Three questions regarding Power from Pain

[somerandomdude]

While I love this rule, and I'm excited to take advantage of it, I think an entire page could've been dedicated to it and it still would've left some questions. :)

All of these questions make use of the following sentences:

-"It might happen that several of your unites are involved in a combat against one or more enemy units, which are destroyed because of the assault's results. In this case, you receive one pain token per enemy unity destroyed, and then randomly assign them amongst your units in that combat."

My first question is pretty straight forward. My warriors assault a unit of 5 Space Marines. I am able to cause 4 wounds, and the Space Marine player fails his check, which ultimately results in ATSKNF kicking in, and the remaining model dies to "No Retreat!" wounds. Do the warriors recieve a token? I've actually heard it argued that they don't, because it was the Space Marines (or perhaps no one) who caused the death, but the PfP rule states "... which are destroyed because of the assault's results." I imagine a unit which is cut down by a sweeping advance results in a pain token, so this Marine unit should too, correct?

My next question is a bit trickier. An Archon is joined with a unit of Incubi and charges two marine sqauds simultaneously. By the time the Incubi swing (just before the marines get a chance) one entire squad of marines has been defeated, which means a pain token should be awarded, but to who? The Archon and the Incubi are part of the same unit, or at least they were before the attacks (and will be again after the attacks). According to the IC rules regarding assaults, "(w)hen the attacks are resolved... independent characters are always treated as a seperate single-model unit." So, should the pain token be awarded randomly, giving either the Archon or the Incubi FNP, or should it be awarded to both "units"? In this situation, the only one that will make a difference is the first token, as Fearless is checked after the units join together again, and FC is checked before the attacks are made, which leads into...

...the final question, which becomes even more ridiculous. There is a unit of Wracks with a Haemonulus Ancient attached. They collectively have three tokens and assault into a sqaud of marines. Are the tokens split between the two? If so, then only the Wracks OR the Ancient would have FC. It doesn't make sense, since the Ancient did not leave, but if the previous situation treated them as seperate units, then this would have to as well, right?

[Nungunz]

While I love this rule, and I'm excited to take advantage of it, I think an entire page could've been dedicated to it and it still would've left some questions. :)

All of these questions make use of the following sentences:

-"It might happen that several of your unites are involved in a combat against one or more enemy units, which are destroyed because of the assault's results. In this case, you receive one pain token per enemy unity destroyed, and then randomly assign them amongst your units in that combat."

My first question is pretty straight forward. My warriors assault a unit of 5 Space Marines. I am able to cause 4 wounds, and the Space Marine player fails his check, which ultimately results in ATSKNF kicking in, and the remaining model dies to "No Retreat!" wounds. Do the warriors recieve a token? I've actually heard it argued that they don't, because it was the Space Marines (or perhaps no one) who caused the death, but the PfP rule states "... which are destroyed because of the assault's results." I imagine a unit which is cut down by a sweeping advance results in a pain token, so this Marine unit should too, correct?

By RAW, no, you would not get a token in either case. RAI, hell yes. You're probably going to have to house rule it until the FAQ comes out.


My next question is a bit trickier. An Archon is joined with a unit of Incubi and charges two marine sqauds simultaneously. By the time the Incubi swing (just before the marines get a chance) one entire squad of marines has been defeated, which means a pain token should be awarded, but to who? The Archon and the Incubi are part of the same unit, or at least they were before the attacks (and will be again after the attacks). According to the IC rules regarding assaults, "(w)hen the attacks are resolved... independent characters are always treated as a seperate single-model unit." So, should the pain token be awarded randomly, giving either the Archon or the Incubi FNP, or should it be awarded to both "units"? In this situation, the only one that will make a difference is the first token, as Fearless is checked after the units join together again, and FC is checked before the attacks are made, which leads into...

The unit as a whole gets assigned the token so both the archon and the incubi benefit. See the "Sharing the Pain" rule.


...the final question, which becomes even more ridiculous. There is a unit of Wracks with a Haemonulus Ancient attached. They collectively have three tokens and assault into a sqaud of marines. Are the tokens split between the two? If so, then only the Wracks OR the Ancient would have FC. It doesn't make sense, since the Ancient did not leave, but if the previous situation treated them as seperate units, then this would have to as well, right?

Same answer as above

[Serenapth]

Quote:
My next question is a bit trickier. An Archon is joined with a unit of Incubi and charges two marine sqauds simultaneously. By the time the Incubi swing (just before the marines get a chance) one entire squad of marines has been defeated, which means a pain token should be awarded, but to who? The Archon and the Incubi are part of the same unit, or at least they were before the attacks (and will be again after the attacks). According to the IC rules regarding assaults, "(w)hen the attacks are resolved... independent characters are always treated as a seperate single-model unit." So, should the pain token be awarded randomly, giving either the Archon or the Incubi FNP, or should it be awarded to both "units"? In this situation, the only one that will make a difference is the first token, as Fearless is checked after the units join together again, and FC is checked before the attacks are made, which leads into...

The unit as a whole gets assigned the token so both the archon and the incubi benefit. See the "Sharing the Pain" rule.


Agree,
the whole'single' units get a pain token, until they separate and share the tokens equally, or if odd on a 1-0, 2-1 basis however u please. but cannot ( if it were to happen) be a 2-2 basis as you cant have 4 tokens....

[somerandomdude]

Well, actually there's nothing that says you can't have 4. In fact, it suggests that you can, because it says 3 or more.

[DrLove42]

You could have theoretically up to 6 in a squad thats got an IC, so when he leaves they both get 3. When they're a combined squad they both get usage.

As for question 1 as Nungunz says you get a token from no retreat or run down wounds. For reference see the battle report in this months WD. In it Phil Kelly (the guy wrote the book) gets tokens whenever he runs down a squad when they break

[Serenapth]

Actually, i recind my last,
Yes it does suggest you can have more than 3..... but what a unit it would be.
Chronos Engine with a Uber Archon unit closeby and/or Hemonculus attached....how manyTokens could you have.

Should read more before engaging the fingers of doom.

[Nungunz]

As for question 1 as Nungunz says you get a token from no retreat or run down wounds. For reference see the battle report in this months WD. In it Phil Kelly (the guy wrote the book) gets tokens whenever he runs down a squad when they break

Don't trust WD batreps. They very frequently mess up rules, use illegal lists, or make up house-rules on the spot. They are not reliable.

If you played against me I would definitely allow tokens from no retreat or sweeping advance. But if you're in a tournament and someone argues that you don't, do not be surprised if the TO or judge agrees with your opponent.

[Archon Charybdis]

By RAW, no, you would not get a token in either case. RAI, hell yes. You're probably going to have to house rule it until the FAQ comes out.

I definitely agree on the RAI "yes" but how is it not a "yes" even by RAW? In what sense is No Retreat! not a effect of the assault's results?

[BuFFo]

My first question is pretty straight forward. My warriors assault a unit of 5 Space Marines. I am able to cause 4 wounds, and the Space Marine player fails his check, which ultimately results in ATSKNF kicking in, and the remaining model dies to "No Retreat!" wounds. Do the warriors recieve a token? I've actually heard it argued that they don't, because it was the Space Marines (or perhaps no one) who caused the death, but the PfP rule states "... which are destroyed because of the assault's results." I imagine a unit which is cut down by a sweeping advance results in a pain token, so this Marine unit should too, correct?

Yes, the unit gets the Pain Token. The Wyches Destroyed the unit. A unit is destroyed as a result from either failing its initiative roll and getting cut down by teh wyches, or losing the last model to No Retreat, as they are cut down by the Wyches.


My next question is a bit trickier. An Archon is joined with a unit of Incubi and charges two marine sqauds simultaneously. By the time the Incubi swing (just before the marines get a chance) one entire squad of marines has been defeated, which means a pain token should be awarded, but to who?

The Pain Token is giving to the entire unit, so both the Archon and Incubi benefit from the Pain Token immediately.


...the final question, which becomes even more ridiculous. There is a unit of Wracks with a Haemonulus Ancient attached. They collectively have three tokens and assault into a sqaud of marines. Are the tokens split between the two? If so, then only the Wracks OR the Ancient would have FC. It doesn't make sense, since the Ancient did not leave, but if the previous situation treated them as seperate units, then this would have to as well, right?


The Wracks and Ancient form a single unit. This unit has 3 Pain Tokens. Everyone in the unit benefits from 3 Pain Tokens.

An IC and a unit it is joined to count as a single unit for the purposes of Pain Tokens in all instances.

[Necron_Lord]

Regarding the first question, I would believe that the Warriors should get the token for destroying the Space Marines. If they didn't have ATSKNF, the Space Marines would have been destroyed by a sweeping advance, which would have granted the warriors a pain token. In lieu of that, they have to make saves instead, which could lead to its destruction and thus a pain token. "Whenever a Dark Eldar unit with this (Power from Pain) rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it immediately gains a 'pain token'."

Regarding your second two questions, look at the Sharing the Pain section. Whenever an IC joins a unit, the unit becomes one as regards Pain tokens. For example, if an haemonculus with one pain token joined a unit of wracks with one pain token, the unit (haemonculus and wracks) would both have FNP and FC. If they proceeded to destroy another unit, they would have three collectively and become fearless. If the haemonculus then leaves the unit of wracks, either the haemonculus or the wracks would have 2 pain tokens and the other would have one. The pooled pain tokens must be divided as evenly as possible, (i.e. if the unit had 4 pain tokens and the IC left, both the IC and the unit would have 2 pain tokens and you couldn't have 3-1, or 4-0).

[somerandomdude]

I guess my confusion was in reference to the IC rules for assaults, which state that they are treated as seperate units when the attacks start to fly, and I wanted to see if anyone else saw potential confusion there.

I feel better now.

[Mal]

The unit would still have gotten the pain token for killing the marines as the 'no retreat' is still considered part of the combat. Ths C:SM even says its part of this rounds combat so I fail to see how anyone could argue against it being part of the combat.

[Tynskel]

You could have theoretically up to 6 in a squad thats got an IC, so when he leaves they both get 3. When they're a combined squad they both get usage.

As for question 1 as Nungunz says you get a token from no retreat or run down wounds. For reference see the battle report in this months WD. In it Phil Kelly (the guy wrote the book) gets tokens whenever he runs down a squad when they break

You can get more than 6.

And you can split, and someone could be carrying 4--- enough for another IC to join and leave with pain!