PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Space Marine Chosen & Infiltration



BlueRonin
08-25-2009, 03:10 AM
I was looking at a list and saw Chaos Space Marine Chosen listed with 4 Meltaguns mounted in a Rhino. Now there were still heavy support options left in the FOC, so I was wondering why the list designer had used Chosen instead of Havocs.

Then it occured to me that I was assuming that the Chosen's ability to Infiltrate is lost when mounted in a Rhino, yeah? I took a look in the Codex and couldn't find the usual "ability to Infiltrate is lost when mounted..." disclaimer. Am I still missing something, or can a unit of Chosen actually use their Infiltrators special rule even if they have taken a Rhino?

firestorm
08-25-2009, 03:56 AM
Wow, I've never noticed that before, but you're right... what a tremendous oversight!

I'm obviously not a power gamer, or someone who is unscrupulous about exploiting rules loop-holes, because I haven't noticed that at all in the two years I've had the current Chaos Codex.

I'll have to try it out before they correct it... ;)

MUMBLES
08-25-2009, 05:50 AM
They still get the infiltrate rule, but all it allows is for them to outflank if they want to. For infiltrate, you look in the BRB pp 75. "If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport, it cannot infiltrate."

However if you wanted to, you could infiltrate the chosen, and set up their transport as per the normal rules. You just can't put any other unit inside that rhino during deployment.

BlueRonin
08-25-2009, 06:41 AM
Yeah, that's what I was assuming too, due to the text of the USR; but I still feel it is an oversight that mounted Chosen held in reserve can outflank.

In this case, it explains why the list had mounted chosen w/meltadeath instead of Havocs, at least :)

Jwolf
08-25-2009, 09:48 AM
Only Scout transfers to the vehicle. Mounted Chose can't Outflank, as the unit entering play (the Rhino) does not have the ability to Outflank. This is much like the step-child of the "only ratlings and Al'Rahem can outflank in Valkyries" argument. Both are based on bad reading skills, and not supported by the rules.

Culven
08-25-2009, 10:06 AM
While Infiltrate won't transfer to the Vehicle in the way that Scouts does, the Outflank rule rule still allows the unit to Outflank in their Dedicated Transport (last sentence of the Outflank rule on page 94).

Jwolf
08-25-2009, 10:22 AM
It does. But I don't agree that that this applies to dedicated transports that are not themselves eligible to outflank. (thus only scouting models OR Al'Rahem Chimeras, more or less).

Culven
08-25-2009, 10:32 AM
It does. But I don't agree that that this applies to dedicated transports that are not themselves eligible to outflank. (thus only scouting models OR Al'Rahem Chimeras, more or less).
Why not?

The rule refers to "such units" (refering back to the previous reference of ". . . units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules. . ."which are "picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport". There is no qualifier that the Transport must have the USR. Therefore, it would seem that the rule is stating that a unit with Infiltrate and a Dedicated Transport may Outflank and enter play embarked in their Transport.

Jwolf
08-25-2009, 10:58 AM
Because the Scout USR has a call-out for the transport gaining Scout, which makes the Outflank rule consistent if the transport Outflanks with it's troops inside. I'm not clear where the oversight is, but I don't find the language clear enough to allow what I perceive as a signifcant advantage (to armies that I play).

Culven
08-25-2009, 11:05 AM
I think that the difference between Scout being conferred and Infiltrate not has more to do with allowing the Transport to make a Scout move and not permit the Chosen Rhino to Infiltrate, but allow either to Outflank. I think that the rules are clear, the fluff makes sense, and an Outflanking unit in a Transport isn't really overpowered.

AdamHarry
08-25-2009, 11:13 AM
"If a unit with this ability (infiltrate) is deployed in a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate." - pg.75

"If a unit with this ability (scout) is deployed in a dedicated transport vehicle, if confers the scout ability to the transport too." - pg. 76

therefore if you deploy the unit with infiltrate in a transport it looses infiltrate and cannot outflank.

If you deploy a unit with scout in a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers that ability to the transport and can now outflank.

Culven
08-25-2009, 11:27 AM
"If a unit with this ability (infiltrate) is deployed in a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate." - pg.75
therefore if you deploy the unit with infiltrate in a transport it looses infiltrate and cannot outflank.
Why would the unit lose Infiltrate? There is no rule saying that they lose the USR, only that they cannot Infiltrate if Deployed in a Transport. They still have the Infiltrate USR, and the Outflank rules (p. 94, Outflank, last sentence) states that "if such units {i.e. those with Scout or Infiltrate} are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport . . .".

Nabterayl
08-25-2009, 12:24 PM
Kudos to you for resolving an ambiguity in a way that is least favorable to you, Jwolf. For myself, speaking as somebody who doesn't have any outflanking transports, I'm with Culven.

The dispositive thing for me is the first sentence of the Outflank rule: "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

As page 87 makes clear, a squad of infantry and its dedicated transport are actually two units. That being the case, they could have left out the last sentence of the paragraph ("Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport ..."), and the result would be that a unit such as Chosen with a dedicated Rhino could only outflank on foot - just as you read the rule now.

Since they could have achieved your interpretation without adding the last sentence, it follows to me that the effect and intent of the last sentence must be to specify that dedicated transports belonging to units with access to outflank moves may themselves outflank, if the outflanking unit is embarked upon them (e.g., you cannot buy a unit of Chosen with a dedicated Rhino and both have the Rhino and Chosen outflank separately from one another).

Jwolf
08-25-2009, 12:54 PM
I completely agree with the quoted text to the point where it provides the ability for the transport, which is a unit in it's own right, to outflank. If the vehicle is occupied, you roll for the vehicle, not the passengers.

I'm not married to the idea, and I'd be happy with a clarification otherwise, but I don't see that the text is consistent for Infiltrate, whereas the text for Scout is clear.

Nabterayl
08-25-2009, 01:06 PM
I completely agree with the quoted text to the point where it provides the ability for the transport, which is a unit in it's own right, to outflank. If the vehicle is occupied, you roll for the vehicle, not the passengers.

I'm not married to the idea, and I'd be happy with a clarification otherwise, but I don't see that the text is consistent for Infiltrate, whereas the text for Scout is clear.

I'm not clear on what you're agreeing with. If you're saying that Chosen can outflank in their dedicated Rhino and that those two units are rolled for once when rolling for Reserves, I [perhaps obviously] agree with you.

If you're saying that a unit which can independently outflank and a transport which can independently outflank carrying that unit (e.g., a Valkyrie carrying a squad of ratlings) are rolled for once when rolling for Reserves, I agree with that too. Do people argue otherwise? "If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together" (p. 94) seems to foreclose that line of argument?