View Full Version : Abaddon and Obliterators
Bedroom General
11-03-2010, 06:15 AM
Gudday,
I recently picked up a second hand Abaddon and have been thinking about who to run him with. Atm its in a possessed Landraider with 8 Berzerkers inc chmp n' fist. Then I thought, that is hellishly expensive points wise. So how about Deepstriking him with 2 or 3 Obliterators, they are infantry, and I can't see a rule precluding and IC joining them. So why not drop 'em in close, blow stuff up, weather the next round storm, then split with the big A peeling off into carnage whilst the remaining oblits do their stuff. Everyone's fearless with multi wounds and great saves. All for under 500 pts. Is this a good idea? Has anyone given it a try?
Can't say as I have ever tried it, and I don't have my chaos codex with me atm so I can't check for any limitations on IC's joining oblits, but I don't remember there being a rule to prevent it.
It seems like a reasonable tactic for getting Mr. A into the field where he can do a lot of damage as you can shift some of the incomming fire onto the oblits.
I'd say its worth trying out, I can't help you here as I only run sorcerers in my chaos lists, but i'd be interested to hear how it does in game.
Drew da Destroya
11-03-2010, 07:48 AM
That idea is crazy, in a good way. I'd be terrified to see Crabbadon dropping in with some Oblits, honestly... it'd prevent me from charging the Oblits.
zenjah
11-03-2010, 08:17 AM
The big disadvantage to attaching an IC to Obliterators is the fact that he will end up Slow and Purposeful. Even in the turn when the IC is leaving the unit, he still has to roll to see how far he moves as he was part of the unit at the start of the movement phase. It is even remotely possible that he will roll badly and fail to leave the unit!
I once joined a winged Sorcerer to some Obliterators to hide from shooting attacks. The next turn, after a lengthy debate with my opponent, I realized he was not going to be able to move 12" away. Instead I rolled 2" and barely even broke coherency...
Demonus
11-03-2010, 08:47 AM
I think that is a crazy idea and sounds pretty awesome. Deepstrike them close enough, and you dont have to worry about Slow N Purposeful!
You do not need to break coherency for friendly units, you can detach the IC and leave everyone where they are.
You only need to worry about coherency when joining a unit.
Also you detatch at the start of the movement phase before you move, so you while you will still be limited to the speed of the slowest model in the unit, the IC is a unit on their own and the slowest speed it its own.
Anyone who made you limit your movement after leaving the unit was cheating you.
zenjah
11-03-2010, 09:18 AM
The IC is a member of the unit until he leaves coherency. Thus he rolls for Slow and Purposeful. Only after moving does he leave the unit.
I did think the ruling was debatable, and so I debated it. But a close reading of the rules led me to conclude that the IC can't avoid the Slow and Purposeful rule simply by declaring he is going to move. He has to actually move out of coherence first-- and until he does so he is Slow and Purposeful.
Can you point to a rule that says you detach an IC from a unit first, and then move out of coherence with it?
Check out page 48 of the BRB, ok I was wrong about having to move out of coherency (how bloody asanine is that?), but nowhere does it say that you do your movement before you leave a unit...
Also it doesn't say that if you leave a unit you continue to be limited by the units speed, it only says your movement is limitede while you are a part of the unit.
The rules do not stop you from leaving a slow and purposeful unit and moving your maximum distance.
zenjah
11-03-2010, 12:56 PM
I am going to hold off on this debate until later when I have quotes from the book to back up my arguments.
The wording is a bit unclear on when he leaves, but the wording is he leaves,"... by moving out of coherency distance with it(the unit)" (RB p. 47). The intent for the independent character and the unit to move at the pace of the slowest model in the unit, is to get a uniform way of moving a unit and not having to move at 3-4 different speeds. The question then is;
1: Does the intent to move them out of coherency mean they move at their normal speed again?
2: Do they still count as moving at the units speed, because they are not outside coherency when they start to move.
3: Do they get to use the "move though cover" USR when they leave.
Rules are as mentioned above, the IC HAS to move out of coherency. But this is a prime examples of GW's "This is how it generally works" and "This is what we intended it to work" rules.
Rules as written says, that you have to move at the units speed, since you are a part of it until HE MOVES out of coherency. So doesn't even help, that they move, since he would have to move with them to stay in coherency as he is actively part of the unit, until HE MOVES out of coherency. He can chose to do so as the whole unit moves, but then he would still have to abide by "the slowest model" rule and has to move at the slower pace.
The MTC USR rule is lost as long as he is still in the unit, so that doesn't work in his favour either.
Notice, that this "interpretation" of the rule would also mean that a IC with a heavy or rapid fire weapon of sorts, would be forced to move if he wants to leave the unit and would have to shoot at penalty or the unit has to stay with him, for him to shoot, since HE has to move out of coherency to leave.
In my opinion this is of cause a load of crap, since that is definitely not the intention of how the rule should work. The intention is for the character to "be with" the unit or not. The coherency rule is meant to distinguish between characters that are in a unit and those who are not. It would be rather lame to have to move your IC because of that (Master of the forge conversion beamer any one?). As long as the character is outside of coherency at the end of the movement phase, there really shouldn't be a problem. The character reverts to normal movement as soon as he decides to leave, in my opinion.
The rule should have been worded as follows:
"An independent character can leave a unit, by not maintaining unit coherency with it. This, either by moving away from it, by having the unit move away from him or by both moving away from each other. As long as they end the movement phase not in unit coherency. The character reverts to his normal movement rules, as soon as you decide to leave a unit. The independent character is free to join another unit in the same movement phase."
I don't think you can convince Kharn to stay back because the Oblits are slow :D
NB:
A counter could be to move the unit first, and then as soon as he has to move, to stay in coherency, you could argue that he is moving to leave and since he is formally out of coherency, he would now move at normal speed or at least gets his MTC USR back.
zenjah
11-03-2010, 05:12 PM
Page 48 of the main rulebook states: "An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."
My interpretation of this rule is that the act of moving out of coherency is what causes an independent character to leave a unit. He cannot be considered to have left the unit until he leaves coherency. Until he leaves coherency, he is part of the unit, and thus counts as moving through difficult terrain, as per the rules for Slow and Purposeful.
It never says that an IC can leave a unit by declaring that he will do so. You actually have to move out of coherency to leave the unit.
That said, I think this is a classic example of the 40k rules being not entirely clear-cut, and being open to different interpretations. And I feel that the RAW as I understand it is silly, and that an IC should be able to leave a Slow and Purposeful unit without counting as moving through difficult terrain while he departs.
DarkLink
11-03-2010, 05:55 PM
Unfortunately, they don't clarify if the IC can move out of coherency, then move back in in the same turn. So, for example, if you have a Captain attached to a Devestator squad. You then move the captain out of coherency, then back into coherency in a different spot. Can the Dev sqaud shoot its heavy weapons?
Really, GW just needs to hire PP to write their rules for them. Then we wouldn't have half as many grey areas in the first place, and we wouldn't have to wait 6 months for a mostly useless FAQ.
JxKxR
11-04-2010, 02:06 PM
The way I read it is when he does do his movement to move out of unit coherency he is using his movement to do so and therefore is not restricted. They have the rule to represent the guy walking with the unit until the IC decides he needs to leave. He is no longer with the unit and so is not slowed by them because he is leaving them in the dust. Why can't people go off what the rules mean to represent instead of getting so caught up on wording.
The rule is a little unclear yes, but I see nothing in teh rule to say your still attached until you've moved more then 2" away, if this was the case then the character would force the unit to count as having moved because he moved whilst still attached, yet we know this is not the case!
I can see no other interpretation that takes all of the rules into account other than the one that allows a character to leave a slow unit and move his full movement allowance that turn.
DarkLink
11-04-2010, 03:56 PM
Yeah, it's a weird little situation where during the movement phase itself, you're neither attached nor unattached, and it isn't until the end of the movement phase and you determine coherency that the wave function collapses. Schrodinger's Independent Character, if you will:rolleyes:.
JxKxR
11-04-2010, 04:20 PM
Just think of it logically, if he is moving away why wouldn't he use his own movement? Why would he be slowed down by a unit he is leaving? I find this discussion maddening! If I tried this and got crap from my opponent I might lose it.
Connjurus
11-04-2010, 06:25 PM
Just think of it logically, if he is moving away why wouldn't he use his own movement? Why would he be slowed down by a unit he is leaving? I find this discussion maddening! If I tried this and got crap from my opponent I might lose it.
Same, I'm sorry, but Abaddon, deepstriking in with a personal cohort of meatshields, he wouldn't then be considerate and say, "Alright chaps, thanks for that, I'll see you in a bit, wanna catch a coffee?" as he walked nonchalantly away. Hell no. He'd run fullspeed towards the nearest enemy unit, knowing full well they were about to die.
DarkLink
11-04-2010, 08:59 PM
Just think of it logically, if he is moving away why wouldn't he use his own movement? Why would he be slowed down by a unit he is leaving? I find this discussion maddening! If I tried this and got crap from my opponent I might lose it.
The issue isn't whether or not he's using his own movement. It's about whether or not he's still attached to the unit. If he stays attached, then "his movement" is the same as the squad's movement. If he detaches, then he can move independently of the squad.
Connjurus
11-04-2010, 09:53 PM
The issue isn't whether or not he's using his own movement. It's about whether or not he's still attached to the unit. If he stays attached, then "his movement" is the same as the squad's movement. If he detaches, then he can move independently of the squad.
I'm so glad the friends I play with are RAI, now RAW. :P
DarkLink
11-05-2010, 12:06 AM
Not really related, but RAI isn't really Rules As Intended. It's really RAWWTTB; Rules A We Want Them To Be.
Which isn't a problem, I'm just being nitpicky. The term RAI is exactly the same thing as RAW, since RAW is the game designer's explanation of what the rules are. We don't really know if GW meant for the IC to stay attached to the squad or not, so we just have to wing it. Meaning RAWWTTB, not RAI.
Of course, RAI is a lot easier acronym than RAWWTTB :rolleyes:
eldargal
11-05-2010, 12:59 AM
It seems fairly clear to me that under RAW the act of breaking coherency is required for a character to leave a unit.:confused: Until he leaves he is part of the unit, he has to move in order to leave, so his movement is part of the unnit until he breaks coherency.
Bedroom General
11-05-2010, 02:06 AM
This is quite a revelation to me. When I posted I had never considered the absurdity of this particular element of the rules. Crazily enough, I just assumed that if Abaddon was leaving he would be under his own speed. I believe I misinterpreted it as something like " As long as the IC ends his movement out of coherency, he has left the unit" which I must have assumed was what they meant. I'll just have to deepstrike closer, or discuss it with my opponent. It is an interesting option though, running Any terminator HQ with deepstriking oblits. Obviously Abby's a good choice though.
Got to do a repaint/rebase on my model, then I'll try this tactic, even with slow and purposeful. I usually want to get within 6 of a tank with these guys anyway. I am very optimistic when deepstriking,and yes I lose a few good men to the warp. My little plastic soldiers, however, are surprisingly resilient. They usually show up the next time I battle.;)
I disagree...
Following the rules the character must end their movement 2" away from the unit...
It doesn't say anything about them being still attached to the unit while they move away.
So you declare your character is detached from the unit... then you move your character his normal movement, and move the oblits if you so choose, providing the character is 2" away at the end of movement, everything is legal.
Daemonette666
11-05-2010, 08:16 AM
The big disadvantage to attaching an IC to Obliterators is the fact that he will end up Slow and Purposeful. Even in the turn when the IC is leaving the unit, he still has to roll to see how far he moves as he was part of the unit at the start of the movement phase. It is even remotely possible that he will roll badly and fail to leave the unit!
I once joined a winged Sorcerer to some Obliterators to hide from shooting attacks. The next turn, after a lengthy debate with my opponent, I realized he was not going to be able to move 12" away. Instead I rolled 2" and barely even broke coherency...
But the Obliterators have to move as well. They can move away from Abbadon, and get the required 3" distance.
Daemonette666
11-05-2010, 08:34 AM
If you keep Abbadon 2" from the nearest Obliterator, then when he moves, he will easily get out of unit coherency when he moves off. The ruling whether he has to roll for slow and purposeful before he leaves is still a contentious issue.
I would have thought that when you stated you were getting your character to leave the unit, then the IC was acting as a new unit when he/she decided to move at the beginning of the movement phase.
But enough about the slow and purposeful rule and leaving a unit.
Abbadon, would probably be better be attached to a unit of chaos terminators, unless you can guarantee that you have an icon nearby to guide him and the squad close to your target. I have had Obliterator squads destroyed by enemy firing massive amounts of firepower into them. Forcing them to take 20+ armour and invulnerable saves.
You also need another squad to drop in via deep strike to force your opponent to split their fire power between the units or feel the wrath of the survivor. A Raptor unit with an icon of Khorne or Slaanesh is a good option for a second unit.
I tend to not use Abbadon in games less than 300 points anyway, I find Kharn or Lucius are more affective, and you can get a daemon prince to back up which ever one you take, all for the same or similar price to Abbadon.
I like sitting my Obliterators in cover with a squad of Iron warriors or noise marines, and holding an objective near my table edge.
DarkLink
11-05-2010, 11:45 AM
What's bad is that a member of a squad may not leave coherency. So if the IC is attached to the squad during the movement phase, then it is impossible for him to even move outside the 2" in order to leave. And even if the enemy was kind enough to kill the models he is within coherency with, then he would have to attempt to move back into coherency because he was still part of the squad.
It seems fairly clear to me that under RAW the act of breaking coherency is required for a character to leave a unit.:confused: Until he leaves he is part of the unit, he has to move in order to leave, so his movement is part of the unnit until he breaks coherency.
I disagree...
Following the rules the character must end their movement 2" away from the unit...
It doesn't say anything about them being still attached to the unit while they move away.
So you declare your character is detached from the unit... then you move your character his normal movement, and move the oblits if you so choose, providing the character is 2" away at the end of movement, everything is legal.
Calypso2ts
11-05-2010, 01:50 PM
Except for the fact IC are given specific permission to move out of coherency for the purposes of leaving a unit? I agree though, until they move out of coherency they are part of the unit and move at its speed.
Except for the fact IC are given specific permission to move out of coherency for the purposes of leaving a unit? I agree though, until they move out of coherency they are part of the unit and move at its speed.
The point im making is the rules simply do not say this.
They just say the character must end its movement at least 2" away from the unit, once you leave a unit,m your a unit in your own right, so you still have to move away, that doesn't stop you being a unit in your own right, and as such are limited by only your own movement rules.
zenjah
11-06-2010, 09:57 AM
The point im making is the rules simply do not say this.
They just say the character must end its movement at least 2" away from the unit, once you leave a unit,m your a unit in your own right, so you still have to move away, that doesn't stop you being a unit in your own right, and as such are limited by only your own movement rules.
You don't seem to be reading the rules very carefully. They specify how you leave a unit. It has nothing to do with declaring it.
What the rules do say is this: "An independent character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."
Lets look at that sentence carefully. It says he can leave during the movement phase. Not before, not at the beginning. During. It says he can do so by moving out of coherency distance. Not by declaring it. By moving.
Why did they use the words "by moving out of coherency distance" instead of "by declaring that he will do so"?
What does the word "by" mean?
All the rule says is he has to move out of coherency, it does not say the IC is subject to the movement limitations of the unit after he has left it, which is what you are saying.
Either way im done with this. I've stated my piece and I honestly don't care what you think.
Bedroom General
11-19-2010, 04:15 AM
Ok, well I played a 1500pt pick up game at the games club I run. I brought them along really to show people my rebased Abaddon. I had: abby with 3 oblits, 2 oblits, 8xKB 2x PP Rh,
5xPM 2xPG Rh XA HL (x2) Defiler RAC HL.
Got clubbed to death like a baby seal by a 13 year old with a Dark Angels list (Oh the irony!!) featuring Eziekiel (Not "Easy-Kill!!) and Belial, 5x lightning terminators in a landraider Crusader, 5x veterans in ANOTHER landraider, a rhino squad and a dev squad, or something, I've never played them before. Ty was a great opponent and I found it too hard to pop two LR's Abby went down swinging, but I hate that he can wound himself (just when I needed him not to!) Hmmm. Just can't tell how efficient this tactic (Abby and Obis)is yet, but it sure sucked tonight!!;)
Legoklods
11-19-2010, 06:51 AM
Ok, well I played a 1500pt pick up game at the games club I run. I brought them along really to show people my rebased Abaddon. I had: abby with 3 oblits, 2 oblits, 8xKB 2x PP Rh,
5xPM 2xPG Rh XA HL (x2) Defiler RAC HL.
erh...
can you explain your abbreviations please?...
PP, PM, PG, XA, HL, RAC...:confused:
Bedroom General
11-19-2010, 09:42 AM
Million apologies.
Used my list abbreviations
XA extra armour
PP plasma pistol
PG plasma gun
HL Havok launcher
RAC reaper assault cannon
4x4 table, I couldn't get far enough away from the landraiders. The dice were also feeling a little unkind.
Great battle though, just a hard list to beat with my list, and a canny opposing general!
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