razorwing or voidraven?

[thecactusman17]

Today, I played two games involving Dark Eldar. In one I played as DE (750 points vs. Blood Angels) and in one against (Witch Hunters, 1850). In each, one of the new jet heavies made it onto the table.

In my game, I took the Razor. Weapon and gear loadout was 2 Disintegrators, 3 monoscythes, one shatterfield, a splinter cannon, and nightshields. The model killed two Sanguinary Guard and scared the crap out of my opponent until he glanced off one of the disintegrators. He killed this model with a bit of difficulty but it eventually fell to a long range blast from a dreadnought. The sheer amount of dice this thing could roll was outstanding. 6x S5 AP2 followed up by 6x P4+ AP5 AND the possibility for unloading up to four missiles at once for less than 175 points is well worth the cost IMO. I left the Dark Lances and anti-tank to the other units, though I'm wondering if that was a mistake.

The Void Raven also proved a fairly reliable unit. the void lances did a decent job popping tanks at range, but the void mine never came into play. the missiles were expended against a large but slightly spread out blob of sisters all at once, doing 23 wounds total.

I think that overall, the Razorwing was the better unit despite the better play by my opponent. the question is equipping it. the amount of firepower compared to the cost places the razorwing on a better level of efficiency especially at dealing with elite or massed infantry. With the right loadout, this unit is a powerful threat to infantry and vehicles alike.

What's your experience with them? also, can anyone with the Razorwing or Void Phoenix models describe what their table footprint is like? Are they large, or can they be represented easily with existing model sizes?

[isotope99]

The razorwing wins against infantry, especially hordes like orks, gaunts or blob IG and the void raven works best against mech (around 70% chance of at least glancing and 56% of penetrating). The void mine is pretty rubbish as far as I can tell (I read it that it can't be dropped at supersonic 36" speed) and therefore is only likely to see action against units that are very close. The use I can see for it is bombing units still bunched up after an assault close to your lines.

I don't have the FW Raven, but I do have a phoenix and it fits easily on a valkyrie base. I think you'd have a hard time balancing it on a regular flying base.

The real question is whether either is sufficiently better to justify their points and beat out ravager spam. For example, three dark lances have similar %s to the void raven's two void lances.

[OXRS]

A lot of people talk about how much cheaper the Razorwing is compared to the Voidraven, but I don't see it. The stock missiles are kind of a letdown compared with S7 with re-rolls to wound, so that's +20 for me. The twin linked splinter rifle needs to be upgraded to the splinter cannon to be worthwhile, so that's another +10. The Voidraven gets a discount on the better missiles (same price as monoscythe, while the Razorwing pays for the upgrade), so after all is said and done it's 10 points cheaper for 10 armour all around, two dark lances, splinter cannon and 4 shatterfield missiles, compared with 11 front and side armour, two void lances, a void mine instead of the splinter cannon and 4 shatterfield missiles.

This is personally how I run either of them, and the S9 lances and 11 armour have been worth it for me. I would rather take Ravagers over Razorwings with monoscythe missiles, so that's not really an option in my eyes. Monoscythe and shatterfield missiles both threaten infantry, but shatterfield threatens the same infantry, monstrous creatures and vehicles much more effectively. It's granted that the mine doesn't see as much use as it could, but I'm not exactly missing the poisoned attacks considering the rest of the army.

So, yes... The way I use them personally, it's the Ravager or the Voidraven. Never the Razorwing.

[w7west]

Really both of them are extremely dangerous. The razorwing can deliver so much anti infantry damage in one turn that even ig players will be scratching their heads. depending on the loadout it can then go on to support with anti tank or more anti infantry if anything is left. I would imagine if a nids or ork player saw you pull three of these out of your box they would just go home.

The voidraven is particularly nasty. I would suggest running two to three if you do take them in order to capitalize on their void mines. Since you are limited to 12" move when using them, keep your ravens close to punish any squads foolish enough to deep strike in with meltas. These are very important vehicles once you pay the points for them so nightsheilds and flickerfields are going to be mandatory. For missiles I would take one necroxin and one shatterfield on each so you get that little extra chance at pinning. If you have 20 spare points laying around grab some more missiles and the voidraven becomes an ungodly infantry killing machine from 48" away.

Is it worth the points instead of a ravager? I think it would be worth it to always include at least one of these guys in a 1000 point game, and two to three in 1500 - 2000. Above 2000 I wouldn't leave home without all three. If you like death and destruction on the highest level these planes are for you.

[BuFFo]

I took Razorwings in one of my up and coming battle reports, decked out with a splinter cannon, Disintegrators and Shadderpoop missiles, and wow, the anti infantry destruction is amazing.

If you take the Razorwing, I would go with a splinter cannon, 2 dissies and anti infantry missiles.

The voidraven is just for anti tank. It has two Lascannons with the Melta rule. That, in itself, is powerful. Oh so very powerful.

But as you can kit out either vehicle however you need, neither is better that the other. Both units are very well balanced with each other. Great unit design!

[Xas]

voidraven all for me. 4 shatterfield and both upgrades. this is the only plane that I can jsutify over a ravager (for anti tank) or some venoms (anti infantry) as it has s9 lances for usage when the missiles arent needed/already used.

the missiles are great (volley them all at once and you can make allmost every infantry unit vanish within one salvo) but not worth the whole price of the razorwing as I dont like the mix of splinter cannon and lances/desintegrators (if you could upgrade the 3rd gun to a lance or desintegrator we could talk).
however the ~80 you pay premium over a ravager for the voidraven with 4 missiles is what those missiles are easily worth for me (his 2 voidlances are roughly the same as the ravagers 3 lances).


so in a nutshell I'd say take the fliers only if you want the bombs. then the type depends on what "flavour" of ravager the replace. if you would take a 3 lance one take the voidraven, if you take the 3 desintegrator type get a razorwing with desintegrators and splinter cannon.

[DrBored]

Razorwing all the way.

One thing you should never do... shoot Shatterfield missiles at vehicles. Even at armor 10, you need to roll 3's to glance, and pray to the gods you don't glance because that's -3 to the result roll (-2 for glancing, -1 for AP -). As armor gets more powerful, the Shatterfield does even less.

Which brings me to a funny point. At str 7, you're wounding pretty much everything except t6+ things on a 2. Why bother with re-rolls to wound when you can have a Necrotoxin that also wounds EVERYTHING (including t6+) and also has a chance to pin the enemy, and ignores Guard, Ork, Nid, and other DE armor? I'm confused as to why nobody has mentioned the Necrotoxin missile. The Shatterfield isn't going to do much for anti-tank (unlike Dark Lances) so if you're going Razorwing, forget about popping tanks and leave that to your other units and take the Necrotoxin.

[OXRS]

Razorwing all the way.

One thing you should never do... shoot Shatterfield missiles at vehicles. Even at armor 10, you need to roll 3's to glance, and pray to the gods you don't glance because that's -3 to the result roll (-2 for glancing, -1 for AP -). As armor gets more powerful, the Shatterfield does even less.

Which brings me to a funny point. At str 7, you're wounding pretty much everything except t6+ things on a 2. Why bother with re-rolls to wound when you can have a Necrotoxin that also wounds EVERYTHING (including t6+) and also has a chance to pin the enemy, and ignores Guard, Ork, Nid, and other DE armor? I'm confused as to why nobody has mentioned the Necrotoxin missile. The Shatterfield isn't going to do much for anti-tank (unlike Dark Lances) so if you're going Razorwing, forget about popping tanks and leave that to your other units and take the Necrotoxin.

Most of the time you'll never target vehicles, but when you fire four large blasts there's a good chance you can catch one in the blast. Also, when you target a vehicle you can place the centre over any part of the vehicle, so if there are multiple infantry units near the vehicle it's possible to get more hits in that way. Either way, if you glance a vehicle it won't shoot next turn. That's one in the win column. Besides that point, you're shooting four of these missiles so there's a good chance you will get a penetrating hit in which can remove a weapon or immobilize. Shatterfield missiles do that better than monoscythe and necrotoxin can't do it at all. So no, I don't agree with you that you should never target vehicles. You should do what is tactically viable at the time. If the vehicle is your only target then it is a huge waste of missiles, but that's a gross over simplification.

Your funny point isn't so funny. First, 5+ armour saves are irrelevant. Are you even playing 5th edition? Everybody can get a cover save really easily. Sure, you can kill infantry out in the open but nearly any weapon can do that. Second, wounding on 2+ means you get 5/6 hits as wounds. Wounding 2+ with re-rolls means you wound 35/36 hits. I know which I'd prefer. I also prefer not allowing other Dark Eldar players, or IG command squads with medics, to take their FNP save. Against T6 you either wound on a poisoned 2+ or 3+ with re-rolls, which is damn close, with the slight edge going to necrotoxin. If you're shooting at a Wraithlord (T8), necrotoxin absolutely has the advantage, but you can just shoot at it with any other weapon in the army and the Wraithlord has a habit of dying.

I have more than enough poisoned weapons in my army, those kinds of attacks will never be in short supply. A little more isn't exactly appealing when there is an option that can fill a roll I don't have filled. If I want to wound mass infantry on 2+ and ignore 5+ armour, I won't spend the extra points and I'll just stick with monoscythe on a Razorwing, which also lets me ignore FNP in the same way as shatterfield. The big targets that necrotoxin would be more useful against still get their armour save, and are better dealt with using dark light weaponry or the high number of poisoned attacks that nearly any unit can provide.

As an afterthought, I almost forgot to mention pinning. I suppose if you run some Raiders with torment grenades right up to your target before you shoot, the pinning could be useful and that's a good application of the necrotoxin missiles. Other than that, pinning isn't reliable enough to be really considered, in my opinion. It's a nice bonus, but nothing to base a choice around. Also, a canny opponent is just as likely to go to ground, surviving a lot more shots.

[BlindGunn]

I've had 2 Razorwings ever since Forgeworld released them (I wanted to see what FW quality was like & they were the cheapest thing in the catalogue at the time). While the costing of the FW rules was horribly over-priced, using VDR and a couple of minor altercations made a wonderful fighter for decent points.

I also bought the VoidDragon when they released the rules to allow Dark Eldar to use it as well.

It's nice I can now use my models without asking permission! :D

However, IMHO, I think the Razorwing is a better bang for your buck under the new rules.

First of all - you get 4 missiles free. Admittedly, not the best missiles but you get them, regardless. They work fine (I know, I just plastered a Demonhunter's army this weekend with them).

You get both 2 Dark lances (used to be 1 twin-linked for anyone who cared) so you have 2 of the 3 AT shots of the Ravager.

Rifle is useless, so I admit, I auto upgrade to Splinter cannon for 10pts.

That's just 155pts. That's a good deal. (I do upgrade mine to include FlickerField & NightShield, but that's personal choice & optional. Mine are @ 175 as a result.) With this I can go after infantry (preferred) or vehicle targets. Missiles and Splinter cannon are useless against vehicles, but 2 dark lances makes it a pretty reliable anti-vehicle platform. In desperation I could upgrade a couple of missiles to Strength 7 Shatterfields for light stuff, but none of the missiles are really intended to take out vehicles.

If you really want anti-personel - drop the lances and go with Disintgrators & upgrade the rifle to Splinter Cannon. No Ravager can match the sheer number of potential wounds a properly equiped Razorwing can potentially put out! However, the Dark Lances are good enough to cause a couple of those unsavable woulds when I need them, too.


The Voidraven Bomber however, for the same points cost only gets you 2 Void Lances and 1 (ONE) Void Mine with a 3" blast! You do get better armour, so you are more-or-less invulnerable to massed bolter fire which is nice but required when you have to drop one of your main weapons by over-flying the target. You have the option to can carry up to 4 missiles, but you pay for each one. Implossion missile looks like fun, but do I want to spend 30 points each?

If going for anti-tank, the basic load is ok, the +1 strength of the Void Lance helps kill tanks. However, I wouldn't want to count on the mine for anything. I also wouldn't want to fly my bomber that close to a target as that's when lucky shots from Meltas, Plasma Rifles double-tapping and lots of other short rannged, high strength weapons become nasty. (Tau would glance you to death with all their strength 5 weapons.) Honestly, I think I'd prefer the extra lance of a 3-lance Ravager than the bomber at this point.

If going for anti-infantry, I would have to load up on missiles. That's an additional 40 points. Add in Flicker Field and suddenly you've spent 200pts+. Not worth it in my mind.

If they would "Errata" the rules so that you had a single mine/turn rather than just a single one-shot mine, I'd maybe consider it. Maybe include 2-4 "regular" Monoscyth missiles for free, it would at least make it worth the points.

However, as with all my advice - these are personal preferences. You need to experiment and see what works for you.

In truth, I'll probably buy both when (hoping) they release the new models anyway! :o

[DrBored]

Most of the time you'll never target vehicles, but when you fire four large blasts there's a good chance you can catch one in the blast. Also, when you target a vehicle you can place the centre over any part of the vehicle, so if there are multiple infantry units near the vehicle it's possible to get more hits in that way. Either way, if you glance a vehicle it won't shoot next turn. That's one in the win column. Besides that point, you're shooting four of these missiles so there's a good chance you will get a penetrating hit in which can remove a weapon or immobilize. Shatterfield missiles do that better than monoscythe and necrotoxin can't do it at all. So no, I don't agree with you that you should never target vehicles. You should do what is tactically viable at the time. If the vehicle is your only target then it is a huge waste of missiles, but that's a gross over simplification.

Your funny point isn't so funny. First, 5+ armour saves are irrelevant. Are you even playing 5th edition? Everybody can get a cover save really easily. Sure, you can kill infantry out in the open but nearly any weapon can do that. Second, wounding on 2+ means you get 5/6 hits as wounds. Wounding 2+ with re-rolls means you wound 35/36 hits. I know which I'd prefer. I also prefer not allowing other Dark Eldar players, or IG command squads with medics, to take their FNP save. Against T6 you either wound on a poisoned 2+ or 3+ with re-rolls, which is damn close, with the slight edge going to necrotoxin. If you're shooting at a Wraithlord (T8), necrotoxin absolutely has the advantage, but you can just shoot at it with any other weapon in the army and the Wraithlord has a habit of dying.

I have more than enough poisoned weapons in my army, those kinds of attacks will never be in short supply. A little more isn't exactly appealing when there is an option that can fill a roll I don't have filled. If I want to wound mass infantry on 2+ and ignore 5+ armour, I won't spend the extra points and I'll just stick with monoscythe on a Razorwing, which also lets me ignore FNP in the same way as shatterfield. The big targets that necrotoxin would be more useful against still get their armour save, and are better dealt with using dark light weaponry or the high number of poisoned attacks that nearly any unit can provide.

As an afterthought, I almost forgot to mention pinning. I suppose if you run some Raiders with torment grenades right up to your target before you shoot, the pinning could be useful and that's a good application of the necrotoxin missiles. Other than that, pinning isn't reliable enough to be really considered, in my opinion. It's a nice bonus, but nothing to base a choice around. Also, a canny opponent is just as likely to go to ground, surviving a lot more shots.

Well, your face.

In all seriousness, though I always hate it when I have to do so, you have some good points. The Shatterfield isn't ever going to do anything against vehicles (so long as that center hole is off of the hull, it's at half strength, so targeting infantry and hitting a tank is going to do squat) and targeting the vehicle in order to hit some infantry is just begging for a bad scatter.

So, I don't want to hear anything about these missiles being anything against vehicles when nearly everything in this army has str 8 ap 2 lance weapons.

[Fowlplaychiken]

You can actually only fire 1 missile per turn. The weapon counts as being fired from a single launcher...so its 1 shot a turn, up to 4 shots. Same with the bomber.

[gcsmith]

wat gives u the idea of 1 per turn, no where does it say a 4 shot launcher, it says 4 seperate missles.

[Dingareth]

You can actually only fire 1 missile per turn. The weapon counts as being fired from a single launcher...so its 1 shot a turn, up to 4 shots. Same with the bomber.

Yeah, you're a little off with this one bud.

[Sorrowshard]

The Void raven is annoying in that I would defo use it if you could defo drop the mine when flat out .....

Plus from the fluff , that mine should be ap 1 melta lance or something .... should just remove from play anything it touches (the fluff is awesome)

The rules on the mine are super ambiguous, the rule book itself specifically says the number of weapons you can fire in the SHOOTING PHASE are effected by how far you move , nothing about things you drop when you move, dethkoptas can do it ? reavers do something similar ?

It does not even follow standard blast rules , ffs , will it ignore cover like barrage weps ? where/how do you calculate cover from ? its technically shot from on top of the target !?

My current thinking is that the intention behind the 'counts as firing a weapon' caveat is to clarify for stunned/shaken results, specifically shaken.

Without that caveat, if shaken, I would just choose to go flat out the following turn for the save and drop the mine on the way. so it prevents that , shaken is a very important mechanic in the game. Hell even the bloody storm raven can fire a gun when flat out or stunned/shaken .....stoopid meq

On the razors, yeah desinti's seems like a solid idea as its obviously an infantry shredder, my only problem with that is that you just NEED plenty of dark lances in a DE list, lance performance seems very erratic, I often one -shot av 14 stuff and sometimes have to glance stuff to death with tens of lance shots , you simply cant have too many lances in a list , honestly I always feel a little short on them.....

just my 2p

[w7west]

sorrow I think you are right about the void mine. Counts as using a weapon would mean shaken / stunned could prevent you from using it when you move. I see no reason as to why we would not be able to drop it while turboboosting, in fact it seems that is exactly what it was designed to do.

[Sorrowshard]

Well until an FaQ enlightens everyone I'll have to continue playing the suck interpretation , GW is known for its Xeno nerfing faq's.

Its a deciding factor for me weather I take the Raven or not, if it can flat out and drop. I for one feel it should as you can hardly consider a piddly str 9 non ap 1, one use only blast as op.....

if it transpires it CAN I'll have three. The ambiguity of the rule has stopped me shelling out for some forge world phoenix models.

[somerandomdude]

Unfortunately, as written, you are right Sorrow, you can not fire when turboboosting (which makes a little bit of sense given the "pinpoint accuracy" reference in the fluff, even though these ARE star arena champions at the helm, and it makes it much more ineffectual)... and you are definately spot on about the injustice they've done when relating the rules to the fluff.

"So this mine, I drop it, and everything is annihilated? What about me? I'll be too close."
"It's so powerful that they made it create a forcefield first, so everything outside of the immediate blast is safe."
*drops mine*
"Why are those troopers still alive?"
"Oh, well they were on a patch of gravel that was slightly rougher than the rest of the battlefield, and that didn't get annihilated so they used it for cover from the pure darklight ball of energy that complete eradicates anything it touches in realspace... except gravel, of course."

At this point, the rules also make it sound as though the cover saves are taken from its final position, despite how little sense that makes. I would play it (and allow it to be played) as the same as barrage (direction for cover is from the center of the blast), although I'd also support the fluffy (meaning, no cover) version as well if someone wanted to do that to me.

The biggest problem with it is that it could potentially scatter onto the voidraven itself, and how often do bombers drop weaponry onto themselves? :D

[Drew da Destroya]

The biggest problem with it is that it could potentially scatter onto the voidraven itself, and how often do bombers drop weaponry onto themselves? :D

Somebody screwed up the trigger mechanism, and it blew up before it dropped?

My cousin once fired the battle cannon on a Defiler, which scattered backwards and hit itself. That was pretty impressive.

[Sorrowshard]

yeah, lol , you pretty much said it all ... it should just kill stuff dead ,the current rules mean you will be lucky to kill anything , jst read the entry in the fluff "a marvel of DE technology" lol

how the void weps are not ap 1 baffles me , infact IT just annoys me ....

look at a storm raven in comparison , its a joke

[GrenAcid]

You can actually only fire 1 missile per turn. The weapon counts as being fired from a single launcher...so its 1 shot a turn, up to 4 shots. Same with the bomber.

Rule you missing is Aerial Assault wich says at cruising speed you can shoot all of your weapons.

I find it bit odd for bomber to slow down for droping a bomb....especialy eldar bomber. Hope they make it clear on faq.

[w7west]

Turboboosting says you cannot fire any weapons. I turboboost my voidravens and drop void mines all day since I never fire a weapon. Read the void mine description.. no weapon fired. Counts as using a weapon as per shaken / stunned rules. Have fun bombing people at 36"

For those who make no distinction between using a weapon and firing a weapon: Reaver jetbikes

For those who still need convincing: Fliers are a nice chunk of change in GW's pocket. It is no coincidence that valkeries are the best unit in the game. With dark eldar fliers on the horizon, GW would be shooting themselves in the foot if they nerf this thing in the FAQ.

[GrenAcid]

They shoot themselves at moment someone aproved ONE bomb on BOMBER with no option to drop it while torbo boosting.

Anyway I just make some thinking and bit math, Razorwing with upgrades is 10 pt cheeper than voidraven with same toys, and have better AV and stronger lance, that speaks for itself.

[thecactusman17]

Turboboosting says you cannot fire any weapons. I turboboost my voidravens and drop void mines all day since I never fire a weapon. Read the void mine description.. no weapon fired. Counts as using a weapon as per shaken / stunned rules. Have fun bombing people at 36"

For those who make no distinction between using a weapon and firing a weapon: Reaver jetbikes

For those who still need convincing: Fliers are a nice chunk of change in GW's pocket. It is no coincidence that valkeries are the best unit in the game. With dark eldar fliers on the horizon, GW would be shooting themselves in the foot if they nerf this thing in the FAQ.

Nope. Reaver jetbikes have a piece of wargear that explicitly states that it works ONLY when turbo-boosting. Bladevanes are explicitly excluded from the rule due to the wording. Void mine description clearly states that you are using a weapon, and the flat-out rule clearly states you may take NO OTHER VOLUNTARY ACTIONS after choosing to move flat out.

[darthken]

yeah ive tried them out, i must say im loving the nectrotixin missiles the most ATM. drop 4 missiles on a unit the 1st turn and watch the toxin spread.
Just working on the old principle of the more dice he rolls for save's the more chance he has of failing some.

and ive just noticed that the dark eldar portion had been removed from the errata section of GW, not sure if this is new but ill pass it on anyway.

[w7west]

Nope. Reaver jetbikes have a piece of wargear that explicitly states that it works ONLY when turbo-boosting. Bladevanes are explicitly excluded from the rule due to the wording. Void mine description clearly states that you are using a weapon, and the flat-out rule clearly states you may take NO OTHER VOLUNTARY ACTIONS after choosing to move flat out.

actually you can do quite a few things while turboboosting. Tankshock is an obvious one, ramming is another. Neither of these are firing a weapon. Dropping a bomb is not firing a weapon either. Stunned/shaken states you may not use weapons which is probably why the description for bomber says "note this counts as using a weapon"

at no point does it mention anything about firing a weapon.

[somerandomdude]

actually you can do quite a few things while turboboosting. Tankshock is an obvious one, ramming is another. Neither of these are firing a weapon. Dropping a bomb is not firing a weapon either. Stunned/shaken states you may not use weapons which is probably why the description for bomber says "note this counts as using a weapon"

at no point does it mention anything about firing a weapon.

Wait... let me see if I understand what you're saying. Here are a couple rules that might need to be referenced:


DE Codex pg. 47
Void Mine:
Note that this counts as using a weapon.


BRB pg. 61
Crew - Shaken
The vehicle may not shoot until the end of its next turn.


BRB pg. 70
Fast Vehicles Firing
Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons.

So, according to you, the void mine can not be used if the voidraven is Shaken, but it can be used if the voidraven moves flat out. This is because the void mine does not use the word "fire" (or any variant)?

Technically, it doesn't even say "shoot" so if you're going to pull that sort of rules lawyering out of some unholy place then that sentence for the void mine has absolutely no effect.

When "firing" a weapon, is anything being used?

When "shooting" a weapon, is anything being used?

Is there any difference at all between "may not shoot" and "may (not) fire"?

Common sense, or basic reading skills, tell us that the void mine can not be used if the voidraven moves flat out.

I understand you want it to work during flat out, but your best bet for that is to talk to your opponent, explain your view, rationalize with them, and see if they agree. It's not to tell them "It doesn't say anything in there about firing, so I can fire."

NOTE: As far as I know, the phrase "use a weapon" or any variation does not appear anywhere in the BRB.

Edit: Fast vehicles don't turboboost, they move flat out. Anything that turboboosts can not do anything else voluntary that turn, so thecactusman was technically correct.

[Sorrowshard]

Hey

I understand this may be a little cagey , but It only really occurred to me today. A deepstriking void raven can fire all weapons right ? due to arial assault , and counts as moving combat speed.

can you /how would you go about dropping the mine on the turn you deepstrike ? is there any much value in doing so ? what do people think ?

Am I just too desperate to find something / anything, good about the mine ? is this something else that will need clarifying in the faq ? or is it clear cut and Im being blinded by desperation ?

Cheers

[somerandomdude]

It doesn't pass over any model during that Movement phase. Even if it scattered from where you tried to put it, it wouldn't be passing over anything, because it never was in that previous spot. Also, the deep strike arrival happens before the movement phase anyway, and no moving can be done in the moving phase, which is when the void mine is dropped.

That sounds like a wonderful house rule if you can get your friends to allow it, but otherwise you can't do it. Swooping Hawks can do it, but not the Voidraven.

[Sorrowshard]

yeah I figured as much ..... it truly is a steaming pile of guff ,

A triple str9 lance alpha strike would be fairly good , weather it is good enough to risk dropping in that close to the enemy is another matter entirely. Still completely unclear how one is supposed to work out cover for it.

To be honest its so crap I doubt Ill ever bother to use it , If the bomber can only move 12 to drop it'll have to start on top of the target vehicle so it can use the 12 inches to just about make the other side .... if you are within 2" of an enemy vehicle you are likely doing something wrong ....

[GrenAcid]

That sounds like a wonderful house rule if you can get your friends to allow it, but otherwise you can't do it. Swooping Hawks can do it, but not the Voidraven.

Great idea....but theres no way that bunch im plaing with gonna agree with it. Thx for pointing that.

[Porty1119]

This kind of (attempted, thank the Emperor) rules-lawyering makes 40k as a whole look bad, but it's also good that people aren't always obnoxious about it.

By the way, did you know that a Leman Russ' turret weapon can't be shaken/stunned? It may "always be fired in addition to any weapons that may also be fired" or something to that effect. It may be fired in addition to (if shaken/stunned) nothing. ROFL if this is right!

[thecactusman17]

No, i'm afraid not. The way that it is worded is pretty specific. Let's compare it to a Land Raider, with Power of the machine Spirit, which states "may always fire one more weapon than it would normally be allowed to." That definitely includes a weapon that normally can't be fired do to shaken/stunned. The Russ cannon may always be fired IN ADDITION TO any weapons that may ALSO BE FIRED." This is very specific--if other weapons can fire, then you may fire the main turret weapon even if doing so would violate the normal firing restrictions for the vehicle (1 main + defensive).

Also, I've stopped taking Disintegrators on my Razorwings for a very simple reason: two dark lances not only gives them the ability to wound high toughness units, but it also makes it much easier to harm enemy vehicles early in the game. Against transport heavy armies I can now dump enemy units out without having to expose my fragile Raiders to return fire. Naturally, this is a very big boon to the Razor (and its friends) for eventually using all those missiles.

[Drew da Destroya]

Don't you have Lances in the rest of your army? Like, on all of those Raiders? Let those do the vehicle-popping, then the Anti-Infantry aircraft can do the dropping (of pie plates, Ap2 firepower, and some splinter cannon).

[Sorrowshard]

Its a little more difficult than that , heavy support is where the highest concentration of lances can be bought from in the book , 9 over three ravagers for 300 ish points is hard to beat , by loosing lances on your heavy support choices you gimp your long ranged firepower actual mobile 36" range mobile lances are much harder to get enough of using the rest of the book.

I would like to try desinti's on a Razorwing also , but I have a feeling the lances will be needed.

[Archon Charybdis]

I'm with Drew, (Dark) Eldar units are specialists, and shouldn't try to multi-task. In the case of the Razorwing, mine typically only survives one round after coming out of reserves. My only real option to use it viably is to pick a big/expensive enough unit, blow all my missiles at once, and then wait to die. I'm not gonna get a chance to use those lances, and taking them over dissies runs counter to what I think is very clearly it's primary role--shredding infantry.

[Sorrowshard]

Actually in the new book , many of the units do perform two roles , scourges for example , come with carbines (infantry shredding) but are some of your only access to melta (guess what you need that for?)

Same is true of of reavers , the fighter also comes equipped as a generalist to name but a few, I think there are no cut and dry X is better than Y in lots of cases with the DE list. Sometimes it just boils down to what you need in the list and what supplies it most effectively.

I think disintegrators will work in some builds and dark lances in others. Its just I feel in most builds you will want to lean towards the lances unless you have compensated for their lack elsewhere. Which as I said, can be difficult due to the distribution ,availability and cost of them throughout the book as a whole.

you need to be thinking in terms of getting stuff opened before the jet arrives so you can unload those missiles asap. If you have no target for it there is a good chance it may never get to fire them.

[BlindGunn]

I think disintegrators will work in some builds and dark lances in others. Its just I feel in most builds you will want to lean towards the lances unless you have compensated for their lack elsewhere. Which as I said, can be difficult due to the distribution ,availability and cost of them throughout the book as a whole.

you need to be thinking in terms of getting stuff opened before the jet arrives so you can unload those missiles asap. If you have no target for it there is a good chance it may never get to fire them.
I think you've got the right idea. Either you need to pop-open those canned infantry or the Jets aren't going to be as successful an option as they could be.

Both jets can be equipped to open up the vehicles themselves, but you miss the opportunity to use the missiles in the same turn.

If I wanted to use a Jet as anti-vehicle, it would be the Voidraven with it's new lances. I just want the rules fixed/cleared up regarding the mine.

Any guesses when the FAQ will be out for Dark Eldar?

[Sorrowshard]

Dunno ,but certain things in the book have me annoyed enough to write in, I'm collecting others opinions too , but that damn mine needs fixing or taking off , as it is now its so terribad its very presence annoys me, I would rather go without "the dreaded void mine" entirely , it truly is a wonder of DE technology , as in i WONDER what happened to the mine described in the text ....

[Drew da Destroya]

Yeah, that Void Mine... swing and a miss. Not a big fan. The Void Lances are pretty cool, though, but overall I prefer the Razorwing fighter.

Now, that's just gut reaction, since I haven't used either in a game yet. Still testing the Elites section!

[GrenAcid]

Both jets can be equipped to open up the vehicles themselves, but you miss the opportunity to use the missiles in the same turn.

You can always shoot evrything on vehicle and hope 4 big blasts gonna cover guys around can:p

Waitin for Faq...

[BlindGunn]

You can always shoot evrything on vehicle and hope 4 big blasts gonna cover guys around can:p

Waitin for Faq...
I know what you're saying, but it seems a waste of a one-shot weapon (or more, if you want to unload before the Jet gets blown up). Mind you, better to waste them than to loose them, I guess.

Usually, if I'm firing at a "canned infantry" formation with a fighter - the infantry is ALL in cans, no other infantry targets available on the table.

(It's one of the reasons I leave Dark Lances on the Razorwing. I like to be able to do SOMETHING with it every turn. 2 shots at a tank is better than 6 shots at nothing. Splinter Cannon and missiles provides lots of anti-infantry wounds per turn.)