Archon Builds

[VulkansApprentice]

Is there something I'm missing in all the builds for an archon I've seen floating around? With the option of replacing both the CCW and pistol, am I really the first to see taking both huskblade/PW and venom blades? Everyone I've read has been taking huskblade, but without poison it's only S3? For an extra 5 points you can also take venom blades, making wound on 2+ insta-kill PW attacks. It's 40 points with the huskblade, or 20 points with a PW if you feel the need to save points and not get the insta-kill.

I've only been able to see the rulebook once, but unless I missed somewhere that you can't take both together, why would you not take them both (venom with PW/huskblade)?

I'm looking at:
Archon-60
Shadowfield-30
Huskblade-35
Venom Blades-5
Phantasm grenade launcher(not for the Archon, but the Incubi who don't have grenades)-25
-155

And to accompany:
-5x basic Incubi (not a fan of the upgrades)-110
-raider with flickerfield/nightshield-80
-190

For a total of 345 points for a pretty nasty assault unit. Not something you would want to send at hordes, but will eat smaller elite units alive; or even MC. With WS7, I7, 2+ instakilling attacks, most will fall hard. Granted he can be singled out and insta-killed easily, but vs an MC with a relatively low volume of attacks, his shadowfield should hold a while. VS MEQ with relatively few PW, the Incubi striking at WS5 I5, S4 PW attacks should eat a good number on their own.

Thoughts? Anything I missed from my limited viewing of the current rules?

[DarkLink]

You can take both together. However, you must pick which one you use each turn. So either you get a power weapon that inflicts ID, or you get to wound on a 4+. But you don't get both effects at the same time.

[harrybuttwhisker]

You only gain the benefit of one type of close combat attack unless otherwise stated. You can't stack the effects of poison and a husk blade.

[BuFFo]

The Archon does not have the variation it once did.

Generally, the Archon will be rolling with this combination in just about all my Kabal based lists;

Husk Blade
Venom Blade
Shadowfield
Drug Dispenser
Ghostplate Armor

Why?

Husk Blade - At first I was not sold on this, being only Strength 3, but so far in games it has instant killed many multiple wound models just fine. I am still on the fence with this item, but I am leaning on the side of keeping it for now.

Venom Blade - For when you need to kill hordes.

Shadowfield - Obvious here.

Drug Dispenser - Every single choice, except for the +1 Weapon Skill, will benefit the Archon in this configuration somehow. +1 Strength and Reroll Wounds in combat help out the Husk Blade kill more efficiently. Extra Run is always great. Getting Feel No Pain right off the bat is also a great thing.

Ghostplate Armor - Your Shadowfield will fail. A lot. You need back up armor! So far, 4+ Save and 4+ FNP have proven to be so useful I can't stress this enough.


Another configuration I was thinking is a more anti-MEQ build;

Agonizer
Djinn Blade
Shadowfield
Drug Dispenser
Ghostplate Armor

This is an all around build that allows the Archon to have 7 power weapon attacks on the charge, maybe even 8 if you got the +1 Attack from your Combat Drugs.

[VulkansApprentice]

Good to know, thanks for the info guys. All these crazy options for weapons is kinda new to me since I've mostly been a marine/CSM player since I started about 5 years ago. I always liked the speed/glass hammer aspect of the DE, but I never jumped in, mostly because of the outdated models more so than the rules. I'd have picked them up even if they just released the new models without new rules; the codex is just icing.

With this in mind my mood has changed. I still like this build of Archon, but I'm liking Vect more with his 3+ PW. So many points, but so good as long as you don't blow all the points on the Dais and required bodies to fill it. But I also have more points to play around with sinnce the units are so much cheaper than marines. Have to play around with it some more.

[Mal]

Personally I only ever give my archon a single special ccw as him just carrying 2 different special ccw's means he can't get an extra attack for 2 ccws.

Personal preference, but I find the extra attack is usually enough to balance things out nicely and it costs less.

[crazy_irish]

Agonizer
Djinn Blade
Shadowfield
Drug Dispenser
Ghostplate Armor


Then why not take this build? The Djinn Blade does not swap with your pistol/CCW so you still have the +1A and 2 Special CCW.

@BuFFo: Why do you not take the soultrap? It would benefit both of your builds. And having 8 S6 Attacks would even top the old Punisher,Drugs& Animus Vitae build.

[gcsmith]

Djinn blades also dnt have to be wielded as it doesnt replace ur weapons it seems to be u can use say your huskblade then at end of combat get 2 free Power weapon attacks from djin blade

[crazy_irish]

Djinn blades also dnt have to be wielded as it doesnt replace ur weapons it seems to be u can use say your huskblade then at end of combat get 2 free Power weapon attacks from djin blade

Its not an upgrade. It is Listed in the Weapon section AND it clearly stats that it is an energy weapon. It just does not replace a pistol or CCW

[gcsmith]

Well I just see it as since it doesnt replace your combat weapons its not needed to be weilded to be used,
and in my opinion the reason It states its a power weapon is to make its bonus attacks power weapon attacks.

Obviously opinions will be divided, But I dnt see any other reason why it doesnt replace CCW or pistol.

[scadugenga]

It may not replace a weapon in the codex entry, but a Djinn blade is in the "weapons" entry in the wargear section of the 'dex.

Unless they're saying it literally acts on it's own accord and attacks w/o being actually wielded by hand..I can't see this working in conjunction with other special weapons.

[gcsmith]

well it is a sentient blade. either way I would equip my archon with it to use after he got s10 from huskblade and soultrap, but only in larger games

[Mal]

The djinn blade is not part of normal combat, it is not weilded by the user and it cannot gain the bonus from other weapons used by the weilder... it is treated as independant, it is a power weapon, but for the archon to have power weapon attacks with his normal attacks then he needs to be armed with a different special ccw that is counted as a power weapon.

The thing to remember is the djinn attacks are seperate from the archons.

[gcsmith]

good I was right then.

[BuFFo]

The djinn blade just gives you two power weapon attacks on top of whatever you would normally get. It isn't a weapon in itself. It is just a piece of wargear, like grenades or a sock drawer.

Which is why I sort like Lady Malys. She gets a metric ton of power weapon attacks on the charge. Pretty nifty.

[DrBored]

If the Djinn Blade only adds 2 attacks to a character/model, like Lady Malys, then she only gets those 2 Power Weapon attacks. The rest are based on this 'steel fan' she gets, which is just a normal close combat weapon.

[BuFFo]

If the Djinn Blade only adds 2 attacks to a character/model, like Lady Malys, then she only gets those 2 Power Weapon attacks. The rest are based on this 'steel fan' she gets, which is just a normal close combat weapon.

I don't know where people are getting that Lady has a Djin Blade. She does not.

She has The Lady's Blade. This weapon has two rules. It is a Power Weapon. It acts as a better version OF a Djin Blade, but it is not a Djin Blade.

Lady is equipped with a CCW and a Power Weapon.

[Archon Charybdis]

Which is why I sort like Lady Malys. She gets a metric ton of power weapon attacks on the charge. Pretty nifty.


I don't know where people are getting that Lady has a Djin Blade. She does not.

She has The Lady's Blade. This weapon has two rules. It is a Power Weapon. It acts as a better version OF a Djin Blade, but it is not a Djin Blade.

Lady is equipped with a CCW and a Power Weapon.

The wording on the Lady's Blade is the Djin Blade entry verbatim, with the exception of what happens when you roll a double. If the Djin Blade isn't a weapon in of itself, despite the rule stating "A djin blade is a power weapon," then neither is The Lady's Blade.

[somerandomdude]

I think a key difference between Lady Malys and the Archon from the example is that Malys doesn't have a second special weapon.

[gcsmith]

I guess it can be wielded, but its effects take place without saying it needs to be wielded.

[BuFFo]

The wording on the Lady's Blade is the Djin Blade entry verbatim, with the exception of what happens when you roll a double. If the Djin Blade isn't a weapon in of itself, despite the rule stating "A djin blade is a power weapon," then neither is The Lady's Blade.

Excecpt, if you actually read The Lady's Blade, it bluntly tells you "The Lady's Blade is a power weapon.


I think a key difference between Lady Malys and the Archon from the example is that Malys doesn't have a second special weapon.


Yes she does. She has a CCW and The Lady's Blade.


I guess it can be wielded, but its effects take place without saying it needs to be wielded.

Of course it can be wielded. The Lady's Blade is just a power weapon that gives you two free attacks a turn. It is NOT a Djin Blade.

[gcsmith]

I was talking about the DJinn blade then buffo.

[Xas]

The Djinn blade also blatantly states that it "is a power weapon".

[Archon Charybdis]

Excecpt, if you actually read The Lady's Blade, it bluntly tells you "The Lady's Blade is a power weapon.

Exactly the same was as the Djin Blade, as Xas and I have pointed out. The Lady's Blade rules are copy pasta from the Djin Blade, except for the rules pertaining to rolling doubles.


Yes she does. She has a CCW and The Lady's Blade.

A basic close combat weapon is the opposite of a special weapon--the Lady does not have two special CCWs.




Of course it can be wielded. The Lady's Blade is just a power weapon that gives you two free attacks a turn.

Exactly the same as a Djin Blade: "[A djin blade/The Lady's Blade] is a power weapon. Furthermore, [the bearer/Malys] makes two bonus attacks every round of combat-- roll these separately. If any double is rolled for these two attacks when rolling to hit..."

[DrBored]

Oh I get it.

Ok. So. Malys is armed with a close combat weapon and the Lady's Blade (a power weapon) which means she has 2 close combat weapons, and that all of her attacks are counted as power weapons (same as a sgt with a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol. The Bolt Pistol adds an extra close combat attack for being a close combat weapon, but that bonus attack is counted as a Power Weapon attack).

So she gets 4 attacks base, +1 for extra CCweapon, +1 for the charge, and +2 for the Lady's Blade effect, for a maximum of 8 attacks on the charge, and a minimum of 5 if the blade rolls doubles.

It's the most power weapon attacks a single model can make at maximum, for the most part. Drazhar can get there too actually (4 base, +1 for extra CCW, +2 for demiklaive bonus, +1 for charge), and Lelith can get beyond that, as we're all aware.

But anyway. So there. Argument solved. It's a Power Weapon that gives you an extra special rule, but with or without the special rule, it's a power weapon.

[BuFFo]

Oh I get it.

Ok. So. Malys is armed with a close combat weapon and the Lady's Blade (a power weapon) which means she has 2 close combat weapons, and that all of her attacks are counted as power weapons (same as a sgt with a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol. The Bolt Pistol adds an extra close combat attack for being a close combat weapon, but that bonus attack is counted as a Power Weapon attack).

So she gets 4 attacks base, +1 for extra CCweapon, +1 for the charge, and +2 for the Lady's Blade effect, for a maximum of 8 attacks on the charge, and a minimum of 5 if the blade rolls doubles.

It's the most power weapon attacks a single model can make at maximum, for the most part. Drazhar can get there too actually (4 base, +1 for extra CCW, +2 for demiklaive bonus, +1 for charge), and Lelith can get beyond that, as we're all aware.

But anyway. So there. Argument solved. It's a Power Weapon that gives you an extra special rule, but with or without the special rule, it's a power weapon.

This is 100% correct.

You nailed it right on the head in all accounts.

[crazy_irish]

Soooo, IF the Djinn Blade WOULD just be an Upgrade, then the Hex Rifel of the Haemonculus would also just be an Upgrade, so does this weapon then make the Haemonculi into a Sniper and could i then use his pistol as a 36" Sniper pistol? And what can he do with his upgrade to an assault weapon :D

Really guys. the Djinn blade just does not swap with another weapon. it is funny how much can be read out of the rules if you just believe...

the Djinn blade is clearly a weapon as it can be found in the weapon sektion, so it is a weapon with a special rule, and as we all know, you only get the rule if you use the weapon. otherwise, it would say it clearly, as in the servo-arm entry. ;)

[Archon Charybdis]

Really guys. the Djinn blade just does not swap with another weapon. it is funny how much can be read out of the rules if you just believe...

But the people want to beeelieeeeeve! ;)

In fairness though, I imagine that many people's assumption when reading "sentient Djin Blade that grants two additional attacks" was something along the lines of a dancing weapon from D&D. The independent floating weapon is a fairly common fantasy trope, and the fact that it's listed separate from the other weapon options for an Archon is kind of misleading.

[Torcano]

Personally I 100% agree with Buffo/gcsmith. The Djinn blade was clearly put seperate from the other weapons for a reason: it is more of a "wargear" upgrade. It grants you +2 PW attacks after yours are made.

Now the FLUFF behind whether its wielded, a floating blade, or invisible is PURELY FLUFF and for FLUFFINESS. It has 0 impact on the game rules, and to be honest is based mostly on conjecture and subjective thoughts.

My own initial interpretation of the FLUFF is that the Djin buff can basically be applied to any other weapon. So if you take it with a Venom Blade, it becomes a Djinni Venom Blade. And all yours attacks and bonus ones would all have the Venom buff and be power weapon. However it seems that people are agreeing that you wouldn't get the Venom benefit on your bonus attacks or the PW buff on your regular attacks?

Still might just go with the 2 extra attacks are more magical in nature, possibly a sort of "force" blade slashing from the weapon in addition to the Archon's own blows. These interpretations seemed pretty natural to me and fit very nicely with what the rules and fluff say in my opinion.

Actually to me its the only thing that makes sense, otherwise how could he wield all 3 weapons? The Djin must be combined with his other blade in my humble opinion.

However, whatever the case may be the fluff side of it is personal opinion.

The only discussion is about the rules, alone and of themselves. The facts:

-The Djin Blade does *not* replace either of your 2 weapons. Therefore, it is not "wielded" in the traditional sense as dictated by the rules, meaning it does not count as one of your 2 possible weapons. This is clearly intentional and for a purpose.

-Knowing this, we can deduct that it was MEANT to be used in conjunction with at least one other "special" CCW or even just the regular CCW Archons begin with (it doesn't replace it)

-Since the Djin Blade is meant to be used along side another special CCW, it would follow that the designers considered there to be BENEFITS to doing so.

The only choice "unknown" here is what exactly those benefits entail. We have 2 options:

1) They wanted Archons to be able to take and choose between 2 special weapons, only so long as one of them is the Djin blade - in other words, it alone can always be taken with another Special CCW*

2) They wanted Archons to be able to combine the benefits of 2 special weapons (as far as I know maybe the first case of this?), and made it possible by making the Djin Blade an optional upgrade for your other CCW attacks.

I lean towards the latter myself, although I know it would make people cry. And I can see that this could have been achieved more clearly (since when is GW clear on anything rules wise?).

However I would ask you this most of all: how does the Archon wield a 3rd weapon at all if it isn't combined with his other blade?

It makes no sense and it makes no sense for them to make it an option on top of your other weapons unless it was combinable, to me at least. And why oh why would they make it unique among different than the other weapons unless this was so?

*If this is the case, my question would be why the Djin Blade alone? Why choose it for this special role?

p.s. If they really wanted the Djin to taken as weapon option (that only grants bonus attacks when you wield "it") alongside another blade, why go through the trouble of making it wargear?

Wouldn't an asterisk saying it can be taken in addition to 2 other weapons do?

[BuFFo]

The Djin Blade is a power weapon. It is a special weapon, as are all CC weapons that are not just a simple CCW. You cannot combine the effects of two specials weapons together.

[neverXmore]

"A Djinn blade is a power weapon." This is a quote from its entry in the Weapons section of the Wargear pages. It means that the Djinn blade is only different from another power weapon in its fluff, and the extra rules given after "Furthermore". Therefore, a Djinn Blade is a special close combat weapon, as Buffo has stated.

Torcano, the fact that it doesn't replace one of your original two weapons means that you can replace one of them with a blaster without losing an attack, which is a third reason it could have been listed seperately from the other weapons. It still begs the question, "Why only the Djinn blade?" though.

Unfortunately, the BRB page 42 has this to say on wielding two different special close combat weapons, "When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they NEVER get the bonus attack for using two weapons". I think this means that even if you have a Venom Blade, Splinter Pistol and Djinn Blade, you have to choose which special weapon to use, and don't get an extra attack for having two close combat weapons regardless of which one you choose.

As whether you get your two bonus attacks if you're not actually attacking with your Djinn blade that round ... I admit that I'm unsure on this. Unlike most weapons with a special effect, it doesn't state that the effect applies only when attacking with that weapon. For example, the Huskblade rules state that it "is a power weapon that causes instant death ...", and the ability of the Mindphase Gauntlet only effects a model "that has been hit by a mindphase gauntlet". The Djinn Blade's rules only says that "the bearer makes two bonus attacks every round of combat". It doesn't state that the bonus attacks are only made if the "bearer" is making his normal attacks with the Djinn Blade.

If you assume that you do get your bonus attacks when wielding a Huskblade for your normal attacks, are the two bonus attacks Huskblade attacks? It states that the bearer makes two bonus attacks each round. It doesn't state that they must be made with the Djinn Blade. I don't think that this was the intention of the designer, but I always play by RAW to avoid confusion. I can't decide what RAW is in this case, so any further input would be appreciated.

I wish they had just made it a "replace one of" weapon like the others, and made the blaster a "may take a" option.

<edit> ... all this confusion would not exist if the statement "A Djinn Blade is a power weapon" was not part of the entry. Is this, perhaps, an error? It makes sense if you assume that the Djinn Blade entry was copied from The Lady's Blade, rather than the other way around. If so, hopefully it will be corrected in the FAQ. In the mean time I'll just stick to my delicious Haemies and the Duke ...

[Drew da Destroya]

In your example, they would still get the bonus attack, because a Power Weapon (Djinn Blade) + a Pistol is still a useable combination. You could not combine the Venom blade and Power Weapon, though.

I think the two extra attacks are simply power weapon attacks, since that follows logically. THe Djinn Blade is the item giving you those extra attacks, and is therefore the item used to make them.

[thecactusman17]

Here is my interpretation. But I will be the first to acknowledge that the writing is confusing from a gameplay angle.

"A Djin Blade is a power weapon." This clearly indicates the properties to use if the Djin Blade is used as a close combat weapon, and OK's the usage of this gear AS a close combat weapon.

"Furthermore, the bearer makes two bonus attacks every round of combat.... If any double is rolled, the blade rebels against its wielder"

Here's how I would interpret this in game terms:

Player attacks with pair of close combat weapons, one of which is an Agonizer. He chooses not to wield the Djin blade, so they are not Djin Blade attacks. HOWEVER...

The Djin blade activates anyway. The bearer of the Djin Blade makes two additional attacks. HOWEVER...

If the attacks are rolled as doubles, THE BLADE ITSELF attacks the bearer. The bearer is attacked with two power weapon attacks at the same strength as the original attack. These attacks IGNORE any "wound on X" rules, as they are dealt entirely with strength supplied by the bearer to the weapon.

SO: A Djin Blades bonus attacks and penalties activate regardless of whether or not this weapon is used. However, the blade's regular profile is used in the event of a failure of the Djin Blade. In the event that the bearer is S6-10 when he makes the attacks (say he has a soul trap for example) he will suffer instant death if he fails to save.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

[Drew da Destroya]

I hadn't thought about the Djinn blade + Soul Trap combo... that could be pretty sick.