Duke deepstrikeing assoult?

[Xas]

Hey all!

I just found some imho very serious side-effect of the Duke's ability to deepstrike vehicles:

I cannot find any rule that prevents you from assoulting! :eek:


Maybe you find/know a rule that is against it (and tbh I'd happily accept that since it appears as a very strong and hidden ability).

My chain of logic:

The duke allows the transports to deepstrike.
Unlike retrofire trusters he does NOT disallow disembarking.
The vehicle counts as moved 12" according to BRB so you are allowed to disembark.

Now you can act normally in the shooting phase (fleet for example).

In the assoult phase there is only one rule regarding deepstriking and that says that the unit which deepstriked may not attack but the raider/venom deepstriked but not your unit (of say wyches) as they dont even have the special rule "deep strike".

so what am I missing?

[Tynskel]

there is a lot of precedent against assaulting after deep striking..

There is a line that states 'In that turn's Assault phase, these units may not launch an assault (even if they have the 'fleet' special rule), unless clearly stated in their special rules- they are too disrupted by their deep strike move.' p.95

The 'these' part is referring mostly to units that have disembarked.

For Ex, the Blood Angels Land Raider deep strike specifically states one may not charge the turn the vehicle deep strikes, even though they have a special rule that allows assaulting after disembarking.

Also, note that this is referring to the unit themselves, not the vehicle that they have come out of.

[Grailkeeper]

The Duke is a moderator- he can do whatever he likes on this site.



Thats who we're talking about right?

[phoenix01]

I love Internet Explorer. The tab for this page said "Duke deepstriking @$$...":p

[Xas]

there is a lot of precedent against assaulting after deep striking..

There is a line that states 'In that turn's Assault phase, these units may not launch an assault (even if they have the 'fleet' special rule), unless clearly stated in their special rules- they are too disrupted by their deep strike move.' p.95

The 'these' part is referring mostly to units that have disembarked.

For Ex, the Blood Angels Land Raider deep strike specifically states one may not charge the turn the vehicle deep strikes, even though they have a special rule that allows assaulting after disembarking.

Also, note that this is referring to the unit themselves, not the vehicle that they have come out of.

thank you tynskel.

the "these" part is of course a strong hint that you cannot assoult (and I too second that notion even though it would limit my DE).


what is really letting me question this age-old core rule now is the simple fact that they took the time to write that you cannot disembark after useing retrojets but did not do the same for the dukes ability (they could just copied the sentence, said he gives free retrojets or said you cannot assoult, just like the BA).

The fact that we have a 100% clear and dedicated sentence in the BA book (a deepstriking landraider would have been the only other vehicle that fulfilled my rules-logic due to allowing assoult after moving and disembarking) is a strong hint that the duke actually ALLOWS assoult after disembarking.

Do we have any reported miss-writings with other rules in the book so this is just another oversight?

This would also explain his points values as he is quite expensive just for his wargear (build an archon with similar equipment and you are cheaper AND have way better stats and so you pay a big premium for just the drug ability and deepstriking).

Any other input on the issue? I'm still unsure what to believe.

[helvexis]

I think after looking at it I'd have to agree with you that if they intended you to not disembark they would of mentioned it as they have with retrofire jets and BA landraiders.

[plasticaddict]

[QUOTE=Xas;105634]
The fact that we have a 100% clear and dedicated sentence in the BA book (a deepstriking landraider would have been the only other vehicle that fulfilled my rules-logic due to allowing assoult after moving and disembarking) is a strong hint that the duke actually ALLOWS assoult after disembarking.
QUOTE]

Not true, normally any open topped vehicle allows you to assault after moving up to 12" and disembarking, i.e. S.M. droppods and land speeder storms. Both are assault vehicles by default, however droppods have specific language that prohibits units from assaulting out of them on the turn the arrive via depstrike.

[Xas]

[QUOTE=Xas;105634]
The fact that we have a 100% clear and dedicated sentence in the BA book (a deepstriking landraider would have been the only other vehicle that fulfilled my rules-logic due to allowing assoult after moving and disembarking) is a strong hint that the duke actually ALLOWS assoult after disembarking.
QUOTE]

Not true, normally any open topped vehicle allows you to assault after moving up to 12" and disembarking, i.e. S.M. droppods and land speeder storms. Both are assault vehicles by default, however droppods have specific language that prohibits units from assaulting out of them on the turn the arrive via depstrike.


What is "Not true" about my statement? Or are you just wanting to say that we already have an example of a vehicle that has been able to do this for years with the landspeeder storm?

Well I just doule checked and found that the landspeeder storm both is open topped AND has the deepstrike spezial rule.


So do we have had this option all the time but everyone just overlooked it?
Again the question is: why would the codex autor directly state that you cannot disembark/assoult with the retrojets/droppod but not with the dukes ability/landspeeder storm?

[bryce963]

Well, this appears correct.
I guess my idea for the Duke, and tons and tons of wyches just got better. A lot better.
Duke, trueborn with 2 splinter cannons, 2 blasters, maybe splurge for carbines, 2 ravagers, and fill the rest with wyches in raiders.

On another thread, it appears that this has actual use precedent in Austin. Good enough for me. I see no need to FAQ this, there is clear mention of no disembark with retrofire thrusters, and this omission seems deliberate.

Finally, what kind of vertical assault would it be with no shooting or assaulting?

[Tynskel]

you are misreading my statement.

The squad itself does not have the special rule. If you read the section for Deep Strike (p95) the rule specifically states that the units cannot move, 'they may shoot (fire/run). Vehicles count as having moved cruising speed.'
Then
'In that turn's Assalt phase, however, these units may not launch an assault (even if they have the 'fleet' special rule), unless clearly stated in their special rules- they are too disrupted by their deep strike move.'

The unit does not have the special rule: Here's an example Heroic Intervention from Vanguard Veterans--- they have a specific special rule that allows them to assault after deep striking.

[DarkLink]

Sounds like this works a lot like Drop Pods. Can SMs assault after coming in via drop pod? (that's a rhetorical question)

[Archon Charybdis]

Sounds like this works a lot like Drop Pods. Can SMs assault after coming in via drop pod? (that's a rhetorical question)

Except the Drop Pod (and indeed most vehicles capable of Deepstriking with passengers embarked, with the exception of the Landspeeder Storm) have specific statements in their rules saying passengers are unable to assault/disembark when entering play embarked on such a deepstriking vehicles. The Duke's rule does not have this prohibition, and one could argue that the Drop Pod and BA Landraider are cases of the exception proving the rule.

[Duke]

I vote that duke can do whatever he wants...

Duke

[BuFFo]

Personally, the rule in the main book is clear. You cannot assault from a DS vehicle unless the unit specifically has a rule allowing it.

The Duke's rule doesn't have an exception to the rule.

As a matter of fact, there is no point for Retrofire Jets to have this prohibition since a prohibition against assaulting already exists.

I don't see the Duke as the rule with the typo. I see Retrofire Jets as the rule with the unneeded typo.

[Bean]

there is a lot of precedent against assaulting after deep striking..

There is a line that states 'In that turn's Assault phase, these units may not launch an assault (even if they have the 'fleet' special rule), unless clearly stated in their special rules- they are too disrupted by their deep strike move.' p.95

The 'these' part is referring mostly to units that have disembarked.

For Ex, the Blood Angels Land Raider deep strike specifically states one may not charge the turn the vehicle deep strikes, even though they have a special rule that allows assaulting after disembarking.

Also, note that this is referring to the unit themselves, not the vehicle that they have come out of.

This isn't true at all. The referent of "these units" in the line you quoted from page 95 is "the units in question" (as per the very first paragraph, where it says, "If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question...)

Or, it might be "vehicles," (this being the noun phrase most directly preceding the pronoun phrase in question), though that conclusion doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given it comes in a sequence of paragraphs which all have "these units" for a subject. The most reasonable conclusion is that they all have the same referent, which excludes "vehicles" as a reasonable option.

The conclusion that it refers "mostly to units which have disembarked" is entirely without basis. The rules in that section don't include "units which have disembarked" or any equivalent as a noun phrase at all.

The rules for Deep Strike on page 95 do not prohibit models which disembark from a transport that enters via deep strike.

Also, models which disembark from a transport have not arrived via deep strike, even if their transport has. They arrive on the table via disembarking--an entirely separate set of rules with its own set of subsequent restrictions.

If an open topped transport deep-strikes, models which disembark from it may assault unless they or the transport have some particular rule which prohibits them from doing so. None of the core rules contain any such prohibition.

[scadugenga]

The rules for Deep Strike on page 95 do not prohibit models which disembark from a transport that enters via deep strike.

Also, models which disembark from a transport have not arrived via deep strike, even if their transport has. They arrive on the table via disembarking--an entirely separate set of rules with its own set of subsequent restrictions.

I cannot think of a single player I know locally that would try to argue this point as being valid. It's a gross beardy interpertation of the RAW.

[Culven]

There have been FAQs and discussions relating to Units which entered play in a Transport which used the Deep Strike rule as counting as entering play via Deep Strike. Beacuse of this, the clauses associated with some vehicles (such as some of the Drop Pod entries and the Blood Angels Land Raider) which prohibit the Embarked Unit from Assaulting that turn are actually redundant reminder text. Le lack of this reminder for some vehicles does not mean that the restriction doesn't apply.

[Tynskel]

This isn't true at all. The referent of "these units" in the line you quoted from page 95 is "the units in question" (as per the very first paragraph, where it says, "If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question...)

Or, it might be "vehicles," (this being the noun phrase most directly preceding the pronoun phrase in question), though that conclusion doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given it comes in a sequence of paragraphs which all have "these units" for a subject. The most reasonable conclusion is that they all have the same referent, which excludes "vehicles" as a reasonable option.

The conclusion that it refers "mostly to units which have disembarked" is entirely without basis. The rules in that section don't include "units which have disembarked" or any equivalent as a noun phrase at all.

The rules for Deep Strike on page 95 do not prohibit models which disembark from a transport that enters via deep strike.

Also, models which disembark from a transport have not arrived via deep strike, even if their transport has. They arrive on the table via disembarking--an entirely separate set of rules with its own set of subsequent restrictions.

If an open topped transport deep-strikes, models which disembark from it may assault unless they or the transport have some particular rule which prohibits them from doing so. None of the core rules contain any such prohibition.

Argumentative to be Argumentative.


I agree with Duke. I second his motion!

[Bean]

If you don't want people to argue with you, Tynskel, stop writing things which are obviously wrong. You can't really expect any other response.

[gcsmith]

Tynskel has posted nothing wrong.
The rulebook clearly states no assaulting. I also had this idea till I read the rulebook.
So sadly no ds assault for u.

[Bean]

Tynskel has posted nothing wrong.
The rulebook clearly states no assaulting. I also had this idea till I read the rulebook.
So sadly no ds assault for u.

Tynskel posted this:

"The 'these' part is referring mostly to units that have disembarked."

which is wrong. The 'these' part doesn't refer to units that have disembarked at all.

Also, where does it actually say in the rules that a unit disembarking from an open-topped transport that entered via deep strike can't assault? Can you provide a quote? I read through the entire section for transports, open-topped transports, and deep strike, and couldn't find any such rule anywhere.

[Fizyx]

If you don't want people to argue with you, Tynskel, stop writing things which are obviously wrong. You can't really expect any other response.

So, on page 95 when the rules specifically reference a unit arriving via deep strike transport, the rules don't apply to the same model two paragraphs down?

Dude, I've seen some skewed logic before, but this is just crazy-talk. Follow your own advice.

[gcsmith]

Under rules for deepstrike, Models may not move other than to disemark.
Then later, these units may not assault unless they have some special rules.
If u were to read in both cases it uses these in same context .

[Image]

I think some of the contention is between the differences with the transport and the unit itself. What I see here are people suggesting that the transport uses deep strike, while the embarked unit does not.

Personally, I believe the precedent is that embarked units share the movement of the transport. No one denies that you cannot assault after deep striking, right? Though the transport is deep striking, the unit is still subject to the movement of the vehicles as can be seen from shooting from a moving vehicle and further movement after disembarking from a vehicle (can move if the vehicle hasn't moved, can't move if the vehicle has moved).

So, as I interpret it, a unit can't assault after their transport deep strikes because they count as sharing that deep strike movement. YMMV.

[Bean]

So, on page 95 when the rules specifically reference a unit arriving via deep strike transport, the rules don't apply to the same model two paragraphs down?

Dude, I've seen some skewed logic before, but this is just crazy-talk. Follow your own advice.

It's no wonder you think the logic is skewed, since you have clearly misunderstood what I said.

I said that the pronoun phrase "these units" in the seventh paragraph under the Deep Strike header on page 95 (the paragraph containing the line Tynskel quoted) refers to units arriving from reserve using the deep-strike rules (al a the the first paragraph), not "models which have disembarked."

Though the fifth paragraph does discuss units which disembark from a deep-striking transport, units which disembark from a deep-striking transport does not become the antecedent for subsequent pronoun phrases. We can tell this from the fact that the line which discusses units disembarking from a deep-striking transport itself uses the pronoun phrase "these units" as a subject, indicating that its subject is also units which arrive from reserve using the deep strike rules.

At no point is "units which have disembarked" the subject of anything, nor is it (or any equivalent) used as a noun phrase, anywhere. The closest the rules come to actually referring to units which have disembarked from a deep-striking transport is to note that if a unit which arrives from reserve using the deep strike rules happens to be embarked on a transport which has also arrived using the deep strike rules, they may disembark--an exception to the rule that units which arrive from reserve using the deep strike rules may not move further in the movement phase.

Again, the referent of "these units" in the seventh paragraph is, in no way, "units which have disembarked." It is, as it is for the same phrase in both the sixth paragraph and the fifth paragraph (the one which briefly mentions disembarking from a deep-striking transport) "units which have arrived from reserve using the deep strike rules."

Tynskel was wrong, my logic is not in error, and you need to read what I write more carefully before leveling criticisms that only make it clear that you don't know what you're talking about.




Under rules for deepstrike, Models may not move other than to disemark.
Then later, these units may not assault unless they have some special rules.
If u were to read in both cases it uses these in same context .

Yes, it does: in both contexts the rules use the phrase "these units" to refer to units which have just arrived from reserve using the deep strike rules.

The only question is whether units which disembark from a transport which arrived from reserve using the deep strike rules are also units which arrived from reserve using the deep strike rules.

My contention is that, since the disembarking unit doesn't actually use the deep strike rules, it can't be said to be a unit which arrived from reserve using the deep strike rules, and therefor the rule on page 95 which says that such units may not launch an assault doesn't apply to them.

What is your contention? Or were you just going for the Captain Obvious award?




I think some of the contention is between the differences with the transport and the unit itself. What I see here are people suggesting that the transport uses deep strike, while the embarked unit does not.

Personally, I believe the precedent is that embarked units share the movement of the transport. No one denies that you cannot assault after deep striking, right? Though the transport is deep striking, the unit is still subject to the movement of the vehicles as can be seen from shooting from a moving vehicle and further movement after disembarking from a vehicle (can move if the vehicle hasn't moved, can't move if the vehicle has moved).

So, as I interpret it, a unit can't assault after their transport deep strikes because they count as sharing that deep strike movement. YMMV.

A somewhat more reasonable position than most (and no, I don't think anyone is arguing that units which deep-strike can assault).


I was going to write this:



I just don't think there's actually any grounds for the assertion that if a unit's transport deep-strikes the unit itself should be treated as if it deep-struck. Remember that when we simplify it by saying that such-and-such is "deep-striking" what we're really saying is that it "is arriving from reserve using the deep strike rules."

If a unit doesn't arrive from reserve using the deep-strike rules, it shouldn't be subject to rules which only apply to units that do arrive from reserve using the deep-strike rules, not units that arrive from reserve using the rules for disembarkation.


but then I realized that you were right.

The operative portion is the arrival from reserve, not necessarily the placement of the models on the table and, though it is odd, the two are not the same for a unit arriving from reserve while embarked. The unit's position is the same as the position of the transport. We know that from the rules on page 66 about measuring to embarked units. If the transport arrives from reserve using the deep strike rules, the unit arrives with it, in the same spot, using the same rules.

So, you're right. I retract my earlier assertion. Good work.

Tynskel, though, is still entirely wrong about the referent of "these units" in that seventh paragraph.

=P

[gcsmith]

right my contention is that the unit coming down in vehicles count as deepstriking as well. and 'these' is specifically used for deep striking units. Such as in the sentence. 'THESE' units which arrive in a deepstriking vehicle may not move other than to dismebark in the movement phase.

Though good to see you came round to the side of no assault after deepstrike in the end.

[Tynskel]

Argumentative to be Argumentative.


I agree with Duke. I second his motion!

I think I need to restate this.