New Force Organization Slot

[JxKxR]

So with the way the force organization goes now you can have 1-2 HQ, 2-6 Troop, 0-3 Elite, 0-3 Fast Attack, and 0-3 Heavy support. So I was wondering if GW added another group into the mix what would it be? I think this change could actually be coming in the form of flyers soon, maybe in WH40k 6th, but then again I doubt they would add a force organization slot.

Personally I would love to see every army with an assassin slot, I think that maybe there used to be one. They could be customizable and maybe take over the role of snipers which IMHO don't work. I could see giving them the ability to pick out which model out of a unit they want to kill and if the unit is fearless or something then they get to roll off to see if they can.

What do you think? Could Assassins for every army work? Would flyers work with there own slot? Is there something out there that I'm not thinking of that could use it's own slot?

[eagleboy7259]

I don't see the necessity for adding an additonal slot. If you wanted to do something like that you could easily do it within the current system, just make the assassin 0-1 and doen't take up a slot for being an elites choice. There are a couple of units in the game right now that do that. I hope to god that they don't let flyers ruin 40k, they ruined DOW after all.

[Drew da Destroya]

It could be a 0-1 Superheavy slot. Throw flyers and superheavies in there, and push up the sales on Baneblades and Stompas.

[DrLove42]

I hope to god super heavies never make the 40K regular tabletop. They are way OP for their points...Fired properly a baneblade can kill an entire 1500 point list in one turn...and a stompa with a super dakka blasta can theoretically kill any army in one turn (theoretically infinite ammo)

[Orannis]

Rumors are that White Dwarf are releasing Flyer rules. Maybe then we'd see them in smaller 40k games.

[Renegade]

Spearhead, the rules for it are already out there and it would be great if it was more than just an expansion.

[SotonShades]

In fairness, flyers have had rules in 40k for the last 8 or 9 years thanks to Forge World. They were even featured in a couple of WD articles before apocolypse. The problem was always, and I think will always be, the size of the tables/boards most people use for 40k. They are just too small to represent the way fliers work on the battlefield (although we all can think of examples of units in nearly all armies with similar problems).

I can't see flyers working in regular 40k, and as DrLove said, most superheavies are overpowered for normal 40k (and purposefully so, to help clear the swathes of models you can set up in an Apocolypse game). I can't really see an Assassin slot working either. Most armies do have an Assassin of some description, or as eagleboy suggested, you could quite easilly slot them in as some form of Elite, whether counting towards the FOC or not.

I suppose you could have a support slot, allowing you to take assets similar to those in planetstrike or apocolypse (though possibly less powerful). These could represent artillary/orbital bombardments, snipers from beyond the table edge, the bolster in morale troops get knowing replacements/resupply are on the way... there could be a few in the main rulebook, and several in each of the codicies for some army specific support types. I can imagine Guard bringing down big artillary barages, Space Marines becoming more stoic and resistent as they become more and more outnumbered, Eldar being able to withdraw and redploy on a different table edge. You could even have meat-grinder type supports where units/troops that have been destroyed could come back as reserves. While you'd have to pay for these support aspects, I think they could possibly lead to some really interesting army builds.

I guess in many ways this is similar to what we have seen with special characters that change army builds, or even the Doctrine system from the old Guard Codex.

[Mal]

Fliers are not an issue, any rule published in IA or WD is an optional upgrade for the game and you need your opponents permission to use them.

So if you don't like fliers, just say no.

Problem solved.

[eagleboy7259]

Ah but if flyer rules become mainstreamed under a GW ruleset what is to become of the tournement scene? I suppose they could say damn GW we're using our own rules set, but 90% of them would still allow flyers.

[Porty1119]

Flyers are the future. Just be afraid when Alfa Company, Krandor 116th Airborne, starts bringing Su-30MKIs to the table!!!

[Xas]

I hope to god super heavies never make the 40K regular tabletop. They are way OP for their points...Fired properly a baneblade can kill an entire 1500 point list in one turn...and a stompa with a super dakka blasta can theoretically kill any army in one turn (theoretically infinite ammo)

this is the most stupid statement I've ever read on all the forums I've ever ever visited.

Unless you design a 1500 points list to the task of fitting under the baneblades one pie-plate and demolisher cannon and both of them hit and you wound everything there is no way in hell you can do that.

most things the baneblade can do a squadron of 3 leman russ can do as well and is overall harder to kill (no chain reaction!)

[Melissia]

Elites work just fine.

[Melissia]

most things the baneblade can do a squadron of 3 leman russ can do as well and is overall harder to kill (no chain reaction!)

A squadron of three Leman Russ tanks is actually pretty easy to kill.

[gwensdad]

A squadron of three Leman Russ tanks is actually pretty easy to kill.

yeah, 1 uber-character charging in and 1 lose 3 tanks. :(
Maybe I need to shift to 3 basilisks. (easy to kill but cheaper)

[DarkLink]

this is the most stupid statement I've ever read on all the forums I've ever ever visited.


Read the forum posting rules and check your attitude. We're all friends here.

[eagleboy7259]

Woah, who are you guys playing that you don't get a lil worried when you see a banblade or 3 leman russ on the table @ 1500pts?

[Melissia]

Three Leman Russ tanks is scary.

A squadron of three Leman Russ tanks is not so scary.

[Duke]

True three is for sure better than a squa of three, it's almost as if gw threw out synergy. Also, I have killed a lot more than 1500 points with one superheavy round of shooting... Hence why I'm not allowed to bring out my superheavies any longer.

Duke

[L192837465]

My new rule of thumb is "Go apocalypse or go home!" Screw the force org chart, screw kp. It's all about objectives and story!

[Lerra]

I do think the FOC is too limiting, but there are probably easier ways to expand it than adding another category. I wouldn't be surprised to see 6th ed 40k go the way of 8th edition Fantasy, with the percentage based system for army building. Some armies fill up the FOC very quickly (Chaos Daemons, Tau). I've got a Tau list where every single FOC slot is filled before I hit 2k points, and it's frustrating.

[eagleboy7259]

I think that's because 40k was intended to be played around 1500pt - 1850pt. I know alot of the older books are geared towards it, although the newer ones aim higher. I straight up don't like 2000pt, the more pieces each army is able to put on the table, the more unbalanced the game becomes, and thus cheese-ing and listing are almost required in competitive tournaments of this points limit.

[Melissia]

Just based off of the various tournies I've heard about in the US and UK, I'd say fifth edition is geared around 2k points. Older edition books were geared around 1500-1750.

[JxKxR]

Just based off of the various tournies I've heard about in the US and UK, I'd say fifth edition is geared around 2k points. Older edition books were geared around 1500-1750.

I honestly never noticed this before but just looking at the Tau it really shows. Does anyone think that the next round of codex will see armies geared towards 2025-2050?

[Porty1119]

The thing is...past 1000-1500 points, as a student with very little income, 40k's cost just becomes prohibitive.

[JxKxR]

The thing is...past 1000-1500 points, as a student with very little income, 40k's cost just becomes prohibitive.

GW should really come up with a scaled down version of 40k for the casual gamers and gamers on budgets, but that's not what they want to push. They want to push supplemental games like spearhead and apocalypse so you buy lots of high priced tanks. That is why I think we are about to start seeing more flyers. I actually think flyers might be able to work on the same board as a regular 40k game if they weren't so big like the valkyrie. Like if they were scaled down quite a bit to represent there high altitude and make there movement seem more to scale. Maybe it could also be away of disrupting deepstrikeing, like shooting drop pods.

[SotonShades]

AT GDUK this year they had several of the armies they use to playtest 40k on show, both for the new edition and for new codicies. All of them were 1500 points, so I can only assume that this is the actual points cost GW are aiming for. The fact that there are so many units you would want to take, and therefore cannot fit into a 1500 point list is simply to encourage different army builds and make the player make some hard choices.

While I know some will say that this means GW wont sell as many models this way compared to gearing the game for 2000 points list, most of the gamers i know have a main list at 1500 points, with at least another 500 points (more commonly arouns 1000 points) of units they can swap and change to create different lists. I don't think GW would be so nieve as to think hobbiests don't do this.

GW doesnt need to make a scaled down version of 40k. Most lists (apart from necrons) work pretty well down to around 500 points, so long as you dont go with crazy tooled up characters/units. Though you do need to play on a smaller board (or for more turns) usually, to get the models closer together.

[Renegade]

People make way to much out of Super Heavies. Had a dread nearly take out a Shadow Sword in one round of shooting, the super heavy was left having to hide as one more pen and it would be dead, my dread died to mass shooting.

[Old_Paladin]

GW should really come up with a scaled down version of 40k for the casual gamers and gamers on budgets, but that's not what they want to push. They want to push supplemental games like spearhead and apocalypse so you buy lots of high priced tanks.

They did, and it's still pretty valid.
40K in 40 Minutes, 40K in a Flask, etc.

And they do; the kill-team game in the Missions book.

You can also just play 500/750/1000/1200 point games with your friends or at your local club; there is nothing in the rules that prohibit smaller games (except a few armies, like 'Crons, get almost no choices).
Adepticon also runs small games for both 40K and Fantasy, if you need some ground rules.

Remember GW tells you to make up your own rules, and play games the way you want.

Even the expansions can be used in small games, with minor tweaks.
A 600 point game of Spearhead could be fun (using nothing but vehicles).
A Space Marine force of a dread, a Predator, a Vindicator and an 'Armoured Formation' Predator; vs. an IG force of an auto-cannon chimera, a devildog, a 'chimeradon' [chimera with battlecannon; for those that don't remember Epic] a Vanquisher and some 'tank hunter formation' sentinals.

[Aldramelech]

I see no reason for an additional force slot, none at all. GW can spew out as many expansions with stupid points values as they like, it all leaves me cold, 1500pts is where its at and thats where I'll stay and TBH It aint very often I go that high.

I dont see that being a 40K gamer carries any obligation to spend the GDP of a small country on GW products every year.

[Old_Paladin]

People make way to much out of Super Heavies. Had a dread nearly take out a Shadow Sword in one round of shooting, the super heavy was left having to hide as one more pen and it would be dead, my dread died to mass shooting.

It's usually not superheavies, so much as it is Titans and/or strength D weapons. A warhound scout with dual turbolasers is very different then facing a baneblade.
You should also recognize that you got pretty lucky with your shooting, and that if your opponent bothered to fire its very long ranged strength D weapon at you (instead of backing off and hiding it) whatever it hit would have pretty much been removed.


In regards to the main topic, I really don't see a need for additional kinds of slots. Everything fits in pretty well.

[Renegade]

ou should also recognize that you got pretty lucky with your shootingFunny you mention that, the Asscannon either does really well, or fails completely. But that big tank bearly got to use its big gun, and I think it did try it on my Ven Dread, but the reroll made a penetrating hit little more than a scratch, its only BS3 dont forget. I see your titan abd raise you 2 Valdors ;)

[Old_Paladin]

I see your titan and raise you 2 Valdors ;)

I'ma callin' your bluff!
The Reaver Titan vs. any 1500 point standard army! Show me what your holdin'.

[Renegade]

The Reaver Titan vs. any 1500 point standard army! Cant take 2 Valdors unless using IA lists :P Which is why I am so in favour of IA entering the mainstream and Spearheads being normal as part of the FOC.

A bit lazy as far as lists go, but 6 Vanquishers, 3 devil dogs, 2 penal legions to take objective that you cant, because as far as I know, Titans cant score! :P