Ork boyz should be strength 4

[Muskratt]

Its probably been mentioned a hundred times before ..but i'm a new poster so, ...I'm a greenskin player...but what has always intrigued me is that the basic boy with all those slabs of muscle, a lifetime of war and survival of the strongest being their only rule...have the strength of a puny humie.
Sure, in 40k, they get the furious charge rule and it gives them one turn of being equal to marines ..and then revert to having the strength of a humie with a bad case of the flu.
Notihng much would need to be changed ..changethe boyz to strength 4 standing still..let them have furious charge to reflect the ferocity of their initial charge (much like the Gauls against the Romans..if the Romans weathered the initial charge, the Gauls quickly lost their impetus(sp?) and the romans generally starting getting the upper hand in prolonged combat)...Nobs still stay strength 4 ...their advantage is their increased int stat of 3 ..and warbosses get their strength 5.
Anyway...thats the extent of my rant ...anyone care to rebutt or agree ??

[blackarmchair]

On the charge a slugga boy does 1.00 wounds against MEQs, an average unit (say a space marine) usually gets 2 attacks and does 0.50 wounds. Without the furious charge an ork boy does 0.33 wounds whereas a space marine would do 0.25 wounds.

The Ork boy is already better than the MEQ in close-combat and costs only 6pts. This is fair because the Ork Boyz is clearly worse than a MEQ in terms of shooting, armour, etc. Giving the Ork Boy str 5 on the charge is something I would love as an ork player but something I admit is pretty damn broken.

[Aldramelech]

It'll never happen. Orks would be near damn unbeatable and their bad enough now.

As for the Models with huge muscles, ever watch Worlds Strongest Man on TV?, body builders dont tend to do very well despite looking very impressive, muscle definition has nothing to do with actual strength Im afraid.......

[Mal]

The whole idea of orks isn't just pure strength...

Their only true strength is their strength of numbers... throw enough ork boys at a problem and it'll go away, simple as that.

Ohh and btw I do play orks and I have absolutly no problem with their S3, its never let me down, sure its not as good as S4, but my models are 6 points each rather than 18... see the difference there?

[Melissia]

Yes they should, but for balance reasons they aren't.

[Deadlift]

It'll never happen. Orks would be near damn unbeatable and their bad enough now.

As for the Models with huge muscles, ever watch Worlds Strongest Man on TV?, body builders dont tend to do very well despite looking very impressive, muscle definition has nothing to do with actual strength Im afraid.......

Lol that just makes me laugh.....I know I know this is a warhammer 40k thread but saying bodybuilders arent strong is bull crap lol. Ronnie Colemans 800lb deadlift is a fine example of that. Im not a bodybuilder myself but do take part in strength sports (5 years so far) and I know lots of BB that compete. Mariusz Pudzianowski is another fine example of a strong man who also has a fantastic physique and although "not a body builder" I know many who would love to have his size

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTabqZQ6iTw

that should change your idea of "weak bodybuilders" but your right size does not equal strength anyone who trains with weights on a regular basis will know your always going to be a lot stronger than someone who does not


back on topic yeah looking at an Orks physique they should be a lot stronger in comparison terms to a normal guardsman but as has already been said their bad enough on the charge as is.

[mstingray]

Its probably been mentioned a hundred times before ..but i'm a new poster so, ...I'm a greenskin player...but what has always intrigued me is that the basic boy with all those slabs of muscle, a lifetime of war and survival of the strongest being their only rule...have the strength of a puny humie.
Sure, in 40k, they get the furious charge rule and it gives them one turn of being equal to marines ..and then revert to having the strength of a humie with a bad case of the flu.


In the fluff the imperial guard (especially Cadians) are the best fighters humans have to offer, the strongest and most capable, sure in 40k they're far from a space marine but then space marines are super-human. you've got to think of it like a basic ork being as strong as the strongest humans we got now. So no str4.

[Xas]

orks could be strenght 4. but then only with 1 base attack and no furious charge, beeing basically as strong as the super-human space marines (space marines are those people who can trow cars at you for a laugh).

with 2 base attacks and furous charge it represents them better as they are ferocious and rather punch something very fast but with each blow beeing less effective than it could be and allmost unstoppable with the added momentum of a charge.


so basically while an ork is as tough/strong as a space marine he is burning his energy much faster than the marine (compare a charging ork with 4A s4 vs a charging marine 2A S4) but the marine can sustain his power level far longer due to conservation of endurance.


I think everything that sets you apart from the common marine or strenght = toughness statlines is something that makes the game more itneresting.

[BuFFo]

the basic boy with all those slabs of muscle

If we are looking at the models, Catachans have just as much muscle.


a lifetime of war

Lifetime being a few years I assume? lol.More like a few years of bar fighting until a WAAAGH is called, an d then they die by the droves, only to spore out more fast growing Orks.


have the strength of a puny humie.

Orks don't have a strength of 2. They have a 3, and humans that have a 3 are represented by the strongest, most well trained that humanity has to offer.

Strength 3 is very high for human standards. Once you cross over to 4, you are in super human levels.

In any case, Orks should stay at strength 3 for balance reasons, unless you want to pay 12 points a Boy instead of 6, lol.

[Aldramelech]

Lol that just makes me laugh.....I know I know this is a warhammer 40k thread but saying bodybuilders arent strong is bull crap lol. Ronnie Colemans 800lb deadlift is a fine example of that. Im not a bodybuilder myself but do take part in strength sports (5 years so far) and I know lots of BB that compete. Mariusz Pudzianowski is another fine example of a strong man who also has a fantastic physique and although "not a body builder" I know many who would love to have his size

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTabqZQ6iTw

that should change your idea of "weak bodybuilders" but your right size does not equal strength anyone who trains with weights on a regular basis will know your always going to be a lot stronger than someone who does not


back on topic yeah looking at an Orks physique they should be a lot stronger in comparison terms to a normal guardsman but as has already been said their bad enough on the charge as is.

I dont see any of the great Icelandic strongmen walking around with huge freaky vieny looking muscles and yet every time some big girl of a body builder enters Worlds Strongest Man (Usually from the US) they seem to come plum last. Strength has got nothing to do with what your muscles look like.

[Lerra]

Orks are also made out of fungus. Maybe fungus-muscles are bigger than human muscles with similar strength. It's difficult to make any real claims about alien physiology.

[DarkLink]

Gameplay balance is greater than fluff when it comes to rules. Thus, orks are str 3.



that should change your idea of "weak bodybuilders" but your right size does not equal strength anyone who trains with weights on a regular basis will know your always going to be a lot stronger than someone who does not


The thing with most body builders (there are some that are strong, but compared to powerlifters or olympic weighlifters most can't hope to compete), is that the methods they use, such as isolating individual muscles, hurt their body's ability to move a a whole system. Sure, they might be really good at bicep curls, but you don't ever do those in real life. You do, say, pullups. And they'd be a whole lot stronger if they'd just done pullups in the first place. In reality, you do multi-joint, multi-planar movements, but traditional bodybuilding only really trains single joint, single plane movements.

Most of the stuff that a lot of bodybuilders do is designed to make them look big, as opposed to making them as strong as they can be. Not all bodybuilders do that, so there are some very strong ones out there.

Your body moves as a system, and functions like a system. Trying to break that system down and get the individual parts is not a good way to get strong. You want to get strong, you don't do bicep curls, leg extensions and tricep extensions. You do back squats, deadlifts, presses, cleans, snatches, pullup/muscleups, handstand push ups, etc. It's a matter of functional movements versus non-functional movements.

Of course, I'm also comparing bodybuilders to athletes in more functional sports, like power/Olympic lifting. So, yeah, a bodybuilder is probably stronger than someone who doesn't work out much.


Low body fat also plays a big role. Bodybuilders try and have as low a bodyfat percentage as possible, in order to look as "cut" as possible. Most other athletes don't have that concern. In fact, low bodyfat can be a big negative, especially for endurance athletes (surprisingly enough), because they need a bigger fuel tank for what they're doing. So a bodybuilder might look more ripped, but not actually be as strong or muscular as a powerlifter because of the discrepancy in body fat.

[Aldramelech]

Gameplay balance is greater than fluff when it comes to rules. Thus, orks are str 3.



The thing with most body builders (there are some that are strong, but compared to powerlifters or olympic weighlifters most can't hope to compete), is that the methods they use, such as isolating individual muscles, hurt their body's ability to move a a whole system. Sure, they might be really good at bicep curls, but you don't ever do those in real life. You do, say, pullups. And they'd be a whole lot stronger if they'd just done pullups in the first place. In reality, you do multi-joint, multi-planar movements, but traditional bodybuilding only really trains single joint, single plane movements.

Most of the stuff that a lot of bodybuilders do is designed to make them look big, as opposed to making them as strong as they can be. Not all bodybuilders do that, so there are some very strong ones out there.

Your body moves as a system, and functions like a system. Trying to break that system down and get the individual parts is not a good way to get strong. You want to get strong, you don't do bicep curls, leg extensions and tricep extensions. You do back squats, deadlifts, presses, cleans, snatches, pullup/muscleups, handstand push ups, etc. It's a matter of functional movements versus non-functional movements.

Of course, I'm also comparing bodybuilders to athletes in more functional sports, like power/Olympic lifting. So, yeah, a bodybuilder is probably stronger than someone who doesn't work out much.


Low body fat also plays a big role. Bodybuilders try and have as low a bodyfat percentage as possible, in order to look as "cut" as possible. Most other athletes don't have that concern. In fact, low bodyfat can be a big negative, especially for endurance athletes (surprisingly enough), because they need a bigger fuel tank for what they're doing. So a bodybuilder might look more ripped, but not actually be as strong or muscular as a powerlifter because of the discrepancy in body fat.

As usual Darklink, you've taken what I said and made sense out of it:D

[fuzzbuket]

but according to that SM S5 orks S4 IG S2 and daemons S100?

S4 isnt normal its superhuman, for legends like straken, creed? space marines and tryanid warriors as well as phienox lords. a ork is as strong as a gaunt and there is as many orks as gaunts.

S£ is big and muscly

-just my 2p

-fuzz

[Deadlift]

Gameplay balance is greater than fluff when it comes to rules. Thus, orks are str 3.



The thing with most body builders (there are some that are strong, but compared to powerlifters or olympic weighlifters most can't hope to compete), is that the methods they use, such as isolating individual muscles, hurt their body's ability to move a a whole system. Sure, they might be really good at bicep curls, but you don't ever do those in real life. You do, say, pullups. And they'd be a whole lot stronger if they'd just done pullups in the first place. In reality, you do multi-joint, multi-planar movements, but traditional bodybuilding only really trains single joint, single plane movements.

Most of the stuff that a lot of bodybuilders do is designed to make them look big, as opposed to making them as strong as they can be. Not all bodybuilders do that, so there are some very strong ones out there.

Your body moves as a system, and functions like a system. Trying to break that system down and get the individual parts is not a good way to get strong. You want to get strong, you don't do bicep curls, leg extensions and tricep extensions. You do back squats, deadlifts, presses, cleans, snatches, pullup/muscleups, handstand push ups, etc. It's a matter of functional movements versus non-functional movements.

Of course, I'm also comparing bodybuilders to athletes in more functional sports, like power/Olympic lifting. So, yeah, a bodybuilder is probably stronger than someone who doesn't work out much.


Low body fat also plays a big role. Bodybuilders try and have as low a bodyfat percentage as possible, in order to look as "cut" as possible. Most other athletes don't have that concern. In fact, low bodyfat can be a big negative, especially for endurance athletes (surprisingly enough), because they need a bigger fuel tank for what they're doing. So a bodybuilder might look more ripped, but not actually be as strong or muscular as a powerlifter because of the discrepancy in body fat.


Your talking about compound movements / exercises there then which is the basis of most strength routines, Deadlifts, Squats and Press being the big 3 which I use as the core of my training (i squat 3 times a week and i dont mean on the loo lol)

It just pisses me off when someone who has no idea just how hard a bodybuilder trains to say their weak. I have seen the things they have to do to compete, diet, sleep eat suppliments etc etc the list goes on and the dedication is amazing. Its why I stuck to powerlifting / strength because I genrally eat what the hell I like just lots of it, (3 meals done by 9am)

Oh and being ripped or cut is usually only into the 9-12 weeks before a show, the rest of the year Bodybuilders are usually bulking which means eating lots and lots and lots of clean food as well as bulking suppliments.

I suggest to who ever posted the words size does not mean strength to take a walk into their local gym and watch the biggest guy there and if your ever down in my neck of the woods (devon uk) then I would happy to change your perception strength.

But back on course hell yeah the those jungle catachan dudes all look quite pumped lol.

[Deadlift]

I suppose it boils down to the models not all representing proper scale, for instance a marine should be much bigger and an IG grunt ? and I just know my Monolith is far too small really. I suppose at the end of the day the are just our toys :D

[DarkLink]

It just pisses me off when someone who has no idea just how hard a bodybuilder trains to say their weak. I have seen the things they have to do to compete, diet, sleep eat suppliments etc etc the list goes on and the dedication is amazing. Its why I stuck to powerlifting / strength because I genrally eat what the hell I like just lots of it, (3 meals done by 9am).

Oh, yeah is bodybuilding tough. Sticking to such a strict diet and exercise program to get the results you're looking for requires a lot of discipline. My point is just that power lifting/olympic lifting gets better strength gains than "traditional" bodybuilding. And, unfortunately, when most people tend to think of working out they think of bodybuilding stuff as opposed to more functional movements like power lifting.

I'm also a crossfitter (crossfit.com), so my main interest is in purely functional fitness. So that's just the lens that I see bodybuilding through, that it isn't an optimal program for achieving all-inclusive fitness.

[Aldramelech]

Your talking about compound movements / exercises there then which is the basis of most strength routines, Deadlifts, Squats and Press being the big 3 which I use as the core of my training (i squat 3 times a week and i dont mean on the loo lol)

It just pisses me off when someone who has no idea just how hard a bodybuilder trains to say their weak. I have seen the things they have to do to compete, diet, sleep eat suppliments etc etc the list goes on and the dedication is amazing. Its why I stuck to powerlifting / strength because I genrally eat what the hell I like just lots of it, (3 meals done by 9am)

Oh and being ripped or cut is usually only into the 9-12 weeks before a show, the rest of the year Bodybuilders are usually bulking which means eating lots and lots and lots of clean food as well as bulking suppliments.

I suggest to who ever posted the words size does not mean strength to take a walk into their local gym and watch the biggest guy there and if your ever down in my neck of the woods (devon uk) then I would happy to change your perception strength.

But back on course hell yeah the those jungle catachan dudes all look quite pumped lol.

You forgot take ****loads of steriods, and I live in Devon.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Having my boyz with Str. 3 is no-pro-blemo to me, as i take them in hordes, what i WOULD like to see is the "Waggh!!" rule, granting them +1 initiative in addition to Fleet, being that it lasts for 1 round and you get it once per game. making a normal boy strike at the same time as a space marine, for the first round, then the boys go back to Int. 2.

This way, it increases the Value of getting the charge off, for the ork player. :cool:

[Big mek]

Well, to be honest, i dont see any reason to change boyz at all, take their number of attacks, their WS, and most importankly, their point cost... theres no better basic assault troops in the game imo, and that says alot, thue thay might not be space marines, but who cares?

Personally i dont see why ppl would compare those two units, as they were never intended to be equal, hence the huge point difference, and lets face it, if you cant beat marines in assault, you need to find a shooty army instead ;)

IF i were to change anything in the entire codex, id say, drop +2s for big choppas, and give it rending instead, for lets face it, if youre killing wagons, you want power fist, and if youre killing soft stuff, youd want a power weapon, but seing as orks arent supposed to have them, give them a rending weapon, not a +2s weapon, its next to useless imo, but thats a completely different discussion hehe

[Deadlift]

You forgot take ****loads of steriods, and I live in Devon.

Lol not all take the roids, I have done a couple of stacks but legal gear only. Interested to see your in Devon mate, where abouts ? PM me if you want. I used to play most of my games in Torquay GW but now the manager has gone its not the same. Looking for a club maybe.

[Aldramelech]

Exeter but game in Exmouth.

[gcsmith]

Hey deadlift I go to torquay to :) rich going is bad, but new manager is in someways kinda better :)

[Melissia]

Lol not all take the roids, I have done a couple of stacks but legal gear only. Interested to see your in Devon mate, where abouts ? PM me if you want. I used to play most of my games in Torquay GW but now the manager has gone its not the same. Looking for a club maybe.

Steroids, growth enhancement hormones, ****tons of protein, etc etc etc.

Bodybuilders are quite frequently some of the least healthy people in society.

[Grailkeeper]

Remeber this is a game where a space marine''s slap is stronger than a shotgun blast.

Also all humans are strength 3 unless they've been injured or been given some kind of enhancement- not just best of the military- see necromunda gangers and juves- or conscripts.

[DarkLink]

Right, orks are str 3 because, while they are stronger than humans, most orks are weaker than SMs. Thus, str 3 with furious charge. And then, of course, nobz and the like get better strength.

[Fueldrop]

i'm just guessing here, but i'd say it's something like this:
Conscript/guardian: S3.0
Guardsman/gaunt: s3.3 ish
Aspect warrior/DE warrior: S3.5
ork: s3.7
Space marine: 4.5
Ctan: ***LOTS***

not a definitive guide, just a thought. make of it what you will.

[Mal]

If you really want to know why orks are Str3 then I have the absolute answer here for you.

Orks are Str3 because GW says so.

[Duke]

I think the best answer was given on the first page... Orks, could arguably be given a higher strength, but they aren't due to balance rules... Now if the game was played on d10 instead of d6 we could have a more diversified system of stats.

Duke

[Melissia]

Orks on average are, in the d100 system of Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, roughly ~45-55. Humans are on average ~25-35. Ork Nobz are ~55-65 with Unnatural Strength. Astartes are roughly ~40-50, with Unnatural Strength. Unnatural Strength increases the bonus that one gets from one's strength stat, but doesn't actually increase one's strength stat.

[mstersmith]

Because Orks are crap. Just my 2 cents on that and I play the army. Honestly I would rathe r***** about fearless saves. Why the **** would I want to risk my boyz being slaughtered by a retarded save I am forced to take in cc? C'mon you kill 15 of my 30 boyz and suddenly the other 15, what take a header along the way? I think there is other things to bitvh about man.

[Kahoolin]

Because Orks are crap. Just my 2 cents on that and I play the army. Honestly I would rathe r***** about fearless saves. Why the **** would I want to risk my boyz being slaughtered by a retarded save I am forced to take in cc? C'mon you kill 15 of my 30 boyz and suddenly the other 15, what take a header along the way? I think there is other things to bitvh about man.Lol, what the hell is r*****?

And I agree with Melissia. Should be but aren't because it would be cheaty. S3 + Furious Charge is a better representation.

[Melissia]

Because Orks are crap.I'm not even going to touch this trollbait.

[Aldramelech]

I'm not even going to touch this trollbait.

Oh go on, you know you want to :D

[mstersmith]

I'm not even going to touch this trollbait.

Not trolling just my opinion. Sorry if I dont agree with majority and have been playing Orks for some time. With each new dex that is released there effectivness is slowly detereating. Anyhoo I dont need to justify it to you or any one else and fully understand this guys frustration.

[gcsmith]

So the army went from doing ok to competative in the latest edition and yet, their effectiveness went down?
Sure you don't have to prove yourself, but orks are at the best I have ever seen.

Seems like bad players will just stay bad and blame their book.
Now if you played tau, crons, sob or gk, I would believe you.
But orks seriously?

[DarkLink]

Anyhoo I dont need to justify it to you or any one else and fully understand this guys frustration.

So why bother with this post:p?

[Connjurus]

Orks on average are, in the d100 system of Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, roughly ~45-55. Humans are on average ~25-35. Ork Nobz are ~55-65 with Unnatural Strength. Astartes are roughly ~40-50, with Unnatural Strength. Unnatural Strength increases the bonus that one gets from one's strength stat, but doesn't actually increase one's strength stat.

I forget, do Space Marine's power armor also add Strength? Been a while...I really need to start playing DH again.

[mstersmith]

So the army went from doing ok to competative in the latest edition and yet, their effectiveness went down?
Sure you don't have to prove yourself, but orks are at the best I have ever seen.

Seems like bad players will just stay bad and blame their book.
Now if you played tau, crons, sob or gk, I would believe you.
But orks seriously?

I am not asking for what this guy wants. Str4? Not needed. When you take 15 wounds on a mob of 30 boyz and turn around and pull 10 more do to fearless saves, its a kick in the junk. I believe I let my frustration at my showing on Sat show in my post. Nobz are fine, Ork boyz catch the shaft. I play Orks not Nobz. I understand that if I built a list running nobz with the wound sillyness (which should be fixed) BW, possibly Nob Bikers and a Kff ya its a damn near unstopable.

I also have to take a jab at victory points. You are going to sacrafice some if you play horde which I do. Specificly Kann wall. Is it effective? Sure. As effective as it was say a year ago? Not really. I have over 150 fully painted boyz. Hell my whole army almost 4k worth is painted. I love my Orks. The steep learning curve has taken its tole. A few tweaks though and they are golden. Grabbing a second army because I honestly love the game. Appologies for the attitude.

[fuzzbuket]

orks arent meant to be superhuman hulks (in both meanings :P) just meatshields with fists

[ElCheezus]

On S4: S4 is the magic number where you can glance vehicles without equipment. That, plus all the other "balance" and "points values" arguments.
Ork boys, unlike guard blobs, seem to be aimed at winning assaults in short order instead of over time, so their power is front-loaded, with only the PK keeping them lethal through multiple turns. Having FC and such a low save supports this. If orks can't manage to get the enemy crippled in one assault, they're not meant to win the long fight.

On I +1 on Waaagh: Getting fleet and having so many attacks and spare wounds already gives Orks a huge advantage in assault, even if they go second. Even losing a bunch of models before swinging, they still have tons of attacks, and aren't likely to lose the PK. Having fleet already gives a huge advantage over other assault units: a good player can work the assault range to almost guarantee getting the charge. Against guard blobs, this is bad enough, but at an additional initiative, it would be flat-out no contest.

On fearless being a liability: If you couldn't tell, I play guard. I don't usually blob, and prefer vets. I would love to have fearless. Extra wounds vs being swept and losing everything: easy choice. True, fearless isn't quite as good as stubborn and a decent LD, but it's way better than nothing, especially with such a low Initiative.

[RocketRollRebel]

Yes they should, but for balance reasons they aren't.

nailed it.

[Melissia]

I forget, do Space Marine's power armor also add Strength? Been a while...I really need to start playing DH again.

All power armor adds strength, and the same amount of strength as well (civilian, inquisitor, sororitas, astartes all add +20 strength). Except for a specific variant called Light Power Armor which adds I think +10 at most, which also is roughly equivalent to Carapace armor in protection.

No human military forces use light power armor however.