did with the Dark Eldar.

Furthermore, you're really looking for subtle change, like introducing female guardsmen models into the standard box, maybe adding a few more female characters that aren't over-sexualized (I think Lelith is a good example of this, despite her attire. She looks like a killing machine). Some female sculpts for some of the more male-dominated models, like Commissars, Farseers, or Inquisitors would also be good.

It doesn't have to be a full paradigm shift, just a little bit more attention.

[Melissia]

I can totally see you doing that, too:D

Heh, now I'm tempted to say something like that, just to see the look on their faces.

... or maybe not. Hrm.

[MaltonNecromancer]

So women are not being treated with the respect they deserve? Well respect isn't given it's taken! What if the women of 40k decided to band together and start a rebellion? They wouldn't be chaos they would just be rebels fighting for their freedom from men, or maybe they think they should be the dominate ones??? What do you folks think?

While interesting from a personal fluff point of view, it doesn't strike me as helpful - the ideal is integration, not segregation. Women and men together, not apart. As has been pointed out, we already have a segregated female army. As has also been pointed out, that's just as unfair, because the men can't join the SoB!

Marching forwards together in the name of the Emperor, to die gloriously and pointlessly. :)

Or, you know, Chaos. Whatever floats your boat. :D

[Uncle Nutsy]

Well this is an interesting topic.

I got about a third of the way through the initial post and started to question if the writer would actually get to the point and dispense with all the filibustering.

sadly, no.

If the writer stuck to the point instead of involving in unnecessary side-topics such as the passage about Nintendo, it would have been a much clearer letter and would drive the point home.


but at least I got to what i believe to be the core of the question, and that is why is the game sexist and why girls feel discouraged from this game.

I don't see any type of discouragement going on. Not in the hobby store, not in the gaming circle I'm in.

I think the issue is a lot of girls become aware of the time, effort and cost that's needed to be put into this hobby and a lot of them would rather do other activities.

[Psychosplodge]

I think you entirely missed the point of the fluff re the necromunda escher thing,
The idea as I remember it (has been a while) is not that the men ACTUALLY were genetically inferior,
they were just perceived to be by the females of the matriachal escher house for possesing a Y chromosome.

The twilight references you make are completely irrelavant (vampires don't sparkle, faires do....:)), plus they are really badly written books, which are very derivative and should have remained a trilogy to stay remotely readable.

I'd be more worried about a year 7 pupil playing the 18 rated GTA and call of duty games than the perceived sexism of the 40k universe.

Somebody made a good point about the IG - once the flak jacket and helmets on , you arn't really going to tell the sex at 28mm lol.

Regarding the shop experiance you are spot on, my better half just completely refuses to enter these days, maybe you should just stick to that bit?

[Sparfunk]

figure ill jump in with some thoughts.

i read the whole OP, and then the first few pages, then skim read the other 7 or so.

first id like to start on the 'GW stores can be hostile places for girls' and give my own experiences on this subject:

my longtime girlfriend wont go into a GW store with me unless its pretty much just the staff member in there. why? because when we started dating, a good few years ago now, the first few times she went into GW with me and it was crowded EVERYONE would stop what conversations they were having and do one of two things: either concentrate intently on what theyre painting/reading/looking at, or stare at her.
this happened about 4 times before she said that it really made her feel awkward and since then she has refused to go in with me if there are any apparent 'regulars' in there.
now, this isnt games workshops fault. i mean no offense to anyone here as i say this, but this hobby has always attracted the socially inept, i know thats not all it attracts, but a lot of the customers, and especially regulars that you might see at weekends, are teenage boys who arent all that great at dealing with social situations that put them outside of their comfort zone, hell i was one of them once.

anyway, other comments.

ill have a short rant about the female space marines argument as its a pet peeve of mine.

its simple: google female body builders, now imagine them WITHOUT the silicone breasts, now put power armour on them and stand them next to a male space marine... WOAH they look the same!?!??!?!!

from a background point of view, i dont think there should be female space marines. there were no female spartans, no female soldiers in the armies of ancient rome, no women in the SS, hell, no women in forces like big red one.

not to say there werent female combatants through the ages, of course there were, but its fitting that they shouldnt exist in a space marine army.

next point:

i second most peoples comments that female IG would be awesome. one person asked and im not sure if it was answered, weather or not female IG were predominant in the background... Tona Criid is one of the best characters in the gaunts ghosts series and is female, a sergeant (by the end) AND a mum. shes awesome. there are others, but i couldnt think of one more obvious than that one.

a comment on the letter itself... it was ok reading for the first... half? third? but then it kinda degenerated into a rant that wont really be taken seriously by head office.

also a comment on the 'other companies have more sexual equality in their ranges' comment:

im only going to speak from the perspective of warmachine/hordes as i consider that my main game system nowadays and i know the models well. the female models are equally as 'sexist' and/or 'masogynistic' as the GW ones, if not more so. the 2010 Feora model is wearing a platemail corset/bustier, the 2010 skarre model is wearing a mini skirt and a boob tube. kara sloan is the seductively sexy sniper chick. madeline corbeau is a whore. first mate hawk is a pirate chick who inspires the male pirates around her to fight harder in an attempt to get her to notice them. theres a LOT more. yes there area few that arent (dirty meg, the female member of the black 13th etc) but most are equally, if not more, 'offensive' than GW's attempts.

and my last comment is that a while back, i worked for GW in the uk, as a part timer while studying, for about 2 years. regarding the comment about 'are you buying these for your husband/son etc'... i learnt quickly that the more appropriate question was 'are you buying these for yourself?', which i would ask the mums that came in obviously buying presents, because its much better to get a 'no, dont be silly, its for my son' from them and a cool conversation about the hobby from a female hobbyist than it is to just offend the female hobbyist. our store had a couple of female gamers, but that store (the customers) were quite mature (almost all regulars 18+ with a crushingly small group of school kids that only turned up on sundays) (it also wasnt my 'local' store that i grew up with and now visit). i found while working there that most female hobbyists wouldnt play the game (thought the game was too boyish was a comment ive had) but loved the painting, to each their own i guess, i know female gamers that enjoy playing very much.

[DarkLink]

from a background point of view, i dont think there should be female space marines. there were no female spartans, no female soldiers in the armies of ancient rome, no women in the SS, hell, no women in forces like big red one.


That's because women weren't usually allowed to join the military until this last century. Though, interestingly, during some points in the middle ages it wasn't at all unusual for a woman to be in charge of a castle or something, and thus in charge of the military

Now, military service does require a certain level of physical fitness, and a certain mental attitude. Physiologically and psychologically, there is probably a lower proportion of women that want/can meet those standards than men (by psychologically, I mean that men tend to be more aggressive and physically violent, so they have more of a predilection towards military service).

However, that's a very, very different thing from saying that women can't, or shouldn't, perform. So long as they meet the same standards that men are held to, there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be allowed to serve.

Not that this has anything to do with female space Marines, but I digress.



a comment on the letter itself... it was ok reading for the first... half? third? but then it kinda degenerated into a rant that wont really be taken seriously by head office.


I couldn't even get that far into it. Brevity is the soul of wit. If you're going to try and give someone a "reasons why you suck" speech, keep it short or they'll just ignore you.

[BuFFo]

and that is why is the game sexist

The game isn't the least bit sexist, which has been proven in multiple posts in this very thread. I know you aren't asking the question directly, you are just paraphrasing the OP.


and why girls feel discouraged from this game.

If anything, the game is about subject matters which normally do not appeal to females, so by its very nature the game discourages 'your average female', just like I am sure 'your average male' is not into Bratz Toys.

The game does not, however, discourage females who are into this kind of hobby from participating in it. Maybe the fat, smelly arrogant male gamers do, but hey, they discourage everyone, not just the women lol.

[eldargal]

Yes, the problem isn't with GW (though they could do more as I've said above), what is a problem is that amongst the 'geek' girls 40k still has a very low profile. I've managed to get most of my friends into the hobby simply by using their parallel interests in video games, RPGs etc to get them hooked. Then having a small group of girls encouraged some of the spouses/girlfriends/sisters/etc to stay and get into it themselves because they didn't feel like they were intruding into a boys-only area.

[Kahoolin]

Whoah, that letter was long! Hopefully I can hold back from being just as long :D

I think there are a lot of issues here. To me it seems like the world has changed a bit recently and maybe GW hasn't caught up yet, but they will. It's only a matter of time before GW games are girl-gamer friendly, or else they'll eventually fall to something that is. I can see the OP's point, the portrayals of females in the miniature lines and core rules are problematic from a modern standpoint, to say the least. What was acceptable in the 80s is not any more.

On the other hand though, some activities are simply favoured by one gender more than another, and marketed as such. I don't think that's a very telling reason to prevent change in this case though, firstly because obviously, girls want to play GW games. Secondly, kids today are different from when I was a teenager in the 90s. In my admittedly limited experience with modern children (family, children of friends, kids in the street), gender is not much of a factor in teenage subculture today. I used to be a skater, and all my skater mates were guys. Now when I see skaters there are always a few girls. It's the same with other groups of kids and teens I've seen, they seem much less aware of male/female gender roles than when I was young.

Everyone has to admit that girls can be geeks too these days. Most of my female friends, my GF and my sister are gamers/geeks. Clearly women and girls are interested in warhammer, but the outdated fetish 80s crap (quite rightly) puts them off. If it has to go, it will. I don't know if writing a letter will do anything, but I think things will change soon enough. Like the letter said, females are 51% of the market and they are starting to show interest...

[Freefall945]

Three things I'd like to add.

First, I really don't think GW is interested in making the game only appealing to men. They want the most people to play it, as it generates the most money.

Second, no one should have illusions to suggest something is or isn't "Acceptable" for games workshop to do with their IP. As long as they don't break any laws, they can do what they like, and your recourse as a consumer is to not buy their product and tell your friends to not buy it as well.

Finally, I think we should all be extremely wary of any effort to deliberately egalitarianize warhammer 40k. Gently raising the profile of female participants in the 40k universe, like a refreshed Sisters Codex (and a mandatory scrapping of the ridiculous she-gimp squads), perhaps a forgeworld line of guardswomen from a culturally appropriate world; all of these are good. Hard changes to the lore, or even skirting around the law to make dramatic, unprecedented additions - chiefly female space marines - would be a painful blow to the long-enduring image of 40k, and like many players, I would becoming glassy-eyed with disillusionment and probably go play warmachine.

Just.. be careful what you wish for.

[Daemonette666]

I read your entire post, but I don't believe you have any legs to stand on.

Warhammer 40,000 is a game based on war, and is marketed to males. This is no different than a product marketed for women. Why is it always women putting on lipstick in the ads?

Reality is, humanity is divided into two sexes, and as such various aspects of society will eb geared to one sex over the other. Trying to androgenize everything is not the answer.

The answer is to not allow a 7 year old girl partake in a hobby that is marketed for 12+ year old people. I find it odd that you take the opinion of a child just barely realizing Santas Clause and the Easter Bunny don't exist.

The answer is to just cope with the reality that purses are for women, giant Ford Pick Up trucks are for men (the female models have vanity mirrors in them, just fyi), dresses are for women, and 40k is for men.

Now, if you were to pick an aspect of society that does not require a sex, say, space exploration or politics, and fault it for being sexist, then I would agree. But Warhammer 40k is a game designed for males.

Now, where is your letter to Mattel complaining that Barbie doesn't have enough males playing with their dolls? :D :D

- edit -

Space Marines - Male
Chaos Space Marines - Male and Female (yeah, more females here than Marines, go figure)
Deamons - Male and Female
IG - Male (the one or two female models don't count, lol)
Sisters of Battle - Female
Eldar - Male and Female
Dark Eldar - Male and Female
Tau - Male and Female
Tyranids - No sex (aliens)
Orks - No Sex (fungus)

In 40k, females are represented quite strongly. It is the perspective that GW's flagship army, Marines, is all male that makes the game seem 100% male, when in truth it isn't.
My local GW store has 3 or 4 females who regularly go there to play games or collect miniatures to paint. The nearest GW shop to that has even more women who go there to collect miniatures and convert and play with them. I have been wargaming for over 28 years myself, I am a woman, who collects Games Workshop miniatures, has 5 Armies for warhammer 40K, and also collects Battletech miniatures of which I have over 1000 miniatures.

I tend to find that GW staff are not the sexist ones in nthe stores. They have to watch their Ps & Qs. I find it is the other gamers who can without realising it, make sexist or silly remarks that could be deemed sexist. I knew of one wargamer who forgot his dice, and bought an entirely new set of dice instead of using mine just because mine were pink and purple.

I play traitor Guard, Adeptus Arbites (minidex), Chaos Daemons (mostly Slaaneshii), Chaos Space Marines (mostly noise marines), and Sisters of Battle. Sure a lot of the miniatures look or are painted in very feminine colours, but that is how I wanted them to look. I like pinks, purples, aquas, and other pastel colours.

I actually find I intimidate most players because of my confidence, and my tactical savy. I estimate I have won about 60%, lost 20% and drwan 20% of the games I have played. Most of my tactical abilities and my confidence could be contributed to the 14 years I spent in the Army, or the fact that I am Lesbian, and the psychologist who tested me for mental acuity (psych testing, and I.Q> testing) told me I had a 50%male/50% female brain pattern and behavior, and a well above average IQ level.

What gets me upset is when guys in general call me love or darl or hun. General Australian terms of endearment that are used to both belittle and compliment a woman. I know this will get a few comments from guys calling me love or darl in their replies. What I do is give as good as I get. When a guy makes a sexist or belittling remark, I get back at him with a remark that puts his sexuality in doubt, or call him something like "son", or "little boy" and ask him to pass the glue or something. They learn to watch what they say.

The only real gripe I have about some GW staff is that they have their favorite customers. I know one guy who is not an amazing painter, and quite average at converting miniatures, who regularly wins in store painting competitions over other people who IMHO have done a far better conversion and paint job than him. His friendship with the GW staff member in charge get of the competition help him win the event. I know 5 or 6 other people who used to frequently go to the local GW store, and now go to another one 15km away because of it.

As to your comment on seductively pose-able male slaves for the Dark Eldar. Why shouldn't they design a few of them to compliment the female slaves. Dark Eldar are both male and female, so they would treat male slave just as badly. Dark Eldar have no shyness about homosexuaklity, and are utterly depraved, so it should be reasonable to expect half naked male slaves as well. I would like to mention that dark Eldar consider humans and other species as animals. Just like dogs, so the gender of a slave doesn't matter to them. Slaves are used to work machinery, and general labour, to serve them food, to be tortured and experimented on, or put into the fighting arenas for the Dark Eldars entertainment.

If you want to use female miniatures to represent Imperial Guard troopers there are a number of companies out there that make female soldier miniatures. One Australian Company only makes female miniatures, though most of these are posed or dressed seductively.l They do make a great range of Blood Bowl miniatures.

You also have to remember that 90-95% or more of GW customers are male and most are very homophobic, so seductively poised half naked males would not be a product that would sell well. The female ones unfortunately would be a great seller, and work perfectly within the Dark Eldar slaves theme.

I just ignore small things like the DE slaves or the lack of female Imperial Guard troopers, etc, and just let the guys know to watch what they say around me, or get they end up being embarrassed by me putting their manhood down through innuendo or just beating them on the gaming table.

Well that's my 5 cents worth. (because 2 cent pieces are no longer used in Australian currency).

[aemzed]

You also have to remember that 90-95% or more of GW customers are male and most are very homophobic, so seductively poised half naked males would not be a product that would sell well.


I am a woman and I love getting to blow off some steam in these discussions.

*Cracks knuckles*

Now.... Foistly, 'seductively poised half naked males'? ...I would not find that sexy, I am not a lesbian nor am I attracted to chest waxing jocks. The way the models are done now ticks all the boxes for me and I'm guessing, a lot of heterosexual women.

OP:

Are we all forgetting that ALL THE MALE MODELS ARE OVERTLY SEXUALISED!? Not every man in real life is as buff/toned/brave/handsome as pretty much every male model is in the GW range. Is that not sexist/unfair for the men using the models who are not so well endowed?

Issue aside, I love getting to play with all these little fantastical men. Why would I want to look at a heap of sexy ladies when I am sexually attracted to men? Win win in my books.

As a lady, I do not appreciate you speaking on behalf of all women.
War has mostly been fought by men. This is not due to social inequality, but because of biological differences. Men (on the most part) tend to be psychically stronger. Women do have psychical constraints, such as pregnancy, menstruation (pms making some women tired, ill, in pain).

A game being based on war needs to have some realism, and choosing to genetically improve a female when you could perform the procedure on the male with less social implications, seems ridiculous. Sure these modifications could make women more physically 'equal', however we are talking about a faction of warriors who uphold a tradition. Personally, I am willing to put aside my proud sexuality for the sake of the tradition of brotherhood. There are plenty of sects/cults/groups/gatherings, both in reality and fantasy, which are specific to women and women only.

Why is this even a bad thing? You want equality? Be proud of the fact your species is even in the battle. Be proud of the duties of men just as you would the duties of women, or do you consider your role in society to be a lesser one? Maybe you are too focused on what you wish you had, so you ignore what you do have? It is shame like yours that causes these stark and hurtful feuds.

ALSO, Severina and Sevora Devout are the damndest sexiest models yet and I adore them. Def my fave female model I've seen by GW.

Sure, sometimes I am annoyed by the boobies they model on the female characters, but it is only a annoyance caused by the lack of realism. No lady could swing around a sword with great, heaving DD tits. Sadly, that is a mistake not caused by sexism, but lack of understanding regarding anatomy.

I play Space Wolves because I find great hairy Vikings totally sexy. Am I sexist too?

Your entire letter reeks of sexual frustration.

[eldargal]

Well, I manage.:p I won't deny they get in the way a bit sometimes but you can compensate for it. I'm not sure I would describe them as 'heaving' though. Nice imagery however.


No lady could swing around a sword with great, heaving DD tits.

[aemzed]

Well, I manage.:p I won't deny they get in the way a bit sometimes but you can compensate for it. I'm not sure I would describe them as 'heaving' though. Nice imagery however.

DEEP SIGH.

Geee.. Way to get all the lads to know you have breasts.
Thank you ladies, once again, for making my gender look bat**** dumb.

[Arch_Bishop]

I have many issues with what has been stated here, but I feel I would just be going over old ground refuting them.....

Instead, I would like to accuse GW of also being racist.

The Imperium is almost 100% white Caucasian, with obvious overtones of Christian doctrine. The only other cultural representations are either negative (i.e. enemies of the Imperium), or hardly represented at all (what ever happen to those Arabic guardsmen?).

No space marine chapter has any racial diversity. Sure, Salamanders are usually painted with black skin, but they are obviously Caucasian models painted that way; they lack the facial structure of say, an African. This is clearly racial prejudice. Where are all the other human racial types within the Imperium? Have they all been wiped out? Sounds like the Imperium is just another name for the Reich (they do use similar symbolism....).

There are obvious cultural archetypes within the 40K universe, but in terms of background, they are all considered against the Imperium, and therefore evil. For example, the Tau are clearly 'Asian' (I'd say Japanese or Korean), and whilst they aren't the worst of the enemies of the empire of man, they are enemies none the less. Are GW suggesting that all cultures that aren't white and Western are evil?

While on this note of social prejudice, where are all the handicapped and physically impaired people? It's the year 40,000 and you're telling me that they don't have some sort of machines to enable handicapped people to fight too? Hell, they have mastered interstellar travel, I'm sure Leman Russ' could have wheelchair access.

I would like to see all ethnic, gender and social groups represented equally within all armies and background, within all GW game systems. I want equal opportunity space marines. I want guardsmen of all races, men and women, dying for the Imperium. Actually, maybe all the 'races' (now called 'friends'), could have the goal of social equality, and the age of strife could end with all the friends coming together to make one, beautiful, peaceful, grey universe; holding hands under a rainbow.

So, not only are GW sexist, they are racist and prejudice to all social groups that aren't the 'considered' majority. I would even go so far as to say that there is some sort of racist financial backing within the GW framework, aimed at creating a generation of racist nerds, with the intended goal of bringing back the Reich. I guess all those missing **** war criminals escaped to England and became GW executives.....

[gcsmith]

Arch Bishop I hope your being sarcastic, otherwise shame on you.
Where does it say they have to represent ALL RACES IN THE WORLD. In a table top wargame.
This game is made by white caucasion, so its only likely that the models will be sculpted to look like people the sculpters are common with.
Secondly, even if there were disabled people, they most likely be tank drivers, and since you cant see the driver in any tanks, they won't have models.

In the end, anyone who makes an argument about racism and sexism, is kinda nuts. This is a hobby.
Meant to be fun. It is sculpted by talented scuplters making nice sculpts.
The last thing anyone does when making this is sexism/racism.
And if they don't do anything to offend, then in the end the fault lies with your over reaching opinions and expectations.

People should just play the game they love. And not add politcal correctness to it, Political correctness has already ruined the world with banning things like ba ba black sheep. Or recording toddlers (2-4 year olds) as racist due to noticing differences with people.

Just let it die and play the game.

[Arch_Bishop]

Secondly, even if there were disabled people, they most likely be tank drivers, and since you cant see the driver in any tanks, they won't have models.

I understand this, but I would like to see a fold down wheelchair ramp attached to the side of an equal number of tanks. It must be an equal number, as everyone must be represented equally, an equal amount of the time.

I would also like GW to release buildings that have disabled access. Clearly people with disabilities would use these buildings, provided they were intact.

[gcsmith]

firstly how do you define equal. Equal to what. If every other tank had disabled access, thats easily not equal as there are far more able bodied than disabled.

Also simple solution to those who want paticular models. use other ranges, or CONVERT, its a hobby.

[Arch_Bishop]

Dude, I'm taking the piss.

Rather than going over this whole 'sexist' argument, I thought I would just poke fun at another aspect of GW, highlighting the ridiculous nature of such arguments.

Equality is a human constructed idea that has absolutely no basis in reality. Perfection, truth, equality; none of these 'exist'.

Differences are a good thing. They should be celebrated and enjoyed, rather than trying to make everyone the same; one big grey universe.

This does not mean we cannot strive for such ideals, but we must always be aware that they are ideals; nothing more.

[gcsmith]

well i assumed your being sarcastic, however a discussion is nice to have none the less. Plus the convesion thing is also for the orginal poster.

[Arch_Bishop]

well i assumed your being sarcastic, however a discussion is nice to have none the less. Plus the convesion thing is also for the orginal poster.

Absolutely.

I just hope we both got a laugh out of that. I could have kept going on, but you seem to be 'on the level', so it would have been counterproductive.

[Lane]

Instead, I would like to accuse GW of also being racist.

The Imperium is almost 100% white Caucasian, with obvious overtones of Christian doctrine. The only other cultural representations are either negative (i.e. enemies of the Imperium), or hardly represented at all (what ever happen to those Arabic guardsmen?).


The races we know were probably wiped out by the big melting pot during the Dark Age of Technology. Some new races may have developed locally since then but in general the Imperium is of generic racial stock.




Where are all the other human racial types within the Imperium? Have they all been wiped out? Sounds like the Imperium is just another name for the Reich (they do use similar symbolism....).

While on this note of social prejudice, where are all the handicapped and physically impaired people?

I would like to see all ethnic, gender and social groups represented equally within all armies and background, within all GW game systems. I want equal opportunity space marines. I want guardsmen of all races, men and women, dying for the Imperium. A.

The other races were volunteered to fight thousands of years ago. Their sacrifice will be forgotten just like everyone else.

There are other uses for the handicapped, Soilent green comes to mind.

[gcsmith]

If only I wasnt stuck in school. Still this discussion, wierdly brightened my day before afternoon exam. Anyway hope you get a resolution OP, though I dnt think the one you want is the one you want, since it would kinda ruin the hobby.
Fluff retcon for one person is random.

[eldargal]

I have often heard certain feminist academics state that a womans worst enemy is other women, and reading your post I am inclined to agree with them. I was responding to an innaccurate claim on your part, that large breasts interfere with ones ability to wield a sword. I responded in a jovial manner to avoid any semblence of rudeness. My sex is well known on the forum I am sure it comes as no surprise to the majority hear that I have breasts.



DEEP SIGH.

Geee.. Way to get all the lads to know you have breasts.
Thank you ladies, once again, for making my gender look bat**** dumb.

[Psychosplodge]

. My sex is well known on the forum I am sure it comes as no surprise to the majority hear that I have breasts.

Yep, everybody knows there are no girls on the internet...;)

[Renegade]

This argument is dumb and I suggest that the OP spends more time away from the amateur dramatics NUT, and more participating irl.

GW store do tend to be a male dominated zones, with all the rowdiness of a potential whaaaag! with helps keep people infused to the hobby and GW to make sales.
I have heard these same words used against football, rugby and other male dominated hobbies and sports, to a point where at school sport days are no longer competitive events, because losing affects females in a bigger way than males and can affect there further development, though the lack of competitiveness in schools has been detrimental to male students. Great one NUT! Fail half your dtudents to get better grades from the other.
You want to play a game based around twilight or buffy, go ahead! 40k and WFB are great "Grim Dark" settings, and are a great getaway from the PC centric false environment that society is pushed towards.
And if you really have a problem with events titled 'Dads 'n'Lads' then not only are you speaking out that against psychologists and sociologist that these type of things are good for society in general, but there need to be more, but you are also a victim of you own timidity, as there is nothing stopping "mums and daughters' turning up and joining in.

Not having visible female IG is not an argument in it self. With the same training, hair cut and uniform , it would be almost impossible to tell males and females apart.

[aemzed]

I have often heard certain feminist academics state that a womans worst enemy is other women, and reading your post I am inclined to agree with them. I was responding to an innaccurate claim on your part, that large breasts interfere with ones ability to wield a sword. I responded in a jovial manner to avoid any semblence of rudeness. My sex is well known on the forum I am sure it comes as no surprise to the majority hear that I have breasts.


I don't know what you get up to on the weekend, but I'm about 100% certain you have never been in an actual battle. Recreation or not, the circumstances are entirely too different.

DD, DDD, DDDD.. I don't really care. My point was, if you have GIANT KNOCKERS under that armour of yours, wielding a sword is going to be more awkward than if you have small breast or none at all, and the way the GW sculptors portray breasts is a somewhat excessive exaggeration of the anatomical norm.
This doesn't even bother me to the point I want to make an issue of it, I just thought it was fair to the OP and mention how I feel about the women models, and how I believe they could look more normal.

I'm sorry to of sounded harsh, but your comment rubbed me up the wrong way.
First of all, the reason I got involved in this thread was because I'm sick of women involved in the GW hobby making us look stupid. I feel like a loner here, amongst my gender, as I am quite comfortable with my role and I appreciate our gender differences. I also understand it is a heavily male orientated game and I understand the territory that comes with that. Also, as I mentioned, it is a game reflecting war, which in itself has always been male orientated.
I don't feel GW is at all sexist and there is definitely room for women to be involved.

Loo, if we are going to 'stand up' for ourselves and our 'equality', drawing attention to your boobs, be it some strangely elusive attempt at a factual comment or not, seems only to further segregate us.
We should not hide in androgyny, however there is no need to flash everyone else in the room. Perhaps I am being too serious. I'm sorry.

Obviously, you are very proud of your sexuality in this forum. Your name references your gender and unlike many of the other avatars, your is a photo of yourself (and your breasts ;)). While I have no immediate issue with your choices, I can see we are from two different mindsets. (....Yes, I know my avatar also suggests I am female.)

[aemzed]

Yep, everybody knows there are no girls on the internet...;)

TITS or GTFO.

[Melissia]

D, DD, and DDD sized breasts are very rare in athletic women. Certianly basically unheard of in soldiers.

Breasts are made up of mostly fat. There's no reason a woman who has been raised to be a soldier and martial artist all her life would have triple D breasts.


As for overt sexualization?

My Guardmen aren't sexualized. Neither are my Orks (They don't have a sex to begin with).

[aemzed]

D, DD, and DDD sized breasts are very rare in athletic women. Certianly basically unheard of in soldiers.

Breasts are made up of mostly fat. There's no reason a woman who has been raised to be a soldier and martial artist all her life would have triple D breasts.


As for overt sexualization?

My Guardmen aren't sexualized. Neither are my Orks (They don't have a sex to begin with).

Yeah, huge breasts are rare in athletic women for a reason! I didn't even consider that but it's a very valid point. Still, the women models do need to look stylized (maybe just a little more realistic?).. As I mentioned several times, it's just my anatomical anal retentiveness shining through.

I don't know about you but I find the Kommisar with his uniform (and mostly every soldier in a uniform) and gas mask to be pretty sexy. The Orks, although are 'sexless', still have a masculine quality to them. I appreciate their snarls and rippling muscle. ;)

[eldargal]

I've not been in an actual battle, no, but I've been a historical reenactor since I was little, not SCA stuff but proper accurate 'living history' and I have participated in plenty of massed combats as well as extensive training with my brothers and others. Larger breasts may get in the way, but there are plenty of other things that could make you less than efficient as a soldier too, such as being of above average height or width.
I'm not trying to claim the way GW depicts females is always sensible, I'm just responding to your erroneous suggestion that a woman with DDs could not use a sword well. They can.
You don't seem comfortable, quite the opposite, given that you can not seem to engage in a mature discussion about breasts without resorting to petty insults or a patronising attitude. I am perfectly comfortable with my sexuality, I don't need to hide it behind an assumed veil of indifference or masculinity. I am proud of femininity and I am not going to pretend otherwise. I have a picture of myself in my avatar, yes, not because it shows my breasts (which are hardly prominent in the picture) but because it is me in the picture. To the best of my knowledge and belief I have never used my gender as a talking point (beyond, perhaps, some friendly banter in the Oubliette) as you seem to suggest.

You may say otherwise but your attitude is simply one of denying your femininity. I do not do so, and I get plenty of flak from other women about it, but I'm not going to change myself to appease the insecurities of others. How men may or may not view me and my anatomy is entirely irrelevent, and I hardly behave like in a slatternly fashion. Furthemore, I challenge anyone to argue that I have not made a significant intellectual contribution to this forum, that I am 'eye-candy'.

[Melissia]

Just because you would like to **** them doesn't mean they're sexualized.

One could argue, for example, that Space Marines are sexualized, what with their large codpieces and huge shoulderpieces, and hell even the muscle armor that the BA douches wear. But Guard uniforms are pretty much functional military uniforms, slightly stylized at most. Orks are rippling with muscle, but that's because they're insane alien barbarians, not because of any inherent gender in them.

[Psychosplodge]

TITS or GTFO.

And I thought I'd not quite lowered the tone that far....


.....And you really don't want to see my moobs:p

[Aldramelech]

DEEP SIGH.

Geee.. Way to get all the lads to know you have breasts.
Thank you ladies, once again, for making my gender look bat**** dumb.

Yeeeeessssss, We'd kind of noticed that already..........

I would like to say that Eldergal's attitude to being a woman in the hobby has won nothing but respect from the majority male membership here, and that her opinion is respected not because she is a woman but because she she is intelligent and articulate as well as extremely knowledgeable on the subjects covered here.

You on the other hand have zero pull with your eight posts so far and have earned no respect as yet.

And it aint looking too promising for your contribution so far.

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, to be fair here, Eldargal is pretty well known as a major troll by a certain Commissar. So there may be some truth to her being a terrible person.

[DarkLink]

First, I really don't think GW is interested in making the game only appealing to men. They want the most people to play it, as it generates the most money.


This is a game about superhuman soldiers in space killing each other with chainsaw swords and rocket launchers. Who do you think this game is targeted at?

GW's not going to complain if women get into the hobby, too, but their target market is pretty obvious.

[Aldramelech]

Well, to be fair here, Eldargal is pretty well known as a major troll by a certain Commissar. So there may be some truth to her being a terrible person.

:rolleyes::p;)

[MaltonNecromancer]

Political correctness has already ruined the world with banning things like ba ba black sheep.

That story is ten years old and the ban was scrapped within weeks of coming in. Weeks! everyone realised what a stupid idea that was. Behold:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm

I feel I should point out that your claims of "world ruination" might be a little hyperbolic.

Generally speaking, "political correctness" is not a useful, or helpful term. It's actually quite outdated as an idea. I would also suggest that there are far more urban legends about "political correctness gone mad" than there are actual cases of it.

I don't see why wanting to treat people fairly, with equal rights for all is so crazy. In a fictional setting, where mortal demigods bestride a galaxy torn by war, is it still such a shocking idea to imagine that some of the genetically engineed supersoldiers might have an XX chromosomal structure? Seriously, I don't get the rage.

I also find the arguments of "men are the ones who fight" slightly strange. Did the "*** Kicked By Girl" segment of the first "JKackass" film teach us nothing? I suppose the argument about strength carried some weight, back in the days of dinosaurs, when we had swords and fought with shields, maybe. But surely anyone can pull a trigger? Or drive a tank? Or deploy an orbital bombarment of viral bombs to condemn a daemon world to extinction (surely all that is needed is the right button and a cavalier lack of regard for human life). Or take massive quantities of steroids to boost their muscle bulk to astonishing leve;s before engaging in genetic manipulation to ensure their great personal beauty... oh wait, that was the Blood Angels, most aesthetic of all the chapters...


Also simple solution to those who want paticular models. use other ranges, or CONVERT, its a hobby.

I'd love to. Plastic female conversion pieces are the end result I hope for. A simple one-off plastic sprue of appropriate pieces would pretty much deal with the entire issue for me.

[UltramarineFan]

I like the way there's now a seperate argument going on between the women.. xD

[Freefall945]

I don't see why wanting to treat people fairly, with equal rights for all is so crazy. In a fictional setting, where mortal demigods bestride a galaxy torn by war, is it still such a shocking idea to imagine that some of the genetically engineed supersoldiers might have an XX chromosomal structure? Seriously, I don't get the rage.

I think I can explain the rage.

No one's saying Games Workshop couldn't spin it in such a way it fit with the universe. Some of the Female Space Marine Advocates (FSMA?) on this forum have made very competent arguments as to how it could be justified.

The problem comes from two sources. First, conflicting with existing thematic structures, and secondly the suckerpunch to immersion.

On the thematic structures, Space Marines particularly are themed very heavilly off european warrior monks, like the Knights Hospitaller or Templar. They are men who forsake wealth, love, even family for the divine duty of serving God/The Emperor in combat/Forevercombat. In exchange for this departure from mainstream society, they are girded in the iron bonds of brotherhood, going into battle knowing every man beside him is willing to die for him... and so on and so on.

Again, I'm sure someone is already Wiki'ing up a storm looking for an esoteric order of all female knights who were known to fight. It wouldn't matter if their was one. It would impede on the space marine's brightest core theme - Warrior Brothers.

Concerning the suckerpunch to immersion, the addition of female space marines would be seen as a bold and obvious attempt to rope in rogue demo-graphs by sacrificing the themes on the alter of topical issues/political correctness. Perhaps all the designers in Nottingham would legitimately feel it was cool - again, that would be irrelevant. It would introduce huge amounts of discussion about the presence of female space marines, any and all of which drag one kicking and screaming out of the 41st millennium and back into this one.

That isn't to say when I am playing my Eldar I literally forget I'm a human male in the year 2010, but I sure appreciate not having to deal with class-action lawsuits by my howling banshees and female guardians concerning wage disparity.

[eldargal]

Re FSMs, I've made the point that there is nothing that really prevents them on fluff basis, the supposed genetic incompatibility being based on faulty science and thus, perhaps, a result of ignorance. But, I still don't want to see official FSMs. Ever. I mean I've converted my own to tease the anti-FSM crowd in my games group, but I don't ever want to see the 'Space Marines are male' thing overturned in canon fluff, for the reasons Freefall mentions above.

This is where I see a strong difference between doing more to make the game accessible to women, and changing the game to try and make it appeal to women. The former, absolutely fine, and I've pointed out some points that would help with that. The latter, no. The game itself should not be changed, that defeats the purpose of trying to get more women interested in what I consider to be the finest sci-fi setting there is (closely followed by Firefly, Star Wars and Star Trek:rolleyes:).

[MaltonNecromancer]

See Freefall945, that's the best, and most intelligent dissection of the reasons why anyone has ever given me. It makes sense, and addresses the thematic concerns of the larger 40K narrative.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a good enough reason for me, and I don't think it's a good enough reason to make Marines all male, but it is a reason I can appreciate, respect and understand.

To play Devil's Advocate, my counterpoint would draw on EldarGal's mention of Star Wars: Jedi are male and female, and have the whole warrior monk thing too. They like swords better than guns too. As long as our monks are celibate and focusing all that sexual frustration into a heady cocktail of rage, covert homosexuality and religious devotion, I see no reason they couldn't be together in a chapter. At worst, it would certainly make for some epically tragic Arthurian romances...

And no, not bloody Twilight before anyone makes that damned comparison. Cullen gets five rounds rapid and that's that.

Sorry. "Love Can Bloom" made me giggle.

...

And EldarGal: no love for BSG? Or Doctor Who? (I would pay cash money to watch Picard stare down a Dalek...)

[eldargal]

I forgot about Doctor Who, its up there as well. I didn't care for BSG

[Renegade]

Originally Posted by MaltonNecromancer View Post
I don't see why wanting to treat people fairly, with equal rights for all is so crazy. In a fictional setting, where mortal demigods bestride a galaxy torn by war, is it still such a shocking idea to imagine that some of the genetically engineed supersoldiers might have an XX chromosomal structure? Seriously, I don't get the rage.

Because there has never been FSMs, and way change it for the sake of it? If you dont like the fluff make up your own! Thats the long and short of it. You dont like the story, write your own, whos stopping you?

And where does equal right fit anywhere near 40K, except the right for anything to die, probably in a really horrible way.

If your pupil wants tyo play the game, then she should play the game, making out that there is something in the fluff that stops you is totally irrational.

[Freefall945]

See Freefall945, that's the best, and most intelligent dissection of the reasons why anyone has ever given me. It makes sense, and addresses the thematic concerns of the larger 40K narrative...

...To play Devil's Advocate, my counterpoint would draw on EldarGal's mention of Star Wars: Jedi are male and female, and have the whole warrior monk thing too. They like swords better than guns too.

Glad I could help. Where truth is a sword, an anvil, a holy tome; clarity is a whetstone, a pot of flux, a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

To counterpoint your counterpoint, I would say some things.

Firstly, and less seriously, you'll note that Eldargal considers Starwars inferior to Warhammer 40k, and I agree. It's fundamentally different, however, as Star Wars has a handful of powerful themes (The Lone Hero, the Order of Warrior-Sages, Good Triumphs over Evil...). The fusion of these themes creates something new - the Star Wars theme. It is the compliment of ideas that make it cool.

Warhammer 40k has hundreds of themes, all individually simple, and vigorous, made to smash against each other. The residue of this collision, collected on an adhesive laden canvas strewn beneath this violent intercourse of ideas, is the vast and stunning image of 40k. It is the contrast of ideas that make it cool.

I submit to you that 40k is richer that other settings primarily because of its diverse and contrasting origins. Marines are Knights Templar, smothered with the blood-sodden dirt of that wretched galaxy and presented for all to love, or hate. Every element they collide with represents something else, and often not something with a distinct presence on the moral scale. It's from this that we get the Black-On-Black morality 40k nuts are so fond of.

I would suggest to you that our lovely setting is richer for such exclusions. Any forbidden romances a female space marine might have with her male comrade sabotage the imagery in such a way as to be unforgivable. Far more precious that such a coveting, I find, is the kind of trepidation Marines must feel when they interact with women, knowing and understanding so little of them. Dan Abnett does a fine job of this in Horus Rising.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Freefall945: To counterpoint your idea - could there not be some male, some female, and some mixed chapters, thus giving us the best of all worlds?

Purely for arguement's sake, what if we say that the Black Templars are all male, which gives you your Knight Templars, exactly as described. By contrast, the Ultramarines, let's say, are more inclusive, and thus recruit from all humanity, not just 49% of the population, giving me the mix I want. When our chapters meet, they have even more reason to distrust and argue with each other. You can't deny that it would make for an interesting sit down when High Marshall Helbrecht has to parley with Sister-Captain Boudicca... :D

For me, one of 40K's strengths is it's inclusiveness - the idea that everything goes, including the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Marine chapters are so individual and varied, this idea seems to give everyone what they want. :)

Renegade, you say


there has never been FSMs... why change it for the sake of it?

It's a little facietious, but I ask you, quite sincerely: why stay the same for the sake of it? Just because there have never been FSM's is no reason not to do them now. Purely playing Devil's Advocate: if the fluff changes, and FSM's become an option, to turn your argument on it's head - what's stopping you having an all-male chapter (like the example above)?

Nothing stops me having female marines... except a lack of plastic heads. Which I won't get unless the fluff changes! You've already got all the parts you need for your marines, and an upgrade sprue of female heads is far easier to do (and implement fluff-wise) than something like say, a full reboot of all the fluff and every single model in an existing line. And the new Dark Eldar proves that GW are capable of massive retcons and retools.

Fluff is, by it's nature, fluffy - it's malleable, and therefore allows scope for everything if they let it.

[eldargal]

Oh, going back a bit regarding female body armour, there is a growing body of evidence which says in fact female body armour should be shaped to match female contours. I tried a quick google but could only find this:
http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Women-in-Law-Enforcement/Articles/2007/10/The-Shape-of-Womens-Body-Armor.aspx

Darting is the most common way to shape ballistic material around the bust. A dart is an overlapping of fabric at an angle. Creating darts at certain positions near the bust cinches the material at the correct points to contour to a woman's body. If the darts don't hit at the right point, the armor will follow the wrong contours and won't fit the officer. Not only can the wrong fit be unsightly, not having appropriate ballistic coverage is dangerous.
"If you put a male vest on a woman with an ample chest, the sides of her breasts are pushed out to the side and she has no side coverage on her chest," explains PT Armor's Glaze.

So, the idea that women on the battlefield would be wearing male shaped body armour and thus be indistinguishable from the male looks rather dubious.;)


MaltonNecromancer, I agree there are plenty of arguments in favour of FSMs, but the fact remains it would be a seismic change in the 40k fluff that would upset a great many people for no real need. We can have our FSMs in our own groups, and that is enough in my opinion.

[aemzed]

Just because you would like to **** them doesn't mean they're sexualized.

One could argue, for example, that Space Marines are sexualized, what with their large codpieces and huge shoulderpieces, and hell even the muscle armor that the BA douches wear. But Guard uniforms are pretty much functional military uniforms, slightly stylized at most. Orks are rippling with muscle, but that's because they're insane alien barbarians, not because of any inherent gender in them.

Hey, hey... I don't want to **** them... =) My point is that their masculine aspects are exaggerated. In our society, whether we like it or not, muscle and hardcore, physical strength are masculine attributes.

[Renegade]

It's a little facietious, but I ask you, quite sincerely: why stay the same for the sake of it? |Because then you change the story. They are no longer sons of the Emperor or Primarch 'X', but daughters as well. If the background upsets your sensiblities, dont read it, make your own.
Nothing stops me having female marines... except a lack of plastic heads. Excuses, just keep the helmets on or they are just as ugly as male SM, either way, its still just and excuse, not even the scales are right as is.

[aemzed]

I've not been in an actual battle, no, but I've been a historical reenactor since I was little, not SCA stuff but proper accurate 'living history' and I have participated in plenty of massed combats as well as extensive training with my brothers and others. Larger breasts may get in the way, but there are plenty of other things that could make you less than efficient as a soldier too, such as being of above average height or width.
I'm not trying to claim the way GW depicts females is always sensible, I'm just responding to your erroneous suggestion that a woman with DDs could not use a sword well. They can.
You don't seem comfortable, quite the opposite, given that you can not seem to engage in a mature discussion about breasts without resorting to petty insults or a patronising attitude. I am perfectly comfortable with my sexuality, I don't need to hide it behind an assumed veil of indifference or masculinity. I am proud of femininity and I am not going to pretend otherwise. I have a picture of myself in my avatar, yes, not because it shows my breasts (which are hardly prominent in the picture) but because it is me in the picture. To the best of my knowledge and belief I have never used my gender as a talking point (beyond, perhaps, some friendly banter in the Oubliette) as you seem to suggest.

You may say otherwise but your attitude is simply one of denying your femininity. I do not do so, and I get plenty of flak from other women about it, but I'm not going to change myself to appease the insecurities of others. How men may or may not view me and my anatomy is entirely irrelevent, and I hardly behave like in a slatternly fashion. Furthemore, I challenge anyone to argue that I have not made a significant intellectual contribution to this forum, that I am 'eye-candy'.

Of course I know that.. I did my stalker homework on your profile before accusing you of anything. ;)

So anyways, I quote:

"Larger breasts may get in the way, but there are plenty of other things that could make you less than efficient as a soldier too, such as being of above average height or width."

Thank you. End of discussion.

I don't care how much you have contributed to this forum. I try and stay away from bols in general, however last night my boyfriend exclaimed there was a hilarious letter on the forever amusing topic of sexism and GW, so I had to contribute. It is a topic I enjoy, because I often feel my opinion, as woman, is often misrepresented. Why not throw another opinion in the works?

I never said I am denying my femininity, I said that I don't feel the need to amplify it.

I'm sorry I attacked you, but I explained why and I apologised.
I just calls em like I sees em.

We are not discussing tactics here, we are discussing a social political issue, so 8 posts or 8000 posts is beside the point.

[eldargal]

They get in the way slightly, but in no way compromise ones ability to wield a sword while doing so. Your basic point is still erroneous.

[aemzed]

They get in the way slightly, but in no way compromise ones ability to wield a sword while doing so. Your basic point is still erroneous.

Slightly is still something more than nothing, which is what you originally stated. We are not discussing statistical differences, we are discussing if they hinder the woman's abilities at all. Which they do. My original point was that the larger the breasts, the more difficulty said plastic figurine would have when fighting other plastic figurines.

[eldargal]

But you assume that getting in the way is the same as hindering fighting ability, which it is not. If I'm wearing regular clothing, they just get bumped or compressed slightly. If I'm wearing a plate harness, I get lots of little scratches along the side of the breastplate. They are in the way, but they do not hinder. It is something I have to compensate for, yes, but it doesn't impede my ability to the use the sword effectively. It doesn't make it more difficult, anymore than being taller or shorter than your opponent, both of which must also be compensated for.

[aemzed]

But you assume that getting in the way is the same as hindering fighting ability, which it is not. If I'm wearing regular clothing, they just get bumped or compressed slightly. If I'm wearing a plate harness, I get lots of little scratches along the side of the breastplate. They are in the way, but they do not hinder. It is something I have to compensate for, yes, but it doesn't impede my ability to the use the sword effectively. It doesn't make it more difficult, anymore than being taller or shorter than your opponent, both of which must also be compensated for.

Ahhh! Your breasts don't even look that big! I'm talking about HUGE breasts! Breasts that cause back problems
(a common complaint), which would hinder her fighting abilities..

I'm not taking your word for it, when you a) don't have huge boobs and b) have never fought in a real battle. Partaking in historical reenactments is hardly the same thing. I don't know why you even had to contribute your real life experiences to this argument when it was irrelevant. I just got caught up arguing something totally convoluted.

Have you seen the models I'm talking about? They are not even a realistic size. I already stated that I may of been incorrect by stating DD, and I merely meant GIANT BOOBS.

[scadugenga]

But you assume that getting in the way is the same as hindering fighting ability, which it is not. If I'm wearing regular clothing, they just get bumped or compressed slightly. If I'm wearing a plate harness, I get lots of little scratches along the side of the breastplate. They are in the way, but they do not hinder. It is something I have to compensate for, yes, but it doesn't impede my ability to the use the sword effectively. It doesn't make it more difficult, anymore than being taller or shorter than your opponent, both of which must also be compensated for.

And for the record, wearing plate harness is infinitelybetter than suiting up in mail. Ye gods, with plate the weight is rather evenly distributed.

Wearing 50lbs of mail that puts (even with a decently cinched belt @ the hips) waaaay too much pressure on the shoulders.

You generally get much more range of motion with with plate too, oddly enough.

And with a decent arming jacket underneath, you shouldn't even get much in the way of scratching. :)

[Duke]

Just an FYI guys, because this has been moved to the Oubliette I am a less tight on the modding... However, that doesn't mean you can go off about whatever you want. Please keep your heads on straight especially because the topic is naturally more 'walking the line,'

Duke

[Aldramelech]

Just an FYI guys, because this has been moved to the Oubliette I am a less tight on the modding... However, that doesn't mean you can go off about whatever you want. Please keep your heads on straight especially because the topic is naturally more 'walking the line,'

Duke

Oh your no fun at all.........:p

[MaltonNecromancer]

http://www.straferight.com/photopost/data/500/medium/double-facepalm.jpg

[Drew da Destroya]

Man, he just double facepalmed his own thread... That can't be a good sign.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Someone posted a grotesquely offensive comment; a double facepalm was the only response :p

Looks like it's been altered.

Now it is evidently I who look quite the fool... Well, no more than usual :o

[Drew da Destroya]

Ahh, well that makes some more sense. I apparently missed the preceding comment, but the picture is funny nonetheless.

Did you finish draft 2 of your letter?

[anal_parsons_project]

wow censered out of the most pointliss discussion ever

[fuzzbuket]

we had a 'nice' reasonable discussion and it keeps going downhill :( duke lock this quick!

[MaltonNecromancer]

Did you finish draft 2 of your letter?

Not yet; just not had the time. Mock exams season is always a time thief! However, I will be posting it when it's finished. Despite the occasional unpleasant comment, the discussion here has been both productive and helpful, so it only seems right.

[Aldramelech]

Someone posted a grotesquely offensive comment; a double facepalm was the only response :p

Looks like it's been altered.

Now it is evidently I who look quite the fool... Well, no more than usual :o

If you considered that to be grotesquely offensive, then you need to get out more matey:rolleyes:

This is The Oubliette, far worse things go on here then that, I suggest you read the rules. Duke made his decision and having the greatest respect for him Ive made no issue of it, he had his reasons that he explained to me via PM which I have excepted.

But you can climb down off your left wing politically correct nanny state hobby horse sunshine, I ain't interested.

Oubliette Rules
1) Humor and entertainment are great. Have a funny tale or link, this is the place.
2) Other hobbies are great.
2) Don't be easily offended. (You have been warned!)
3) No porn!
4) No posting links to other's IP!
5) No politics (including niche/pet causes)!

Finally, the Oubliette is an eternally shifting Sargasso Sea, so don't be surprised to see threads appear or dissapear at random. You have been warned brave fellow adventurers. Now get out there and have some fun!

-bigred

[scadugenga]

wow censered out of the most pointliss discussion ever

Perhaps that should tell you something about your post?

The clue-phone is ringing...

[Denzark]

Wow. I'm gutted to miss a hugely offensive comment to brighten the working day.

My tuppence worth:

Your letter is rambling and ranting. Also, you complain about the fluff for being sexist. You don't mention the other excellent contents of the game: xenophbia, religious intolerance, murder, genocide, WMD, and other aspects I am a fan of.

Therefore your mental compass is skewed; in short, by NOT complaining about the other issues you are tacitly complicit.

You are a sociopath and I claim my five pounds.

[Aldramelech]

Wow. I'm gutted to miss a hugely offensive comment to brighten the working day.

My tuppence worth:

Your letter is rambling and ranting. Also, you complain about the fluff for being sexist. You don't mention the other excellent contents of the game: xenophbia, religious intolerance, murder, genocide, WMD, and other aspects I am a fan of.

Therefore your mental compass is skewed; in short, by NOT complaining about the other issues you are tacitly complicit.

You are a sociopath and I claim my five pounds.

Aldramelechs Forum Burp, what happens when I compare two items (In this case some female anatomy) and ask which is best? Big word in bold followed by !

Like I said, about offensive as Abba really................

Im sure the Chief Commissar will be claiming that £5 for shoes and stuff ;)

[anal_parsons_project]

I <3 Aldramelech

[fuzzbuket]

Wow. I'm gutted to miss a hugely offensive comment to brighten the working day.

My tuppence worth:

Your letter is rambling and ranting. Also, you complain about the fluff for being sexist. You don't mention the other excellent contents of the game: xenophbia, religious intolerance, murder, genocide, WMD, and other aspects I am a fan of.

.

most entertaing comment of the year. (p.s. xenophobics high 5 :D i spent most of a french class learning that )

[Duke]

Thread closing tomorrow morning... Final arguments please.

Duke

[scadugenga]

Aldramelechs Forum Burp, what happens when I compare two items (In this case some female anatomy) and ask which is best? Big word in bold followed by !

Like I said, about offensive as Abba really................

Im sure the Chief Commissar will be claiming that £5 for shoes and stuff ;)

Whatever, you need to burp before you pimp the burp. Get that laptop fixed!

Abba, depending on where/when you are, is pretty effing offensive. ;P

I'm not taking that bet, re: Commissar. Odds are too stacked.

[fuzzbuket]

DUKE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

//

sadness aside that probs was the right thing to do, its just decesned into trolololos and flamewars!

[Kieranator K82]

Last?

[eldargal]

The offensive comment wasn't that offensive really. I thought it was quite amusing myself.

[Denzark]

Duke you may now award yourself a new epiphet: The Thread Slayer!

Bring it down, boot on neck, turn head away, put one finger in ear for 'elf n' safety, and put a aquick bolt round through its head.

On the subject of ladies anatomy, a good pub game I learnt in the Falklands was drink while you think - come up with as many names for ________ as you possibly can. Our highest was 58 names - although towards the end whole pints were being sunk as memories of childishness (and Roger's Profannisaurus) were trawled.

[Faultie]

Thread closing tomorrow morning... Final arguments please.

Duke
Crito, we owe a rooster to Asclepius. Please, don't forget to pay the debt.

[Denzark]

Crito, we owe a rooster to Asclepius. Please, don't forget to pay the debt.



Que?

[Gotthammer]

Socrate's last words, according to Plato.

[Faultie]

Socrate's last words, according to Plato.

Correct. As applies to this thread, I believe death is the best medicine. Let's just make sure Asclepius gets his due.

[Duke]

You sir are correct, death is the best medicine! ::loads one bolt in the chamber:: death to the infidel thread.

Duke