Games Workshops Excess Units Trend

[Night System]

Just a thought that has been nagging me for quite a while, and so what better place to express it....

My new thought, after reading many a posts on blogs and forums, is people's problems with the new units in codexes that do not yet have models for them.

To name a few in the past few months....

Tyrannofex
Tervigons
Harpy
Voidraven Bomber
Storm Raven
Thunderwolf Cavalry
*most imperial guard artillery*

...

It seems most people's problem, is not that these units exist, but that there is no immediete available for them. But what is wrong with this? What happened to the joys of scratchbuilding and converting?

I do not know is this is just a *british/european* thing. But the players i share my area with love a good bit of conversion, and the more oppurtunities GW gives us, the better! Is there really such a lack of creative talent in the current generation of 40k players that ALL models must have an option?

I have personally seen many a Tervigon conversion that will probably be better than the actual released models (whenever they arrive...)

And my final point, is that this isnt a new phenomena either, remember the 3.5 dex - the arrival of the Defiler was a good year late...

So yeah, what gives?

[BuFFo]

I do not know is this is just a *british/european* thing.

I assume you either 1) Polled every single European and non European to come to this conclusion or 2) your local group of friends somehow constitutes all Europeans?

[Night System]

Well, i played people in 4 cities in britain, and spoken to people from far more, so for britain alone, i can make a overall assumption which doesnt require a mass consensus. And from reading BOLS posts, there seems to be some idea that we play/have differing opinions on the gamesworkshop hobby.

Also i said "i dont know if...." so im hardly making sweeping statements.

[BuFFo]

You do know people that post on BoLs are from around the globe?

I thoroughly enjoy missing models for conversion opportunities personally.

[Lerra]

I would much rather have rules for 8 units with 5 available models than only have rules for 5 units. Conversions and variety are fun.

Plus, it gives GW the option to release models in between codex editions. I like having new things for my army while I'm waiting for the next codex.

[DrBored]

Not everyone can scratch build or convert something to look decent on the tabletop. I've seen some pretty craptastic Tervigons that were just a mash of green stuff and extra bits. The creativity was there and the desire to have a Tervigon was there, but even the owner of some of those Tervigons expressed their desire to have a kit readily available that they could purchase and build.

You see, the kits that GW makes have a certain style and quality to them that is hard to duplicate through conversion (unless you play Orks), and when you do poorly at a conversion, it stands out against the rest of your army, or against an opponents army, and often times it stands out in the worst possible way.

There are also problems with time, and the extra expense of craft tools, green stuff, and the like. For example, to make a decent Tervigon, you'll need to buy a Carnifex to begin with, and then add green stuff onto that. If there was a Tervigon kit, then the cost of the green stuff is nixed out (granted, it's a small expense, but it's still an expense of money and time).

And there's also the potential for even MORE conversions if the kit exists! Imagine all the extra bits, all the things that a conversioneer could do with a Tervigon, or a Hydra Flak Tank, or any of the other things (without spending the exorbitant cost of Forgeworld stuff, and dealing with the higher level of expertise needed to work with resin).

And finally there's a 'love' factor. If GW doesn't make a kit for it, they must not love that unit, or that army. After all, this is a hobby where a lot of love has to be involved. You have to be in love with your own army to build it all, to slave over making a fluff or competitive list (or mix of both) and then love playing it and painting it, and so those that don't end up selling their armies after a couple months really invest a lot of love. These hobbyists just want to extend their love to more models with greater ease, to be able to paint details that they themselves could not recreate with green stuff and plasticard. Yes, GW is a business and so they have probably predicted which kits would sell the best and make the most money to them (from their own arbitrary cards and graphs and whatnot) but look at the Tervigon.. imagine how many would have sold if they had a kit!

Now I'm just rambling..

In my opinion, GW should do better at supporting the entries they make in their codexes. I'd hate to get all the way up to 6th edition and still be missing entries in the Tyranid or Imperial Guard Codex, only for them to get an update, have even more units available to them without models... or even have units CUT OUT because GW was too 'lazy' to make models for them! What a tragedy that would be!

And yeah, the Defiler took a year to appear... but it still appeared.

[scadugenga]

Not everyone can scratch build or convert something to look decent on the tabletop. I've seen some pretty craptastic Tervigons that were just a mash of green stuff and extra bits. The creativity was there and the desire to have a Tervigon was there, but even the owner of some of those Tervigons expressed their desire to have a kit readily available that they could purchase and build.

There's a reason why independent resin artists have good trade going on. Chapterhouse studios has a Tervigon kit, as well as lashwhip/bonesword options, and some rather stunning eldar warlock/farseer jetbike sculpts. They even have combi-bolter kits where you get rare earth magnetized versions of all possible combi-bolter weapons.

Paulson Games does an awesome laswhip and bonesword bit, with Tyrant sized boneswords as well. They also have thunderwolf cavalry kits--and for what you get--they're very reasonably priced.

If you don't have the skills to convert w/green stuff (I certainly don't!) then these are but two good examples of how to get your mojo working and get unreleased models into play.

And as for long waited releases--do you know how EARLY GW made rules for the Vyper? Years before the actual model was released...

[DrBored]

There's a reason why independent resin artists have good trade going on. Chapterhouse studios has a Tervigon kit, as well as lashwhip/bonesword options, and some rather stunning eldar warlock/farseer jetbike sculpts. They even have combi-bolter kits where you get rare earth magnetized versions of all possible combi-bolter weapons.

Paulson Games does an awesome laswhip and bonesword bit, with Tyrant sized boneswords as well. They also have thunderwolf cavalry kits--and for what you get--they're very reasonably priced.

If you don't have the skills to convert w/green stuff (I certainly don't!) then these are but two good examples of how to get your mojo working and get unreleased models into play.

And as for long waited releases--do you know how EARLY GW made rules for the Vyper? Years before the actual model was released...

This is true, but all it would take is for some randy tournament player to point at your model and yell "THAT'S NOT 75% GW PRODUCT!!" and bam, your mojo is shot down as you pack your stuff up, disqualified from a tournament that you were just planning on having fun/practicing at.

[BuFFo]

"THAT'S NOT 75% GW PRODUCT!!"

Which is not a blanket requirement for tournaments in the least.

The Necronomicon, a GW sanctioned tournament in orlando, which was (and maybe still is) a GT some years back before GW dumped its tourney scene, allows non GW models to be used. If you want to enter a Mage Knight Marines army, go ahead.

Yup. There are tournaments with GW prize support/personnel support that do not even require GW models to be used.

[scadugenga]

This is true, but all it would take is for some randy tournament player to point at your model and yell "THAT'S NOT 75% GW PRODUCT!!" and bam, your mojo is shot down as you pack your stuff up, disqualified from a tournament that you were just planning on having fun/practicing at.

Except (I believe) that rule only applies when there's already an existing model within the range.

That, and most things will be at least 75% GW product. Check out their sites and you'll see.

[DrBored]

Well, now I know, so ignore me and my mad ravings :P

Still, it'd be nice to get official, nice, spiffy kits.. Here's hoping.

[DarkLink]

Scratchbuilding is nice and all, but not everyone likes it. Some people just like to play the game. They don't want to have to buy five carnifexes and a pair of trygons and a ton of greenstuff, and then have to glue it all together just to be able to field one of the new units.


I assume you either 1) Polled every single European and non European to come to this conclusion or 2) your local group of friends somehow constitutes all Europeans?

He could just take a statistically significant sample (note that his local store doesn't meet the requirements for a simple random sample, though):rolleyes:

[BuFFo]

You guys make this too difficult, lol.

You buy a Carnifex, and call it a Tervigon. Done.

You can do this for most of the missing models in the GW range.

You really don't have to convert anything.

[eldargal]

I hope GW will always keep one or two things in the codex without an official model, just to allow a bit of variety and imagination into the army.
I'm not exactly the most skilled converter but I can have a go, if I'm not happy I will either hunt down someplace like Chapterhouse Studios or bully one of my brothers into making one.:rolleyes: But as BuFFington says, you can always just 'count as'.

[Entropic]

I think GW should probably be a bit better at picking which units don't have models, though. The Tervigon is the missing model I hear complained about the most, and I think it's because it's both a popular unit choice and it's hard to tell what it should actually look like, how big it should be, etc. I don't hear as many complaints about something like the Swarmlord (beyond the difficulty of getting GW boneswords), and I think it's because everyone knows roughly what it should be like - a hive tyrant with 4 swords.

Beyond my inadequate skill at conversions, one of my fears is also that GW will come out with a model after I've built my conversion, and suddenly people will be whining because I chose the wrong base size or didn't model my tervigon large enough. I already get some of that with the mycetic spore I use - I've had complaints because it's not the exact same size as a marine drop pod. I'm generally wary of conversions because I like to play the game, and playing with conversions of units without an obvious base model seems to be inviting drama.

That said, I do agree with the person from before that said they'd rather have rules for 8 and models for 5 than rules & models for 5.

[BuFFo]

I think GW should probably be a bit better at picking which units don't have models, though. The Tervigon is the missing model I hear complained about the most, and I think it's because it's both a popular unit choice...

You are wrong. GW knows how to pick perfect units which have no models, case in point, the tervigon.

4th edition Tyranids saw an explosion of Canifex sales due to GWs witty rules writing and marketing.

So when a new codex comes out, why would GW try to push a model everyone already owns? The power switch from Carnifexes to Tervigons/Trygons was simply marketing to sell more figures.

Get it?

But GW at least gives you the option to use your old Carnifexes AS Tervigons!

[Denzark]

This is true, but all it would take is for some randy tournament player to point at your model and yell "THAT'S NOT 75% GW PRODUCT!!" and bam, your mojo is shot down as you pack your stuff up, disqualified from a tournament that you were just planning on having fun/practicing at.

GW Throne of Skulls played at Warhammer world, specifies a 'majority' of Forgeworld or GW components. Certainly never seen or heard of a percentage and this is their HQ and main tournament after all.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1461002a_Warhammer_World_Rules_of_Engagement_PDF

[scadugenga]

You are wrong. GW knows how to pick perfect units which have no models, case in point, the tervigon.

4th edition Tyranids saw an explosion of Canifex sales due to GWs witty rules writing and marketing.

So when a new codex comes out, why would GW try to push a model everyone already owns? The power switch from Carnifexes to Tervigons/Trygons was simply marketing to sell more figures.

Get it?

But GW at least gives you the option to use your old Carnifexes AS Tervigons!

Not to mention the huge jump in sales they see with the people who run out and buy multiples to kitbash (I've seen two carnies used to make a single terv/tyrrano, and holy hell, the landraider/valkyrie sales to make storm ravens... Instead of GW selling a mini for $55-60 bucks, people are dropping $120.00 to kitbash it.

It's win-win for GW.

[Bigred]

GW does this to "double dip" in a way.

They plan on eventually releasing models for every model in a codex, the key word being eventually.

GW has a magic number accounting has devised which is the average monthly dispoable income for a hobbyist. The goal is to not overflow the market with so much stiff in a single period of time that an average hobbyist will "miss items".

So instead, they carefully spread the releases out over time and have no problems with you doing stuff like making your own tervigons out of carnifex and other kits, secure inthe knowledge that in a year or two, they will come out with the real kit and a large percentage of foks will junk their conversions and buy the new models anyway ( when is the last time you saw any of the tidal wave of scratchbuild droppods from years past for example).

As the final piece of the puzzle, they are also phasing out the oldest and ugliest kits (starting with the expensive metal ones) and get a "double dip" bonus out of that as a percentage of gamers just have to have the latest and gladly chuck out the older models to stay current. (This seems to be much more common player behavior in 40k than Fantasy from what I've gathered)

They know what you have to spend and they plan accordingly.

[MajorSoB]

You do know people that post on BoLs are from around the globe?

I thoroughly enjoy missing models for conversion opportunities personally.

Well I don't enjoy it, especially if you are playing a game when you have no idea the size of the model and base, as well as the scale of it, weapon mounts etc. In 5th edition so much of this game now revolves around line of sight and base size and GW doesn't even take the time to produce models for its often underly tested codexes. For a model company that derives its profits from selling models, it really isnt a crazy request to expect GW to produce models. GW doesnt expect us to write our own codexes or main rule books so why would they expect us to create models for its games, especially when they are so strict about who manufactures any given models played at their tournaments.

The bottom line is that GW should produce the models for the codexes they have in production.

[BuFFo]

Well I don't enjoy it, especially if you are playing a game when you have no idea the size of the model and base, as well as the scale of it, weapon mounts etc.

Then make it as you see fit. 40k is not a tournament based game. The rules have been left wide open in all editions of the game for almost 30 years for a reason. GW games are relaxing hobbies, not wall to wall rules filled games. If you don't know the size of something, make an educated guess as to what you think it is, then either buy an appropriate model, or convert one.


In 5th edition so much of this game now revolves around line of sight and base size and GW doesn't even take the time to produce models for its often underly tested codexes.

Line of sight has been important in 4 out of the 5 editions of 40k. 4rth edition was the ONLY edition to use strictly abstract terrain. In reality, 5th edition is more like how 40k is than 4th ever was, by returning to the 3rd, 2nd and 1st edition LOS rules.

Base size has always been important. I don't know why you think it is only important in 5th edition.


For a model company that derives its profits from selling models, it really isnt a crazy request to expect GW to produce models.

They DO produce models. I don't think you are getting how GW does business... Let me explain how they roughly work...

The have a new codex coming out in 2 years, so they allot a budget of, lets say, 2-5 million dollars/pounds to the new Tau codex. They need to plan ahead before purchasing the molds that cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single sprue.

So in the end, you have a choice... Which would you rather GW do?

1) Release rules for only the models they can make? So you end up having 10 units in your book.

2) Release the rules for models they made and models they may make in the future? So you end up with 23 units in your book?

The choice is rather simple... You want the second one! You get the same amount of released models, but for people who proxy/count as/convert there are more options available for the customer/hobbyist to play with.


GW doesnt expect us to write our own codexes or main rule books so why would they expect us to create models for its games,

Actually, Gw DOES expect you to write your own rules for the game. You do know that in the GW hobby, ALL the rules you read are actually just guidelines and suggestions, right?

Go read page 2 of your main rule book. There is only one rule that matters in the game, and it is clear as day what GW thinks it is. If you want to play a game where your Elites are troops, GW doesn't care. If a tournament organizer wants to ban Wraithlords, and count Leman Russes as HQS, GW doesn't care.

40k is not a strict game by any means. It is a relaxing hobby where you are supposed to paint your models how you want, convert your models how you want, and play the game how you want.



especially when they are so strict about who manufactures any given models played at their tournaments.

Wrong. GW does not put out the rules for 99% of the tournaments you see, not even their own Grand Tournaments. It is up to the Tournament Organizer to do this.

Go to the Necronomicon, a GW GT here in Florida. A tournament sanctioned by GW, has GW personnel working alongside the TO, and has thousands of dollars in door prizes and prize support, and guess what? GW models are NOT required to play in the 40k or Fantasy tournaments. You can show up with your Mage Knight army, or Hero Clix army, and as long as everything is modeled in a way as to not confuse your opponent, GW doesn't give two sh!ts what you bring.


The bottom line is that GW should produce the models for the codexes they have in production.

Bottom line is that you think this hobby of ours is something it is not. You sound like you'd enjoy Privateer Press games, where everything is ridged, the models are not customizable, and there are rules for everything under the sun.

[Duke]

Sometimes we forget that GW is a business who is in business for themselves and their shareholders. I believe that if it was profitable to do as the OP suggest, then they would do it. However, as a hobbyist with limited time I can say I enjoy conversions, but barely have time to assemble the a actual model, let alone convert and be creative, lol. Sometimes, as a gamer, I wish they had 100% of the models at release, but oh well.

Duke

[BuFFo]

GW has limited time and limited funds to make the models for, what, 30 different armies?

I, for one, am glad GW gives us more models than they can make in a timely manner. If you can convert, great! If you cannot, then buy another suitable GW model and use that!

[MarneusCalgar]

Sometimes we forget that GW is a business who is in business for themselves and their shareholders. I believe that if it was profitable to do as the OP suggest, then they would do it. However, as a hobbyist with limited time I can say I enjoy conversions, but barely have time to assemble the a actual model, let alone convert and be creative, lol. Sometimes, as a gamer, I wish they had 100% of the models at release, but oh well.

Duke

I agree with the Blood Angel: I am starving to have "official" Thunderwolves on my gaming table, but... I must wait and make proxies until then

[Melissia]

I don't think IG artillery is excessive. I mean it's still fairly expensive, has AV10 side armor and not a very good front armor, no resistance to being shaken unless you take multiples (which can't fire at separate targets), etc.

[Renegade]

Horror of horrors, I find myself in agreement with Buffo.

[DarkLink]

Horror of horrors, I find myself in agreement with Buffo.

Except about the part where loopholes in rules prevents the game from being relaxing. Having to argue with an opponent over some stupid issue because there's a gap in the rules is a lot more annoying than having well worded rules that cover that ever will be.

And Privateer Press does such a good job covering gaps in their rules, that there really isn't an excuse for having such loopholes other than "we're too lazy/didn't allocate enough manpower to fill in the gaps".

[BuFFo]

Except about the part where loopholes in rules prevents the game from being relaxing. Having to argue with an opponent over some stupid issue because there's a gap in the rules is a lot more annoying than having well worded rules that cover that ever will be.

Honestly, that isn't a problem with the rules, that is a problem between the interaction of two people.

Wherever I have lived, in New York, around the globe in the Army, and now in Florida, I have always surrounded myself with COOL people. Whenever there is a rules debate, it never lasts more than 20 seconds, because we just smile, roll a dice, and keep on playing.

If you find yourself bumping heads with your opponents all the time, the problem isn't the rules, it is you and your opponent being naturally stubborn.


And Privateer Press does such a good job covering gaps in their rules, that there really isn't an excuse for having such loopholes other than "we're too lazy/didn't allocate enough manpower to fill in the gaps".

You are also a person that doesn't get teh GW hobby. GW does not produce a tournament quality game. GW doesn't even produce a GAME. GW is only exists to create models, and that is it. Despite what you may think GW SHOULD be doing, what they are doing is vastly different than PP. PP creates a game with tight rules for tournament play, but this also excludes any unit options, any conversion creativity, any thing outside the rules.

Funny thing is, that MORE arguments happen when I play Hordes than I ever do with 40k. The quality of the people playing the game drops, as all my Hordes opponents want to do is win the game, so there is an argument over every quarter of an inch whenever someone moves somewhere, or measures for anything really. The second a Caster uses their ability, people always moan and cry cheese. It seriously drove me OUT of the game.

As a hobbyist, I know the difference between the two games, so I don't moan about PP being too strict. I know it is strict, it attracts the kind of gamers I don't like to play with, and it just isn't my style of playing, so I let PP be.

[Rapture]

GW doesn't even produce a GAME. GW is only exists to create models, and that is it.

I am sorry but this attitude is getting kind of silly. It is fairly obvious that GW produces a game. I just played it on Friday.

They make rules, they sell rules. It is not unreasonable for someone to be mildly dissatisfied with a product that they paid for so chill out and them express that fact that they don't think it is good enough. Nothing bad can come from the fact that GW sees some people who want their rules to be a little bit tighter, after all, anything they say is just a "suggestion" right?

[BuFFo]

I am sorry but this attitude is getting kind of silly. It is fairly obvious that GW produces a game. I just played it on Friday.

They make rules, they sell rules. It is not unreasonable for someone to be mildly dissatisfied with a product that they paid for so chill out and them express that fact that they don't think it is good enough. Nothing bad can come from the fact that GW sees some people who want their rules to be a little bit tighter, after all, anything they say is just a "suggestion" right?

You aren't getting it.

GW has been producing models for around 30 years. The game is just a vehicle to sell their models. Maybe you may not be able ot see the difference between GW and PP, but GW is not a game making company.

GW is just in the business of creating a hobby experience. They create detailed models, a vast array of paints, scenic flocking bases, trees, hills, castles, thick books based on modeling and converting. In their WD, what do you see besides advertisement? Games with mostly made up home rules, painting and converting guides. You don't see rules in there anymore. Rules are clearly the LAST thing GW focuses on, because they only care to sell you a hobby, and the rules are up to you and your opponent to mold, change and create to make the hobby fun.

BoLs used to put out side codices with house rules because you CAN in this hobby. You don't see this amount of rules alterations in other games because those games are SRZ BIZNEZ.

GW, when it is all said and done, couldn't care less about the rules/game. The rules are there just to sell new models and help rotate old models around in people's collections.

I just have to point to page two of your rules book. What more do you need to know about GW?

[Rapture]

You aren't getting it.


Trust me. I am.



Maybe you may not be able ot see the difference between GW and PP

I am fully capable of recognising that two different companies are in fact different companies.



GW is not a game making company.

Fine. Then what name does it say on the inside of your 40k rulebook?



The game is just a vehicle to sell their models. Maybe you may not be able ot see the difference between GW and PP, but GW is not a game making company.


Sure it is, but you make the mistake of assuming that one is more important than the other (which might be your opinion). The rules are part of the game and the models are part of the game. Having poorly written rules is the same as having poorly sculpted models.

I know you are just waiting to throw out in all caps how anyone can make up their own rules or roll a die to complete the game, but then it could also be argued that anyone could alter and improve the GW models if they looked like crap.

Once again. There isn't anything wrong with gamers attempting to hold GW to a higher standard when it comes to rules. It is a good thing.

[DarkLink]

Sure it is, but you make the mistake of assuming that one is more important than the other (which might be your opinion). The rules are part of the game and the models are part of the game. Having poorly written rules is the same as having poorly sculpted models.


Buffo's right on this. Poorly written rules don't hurt GW's sales. GW doesn't care about their rules, except as a means to sell their models. GW is so dominate that people will buy any new rules GW comes out with just to play, with little regard to quality.


Honestly, that isn't a problem with the rules, that is a problem between the interaction of two people.

I do agree (and my gaming group doesn't really have any problems with this), but I will still say that the problem can be mostly be solved by a more coherent rulebook. Only the most moronic of opponents would argue with a clear and well-written rule.

You can think of well written rules as an extra layer of insurance against jerks.

[BuFFo]

Oh, Darklink, I do agree with you in that the rules could be written a bit 'tighter'. Absolutely.

I think that GW is still stuck in the mindset of the 80's early 90's where rules didn't really matter, and players didn't care about official rules. GW hasn't realized that they can make a fun game with tight-loose rules that caters to the power gamers of the current generation.

People don't want to have fun anymore. They want their fun regulated by rules left and right, and GW could do a little more to accommodate this.

Personally, I think GW's rules for 5th edition are pretty tight. There aren't many issues that I find 'break' the game at all.

[Melissia]

Oh look, buffo's still trolling agian. Good to see him back to his old self.

[DarkLink]

Personally, I think GW's rules for 5th edition are pretty tight. There aren't many issues that I find 'break' the game at all.

Yeah, they're not bad unless you get really nit-picky. Which some people do, but who cares about them anyways:rolleyes:.




I'll point to Warmachine for a combination of tight yet fun rules. Warmachine itself is a very, very different game from 40k, but some of the specifics can be compared.

For example, Warmachine has a set of special attacks that 'Jacks can make called power attacks, in place of their normal attacks. They pretty much consist of various means of picking up enemy (or even friendly) models, and throwing them around. It's entirely possible to kill enemy units by picking up a model and throwing it at them. I don't know about you, but I think that's way more awesome than, say, Blood Talons.

And Warmachine manages to have a bunch of awesome rules like this, but without any big loopholes or gaps. And if there are any gaps, PP does a much, much better job than GW at releasing erratas in order to cover up those mistakes.

[BuFFo]

Oh look, buffo's still trolling agian. Good to see him back to his old self.

I know you are busy upping your post counts on other forums, but on the rare occasion you do decide to come here, could you at least post something constructive? I know that is hard for you, but I am sure you can give it a try.

[Melissia]

Thankfully I care neither about my post count nor about your opinion of me, so ignoring your complaints is easy.


Actually it's kinda been slow at the BoLS Lounge, and... hell, every forum really. Everyone's kinda waiting to judge Dark Eldar and see if it's any good, and then everyone's waiting for what's coming out next after DE.

Though I think there are like four threads complaining about DE over/underpowered on Dakka, I rather expect it out of some people.

[BuFFo]

Thankfully I care neither about my post count nor about your opinion of me, so ignoring your complaints is easy..

Try harder.

[Rapture]

Buffo's right on this. Poorly written rules don't hurt GW's sales.


The reason that poorly written rules don't hurt GW sales in a way that you can see is that they, for the most part, aren't pooly written.


Buffo's right on this. Poorly written rules don't hurt GW's sales. GW doesn't care about their rules, except as a means to sell their models.


GW most certainly does care about their rules. Don't they spend time and money developing them? Do companies invest time and money into things that they don't care about?

Of course the rules are linked to model sales, but GW is much more than a model company. They sell rules,


GW is so dominate that people will buy any new rules GW comes out with just to play, with little regard to quality.


You are wrong. I shouldn't have to point out to you that all consumers have breaking points. If the quality of any product falls below their standards they won't buy it anymore.

Just think about how many iPods would sell if the next model didn't come with a pause button.



People don't want to have fun anymore. They want their fun regulated by rules left and right

Basketball has rules. Plenty of people have fun playing that.

[DarkLink]

The reason that poorly written rules don't hurt GW sales in a way that you can see is that they, for the most part, aren't pooly written.

Define poorly written.

Compared to Privateer press, then yes, they are poorly written. There are loopholes, ambiguities and gaps all over the place. Most aren't very big, and you don't notice them unless you get a little nit-picky, but they are there.

And GW does an undeniably horrible job with their erratas and faqs. It can take 6 months for them to answer a half dozen questions that no one is asking, while ignoring a dozen that people are. Heck, look at PP again. They have their rules people go on their forum, find question, and provide offical answers to those questions pretty quickly. And they're consistent. You won't get five different answers to your question the three times you email them.

Are GW's rules playable? Yeah. Are they fun? Yeah.

Are they proofread? Questionable.



GW most certainly does care about their rules. Don't they spend time and money developing them? Do companies invest time and money into things that they don't care about?

Of course the rules are linked to model sales, but GW is much more than a model company. They sell rules,

Oh, sure, they make a bit of money off of each codex. But have you ever, ever seen someone say "I don't like the new codex, I'll just use the old one." More importantly, have you ever seen someone actually do that, and do you think that most opponents would allow it?


The rules act primarily as a platform to sell their models. It's a marketing tool. They invest some money in writing rules, and they make a whole bunch of money as people buy models to take advantage of their rules. The rules themselves aren't that important, so long as they're actually there.



You are wrong.

Your stunning argument has shown me the error of my ways:rolleyes::p.



I shouldn't have to point out to you that all consumers have breaking points. If the quality of any product falls below their standards they won't buy it anymore.

Well, GW rules certainly aren't that bad. It doesn't take all that much effort to produce a semi-coherent rulebook in order to get a bunch of people to buy a whole bunch of models.



Just think about how many iPods would sell if the next model didn't come with a pause button.


I don't know. Apple fans are kinda a little crazy. They could stamp their logo on a "featherweight, auto-timer aluminum cased toaster", and people would line up for miles waiting for it.

[Whoop!]

you nailed it there!

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I like official models for all entries in a codex. I do think they should release models for everything eventually, I don't have the time to convert everything. But if they don't and I wanna use something, I'll find something to proxy. I'd rather have the nicely sculpted model though. Seriously, the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes are awesome, they take about 25 mins to put together 3 of them - imagine if I'd had to convert them! Nope, as much as I enjoy seeing people's lovingly constructed conversions and that - rarely as good as a proper GW miniature. Note, I said rarely. There are plenty of dog poo GW miniatures still in circulation...So I don't expect them to be available as soon as the codex is ready (although that'd be nice, wouldn't it?), but I would prefer them to all be produced. I would LOVE a decent Drazar model for the Dark Eldar, for example.

Rules...I DO think there are too many people who are really anal about them and treat them as if they were gospel. If there is reasonable doubt about something, if it's unclear then note it down, dice off for it and discuss it after the game and set a house rule for it. Simple. I don't really care if GW buggers the rules up or makes them unclear (although they've been doing it for so long now you'd think they COULD make them watertight), just play the game! No-one likes losing, but what should count IMO is playing the game, getting wrapped up in the world and stories of 40K and letting a game flow well. There will always be rules facists I guess, but I'd rather play fluffy than be anal.

GW should pay more attention to the quality of their products and ranges - if they are a profit seeking company then they should act like one instead of pretending they are a big gaming club in themselves. I think, however, on the whole they are amazing - produce incredible content and fantastic miniatures, some of which are works of art.

[dwez]

I think the problem lies in the wonderful contradiction of a game that is presented as 'open' for you to amend rules amongst your friends and to have fun and the rather more economically motivated rule of WYSIWYG with the figures. If you go by the first part you could use anything to be your army, shells, pine cones whatever, the second part seems to expressly forbid this. Of course you could use the first part to over-ride the second part but GW as a 'manufacturing company' would be a bit miffed.

From looking at BoLS there's also the massive amount of debate on proxies and 'counts as' not to mention when you do go to the effort of making one of these unaccounted for figures you're bound to get some scamp saying it isn't anything like what they think it should be. So there's very real justification for them to make the models.

Financially though you can understand why they don't, but if they think the lack of a Tervigon woudld translate to Carnifex, well it probably did... on ebay. All those people offloading them because they're not as good as they used to be and the Trygon just does more and looks cooler. That's where to get them not at the GW.

[Brotherjames]

And here I thought we were talking about converting :) I like that they don't release all minis at the time the codex hits leaves something to the imagination. If your ever indoubt about kitbashing, converting, etc take a look at Fil Dunn's Tau battle suit on cool mini or not it's pretty awesome or any of the other fine and not so fine minis beauty is in the eye of the beholder too.

[Chuck777]

As long as GW puts pictures of the model-less units in the Codices, then I will be happy.

We don't want a repeat of the Stormraven release.

[Chris Copeland]

As for me, I always want GW to leave one or two models un-made. I love converting and scratch building models and I think that GW has folks like me in mind when they release a codex with "open" models. The first models I ever hand built were Drop Pods back in IVth edition and I've been having a ball since building Mysetic Spores and Tervigons...

The whole sub-text running through this thread about GW not making games seems rather silly to me. Of course they make games: I'm at my LGS every weekend playing them. Cheers! Chris

[Brotherjames]

A guy at my local spot took fake pineapples and made them into mycetic spores and in the end they turned out great

[dwez]

I love the Mega-bloks plasma hatcher as a Mycetic Spore they're cheap, the right size and look as near as damn it to what you'd expect. But there seems to be a lot of snobbery that some folk seem to aim at them and those who use them.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Soup tins get used as drop pods in my house - now way am I wasting money on those things when a tin or can of Cola will do the job just as well! And before you ask, Mulligatawny...

[Mellowshade]

I guess whether you convert up a model depends on you really. If you have the skills and the money and materials then converting isn't a problem, in fact you probably enjoy it. If you are lacking in one or all departments then you may not want a model that you are embaressed with in your force. Of course if its a game winner does it matter?

THe other option is to counts as or proxy which requires a bit of reason, common sense and agreeable opponents, but that's a whole other arguement :D.

[Brettila]

As a quick aside, Chapterhouse makes an excellent conversion kit for a Tervigon. A friend bought one, and it fit so well it hardly needed glue. I would not be surprised to see other kits come along from other sources. Might be worth looking into now and again.