Sympathy for Lorgar (possible "First Heretic" spoilers)

[Vaddok Sek]

Just finished reading "The First Heretic", and I have to say that again BL has done it again, they had one of thier writers take a part of the story where you know the outcome and manage to transform it into a roller coaster of a novel. I regretted every time I had to put it down in order to do real world stuff.

But that said,to me this novel paints a very sympathetic portrate of Lorgar. I really found myself feeling sorry for the guy as he seems bound by the need to believe in the divine, unfortunately this means anything and leaves him open to manipulation. Of all the primarchs he seems to be presented as being the least physically strong and rarely takes to the field, relying on his charisma and words rather than strenght of arms. He seems to be generally disliked by all of his brothers for his personality with everyone from Guilliman disdaining him, Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim avoiding him, to Magnus discussing things such as philosophy with him while keeping him at arms distance. Seriously even Konrad Curze, the emo middle child of the family, tells him he sucks at one point. As I said earlier his need for faith leaves him open to manipulation, which members of his inner circle, already corrupted by chaos, waste no time exploiting. The way he structured his legion and the way it fought actually put me in mind of the Black Templars, and since one could look at him as the founder of the Lectitio Divinatus you could say that in an ironic twist of fate the Imperium would turn out to match his vision.

In the end he reminds me of the guy or girl you knew in highschool,(and I don't mean to offend anyone by this), who was the total Jesus freak. You know the sort, always walking around with a bible tucked under his arm and took up the accoustic guitar just so he could play praise music. He could be a super nice guy and you could have been great friends with him if he didn't always talk like he was confessing something and didn't feel like everyone on the planet should think like he does. The way his inner circle and most trusted advisors plot behind his back and manipulate him he seems like the "Karen" of the group that Dane Cook jokes about.

Thoughts anyone? Is Lorgar a tragic figure, or just a ****? Are any of these observations good or have I wasted time typing this post after doing a few shots of vodka?

[cobra6]

I think the "Jesus-freak" high school kid analogy is spot on. And I think he would be tragic, except he turns into the ultimate "trench coat mafia" (to take the high school analogy a bit further) and tries to completely destroy everybody else. I feel more sorry for Horus than I do for Lorgar.

[razcalking]

I tended to agree with the other Primarchs as I was reading - he's a whiny, self-indulgent, "what about meeeeee?!" super-soldier who doesn't want to be a soldier. His weak will led him to easily be seduced by Chaos.

I very much liked the book, and I found his character enjoyable, but I was never rooting for him or even really feeling sorry for him. I was feeling sorry for his Legion for having such a weak man as their leader.

[Jearden]

I agree with razcalking, I felt sorry for his Legion. He led them down that path, and allowed himself to be manipulated. Yes, allowed it, because there is no way that Erebus or Kor Phaeron are smart enough to manipulate a Primarch, not unless that Primarch is so lost he allows it to happen. Sure Horus is suckered by Erebus, but eventually Horus is the one running the show, at the end of Nemisis Horus proves that.

Lorgar is so busy feeling sorry for himself, he lets things unravel. He was never truely a leader, not like Horus or Fulgrim. He says it at one point, he isnt a warrior, he is a philosopher. In his sorrow and self doubt, he let himself be taken advantage of, and he wasnt strong enough to stop it, even after he knew what was going on, and who was pulling his strings.

I did really enjoy this book. It is one of my top favorites in the series now. Flight of the Eisenstein, Legion, A Thousand Sons and now The First Heritic. Not neccessarily in the order, cuz Tales of Heresy has so much goodness in it lol.

[Grailkeeper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT1KRZOK4VE&feature=related

*may have skipped most of this thread to avoid spoilers

[wittdooley]

I agree with razcalking, I felt sorry for his Legion. He led them down that path, and allowed himself to be manipulated. Yes, allowed it, because there is no way that Erebus or Kor Phaeron are smart enough to manipulate a Primarch, not unless that Primarch is so lost he allows it to happen. Sure Horus is suckered by Erebus, but eventually Horus is the one running the show, at the end of Nemisis Horus proves that.


This.

I just love the fact that Kurze basically calls him a *****. Hilarious.

Also, one of the best parts of any HH book when he's discussing the weaknesses of all the primarchs with Argel Tal. Really reminded me of the part in Gladiator where Joaquin Phoenix's character is talking to his dad about qualities that he doesn't possess.

[HappyHaunt]

Lorgar isn't, to my mind, a tragic figure. More, akin to Horus and Fulgrim, convinced of their righteousness to the degree that they don't realise where that conviction is leading them, though obviously Fuilgrim, at the last, did.

Lorgar is a bit like the Jesus kid I guess. I'd place a bet right now that Horus still isn't totally lost to Chaos even at the point at the end of Nemesis, I think the plot is going to lead to him becoming conflicted as the final invasion of Earth happens, but that he's too comitted, too surrounded by those with now devoted to Chaos, to change. I'd further guess that this factors into the mystery of why the Battle Barge shields are lowered, against all reason, - early fluff wrote this them needing to be lowered to enable Horus to see the final battle take place - .

I guess I'm not the only one that has noticed that the visions shown to both Lorgar and Horus by the warp daemons, and those shown to the Alpha Legion primarchs, of the future of the universe are actually what happens as a result of the Heresy rather than, as the daemons state, what happens from doing nothing.

In that context, when you consider that Lorgar is initially perpetrating the belief of the Emperor as a God, then that further explains why the Word Bearers should be the source of the heresy - they are essentially the greatest threat to Chaos in an alternate future. In Flight of the Eisenhorn and Nemesis we can already see that what the Lectio Divinatus creates, essentially a secret cult army at the heart of the Crusade but then with a wider spread all the way to Terra and the institutions of the Imperium, is going to play a major part in the Heresy.

For me, Nemesis is the best book, purely because of the moment where the assassin finds the woman with the emblem, and then reveals her own identical one. So much falls into place at that moment.

[Tynskel]

"I really found myself feeling sorry for the guy as he seems bound by the need to believe in the divine, unfortunately this means anything and leaves him open to manipulation."

Hah! Sounds obvious to me! Except, I don't feel sorry for him. Faith leaves you open to manipulation. Hence, why Space Marines do not believe in the Emperor. They know.