The problem of transports

[Renegade]

It doesnt take much roaming about the webs to find someone complaining about the amount of transports in the game, and how 5ed is the mech edition as if thats a really bad thing.

Whats your opinion? Do transports really need tweeking or are they good as is

[Flammenwerfer13]

I see as a none issue. Just learn to counter mech and you'll be fine.

[DAPHEEL]

I'm glad there's more transports about - I've always had a transport for every squad, even when they went unused. Long gone are my 2cnd ed days when the only good use for a rhino was charging it full speed at a carnifex (about the only way you could kill the fethers quickly).

[BuFFo]

As long as the game is played at 1500 points, transport spam isn't really an issue.

[DaveLL]

I do see 5th as a mech edition; I'm sort of neutral on whether that's a good or bad thing.

I could see GW doing a slight tweak in the next edition, but that won't come for a while. Vehicles in general got a boost in 5th, and squads in transports no longer have to worry as much about what happens when their ride gets blown up. I think the testers didn't fully appreciate the value of the two of those combined, especially with the fact that hitting a vehicle in CC is often not easy, but frankly even so lots of transports were too expensive in 4th... so now some transports are slightly (like 5%, maybe 10%) too cheap. Considering that GW tends to round off to the nearest 5 points anyway, it's not an enormous problem.

The main thing is that a decent army now has to have both significant anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower. This can be difficult for some codexes (say, 'nids and daemons), but it's not impossible.

[DarkLink]

Well, it's more that GW gave vehicles a boost, and made transports cheaper. Current transport costs are probably well balanced with the rules from last edition, while the old costs are probably well balanced with the current rules.

Same thing with cover. Last ed., cover wasn't that great. So GW not only made it much easier to get cover saves, but they also boosted cover to a 4+. Now, cover saves are a bit too good.

[Renegade]

Well, it's more that GW gave vehicles a boost, and made transports cheaper. Current transport costs are probably well balanced with the rules from last edition, while the old costs are probably well balanced with the current rules. Care to explain why? I dont see it myself.


Same thing with cover. Last ed., cover wasn't that great. So GW not only made it much easier to get cover saves, but they also boosted cover to a 4+. Now, cover saves are a bit too good. Not sure I would agree, maybe for cover given by another unit, but in general, not. If your claiming a 4+ for hiding behind a fence then something is wrong, as it is, the BRB gives some good guide lines.

[BuFFo]

I feel Rhinos should be 45 points for how hard the vehicle rules are now, and should have been 35 points in 4th when vehicles blew up just by looking at them.

[Renegade]

I feel Rhinos should be 45 points for how hard the vehicle rules are now, and should have been 35 points in 4th when vehicles blew up just by looking at them. Really? The rhino is pretty crap when compared to other transports, it what it carries that makes it dangerous. 45 seems a little steep, 40 still so, but is probably more or less right, but then it should come with something more than a stormbolter and smoke, so maybe 35 is right.

The only tweak I think I would make is to the chimera, and give it back its missing firepoint but make firing from the top hatch make it open topped, either way though, its current points 'feel' right imho.

[DarkLink]

Care to explain why? I dont see it myself.


I'll use the Rhino as an example. Last edition, Rhinos were 50pts, vehicles didn't get cover saves, were blown up easier, and passengers were easier to pin/damage if you damaged the Rhino.

So GW says "ok, transports aren't that good, let's make them better". So they give vehicles cover saves, reduce the severity of the vehicle damage chart, etc.

Now, 50pt Rhinos are pretty balanced.


However, using the last ed rules, Rhinos were overpriced. So GW said "hey, let's drop Rhinos to 35pts, because that's more reasonable with the current rules". So Rhinos are now 35pts.



But 35pts and the new rules at the same time swung transports from being rather "meh" to being a no-brainer. Now that they're so cheap and vehicles are so much better, you get so much use out of transports that not taking Rhinos and Chimeras is almost always a bad idea.

[BuFFo]

Point... meet the head of the nail.....

[DarkLink]

I feel pretty much the same way about cover saves.

Last ed, they were only 5+, and they were a lot tougher to get. As a result, they weren't all that useful. GW could have either just boosted them to a 4+, or made them easier to get, and that would have solved the problem.

So, naturally, GW did both:rolleyes:.


Now, neither are huge balance problems. I just feel the game would be a bit more balanced. Foot armies that aren't footdar/SW missile spam would be much more viable since transports wouldn't be such a crazy good deal, and games would be a bit bloodier due to lesser cover (and I think bloodier games are never a bad thing:D).

[egorene]

I dont think that transports are a problem .
JUST the way how the game is played and what you expect .
Personally i think that transports are balanced or just a bit to expensive .
Or lets take the Land Raider , the "best tank" , it has NO way to get through difficult terrain .

If you play in a group ,you can think about whatever you want to solve your problem .

In tournis its different but who plays tournis :D

[Pingwin]

With comparing to cover please keep in mind that in 4th we had the abstract LOS rules, allowing units to be 'out of sight' a lot easier. In improvements for cover originate there, not in the fact that cover itself was too weak.

[Renegade]

I'll use the Rhino as an example. Last edition, Rhinos were 50pts, vehicles didn't get cover saves, were blown up easier, and passengers were easier to pin/damage if you damaged the Rhino.

So GW says "ok, transports aren't that good, let's make them better". So they give vehicles cover saves, reduce the severity of the vehicle damage chart, etc.

Now, 50pt Rhinos are pretty balanced.


However, using the last ed rules, Rhinos were overpriced. So GW said "hey, let's drop Rhinos to 35pts, because that's more reasonable with the current rules". So Rhinos are now 35pts.



But 35pts and the new rules at the same time swung transports from being rather "meh" to being a no-brainer. Now that they're so cheap and vehicles are so much better, you get so much use out of transports that not taking Rhinos and Chimeras is almost always a bad idea.

As some one that is still paying 50pts for a rhino, let me assure you I would rather take a razorback or LRC, and I am a footslogging marine (BT) player, though that is likely to change with DE fielding mass poison and no doubt spamming raiders with there free anti tank gun. The rhino just isnt worth the points for what it does, at least with the razor I an get some needed heavy weapons.

[Melissia]

Transports are fine as long as you actually prepare for them.

Which is a remarkably easy task.

[Denzark]

No one has mentioned the most obvious - more transports and more troops to satisfy the 5ed balance of power, means more money to GW.

Abaddon = 8(ish) drop pods in points.

8 drop pods = 12+(?) Abaddons in pounds?

[Renegade]

No one has mentioned the most obvious - more transports and more troops to satisfy the 5ed balance of power, means more money to GW.

Abaddon = 8(ish) drop pods in points.

8 drop pods = 12+(?) Abaddons in pounds?

that is reversed for armies like IG, where each transport is about the same as a kitted out infantry platoon, and helps keep the costs on currency low as well as model count.

seriously, look at how much a DE/CE, Orks and IG cost if you go large basic troop formations, then compare that with mech, including finding a way to transport the numbers. The only army the choice doesnt really effect is SM, which either way will fit in a small case at 1500pts, or crons and nids who dont have the issue to begin with.

[Melissia]

It's much less expensive to get a bunch of ork boyz off ebay than it is to get any Ork vehicles.

[SotonShades]

It's much less expensive to get a bunch of ork boyz off ebay than it is to get any Ork vehicles.

true, but I don't think that quite fits in to the argument Renegade and Denzark are debating about the economic initiatives of GW. I'm almost surprised, given the current trend of transport heavy armies, the GW didn't start reselling the squad/transport boxes, such as the SM Tactical Squad with a rhino, all in one box, or the IG Infantry with a Chimera.

Last time they were produced it was to increase the amount of transports in the game by making the complete option (squad and transport) cheaper in price (pounds, dollers, euros... whatever). Unfortunately this was still during 4th Ed, and as discussed all ready transports were often a deathtrap and over expensive points-wise. I'm sure many gamers would love to get their hand on these sets again as they were priced at something like £10 under the cost of getting a rhino kit and a tactical squad box set. GW still makes a small profit on that (not much after overheads, but enough to make it a viable selling stratergy), and we all feel we're getting a better deal and end up buying more. Getting the complete option cheaper in price and points compared to when these sets were last released, not to mention the advantages of trasnports now over previous incarnations, would see them sell like hot cakes.

[Renegade]

It's much less expensive to get a bunch of ork boyz off ebay than it is to get any Ork vehicles.

I can buy a chimera cheaper in store than what they seem to go on ebay for, seriously, I have no idea how ppl can be so dumb sometimes.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Its funny you either hate transports or love them.

Me i have a total of 7 Immolators, 1 Rhino, and 3 Repressors in my SoB army, but that doesnt mean i use them all the time. Except for my Dominion squads that must take one im very happy foot slogging my troops all over the place. I dont consider myself transport spamming either.

True with GW making the average transport cheaper and user friendly now, its worth taking them. For 35 points a Rhino is a transport, mobile cover and a battering ram now. Its worth it.
As for buying transports from ebay, your right ive seen them go for more than i'd pay for in the shops, and i get 20% off my GW 40k stuff.
Now with armies like Orks, well its a must to get your troops very quickly into CC, same now with De. If you dont well your cannon fodder.

As Melissia said, you just have to prepare for them, but then again most transports are still either AV 10 or 11 at best. So shoot them and be done with them. Stop them from racing across your lines.

[Denzark]

No one has mentioned the most obvious - more transports and more troops to satisfy the 5ed balance of power, means more money to GW.

Abaddon = 8(ish) drop pods in points.

8 drop pods = 12+(?) Abaddons in pounds?


that is reversed for armies like IG, where each transport is about the same as a kitted out infantry platoon, and helps keep the costs on currency low as well as model count.

seriously, look at how much a DE/CE, Orks and IG cost if you go large basic troop formations, then compare that with mech, including finding a way to transport the numbers. The only army the choice doesnt really effect is SM, which either way will fit in a small case at 1500pts, or crons and nids who dont have the issue to begin with.

When I said troops I meant TROOPS as a selection. My point which I am probably not clear enough about, is that game mechanics seem to encourage you to buy a horde (lots of troops makes holding objectives easier) or mech (vehicles and all their in-game advantages are well discussed earlier in this thread).

An example of GW economics influencing GW game design, and (IMHO) a sad sign of the times.