Dark Eldar; Cluster Caltrops vs Grav Talon

[DrBored]

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but for the Reavers, the Cluster Caltrops is d6 str 6 autohits on the flyby, and the Grav Talon is d3 str 4 autohits with potential for pinning on the flyby...

I understand that, should you pin something you will be very happy and do a little happy dance...

But Space Marines (and let's face it, most of the time we will be facing space marines) are typically very resilient against pinning, and your chances of getting it are very low.

It seems to me that for a few points more, I'd rather kill more with more hits at a higher strength and force a leadership test through dead models instead of trying to pin.

What do you guys think? Higher numbers of higher strength hits for more points, or a lower-cost upgrade for fewer attacks at lower strength with the chance to cause pinning?

[eldargal]

Well, Grav Talon lets you pull out an IC too, that can be useful. I do agree that against Marines the S6 hits are probabl more use, but against most other armies pinning would be useful.

[BuFFo]

Dark Eldar used to be the only army that could actually count on Pinning as a viable Strategy against most armies, but for some reason Phil Kelly decided that Pinning was too powerful, or maybe it wasn't worthless enough?

Pinning is now officially dead in the game.

Forget about trying to pin anything with DE anymore. Just kill everything in sight.

[Meow Mix]

It's worth noting that the Grav Talons, unlike Cluster Caltrops, are used in addition to Bladevanes. So on top of their strength difference, it should also be noted that when using Talons you will hit 2d3 times each compared to caltrops' 1d6, or an average of four hits with talons to 3.5 with caltrops. Pinning is unreliable, yes, but nice when it happens, and Talons obviously save you a decent number of points (10 or 20 can go a LONG way in the DE Codex (especially if you're using a lot of vehicle upgrades)). Honestly, when all is said and done, I think both are priced fairly for what they do. It really depends upon your tastes and the types of enemy you'll most likely be facing.

[Mal]

Well, Grav Talon lets you pull out an IC too, that can be useful. I do agree that against Marines the S6 hits are probabl more use, but against most other armies pinning would be useful.

Grav talons can't pull out an IC, thats stun claws on the hellions that do that.


It's worth noting that the Grav Talons, unlike Cluster Caltrops, are used in addition to Bladevanes. So on top of their strength difference, it should also be noted that when using Talons you will hit 2d3 times each compared to caltrops' 1d6, or an average of four hits with talons to 3.5 with caltrops. Pinning is unreliable, yes, but nice when it happens, and Talons obviously save you a decent number of points (10 or 20 can go a LONG way in the DE Codex (especially if you're using a lot of vehicle upgrades)). Honestly, when all is said and done, I think both are priced fairly for what they do. It really depends upon your tastes and the types of enemy you'll most likely be facing.

I expect the wording of grav talons to be altered to replace bloodvanes, so make the most of it.

[yrdetraxe]

Well... Actually none of the upgrades say's "replace"
it just say's "One model per three Reavers may take either:"

And in the Description there ist no mentioning of replacing the bladevanes as well.

So according to RAW they can both be used in addition to the bladevanes. ;)

No matter if they replace the bladevanes or not, I would prefer the Caltrops as the higher strength makes wounding nearly all enemys much easier.

[isotope99]

A model with cluster caltrops inflicts D6 S6 AP- hits with its bladevanes

A grav talon can be used in the same way as bladevanes,...

I don't think the distinction is an accident, but we'll see if they publish an errata/FAQ. So your choice is between:

Grav Talon: 2D3 S4 hits (2-6, average 4), some of which can cause pinning

Cluster Caltrops: D6 S6 hits (1-6, average 3.5) for an extra 10 points over the Grav Talon which don't cause pinning but do wound T3/4 on 2+

Note: Sadly, one of the bladevane rules is it can only hit non-vehicle units which for me puts the Grav Talon on top.

Mathhammer says:


Caltrops averages 0.97 dead marines and 1.94 dead guard (assume no cover)
Grav Talon averages 0.67 dead marines and 1.78 dead guard (assume no cover) and has a small chance of inflicting pinning, plus is 10 points cheaper.

[yrdetraxe]

damn.... you're right.
I've just reread the wording and saw this myself.
Still a bit unclear on the wording for the grav talon however.

Oh well, I have to try them both out and see myself which is better as I don't trust mathhammer. :p

[DrBored]

If you think about it logically, the Grav Talon and Cluster Caltrops are upgrades that are housed on the underside of the vehicle, and the Bladevanes are the actual BLADES on the vehicle itself. These Blades are not removed for the sake of adding the Talon or Caltrops.

I suppose time will tell which is best. Here's how I intend to run my Reavers:

6-man squad with x2 Cluster Caltrops, x2 Heat Lances

The idea is to flyby something on the ground and get behind the enemy's vehicles (to look at that juicy rear armor) and hopefully survive the next round of shooting with their cover saves. If the enemy turns to destroy them, or turns their vehicles to protect them, then the rest of the Dark Eldar army has Dark Lances. The next turn, if they're still around, they'll move to the melta-range of the Heat Lance, attempt to pop vehicles, and then move their 6" assault move away or into cover if possible, or if their target is juicy enough, they'll assault.

I don't see the unit surviving very long at all. Maybe getting one shot with the Heat Lances, because to shoot those you're giving up your chance to Turbo Boost.

Alternatively, drop the Heat Lances completely and put your Reavers in reserve. With 36" of range, you could lure your enemy a little closer, pop their transports with other weapons, and then have the Reavers zoom in on the table and start dropping those s6 hits each turn. It will increase their survivability and bring them on the table when they can be most useful (attacking infantry, not vehicles)

[Archon]

Just to be sure, because if haven´t a codex already, the upgrades for flyby-damage are limited to the bike with the upgrade? Or does the whole unit benefits from the upgrade?

[Mal]

All bikes get bloodvanes as standard.

[DrBored]

Yes, all bikes get Bladevanes standard (which are d3 str 4 autohits) but you can upgrade to Cluster Caltrops (d6 str 6 autohits) or to the Grav Talon (d3 str 4 autohits that can cause pinning).

The upgrade is specific to the bike that has it, much like a Melta Gun is specific to the Space Marine that has it.

So for example if you have 3 reavers do a flyby attack and one has a Cluster Caltrop, you'll be doing two instances of d3 str 4 hits and one instance of d6 str 6 hits (for a minimum of 3 hits and a maximum of 12)

[davel]

Haven't seen this mentioned in thread and I am still picking my way through the codex.

with regards to pinning the dark eldar do have at least 1 vehicle up grade that reduces ld. With a near by raider and multiple strikes by reavers in the movement phase could be a viable tactic for achieving pining.

dave l

[Mal]

yes, but you have to be very very close, and a -1 to a leadership of 9 isn't really worth the risk.

[DrBored]

Haven't seen this mentioned in thread and I am still picking my way through the codex.

with regards to pinning the dark eldar do have at least 1 vehicle up grade that reduces ld. With a near by raider and multiple strikes by reavers in the movement phase could be a viable tactic for achieving pining.

dave l

Right, the Torment Grenade Launcher, which can be attached to Raiders, but you'd need at least 2 firing at the same target that Reavers then target in order to get a decent chance at pinning a squad of Space Marines.

I think we all just have to realize that pinning is only ever going to work against non Space Marines, and even then it's pretty hit-or-miss.

Which is why, IMO, the Cluster Caltrops are the better choice.

[eldargal]

I knew that, just seeing if you did.:o Stupid blonde moments.


Grav talons can't pull out an IC, thats stun claws on the hellions that do that.

[davel]

yes, but you have to be very very close, and a -1 to a leadership of 9 isn't really worth the risk.
I don't think the closeness is a problem as your raiders are trying to get in close any way. This all takes place in the dark eldar move. once successful pins or not are made squad on raider ( whyches would also be good cargo as the- ld would help them run down prey) leave the pinned squad and target something else or if not pinned finish it off.
My experience is once raiders are in they have done their job. They may be easy kill points but if they are in close and the cargo is away then your opponent has bigger problems.
This wargear helps the raider neutralise a squad while it can shoot at another. with carful positioning and multiple strikes from bike squads imagine the following

foes battle line squad 1 squad 2 squad 3 squad 4 squad 5
( all in a line)

With (yes i know easier said than done) bikes squads passing over the entire thing and picking on squad 2 and 4 sucessful pins isolates squads 1 3 and 5. even if this fails the bikes are going to do the same thing next turn presenting foe with what is the biggest threat. More pins can be inflicted with pinning weapons but they seem to be few in the DE army.
this piece of war gearsynergies well with many arcane war gear choices which are ld based. It seems to be the only war gear item that reduced ld ( and only ever by 1) and it's cheap

dave l