Investments in Raiders

[w7west]

So you have a nice flying ship that you would like to upgrade. Sounds reasonable, right? Who doesn't want to bling their boats out?

Lets look at a few of the common upgrades that have players new to dark eldar paying premium points for:

-Night shields:
Pretty nifty idea, although it has already been play tested for 12 or so years, so it is nothing new. Don't expect it to save your raiders in any way from heavy weapon fire. If you are really cocky you can put these on your ravagers and try to outrange a firewarrior squad or something. Your raiders and venoms will be heading directly towards the heavy weapons at breakneck speed so there is no range denial happening vs missile launchers and lascannons.

The most effective use for these is against deepstriking meltaguns. It is impossible to get double dice for penetration, although meltaguns already glance on a 2+.

Try this one out a few times if you haven't played with it already, but these points are better spent elsewhere.


-Flickerfield:
This idea ranks as being neat. 5+ invuln yes please I hard invuln saves r gud! Raiders are giant targets to enemy fire on the first few turns of the game. If you want to be doing it right, however, you will be trying to disembark whatever the raider is carrying as fast as possible. This is because raiders are prone to blowing up and killing half of what is inside, and sealing the deal with a pinning / leadership check for your ld 8. Who cares? Invuln saves are kool man!

True, they certainly are cool, but what is even cooler is using the 4+ save you just got from turboboosting. You are turboboosting anyway to get your squad where they need to be right? right??? >.<

The only time flickerfields will be useful is when something that hasnt turboboosted is getting shot at or assaulted. If you are doing it right this will mean your raider already dropped off it's payload and at that point is just harassing and trying to maybe pop a tank. If your opponent is shooting at the raider at this point either you or your opponent messed up pretty badly somewhere.

Those are the two common upgrades I see taken but step back and think about exactly what you are spending your points on. Would you rather have a sixth raider or have each of your 5 raiders come with some more stuff that is going to get blown up?

[BuFFo]

All my vehicles comes with Flickerfield STOCK.

It is just too good an upgrade to pass up, especially when it has saved my Radier from being beat to death by Thunderhammers lol.

Old DE dex - Raiders die turn 2

New DE dex - Raiders survive the entire game.

For 10 points? Yes please.

[house_cawdor]

I agree with Buffo on the Flickerfield, they are worth it just like the disruption pod is worth it for Tau. Ill take a 5++ over nothing for 10 pts.

Its funny to see how Buffo has changed his mind since he has used it!

BTW Buffo we live in the same state!

[Xas]

you forgot something important:
both the shield and the field are very valuable to shooty raiders/raiders that work as pillboxes.

it doesnt help much against lascannons, missiles and autocannons but it does allow you to outrange heavy bolters and multilaser as well as all rapid fire weapons. In addition it means that only those weapons a further 6" from your target are going to shoot you back while it is 12" without the upgrade. if you are good at guessing ranges and maneuvring you can actually outshoot a chimeara spam-guard list.

turn 1-2 dismantle his tanks while beeing virtually immune to any return fire (you should have enough lances to at least stun the first row of chims and the other wont have range/cannot move trough their friends) thanks to -6" range. turn 3-4 go in for the kill on the defenseless infantry and mop up the rest of the tanks. turn 5-7 table him or go for an objective or two.

[DarkLink]

Right, you only get a 4+ cover save when you turbo-boost. And that prevents you from doing else that turn. You have to eventually disembark the squad inside.

Or, you could just get flickerfields and not have to worry about having to turboboost every turn. Not like they're expensive.

[DrBored]

I'm not too impressed by either upgrade, actually. A skilled opponent is going to focus-fire on your squishiest Raiders with their Missile Launchers and Lascannons anyway, so ignoring 1/3rd of that means that 2/3rds of those shots still get in, and being AV 10 and Open-Topped, your vehicles are going to die anyway, so why bother with the Flickerfield? Yeah it'll be awesome when you shrug off a Lascannon shot, but when you get three Lascannons to the same vehicle and explode, you'll think to yourself 'Man, and that 10 points could have been spent elsewhere for more killy stuff..'

The Night Shields are what I see as being useful. Suddenly those rapid-fire weapons have to be within 18" in order to get off a single shot, which is assault-range for me next turn. It's mostly useful against those Rapid Fire and Melta weapons, but like was mentioned, Lascannons and Missile Launchers are going to hit anyway.

Remember that the Dark Eldar are a glass cannon. Yes, having survivable vehicles may seem like a great idea, but if you're running a list with 4-6 Raiders and 3 Ravagers or something, those 10-point upgrades add up to a lot of points you could be spending on killing things in the first turns.

So, test them out, it'll be interesting to see what makes it onto the 'WAAC' and net lists.

[RIGHT-Titan]

I'd be pretty ok if my enemy is using 3 or more lascannons to kill a raider tbh.

3 killing one raider is well worth 10 points if it means those same 3 lascannons didn't kill 1 raider each.

[w7west]

Lets take a look at some of the responses so far, as I think some make good points.

Use as pillbox:

Ah the good old shooty dark eldar argument. Let me start by saying the following focuses on the raiders, not venoms. Both night shields and flicker fields can be useful if you plan on keeping shooty squads embarked in their raider. You can sit back, out-ranging those pesky multi lasers by 6" if you are rediculously pro at spotting 36". Lets assume for the sake of argument you do have the ability to do this reliably. So what are we going to put in this raider?

We want something shooty right? So that probably means some variation of warriors be it kabalite or trueborn. You can get a lance or two in there and if you don't move you can shoot them. Another option is trueborn with blasters, since you can move 6" and still fire out 18". This means you will need to get much closer than 36 but still it could be good depending on who you are playing.

However, there is a major flaw in the "lets stay in this raider while we shoot" way of playing. Warriors are not space marines. They are not toughness 4 with amazing saves that can handle their transport getting blown up. You will learn very quickly just how hard squads get hit when their raider does explode. In fact, in most cases it is actually safer to be outside of the raider than in it during your opponents shooting phase. Leadership has improved a bit since the last codex but nonetheless t3 with 5+ saves will mean a lot of casualties if your opponent is smart enough to include one or two range > 36 weapons in his army. (or something that deepstrikes!)

Spend a turn moving your raiders where they need to be and deploying those lancers into cover and you will be much better off compared to the fairly high probability to losing an entire squad to a missile launcher shot just because you wanted to stay in your transport. Wyche squads should obviously be turboboosting or going for the first turn assault if deployment allows.


Overall durability:

Buffo that is great that you can get your raiders to last much longer with the aide of the 5+ invuln. It is no easy feat to keep the majority of your raiders up throughout the game.

Another way to protect your raiders is to get the wyches stuck in with the squads that are shooting at the raiders. You certainly will lose a raider or two on the way in, but turboboosting will mean those fangs get only a single turn of missile volleys, and it is pretty obvious which raiders they will be shooting at (the ones with naked drugged up elf pirates flying straight at them) This lets the rest of your raiders and venoms advance under much lighter fire and get those squads into position to do some damage.

I find that empty raiders get shot at quite a bit less than raiders full of squishy but very killy squads... once again the recurring theme here is get those guys out of the raider and where they need to be as quickly as possible. Once your guys are out the raiders are free to shoot their lances at stuff knowing that your opponent has much bigger things to worry about than taking down empty raiders.

Using this technique I rarely lose any raiders other than one or two wyche raiders on the first turn. It is often necessary to throw a distraction unit into your opponents face in order for the rest of your army to actually win you the game (wyches = distraction unit in case some of you are confused and think they are killy).

[BuFFo]

I agree with Buffo on the Flickerfield, they are worth it just like the disruption pod is worth it for Tau. Ill take a 5++ over nothing for 10 pts.

Its funny to see how Buffo has changed his mind since he has used it!

BTW Buffo we live in the same state!

Oh yeah, I am always open minded in life. One day I may say one thing, but learn better, and then change my mind!

Where in Florida do you game?

[Porty1119]

Buffo, you too hail from the unshine state of FL? I'm from Tampa!!! Have you been to Armada Games?

[The Archon]

One thing you have to look at is what you are intending for your Raiders to do, and what they will be used for. If the Raiders are going to be used to deploy close combat squads of Wyches, Warriors, Incubi, etc., then you will not want to use many vehicle upgrades, because by the end of turn number one, they will be within range of a lot of enemy firepower, and more than likely, be destroyed after they drop their payloads. Most opponents will be able to deploy so that they will be able to see your Raiders with a lot of long range, heavy weaponry. If this is the case, you should at least take Flickerfields. If you can find a weakness in their deployment, and there is a possibility of exploiting it, you should attempt to flank your opponent's forces so that you will take as little enemy fire as possible (which you should be trying to do in most cases anyway).

If you are going to be using the Raiders as mobile firebases, which should be fairly rare, such as playing against heavy close combat lists, like Tyranids, or World Eaters, then you may want to reconsider using those upgrades. Close Combat lists are going to try and tear you apart using short range weapons, and close combat attacks. At that point, you will want to use Night Shields AND Flickerfields, because nothing will frustrate your opponent more than not being able to immobilize your skimmers because they aren't within 6 inches, and if they are within range of that lone Meltagun, not being able to punch through the Flickerfield. With this advantage, you will be able to fly circles around these types of lists. This is also the only real time that I could see using a Venom over a Raider. The Venom seems like a great vehicle for zooming around the board, setting up a position, and laying waste to enemy ground forces with Heavy Splinter Cannon fire.

Now, with all that being said, we also have tournaments to prepare for, and your lists may not be able to change from game to game. In these cases, it is much better to have the upgrades, rather than not, because you have to be prepared for anything. At this point, you look at the upgrades, and as I have found, the only upgrades I think worth considering are Night Shields and Flickerfields. Everything else seems too situational to be of any real benefit. Against most armies, you will see long range heavy weapons, or heavy short range firepower. There are far too many of these weapons out there not to be prepared for them.

In summary, Night Shields and Flickerfields are a must on Raiders. I would rather be saying "Wow, I didn't even have to use those upgrades.", rather than saying "Wow, I wish I had taken those Night Shields.".

- The Archon

[BuFFo]

Buffo, you too hail from the unshine state of FL? I'm from Tampa!!! Have you been to Armada Games?

Armada games? That sounds familiar... Who runs the place?

[DrBored]

BuFFo's all the way on the other side of the state.. If you're ever in Sarasota, drop on in at Dark Side Comics on Beneva. Good shop, lots of space, neat tables, wargaming tuesdays, thursdays, and saturdays, most times.

But anyway, onto the topic...

Wyches.. as a distraction? I have to disagree. There are great ways to make those Wyches fully killy, either through webway portals or by blasting those Raiders straight forward. If you're not getting first turn and you have your Wyches way out front as a 'distraction', you're doing it wrong. Wyches are THE premier close-combat anti-close combat unit that the Dark Eldar have. Getting them into close combat is imperative, and then you'll see how killy they can be.

[w7west]

Wyches.. as a distraction? I have to disagree. There are great ways to make those Wyches fully killy, either through webway portals or by blasting those Raiders straight forward. If you're not getting first turn and you have your Wyches way out front as a 'distraction', you're doing it wrong. Wyches are THE premier close-combat anti-close combat unit that the Dark Eldar have. Getting them into close combat is imperative, and then you'll see how killy they can be.

I agree with you that wyches certainly want to be in close combat, since wyches out of close combat during an opposing shooting phase will die if they are in range of a few guns. They are an excellent close combat squad when it comes to speedbumping deathstar units or taking out weak combat squads like guard or tau. The problem comes when assaulting any squad that is mediocre to pretty good in cc. I am talking about things like bererkers, slugga boyz, space wolf troops, etc. Str 3 just doesnt do very much damage against durable squads. Assault a squad of berzerkers and you will see what I mean.

[Splug]

I agree with you that wyches certainly want to be in close combat, since wyches out of close combat during an opposing shooting phase will die if they are in range of a few guns. They are an excellent close combat squad when it comes to speedbumping deathstar units or taking out weak combat squads like guard or tau. The problem comes when assaulting any squad that is mediocre to pretty good in cc. I am talking about things like bererkers, slugga boyz, space wolf troops, etc. Str 3 just doesnt do very much damage against durable squads. Assault a squad of berzerkers and you will see what I mean.I completely agree here - though with the caveat that they should rarely be running off their base statline alone. Combat drugs and power through pain give them the potential to be quite a bit more dangerous than S3 non-power weapon attacks - furious charge, +1 STR, or rerolls to wound suddenly allow the squad to put down non-trivial numbers of armor saves... at least enough to not lose combat to codex: space marine tactical squads. I certainly think the squads are best used as a lockdown for devastators/long fangs/melta bikes against a power armor force, unless they're able to outnumber squads two-to-one or better. The Incubi, wracks, etc are going to be the ones getting the real killing done more often than not.

Against T3 armies (eldar, IG, tau) wyches are a much scarier force all around - even before their drugs and pain tokens.

[w7west]

I completely agree here - though with the caveat that they should rarely be running off their base statline alone. Combat drugs and power through pain give them the potential to be quite a bit more dangerous than S3 non-power weapon attacks - furious charge, +1 STR, or rerolls to wound suddenly allow the squad to put down non-trivial numbers of armor saves... at least enough to not lose combat to codex: space marine tactical squads. I certainly think the squads are best used as a lockdown for devastators/long fangs/melta bikes against a power armor force, unless they're able to outnumber squads two-to-one or better. The Incubi, wracks, etc are going to be the ones getting the real killing done more often than not.

Against T3 armies (eldar, IG, tau) wyches are a much scarier force all around - even before their drugs and pain tokens.

Yes you nailed it! Hold up the support squads with wyches while your incubi / (harlies lol) / archon do the real work (and quite quickly I might add)

[DrBored]

Time will tell. I intend to run my Wyches like this:

Archon w/Soultrap, Huskblade OR Succubus w/Agoniser
-attached to-
Bloodbrides (9)
-Syren w/Agoniser, x3 Shardnets
-loaded up in-
Raider w/Flickerfield

Other upgrades may be included, but this effectively turns the Wyches into a potent power-weapon delivering device. Oh, hi there Daemon Prince! Guess what? You get 1 attack, and we'll ignore it half the time with our 4+ invuln. What's that Daemon Prince? You charged forward ahead of the rest of your army in the hopes of decimating my ranks? Haha, silly Daemon Prince, you're such a hoot. Oh look, Logan Grimnar and Mephiston have come to play too! They're fun too, I can't wait to powerhouse all over their faces!

A smart player will see this loadout and shoot the crap out of it, and good for them, they just wasted a whole turn taking down a squad that costs under 350 points (if with Succubus, Raider included), and that's another 1650 points of Dark Eldar that will be in their face next turn anyway. But then, if you as the DE player let that happen, you're a silly fool. If you get first turn, those Wyches should be in assault first turn. If you get second go, then they should be out of line of sight or off the board completely.

This little squad is deadly, especially once Feel No Pain kicks in. That's a butt-load of power weapon attacks that ignore your precious t4, t5, t6, t7, t8, t9, and t10 models. Have fun.

[MasterSlowPoke]

I like Anthem Games better.

edit: whoops didn't see a second page here

[Splug]

Killing 350 points of infantry/IC's is actually pretty good for a single turn's shooting phase. Assuming you're playing at 2000, that's about a fifth of your army... and if you don't stop that bleeding fast, you'll be tabled at turn 6. If you're playing against anything other than guard or tau, you probably have assault phase casualties to worry about as well.