View Full Version : Women GW gamers?
eldargal
08-23-2009, 10:19 PM
From the discussion in http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=346&page=9
Why are there so few females playing GW games? I know of seven, including myself, and three of those are friends of mine who became hooked after seeing how much fun I was having, two more are the spouses of members of our games club (they do play in their own right, one started before she met her husband) and the final one is a mid-teen girl who joined our group about 18 months ago. A few other clubs we have contact with claim to have a few female players but we never see or hear from them. I don't recall ever going into a GW store and seeing another girl in there, nor can I recall seeing any girls entered in tournaments that my brothers enter.
Someone in the above linked thread asked why you didn't see many/any female players, I have a few thoughts on the matter:
-It isn't considered a feminine hobby. I wouldn't say this is a big factor but it is there.
-Intimidating. If a girl is interested and she goes to a store/club, what is she met with? Hordes of teenage boys and men. Comments, whispers, looks, stares etc. It can all be very off putting. It isn't so bad if there is a group matriarch to keep things in line, but how common is that?
-Ego. A lot of boys can act very poorly to a girl entering their previously male-only group. It can make them uncomfortable, the idea of a girl beating them. They can often be extra obnoxious to the girl in a deliberate effort to drive them away. I was once slapped by my opponent during a local tournament match when I beat him (I broke his nose, but I don't go in tournaments anymore).
-LotR. Our new girl got hooked on the hobby through the LotR system, before moving to WFB before she joined and 40k after. When she told us this a couple of the boys scoffed and one made some comment implying that she was just here because of the films and wasn't a proper gamer.
-Reverse intimidation. A lot of the boys/men who play GW games are a bit shy. Having a girl in the group can be very intimidating for them, worse if they are pretty. This can also be offputting for the girl if people are too embaressed to talk to her, or worse, fight over here (I've seen it happen). In my personal experience I've found being 6ft tall, and at the risk of sounding conceited, quite pretty really tends to really scare new teenage members.
-Brand exposure. Girls tend not to discuss things like wargaming amongst themselves, unless you have a family member or close acquaintence playing how likely is the average girl to even hear about GW games, let alone see what they are about and be tempted to try it out?
What do you think? Are you a girl? Are there girls in your group? Does your wife play? etc. etc.
I'm sure I've missed out some large points I thought of yesterday... I want to add that I'm not complaining, for the most part. The onl unacceptable behaviour is rude comments and (very rare) violence. The rest is a natural reaction to the presence of (very rare) female gamers. It is a male dominated hobby and I would say 90% of male players are perfectly courteous and friendly, once they get over the initial shock.
wittdooley
08-23-2009, 10:37 PM
We have one in our group, and she's like a sister to all of us (she actually is the sister of two of the guys!). I don't know if she's entered tournaments, but she's fun to play with, plays SoB in 40k and Wood Elfs in WHFB. I think it's a lot of the male dominated universe that 40k is set in that can be off-putting. Couple that with the fact that there are copius amounts of blood and gore in the universe, and it isn't necessarily a "female" oriented hobby.
Kahoolin
08-23-2009, 10:39 PM
This is a really interesting topic. I think the problem is that for whatever reason gaming in general is flooded with teenage boys, and let's face it, teenagers aren't the most stable individuals at the best of times (I certainly wasn't).
What I can't understand though is the actual hostility females can encounter. My girlfriend and I play Halo on Xbox Live a fair bit (she is much better at it than I am btw), and I have actually seen people be hostile to her as soon as they find out she is female. It's totally bizarre. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. She never plays with her mike on because as soon as she opens her mouth there is a stunned silence, and then some kid goes "are you a girl?" in a horrified tone of voice. Every time she has spoken during a game she has recieved bad rep/been made an avoided player, and when she doesn't speak has never recieved bad rep.
What is with that? And Eldargirl I can't believe someone actually physically assaulted you! That is just insane. The number of pudgy gamers who fancy themselves martial arts experts is hilarious too, but that's another story...
I think with 40k as well the whole background is well... in the grim darkness of the far future there is only WAR pretty much says it all. Gender roles are very real in society even if individuals can and do ignore them, and girls aren;t exactly encouraged to be interested in that sort of thing. Honestly, if you're a teenager and none of your mates care about something, why would you?
Darkwynn
08-23-2009, 10:43 PM
Eldargal,
I think all of your points hit it right on the head to be honest but it has one running theme within all of your points.
I think its maturity in the hobby to be honest. There are all different types of people that join and love to play this hobby and after judging this weekend at Bols con I noticed the level of maturity of players overall on every scale. A lot of the people were great and very mature but you could notice some people were less mature then others.
Players handled a lot of things different and just their mannerisms from people approaching others and discussions just to how they treated other people. The Gaming group is usually targeted to a male group from 18-35 in the demographic area and that is one thing that is a common theme or factor is maturity.
Now, I think it would probably be better in a one on one scenario but as you add more people in the group the social dynamics change and I have seen it in gaming groups exactly what you talk about. I guess it reminds me of my days in Middle school growing up and the boys were more afraid of the girls at the yearly dance and everyone were wall flowers.
I wish my girlfriend would love to play this hobby but she doesn't want to nor does she understand it and I am sure Goatboy could write 30 pages on how she is the devil. :P
All in all I wish there were more women people in this hobby and it was more diverse as it would bring more to the hobby. As it seems there are plenty of female miniature painters who just clean up on awards yearly at all types of events :D.
Please excuse Grammer and spelling as after Bols con I am exhausted.
wittdooley
08-23-2009, 10:44 PM
I think I'm fortunate in that all but one of our core gaming group is adults, and the teenager (he's 17) is incredibly well adjusted and sensible, and so these have never really been issues for us. We've actually tried to encourage females to get in to the hobby--it always starts with the good ole Sisters of Battle!
eldargal
08-23-2009, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the replies.:)
Wittdooley, it is nice to hear that. I sometimes feel like I have an extra 30 brothers in the group. It really is so much easier toget into the game, and join a group, if you have brothers you can tag along with.
Darkwynn, maturity is the key, which actually reminds me of an interesting thing in our group. Most of the girls/women have tended to go towards WFB, I think only three of us including myself regularly play 40k, and part of that is that most of the teenage boys tend to gravitate to 40k rather than WF. I'm not making generalisations about 40k or WFB players, this is just an observation from my group. As they mature they tend toget into WFB as well. On any given night we might have 6 girls clustered around some of the fantasy tables with a few men while there will be 10-20 boys/men in the 40k side of the hall depending on turn out.
Kahoolin, to his credit he did write me a letter of apology (unprompted, passed to me through the tournament organisers) and sent me one hundred pounds with it.
Sisters of Battle are certainly an asset, which is one reason why I would like to see more female figures in the GW range. Even just the option of a female leader for most armies (bar SM and those races without girls obviously) I think would help get more girls into the hobby.
ChaosLord127
08-23-2009, 11:32 PM
I'm shocked that someone hit you, even barring the "Don't hit girls" chivalry standard, it's just f***ed up to hit anyone. Props to you for breaking his nose :)
I must say that I suffer from the reverse intimidation thought. I have trouble telling people, let alone girls, about 40k in fear of being mocked for enjoying a traditionally "nerdy" hobby. Guess I am just wimpy... I blame teenager...ness....
Anyway, I think it would be awesome to see a girl playing any GW game. As I said in the "Worst gamers" thread, it would add variety to just playing against a guy, which are fine, but it would still be nice to play a girl. As far as painting competitons go, they always seem to have the better painted models too.
So... if anyone reading this is a girl... or guy... that lives in Ventura County, CA, let me know, maybe we can game sometime.
Morgrim
08-23-2009, 11:37 PM
I'm another of the rare female gamers, and I have had a few issues.
I started with merely painting some of my friend's fantasy models and helping make terrain back in high school, and adjudicating matches. I didn't have much interest in Warhammer or the money required to play the hobby back then, and when I left school forgot all about it. Interestingly, I was the only girl even part of that group and was rarely seen as 'female' (I got invited to the boys only Leavers party; when I pointed out that I was female, they said 'but you're not like them, you're one of us'. I'm not sure if that is a compliment or not.)
I took up 40k last year after being introduced to the local gaming store by a friend, poking around at the fluff for a while, and deciding that Dark Eldar really appealed to me. It helped that in the beginning, I only ever went in in the company of two close male friends. Having perfected a death glare helped with the inevitable comments about being a girl. I've only had one guy try telling me that I shouldn't be in the store because of my gender, and he shoved me in the shoulder and said some rather uncomplimentary things, so I flattened him. This was the only time I've had major issues. By now, I'm considered a regular and the other mostly male regulars don't bat an eyelid.
It may also have helped that one of the uh, 'more mature' age-wise players is also a female, and that she is the local WHFB champion. It'd hard to claim that girls can't play if her skaven win tournaments regularly, and most teenage males don't claim a female won by sexual wiles if said female is as old as their mother. >.>
Savark
08-23-2009, 11:39 PM
I have only ever a girl twice at two different stores (one i say at both) and she scared me. besides the fact that she was actually in a GW store,but she looked a bit... well... abnormal. the other was only ever painting, she was there for ever just painting the Balrog in Ice colours. But seriously, if i was to game against a girl i wouldn't demoralize her, i have a few friends at school who are girls (Mind you their obsessions scare me, i never looked at My chemical romance the same way ever since, and i'm sure my 40k obsession scare them) they seriously deserve respect, i'm 14 now, and do not criticize women unless they are REALLY freaking me out. but i don't understand why more aren't in the hobby. Wasn't the sisters introduced to get girls into the hobby? what about our Eldar friends? half of them are probably female to let more women into the hobby.
EmperorEternalXIX
08-24-2009, 03:35 AM
You have neglected a key element of the gaming world: escapism.
I can't tell you how many of us go play these games for the very reason than to escape the female oppression in our lives and relationships. Myself included. My last girlfriend hated the game, hated how much I liked it (and often accused me of liking it more than her because I discussed it with my friends, or would not leave in the middle of games to go sit in my car outside her house with her doing nothing, etc). She hated that I did it at all and found it hugely annoying.
This always bothered me, and I have noticed many other men in the same position.
The groups I play 40K with have guys who often can't come because their wives/girlfriends gave them a hard time. We meet once a week on Sunday afternoons and the place we play closes early, guaranteeing everyone will be out and off to do whatever other things they need to without a hitch (i.e. there is never a "sorry honey the game ran later than expected..." situation at our club). Yet still many times I have heard people arguing with their significant others.
A while back on Warseer, a short film illustrating this conundrum was posted. In it, a fellow had a new girlfriend stay over and the next day he had a game scheduled with a friend, and so told her he had to go do something. When the girl demanded to know what (thinking it was another woman), he told her about the game, trying to approach it from an artistic point of view. The girl was appalled and dumped him on the spot, storming off, fuming that he was so immature as to put "some stupid game" before her. As the character in the film put it, she was even more angry than if it HAD been another woman.
Later in the film he gets a second chance, but is nearing the end of a rough game when the girl calls him. He is glad she decided to call him and immediately accepts her offer to get together than night, but tells her he just needs to finish his game. She snaps.
The end?
This kind of crap has been witnessed by me so many times it makes my head spin. One guy I knew had a very oppressive psycho girlfriend who actually became a member of the club he played at and bought an army just so she could follow him there and harass him with odd tasks and requests.
I know of one guy who got utterly ruined at a tournament because his wife called and yelled at him so much that he was spending the day playing with his "stupid toys" that he often skipped entire phases of the game and stayed away from the table (so as to calm her down, as hearing him rolling dice or in proximity to a game while she was berating him would have just infuriated her further). His partner ditched him and he was subsequently forcibly disqualified from participating further.
There is a regular at my club now who often stipulates his scheduled games with "if my wife says its okay." Needless to say...he is often not there.
Another person I know lives with his girlfriend, and she forces him to hide all of his warhammer paint and models under their bed because she doesn't want them out where anyone might see them, as she's horribly embarrassed. She doesn't let him paint, and he has to buy parts for the game in cash because she handles their banking and has threatened to walk out on their month-to-month lease for their apartment if she catches him buying the stuff. She is a friend of a friend and is unaware I too play this type of game, and so I have often overheard her talking to her girlfriends about it. "He's such an idiot. I don't know when he's going to grow up and stop playing with toys."
Trust me you haven't felt true insult until you hear your favorite pastime described to a group of women as "it's like some big gay board game, kinda, except with a bunch of creepy old perverts around the board trying to get little kids to play with them."
I know of many people who have been flat-out broken up with once their women found out that they play the game. I know of even more who are still together but the 40k player was forced to sell or renounce his army in order to do so.
Another fellow I know only comes every other weekend, because his wife gets angry at him if he goes more than twice a month.
For every female who understands and wishes to participate in this hobby, this game...there are 1000 more who try to crush it from existence and villify us for enjoying it. You've come up with many reasons why a woman might not be comfortable in the gamer environment...but for me it is the opposite. I think the gamer environment is just uncomfortable with one of its most deadly natural predators hanging about.
The number one reason people quit and swear off Warhammer is for the sake of a relationship. Even my last girlfriend of three years, who I was going to propose to, in the midst of breaking up with me said "...and you always are so excited about that stupid game!"
That isn't to say females aren't welcome in the Warhammer world. I for one have found the women I've seen around to be both incredible natural painters and pretty decent tacticians, for what it's worth. But like I said before...for every 1 of them...there are 1000 others who aren't so fond of the hobby...
You'd be welcome at my club anytime, but ultimately, I have to point out that I am a very prejudicial person, and even if you were the coolest warhammer player allive and one of the nicest or hottest girls in general, it wouldn't change my perception that female domineering is the number one killer of 40K enjoyment in my entire time being involved with the hobby.
So really I think you are unfortunately caught between these two polar shifts. On one side there are just dweeb-type dudes and pimply teenagers who are just terrified of a woman to begin with; on the other side you have people like me, where I have witnessed any woman within three degrees of separation from this game vocalize nothing but a desire to see it and its players wiped from existence.
Simply put: a rock and a hard place. It's a shame, but it is true, and in part it is (at least in my experience) the female community's disdain for their mens' hobby that breeds the contention. It's like a bar, sort of; it's a place where a guy can vent about his wife/girlfriend, and where he can take out his frustrations with a few dice rolls and some imagination. You throw a female in there, and all of a sudden you've got one of the proverbial enemy in your midst. It is not always just uncomfortable for the female (though I personally am very comfortable, and would be happy to play a female player!).
I have to say, it is a real shame to see so many female players being shunned (and so rudely!! How dare people shove a woman over a game?!). What with the horror stories I've told, people ought to realize that any time a woman is brave enough to walk into this world it is a victory for the hobby, not a weakness.
Dan-e
08-24-2009, 04:06 AM
Ok i had an EX that was big into gaming, mostly RP and Board games, She loved watching me play 40k and would often talk during matches about what my plans were and would debate my tactics. She was like my second in command. Once in a while i would even let her play my army, but mind you it was rare.
One day i asked her why she didn't buy her own army and play herself? i mean i would have loved the chance to play against her. The only response i could get from her on the subject was that she didn't like how much it cost as she wouldn't be able to spend as much on Clothes and Make-Up and stuff. Now mind you this girl isn't really a "nerd" she would be more likely be associated with Rock-A-Billy/Pycho-Billy Music scenes or as my friends caledl her, "Hot Topic Chick".
Now most women aren't like this and i know a few guys who have Girl friends who play, most of them are SoB but a few like Orks. The few Orks players has a lot to do with Ska Music and the painting style of the orks, the checker patterns and stuff.
I think when you get down to it, it comes to the matter of how did the girl find out about GW games. Were they in the store looking at a bunch of Fatbeards playing around tables or was it the guy they knew for a long time keep talking about how COOL his army is or how badly he beat his last opposite? i would go on the record and say most girls who play are Girlfriends or Ex-Girlfriends and didn't know about the games before said boyfriend or Ex.
VinceBlack
08-24-2009, 04:15 AM
Answering EmperorEternalXIX post:
I can feel your pain and have seen some of this among some of my friends and their girlfriends/wives. Unfortunately this is more a problem of improper boundaries being placed at the formation of the relationship; just dubbing the women as psycho's is unfairly placing all the blame on the woman. To flip this idea ask yourself how many times you have seen a gamer friend of yours vanish like a thief in the night because he gets a new girlfriend and suddenly everything, gaming and friends in general, becomes insignificant in comparison to the girl. I have lost gamers and even a friend of over 15 years to this phenomenon. The goods are sweet and guy's will lose their minds especially if they have a rough time obtaining relationships.
Once the intensity of the relationship begins to simmer often you will see your friends emerge once again but with the problems that you described in your post. The issue again is not crazy GF's but women who in a way have been duped, are scorned, and act out in inappropriate ways. Remember 9 out of 10 times the guy all but walked away from gaming to spend time with her. He spends all his free time with her setting up an expectation that this is how things will be only to return to his gaming ways and leave her frustrated.
I haven't had any issues over all the years because I don't hide the fact that I am a gamer. Too often guys do this the women is taken by surprise to find the her man has a mistress that takes a considerable amount of time. Don't get me wrong I don't mention gaming on the first date but if things progress its right out in the open. They either accept me as a gamer or I move on to the next. Guys get so blinded by the "female goods" that they compromise themselves creating a mess for themselves down the road. Avoid the mess and put it all out there. Hiding or minimizing your involvement in gaming only creates situations like the ones you described. She either accepts you as a gamer 100% or she doesn't its your choice to stay with her or move on... and any guy who is married to a "psycho" or has kids with her made a bad choice so that's not an excuse either, there are no such thing as "accidents" with marriage or children only people who don't play it smart.
Anyhow I understand your frustration, women sometimes take gaming more personally than infidelity. Its hard for me to understand that, it must be their more emotional nature. in the case of my gaming group we don't drink, go to the clubs/strip clubs, and aren't getting into any trouble. Isn't that every girl's ideal set of friends for her boyfriend/husband? Again I shake my head every time one has to retire early or is unable to participate because ultimately he did it to himself.
eldargal
08-24-2009, 04:45 AM
EmperorEternal does raise a good point, but in my own personal experience it has been boys/men who have failed to say 'I'm a gamer, it is part of me, take it or leave it.' that have opened the door to such things. Not that I'm excusing women who try and force their boyfriend/husband to leave their hobby, not at all. We had one girl start coming along to our group with her boyfriend, and then basically trying to embaress him so much he would be too embaressed to return. We told him we knew what was going on and that he would always be welcome. Really though, Vinceblack makes a very sensible response, I don't have much more to add to it.
As to escapism, I can't speak for all girls but I play it to escape too. The GW fluff, both 40k and FB is some of the most interesting and engaging there is, in my opinion, and I love escaping to it.
So there are certainly women out there, I wouldn't say it is 1000 to one, who want to crush the hobby. they shouldn't be going out with/married to hobbyists if they feel that way.
I would prefer to keep this topic for discussion about girl gamers, as opposed to complaints from either side now that this point has been raised and discussed.:)
Kahoolin
08-24-2009, 04:58 AM
Re EmperorEternalXIX's post:
Wow. I wouldn't say any relationship where the guy is dumped/bullied for his hobby is a healthy relationship.
On the other hand, what's wrong with checking with your wife/girlfriend to make sure they don't mind you're playing? The guy who you said plays two weeks out of four, to me that doesn't read like his wife is dominating him, it reads like they have compromised, which is what good relationships are all about. I mean, you're meant to actually love your wife/girlfriend and enjoy spending time with them aren't you? Surely two weekends out of every month isn't too much for them to ask?
My girlfriend is not interested at all in GW games, and she hates me leaving GW crap all over the house :p, but she accepts that it's my hobby. In return I try not to bore her with constant warhammer stories, try to spend as much time with her as I do my hobby, and try not to blow all our money on models heh heh. It doesn't have to be a battle. It shouldn't have to be a battle, and I disagree that the games club should be a place of escape for men from their partners. That's not why I play at all, and if that is how some people see it then you're right, it's no wonder women feel like they aren't welcome.
DoctorEvil
08-24-2009, 07:14 AM
-Ego. A lot of boys can act very poorly to a girl entering their previously male-only group. It can make them uncomfortable, the idea of a girl beating them. They can often be extra obnoxious to the girl in a deliberate effort to drive them away. I was once slapped by my opponent during a local tournament match when I beat him (I broke his nose, but I don't go in tournaments anymore).
....hold on....you broke his nose? LOL...that's classic.....
But back to the topic...
One of the other factors is that in addition to being a male dominated hobby, the majority of of those males are from the "nerd" sub-species. I don't say that as an insult as a I proudly consider myself a nerd, but let's face it, in general nerds are not the most socially well adjusted examples of humanity. Most nerds tend to be uncomfortable in day-to-day social situations (unless they involved other nerds). So when you introduce a female into their nerd social club......well, it throws their delicate social balance complete out of whack. You'll have the "suave" Nerds trying to hit on her (even if it's obvious she's married), you'll have the "he-man, woman hating" Nerds being mean to her and making rude comments, you'll have the "shy" Nerds that can't make direct eye contact with her.......in short, it will be Nerd chaos.
Denzark
08-24-2009, 07:21 AM
Massively surprised to hear a chap hit a girl - he was lucky to just get his nose broken. I wouldn't mind females playing in any way shape or form. There is only one point I don't like about female interaction with 'the hobby': When they complain about how women are portrayed, particularly in fantasy. You get more complaints just because some character was portrayed in skimpy armour with huge lady bumps than you do about a chaos mass murdering warlord holding some slaanesh orgy or the inquisition commiting genocide by exterminatus.
This is not the PC real world it is the 41st millenium and there is only war. So welcome to it be you black, white, green, female, bent as a nine-bob note, old, (not too) young, 1, 2, bionic or no limbs: Just leave your poxy real life Political Correct bullacks at the door.
eldargal
08-24-2009, 07:37 AM
I do agree with you, of all things, skimpy armour is my least concern. It only bothers me when it is innapropriate for the setting, ie scantily clad female IG would be stupid given how IG look. For DE or other races where it is appropriate, I don't have a problem with it.
Massively surprised to hear a chap hit a girl - he was lucky to just get his nose broken. I wouldn't mind females playing in any way shape or form. There is only one point I don't like about female interaction with 'the hobby': When they complain about how women are portrayed, particularly in fantasy. You get more complaints just because some character was portrayed in skimpy armour with huge lady bumps than you do about a chaos mass murdering warlord holding some slaanesh orgy or the inquisition commiting genocide by exterminatus.
This is not the PC real world it is the 41st millenium and there is only war. So welcome to it be you black, white, green, female, bent as a nine-bob note, old, (not too) young, 1, 2, bionic or no limbs: Just leave your poxy real life Political Correct bullacks at the door.
ZenPaladin
08-24-2009, 08:01 AM
I am one of the fortunate few out there lucky enough to score a gamer girl for my significant other. I can't tell you how great it is to have someone who not only accepts my hobies but is an active participant in them. She was actualy introduced to gaming through her Ex back in california and started with Vampire larping I believe. Then she played a bit of Warmachine and saw some 40K.
When we became a couple she watched a few games and from the start I tried to encourage her to get a force and play with us. (more players and a more diverse army range is always good) We talked about the armies in brief and focused on which ones were not very well represented she decided that she liked the Dark Eldar and the Tyranids. Apon finding that the Dark Eldar were not very well suported she went for the bugs.
We have only played two games or so now and shes already shown an amazing ability to pick up on stratigy and ability synergy. And shes won both games. A doubles game with my Necrons and her Nids vs Mech Space Marine shootynes. And a one on one my Cron's vs her Nids in take and hold. She's also an active and talented painter. (and I am more than a little jellous of her skill and drive)
Next time I go to a tourny I fully expect her to be beside me and to kick my tail.
Yes I love showing off my gamer girl. I'm more than a little proud to call her my mine.
I'm also one of the gaming girls. I play Eldar (which I started with), and I play Black Templar. I do not play Fantasy or WotR/LotR at all. I do have an issue with some of the attitudes in one of the stores, which I won't get into, but other than that, most people here don't really care. I had one person at BoLSCon actually say they were HAPPY to see a female working the Con instead of it being totally guys. I think I was the only female for most of it, but I didn't play as I was up front helping with registration and yelling at people for not putting their teams on their scoresheets. :P
Put simply, boys are going to be boys. GW has geared things towards boys, and that's just how it goes. I don't like it or agree with it, but I work with it as best as I am able.
Chaos
08-24-2009, 08:20 AM
Every girl that i have met (that wouldnt stop talking to me for bringing it up) I have asked if they wanted to try the game out... nobody should have any problems with girls in gaming and if your trying to get away from your girlfriend/wife it really shouldnt matter unless your girlfriend/wife show up just to complain to you about it (it happened to me before...) But nobody should have a problem with it in my opinion
ThePov
08-24-2009, 08:53 AM
As a player, I've never really had a problem playing with/against girls, but I have noticed that the few I've seen do tend to be romantically involved with male gamers, though some played before said romantic involvement. I even got and ex into WHFB at one point (even bought her a Wood Elf battalion, which turned out to be a massive waste, but thats a whole other story). Don't know if she's still into it or not, as the local GW shut down soon after we broke up, but she was interested, at least.
One thing I've noticed about female gamers is that they tend to put a slightly heavier emphasis on the painting aspect of the hobby, for whatever reason. This is not to say they don't play the game, or that they aren't very good at the game, (I've had my *** handed to me by a girl many times in the past), just that I notice female gamers tend field a much greater percentage of fully painted armies than male gamers, and often to a better quality as well. If you ask me, thats one of the keys to getting girls into the game, to approach it from the more artistic aspect of painting and modelling first, as is at least more gender neutral than "IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE, THERE IS ONLY WAR!"
However, I do think there is a more passive way that girls tend to put down gamers than flat out attacking their significant others for playing, which then increases the male gamer's discomfort and disrespect toward them: stereotyping. Case in point, the old GW in this area used to be located in a fairly busy mall, so there were often packs of ditzy, "popular" teenage girls roving the mall and passing by. Every once in a while, one of these groups would enter the GW on a lark, look around at everything, take up all the Redshirt's time and attention with incesseant and stupid questions ("So are the Eel-dare supposed to be, like, pixies or something? *giggle*"), pick up every box on the wall and put half of them down in the wrong place, then walk out, giggling to themselves at how "nerdy" that store was, and go over to Claires or some other clothing store. Meanwhile, everybody in the store, female gamers included, are sitting around feeling uncomfortable. Games stopped, painting was impossible with that kind of inncesant noise, and no one could actually buy anything because the redshirt on duty had to attend to the ditzes for 10 minutes. It goes without saying that several deragotry comments would be made about the girls, their intelligence, and their sexual promescuity by the more immature customers in the GW, and then for about an hour everyone would feel really awkward and stupid. It's not the fact that girls were in the store, its the fact that the girls only came into the store to laugh at us. I am by no means implying that all girls who enter a GW are like this, but for us, it was a large enough percentage to detrimentally effect many of the regular's opinions of teenage girls in the store, and so many of them tried ot discourage any girls who walked into the store at all. Even when a new female player actually bought something, many of the regulars were unnconvinced that this was not an elaborate joke, that the girl wouldn't just come in one day with a bunch of pink-dipped Eldar or High Elves, play one game, then smash them on the floor, laugh, then run outside and merge into the nearest pack of ditzes.
In short, it's not the female gamers who giver male gamers bad opinions of girls, since they tend to be very cool and often smarter than many of the guys, but instead it's the kind of materialistic chick who snickers when you walk by carrying an army case that really hurts, which then makes the male gamers less receptive to females in general.
(Also, props to Eldargal for breaking that creep's nose. You hit anyone over a game, much less a girl, you deserve much worse than that)
Genecon had a 40k tourney running in one of the side rooms upstairs and I was shocked to see a lady playing Eldar. I have only known one other female table top gamer in my 24 years of gaming. I have played with more than a few RPG female gamers but it seems rare in the table top war games hobby. I have no problem with it at all and treat female gamers just like any other gamer.
I think the problem is that many of the young men in games shops are bit socially awkward to put it as nicely as possible. Now I know it is not all of you. Many like myself are married or have girlfriends but there is a large contingent that just does not know how to act around females. Instead of just treating them like any other gamer they either shy away or go over board the other way with attention etc and generally acting like buffoons. I see it all the time when girlfriends etc come into the gaming shop I go to because they serve food and coffee so sometimes girls come in that are not gamers and half the guys lose about 30 IQ points while they are there. :)
As my wife puts it most game shops and the guys in them are like garlic for a vampire to females. :p
Aldramelech
08-24-2009, 09:18 AM
My wife is the classic example of a "Wargames Widow". She has absolutely no interest in the hobby whatsoever.
She often says that if the house caught fire, Id rescue the figures first! lol
I have a ten year old daughter and she (so far) has shown 0 interest also.
This is not a bad thing. If they did join in Id have to share my toys! Its healthy I think to have separate interests from your partner and gaming is my thing. Shoes, Handbags and "Trashy magazines" are hers (her words not mine! lol)
Having said all that I would like to see more females involved in the hobby, from a club point of view it would be good to have some good old fashioned female common sense sometimes and an increase might go some way to shaking the nerdy image gaming as a whole suffers from.
I tend to get on better with women and have far more female friends then male, if only I could persuade them to pick up a paint brush.
Aldramelech
08-24-2009, 09:22 AM
LotR. Our new girl got hooked on the hobby through the LotR system, before moving to WFB before she joined and 40k after. When she told us this a couple of the boys scoffed and one made some comment implying that she was just here because of the films and wasn't a proper gamer.
What a crap, immature attitude!
If you asked why people got involved in gaming Id bet there would be thousands of different answers, Why wouldn't the above reason be a valid one?
Some people.............
Culven
08-24-2009, 09:38 AM
I have known very few women involved in the hobby, and those I have known tend to be related to or in a relationship with a gamer. I think that this is more indicative of the fact that most gaming is outside the realm of experience of most girls/women. I can't speak as to why gaming has been more appealing to males, but I think that it may have something to do with males typically being more competative. Though, that could be an entire thread of its own.
Basically, I think it is just an issue of women not being exposed to wargames in general, so having never developed an interest in it.
Drew da Destroya
08-24-2009, 10:01 AM
Back when I was getting back into 40k, I was drumming up support with a couple of my friends (so I could have regular opponents, of course!). I'd been showing my then (now ex) girlfriend about it a bit, but didn't really expect her to get into it. She's now started Dark Eldar, Necron, and Daemon armies, and plays against a friend of mine. We kept on pretty good terms, but she moved away, so I haven't been able to play against her very often.
My current girlfriend has known about my gaming habit since pretty early on. I ask her for advice when building my models, and she pretty regularly encourages me to actually paint my models. She's shown some interest in Tyranids, but for the most part has her own expensive, time-consuming hobby to work on: http://www.cosplay.com/costumes/m51751/. I'll work on her, though... maybe buy her a box of Warriors at some point.
KnightShift
08-24-2009, 10:40 AM
I've never had the pleasure of playing a lass... but I would very much welcome it just as I welcome playing anyone who enjoys this game. And that should be anyone who takes a liking to it.
The way I see it, Warhammer 40K has plenty to cater to just about ANYONE. I've tinkered around with four different armies and now am building up a nice-sized Ork faction. Why? 'Cuz Orks most match my twisted sense of humor :D That's the key to getting the most out of 40K, more than most other games even. The emphasis should be more on the character of the different factions and less on the "guns and power"... which, let's face it, does become boring after awhile.
Play up the unique persona of each of the various armies though, and you will have something that appeals to just about everybody :)
The Girl
08-24-2009, 11:48 AM
The number one reason people quit and swear off Warhammer is for the sake of a relationship.
I seriously doubt that. I could go on a long rant to counter your argument, but will limit it to this: if the hobby is important to you, you need to have a discussion with the woman you're with about it. If she can't deal with it, it's a sign you may need to move on. This depends on how important the hobby is to you, and how willing both parties are to compromise. A romantic relationship takes 2 people... don't throw all of this on the woman, it's completely unfair. Unless she's a mind controlling zombie queen, or she's embedded a chip in your brain that zaps you any time you do something she doesn't like... then you get a free pass.
That aside: I started playing because I work in an indie retailer that sells GW. I wouldn't have known about the hobby otherwise. Seems I'm lucky to play here... the guys have been willing to take me on as a newbie player and don't treat me as if I'm a pariah. The few women that play at my store have also been pretty readily accepted. This isn't to say that I don't have to prove myself to customers everyday b/c some folks assume that women that work in game stores are hired to be eye candy... that we don't know the products we sell, let alone play games.
[insert a long rant about societal expectations, product marketing, and gender branding here]
My girl plays some 40K with me every once in awhile. I have to guide her through it, but I admire the effort. She's not a gamer and has no desire to be one, but she sees how happy 40K makes me so she encourages it. I suppose I'm lucky. I'm not afraid to put my foot down if it's called for, thankfully it's an extremely rare occurrence. 40K is more of a 'guys night out' with that occasional girl that can 'hang with the boys'. :cool:
rabscutle
08-24-2009, 12:48 PM
You have neglected a key element of the gaming world: escapism.
I can't tell you how many of us go play these games for the very reason than to escape the female oppression in our lives and relationships. Myself included. My last girlfriend hated the game, hated how much I liked it (and often accused me of liking it more than her because I discussed it with my friends, or would not leave in the middle of games to go sit in my car outside her house with her doing nothing, etc). She hated that I did it at all and found it hugely annoying.
This always bothered me, and I have noticed many other men in the same position.
The groups I play 40K with have guys who often can't come because their wives/girlfriends gave them a hard time. We meet once a week on Sunday afternoons and the place we play closes early, guaranteeing everyone will be out and off to do whatever other things they need to without a hitch (i.e. there is never a "sorry honey the game ran later than expected..." situation at our club). Yet still many times I have heard people arguing with their significant others.
Okay, never mind that you undercut your own argument to say you just love playing with women at the end of the post...
I used to date a woman just like that. She drew me away from the game and made me feel awful for liking the hobby. It was a rough time and I thought I had found someone that mattered to me. We broke up eventually over unrelated things, and I finally went back to gaming.
You know what I learned from that experience? That Women are evil and suck the life out of gamers and should be avoided at all costs?
HELL NO... it is simple, and if you don't understand it, I weep for how horrible your relationships must be. If your hobbies are important to you, if they are something that makes your life more full and gives you that wonderful stress release, and your partner seems to be crushing your joy... DATE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Having similar interests is extremely important. If you are the kind of person that paints their face to go to football games, your partner better be at least understanding of your love for your favorite team. If you are someone that wants to play games, your mate better be understanding of it. It is even better if they also find the hobbies you like enjoyable.
And if you have a brain, you realized I wasn't specifying gender in that paragraph. It goes both ways.
Women should be more than welcome at the gaming table for the same reason that men should be: they are a person and if they find their joy rolling dice, they should be able to do so.
EmperorEternalXIX
08-24-2009, 01:00 PM
I seriously doubt that. I could go on a long rant to counter your argument, but will limit it to this: if the hobby is important to you, you need to have a discussion with the woman you're with about it. If she can't deal with it, it's a sign you may need to move on. This depends on how important the hobby is to you, and how willing both parties are to compromise. A romantic relationship takes 2 people... don't throw all of this on the woman, it's completely unfair. Unless she's a mind controlling zombie queen, or she's embedded a chip in your brain that zaps you any time you do something she doesn't like... then you get a free pass. Firstly, it's worth noting: I know my remarks seem sexist, but I am saying this only because it is a fact of my experience. I know my post was very long, but I gave, what...half a dozen examples of people whose warhammer is ruined because of an unrelenting spouse or significant other who completely belittles the hobby? I think my horror stories speak for themselves, really.
There are really only three reasons people "quit" that I've seen; can't afford it anymore (rare), upset with the game's direction (rarer still...most just play the old rules as they prefer), and...women, be it by force or by coercion. Such as one of the victims I detailed earlier, who has to ask his wife before he comes to play. She doesn't "not support" it, but in classic female fashion, she simply makes it very difficult to be dedicated to it. Same with the girl who makes my friend keep his stuff under the bed and checks his bank statements to make sure he hasn't bought anything. She doesn't prevent him from playing, just makes sure that he is sufficiently hindered that it isn't worth doing. Or my other friend whose wife intentionally calls him during games and got him canned from that tournament -- I don't think he's finished a game since he got married last year.
Between that, and the other stories of girls coming into mall GWs and mocking people, is it any wonder that women are not welcome at these places? In fact I would go so far as to say that the reason these places have such a brotherly camaraderie is precisely because it is a sort of bulwark against the feminine oppression the general 40k audience all seems to have dealt with (whether you are a disrespected or jilted husband, a live-in boyfriend, or a guy like me who is just not handsome enough for the generally shallow females I've dealt with to treat me like a human being, heh).
The problem is more with relationships than with female gamers themselves, of course. My club is all guys who wouldn't even know how to speak to a girl, let alone belittle her. We are all fans of the game and the people who play it don't concern us -- if someone was a jerk, we would just make it our mission in life to smash them from the tabletop over and over again.
I find some of the rudeness the female gamers have been met with to be totally appalling. I'm not a chivalrous person by any stretch and I think half the worlds' problems might be solved if women were really men's equals socially speaking (on both the good and bad parts...). If any of you are in the Boston area, I invite you to come play with my group -- nobody will treat you that way there, and we can use more players (there's only six of us atm...)!
I think it's funny that people are assuming that I have been in these horrible relationships, or that I would just as soon give up the hobby because someone told me to. Would that it were so simple, but it isn't. If you are living with a woman, or have a child with someone, or are married...you can't just go "I know this makes you mad but I'm going to do it anyway." Sometimes the situation is more complicated than that.
As for me...I'm 26...and when a girl has a problem with what I do, I tell her she can take a walk. I'm still young!
Women should be more than welcome at the gaming table for the same reason that men should be: they are a person and if they find their joy rolling dice, they should be able to do so. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm not saying that the whole situation with female gamers is as it should be -- it is horrible that women are treated like pariahs in the gaming environment, just like it is when they are ostracized in other male-exclusive environments!! All I was getting at is, the number one predator of war gaming (at least as far as I've seen) has been vindictive female indoctrination.
It's not right, but there is definitely a cause to the effect, at least in my experiences anyway. I would like to see the paradigm broken, not further enabled!
Guys, I'm getting some pokes for questionable posts in this thread. Keep it clean. Keep it polite. No flaming wars. Please. :)
ZenPaladin
08-24-2009, 01:19 PM
I just wanted to go on record as saying that the Emperor has a point. SOME women are manipulative and controling just as SOME men are. And unfortunatly a lot of the people who play these games are ripe for the kind of manipulation and out right social bulling that these types can put out.
Its easy for a mature and experianced adult to say if you don't share my hobbies take a hike. But for a young man with his first girlfriend is she says drop the game or we are through it can be difficult if not imposible for him to say then get lost sweetheart 40K is more fun than you.
Even worse many of these people might feel like the pressure they are bringing is a good thing. That they are helping their significant other break their adiction to childish/abnormal/expensive persuites. Heck some of em might even be right!
EmperorEternalXIX
08-24-2009, 01:36 PM
ZenPaladin makes my points in a much more concise and sociably acceptable way. Forgive me, BoLS Loungers -- I come from the Press, and to be incendiary is my default setting, heh.
There is another side, too. I earned myself a pretty poor reputation when I told a local girl we couldn't get involved because she belittled my hobby so much. She was REALLY rude, worse than most, she flat out told me I was a giant loser and that she couldn't believe I ever had a girlfriend or friends. At a point, I just broke things off, and my reason was "you are very disrespectful of my hobbies and clearly don't respect my decisions"...but this led to a whole sect of local girls being told that I was, quote, "a little f****t who would rather play with little toys than be with a girl...not like he would know what to do with one anyway!"
It led to a nightmare in which I was assailed constantly about it for weeks.
I wish it were as simple as saying "this is what I do, respect it please." But it usually isn't, and rarely is.
The Girl
08-24-2009, 02:11 PM
There are really only three reasons people "quit" that I've seen; can't afford it anymore (rare), upset with the game's direction (rarer still...most just play the old rules as they prefer), and...women, be it by force or by coercion.
In my experience it's been lack of money, followed by lack of time due to college/work and becoming disenchanted with the game. I've yet to see anyone totally walk because their spouse or girlfriend pushed them to it. Obviously, the things you've seen are different. Neither one of us can really give a certain #1 reason why players choose to leave.
Such as one of the victims I detailed earlier, who has to ask his wife before he comes to play. She doesn't "not support" it, but in classic female fashion, she simply makes it very difficult to be dedicated to it.
"Classic female fashion"? I'm failing to see how remarks like this, and several others you have made in this thread, aren't sexist. I won't make assumptions about what has led you to have the attitude you have towards women, and I don't care... but at least call it what it is. Don't try to excuse it, or make it seem less than what it is.
As you've said, you're young... two things go with this: you have time to meet women that are different from those you've mentioned in the thread, and you have time to unlearn this attitude.
Would that it were so simple, but it isn't. If you are living with a woman, or have a child with someone, or are married...you can't just go "I know this makes you mad but I'm going to do it anyway." Sometimes the situation is more complicated than that.
This is where discussion and compromise comes in to play... things you find in healthy, adult relationships. If something is really important to you, you should talk about it and come to some sort of compromise. Never claimed it was easy, relationships are work, just that it's not 100% on the woman's or the man's shoulders. It's called a partnership for a reason.
gwensdad
08-24-2009, 02:28 PM
(And now, relationship advise from someone who only really had a handful of girlfriends, but is married and has a little girl so there)
There's one possible trick to finding a girl who will "put up" with the hobby-find one with there own "thing". Case in point-my wife has a large comic collection, some ladies I know on sci-fi forum (link plug (http://forum.galacticwatercooler.com/index.php)) are, well, big sci-fi fans. As long as you can find time for each other, work, school, and that option known as "sleep", both parties can enjoy their hobbies, enjoy-um-each other, and blahblahblahblah (cut off due to oversickingly sweetness possible. Maybe I'll go paint up those last 2 servitors now while the wife writes some DCU fanfic)
Denzark
08-24-2009, 02:46 PM
I view the following as facts:
1. Our hobby is thought of by, if not the majority of those who encounter, at least a large proportion, as one for geeks and nerds.
2. Geeks and nerds attract bullying.
3. With regards to Brit kids, males tend to physically bully, whereas females tend to go for the whole mental twisting thing - the expression 'bunny boiling snakes with t*ts' didn't come from thin air.
4. Whilst I (a 30 yo) work with youth and my wife is a teacher, so can attest to the above, I don't know about the States. However Hollywood seems to imply through various films that there is a massive clique-y 'in crowd' vibe who attack geeks (ie us!) in the way Emperor mentions - anyone seen Buffy recently?
So I think, whilst Emperor may have couched what he is saying in a way offensive to some, I am sure he is actually giving truthful examples, not trying to be a mysoginist dinosaur.
I haven't seen a post actually saying women in gmaing is a bad idea - for men who are actualy escapism junkies I am suire the group/circle they normally game in is mostly males by choice but in a shop/tournament I hope they would be welcoming.
I believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I would hope (as a gentleman) that a group of male gamers would make a female welcome out of sheer politeness. But if you want to join a games group the needs of the many come into play - you need to adapt to them if you expect to join. So a female (or anyone) would need to be extra tolerant of the existing group and give them more leeway then they would give her.
Drunkencorgimaster
08-24-2009, 03:12 PM
-- I come from the Press, and to be incendiary is my default setting, heh.
Not only that, you are also from Boston...;)
DoctorEvil
08-24-2009, 05:22 PM
Such as one of the victims I detailed earlier, who has to ask his wife before he comes to play. She doesn't "not support" it, but in classic female fashion, she simply makes it very difficult to be dedicated to it.
As a married guy, I too have to ask for "permission" whenever I want to play. Here's the thing....I know I don't have to really ask "permission", I can play whenever I want to. But when I got married (to the woman of my dreams), I took on certain responsibilities that I didn't have before. A mortage, saving for retirement, children. etc.....all things that as a single guy, I never really thought of. So now I had to balance playing my "games" versus the importance of the other things. Quite honestly, when it comes down to spending a weekend with my wife & kids vs. spending it with a bunch of sweaty nerds....the wife & kids tend to win. That's a choice I gladly made when I got married.
Now, from the perspective of the guys at the LGS....The Doctor is totally whipped :). He's ALWAYS got to ask "permission" from his wife to play, and doesn't seem to ever be able to get it!!!! So, yes, I use my wife as the "bad guy" when don't play. I'm sure the guys at the LGS use the same quote as above to describe my situation...but it's not really accurate, because I choose my priorities.
Honestly, my wife is not 100% supportive of my hobby either. She thinks the money could go to better things, but until she gives up manicures & pedicures, well she doesn't have a leg to stand on :)
EmperorEternalXIX
08-24-2009, 05:45 PM
Quite honestly, when it comes down to spending a weekend with my wife & kids vs. spending it with a bunch of sweaty nerds....the wife & kids tend to win. That's a choice I gladly made when I got married. This is the kind of stereotype that causes the problems which led to this thread being created...
I suppose your point is valid but it must assume my friend has the choice, or the desire, to spend time with the family or otherwise. Suppose the opposite is true, and suddenly it is not so innocent or so willing a choice.
Not everyone who says "My wife told me I can't play this week" is just using her as an excuse to dodge the game. It's likely a 50/50 thing, but again I'd be remiss to point out...even if it were just counting myself, I would be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time a lady in my life said with a degree of palpable annoyance, "You're going to play that game AGAIN? Didn't you just play it?"
I wish the gaming world was more open to females overall. One fellow I met recently has his whole family in on the deal, and has a very close relationship with his daughter and son because of Warhammer. It can be a great boon for family life when used properly.
Bottom line, it is about how respectful you are to the LGS and your group. I personally would be pretty offended if I found out someone had been lying to us about his wife forcing him to not play, to avoid fraternizing with us "sweaty nerds."
Not only that, you are also from Boston... heh, yes...we're not known for our tactfulness in this dump, hehe.
Savark
08-24-2009, 06:08 PM
@ emperor:
I'm only 14 yet i completely agree with you. i can see it right now...
eldargal
08-24-2009, 06:21 PM
To be honest I think Emperor has some fair points, but they are more to do with relationships (as someone has said already) that female gamers. One of my good friends was hassled to give up the hobby because her boyfriend 'didn't like her hanging around a bunch of geeky boys' without him, and he didn't want to play himself. Given that there is a disproportionate amount of male gamers there will of course be a disproportionate amount of harrying women
How would you go about increasing the amount of female gamers, and do you think there is more GW could do to help? (if you trust their corporate office not to make things worse some how, hehe)
Mike X
08-24-2009, 06:29 PM
Not only that, you are also from Boston...;)
Hey! So am I!
But back on topic... I've had two exs who played 40K: one played Witch Hunters, the other played Chaos Space Marines.
...And I had a third girl I was seeing for a few months that was interested in starting an Eldar army.
BlacknightIII
08-24-2009, 06:34 PM
My Ex played orks (and was big on yelling WAAAGH!!! every game). Course since shes an ex shes no longer seen or heard from at the store, the other girl who plays witch hunters is very obnoxious and not very much fun to play against. Ive convinced quite a few girls to play and actually most of them that do play enjoy the game very much, they just get annoyed and sometime driven away by most of the guys who seem to think of women as some sort of alien species.
ThePov
08-24-2009, 06:38 PM
How would you go about increasing the amount of female gamers, and do you think there is more GW could do to help? (if you trust their corporate office not to make things worse some how, hehe)
Well, I think it's all in how one explains the game to the female in question at the very beginning. As I said earlier, I think upping the emphasis on the more gender-neutral areas of painting, modeling, and the mythology aspect (40K and Fantasy are, after all, mythologies in and of themselves, but with interesting conections to and unique takes on other established mythologies) is key when trying to explain the game to a girl. This is not to say that the painting, modelling, and story areas are "girlly" aspects to the hobby, just that they are less intimidating and competitive than the gaming aspect. If the person doing the explaining is tactful and doesn't go on and on about how cool the robots and guns are, I think there are quite a few girls who are big on fantasy and/or sci-fi who who would likely be interested and might take the plunge into a miniature gaming hobby.
One of the biggest problems I see is that established players explaining the game to new players are most often male and explain the game from a more male-oriented perspective. There is plenty of room in the hobby for more female gamers, but I think many get turned away by a bad explanation at the very beginning that doesn't quite show them the less macho parts of the game.
As for GW, female models might help, but then again, they may not, what with crazy modellers/painters. Beyond that, if they would make a concerted effort to hire more female redshirts, it would probably not hurt.
gwensdad
08-24-2009, 07:03 PM
How would you go about increasing the amount of female gamers, and do you think there is more GW could do to help? (if you trust their corporate office not to make things worse some how, hehe)
I may take Space Hulk into work and give demos when it comes out (Last time I checked, we had a 8:1 F/M ratio, unfortunately we're closing down and I'm not sure what that is now, or if I'll even be on the schedule after Sept 5th)
With a little more time my daughter will SERVE THE EMPEROR (or lead a Waaargh, it's more like her), but that's still a few years away. GW could help out by more
1) employing more women sculpters
2) more focus in White Dwarf on women employees (I'll admit, I was shocked in that they gave painter Anya(?) a feature a few issues ago)
3) more female employees at the stores
4) Less "cheesecake" female miniatures and more realistic ones (may happen if point 1 happens)
5) Get the Twilight license (I KID! I KID! But maybe a Harry Potter Quidditch game, similar to Blood Bowl)
And unfortunately, society has to change a little. A few years ago my I-mention-her-too-much daughter put on some Superman pajamas she had demanded from us and had me take a picture of her, which I posted to my blog. The first comment I had questioned how good a parent I was for dressing my child in "boy's clothing" and creating the "wrong" examples for a girl. And this was coming from a woman I had known almost 20 years (God I'm old). If someone has a problem with her being a comic book character fan, what will they think about being a fan of some game?
Katie Drake
08-24-2009, 07:04 PM
I'm one of the rare female gamers too and like all the others that have posted in this thread, I've had more than my fair share of issues all because of my gender when it comes to gaming. Once a guy grabbed my rear when I was leaning over the table trying to move my Razorback, so I had to backhand him in the face so hard that he lost a couple teeth.
Seriously, what's a girl to do in such a situation? ;) :p
Commissar Lewis
08-24-2009, 07:07 PM
Honestly, I don't know why there aren't more females GW gamers. I suppose the reason is something valid, but I slept through psych in high school and when it comes to the big pictures my eye sight ain't the best.
That said, I been hoping to meet an awesome chick that plays 40k. Since given that up, at this moment looks like an uphill battle.
And Eldargal, you were slapped by a jackass at a tourny? Damn, if I saw some guy slap a chick at a tournament, I'd knock his *** out. Chivalry FTW. Glad you broke his nose, though.
I do hope more chicks start playing GW games; the ratio in the stores are terrible.
Mike X
08-24-2009, 07:19 PM
That said, I been hoping to meet an awesome chick that plays 40k. Since given that up, at this moment looks like an uphill battle.
I've found that it's easier to get chicks into 40K than it is find a chick already into it.
Drew da Destroya
08-24-2009, 07:20 PM
Seriously, what's a girl to do in such a situation? ;) :p
I'd say backhand him hard enough that he loses a couple teeth. "Break his nose" and "Sexual Harassment Lawsuit" are also appropriate answers.
I mean, really, there's no real reason to sexually harass someone (well, no good reason) of any gender. And it's guys like that who give the rest of us (not just guy gamers, but males in general) a bad image.
As far as getting more girls into the hobby, I've found that showing them pictures of well painted or converted models seems to work. Taps into the more artistic aspects of the hobby. I also try to include my girlfriend when I'm building models, asking her how my conversion is coming along, listening to her suggestions, etc...
Commissar Lewis
08-24-2009, 07:34 PM
I've found that it's easier to get chicks into 40K than it is find a chick already into it.
Haha, true, brother, true.
Morgrim
08-24-2009, 08:03 PM
One thing I've noted in this thread, and one I find sad, is that most of the females have had to resort to physical violence because of males hitting/shoving/groping them.
I guess I've had an easier time than many because I'm not a curvy female. This reduces the sexual harassment markedly. I'm also a nerd myself, and have been studying science for quite a few years at uni, so am actually most comfortable in a male heavy environment. <.< I did have one teenage brat wave his Inquistor at me and say he was going to purge me as a foul and heretical xeno for daring defile the store, but two of the Redshirts threatened to kick him out. <.<
It is annoying when some people assume that my boyfriend plays and I'm there because of him. Sorry, I've never had a boyfriend that supported the hobby. One was even firmly against it.
Kahoolin
08-24-2009, 08:03 PM
How would you go about increasing the amount of female gamers, and do you think there is more GW could do to help? (if you trust their corporate office not to make things worse some how, hehe)I think the main problem with trying to get women into the hobby from GW's perspective is how to do it without reducing their current audience. Let's face it, I'm pretty sure Rick Priestley and Jervis when they wrote WHFB in the 80's weren't trying to build a game with a strong business model that appealed to all markets. They were trying to write a game that they and their mates thought was fun.
So the reason GW games appeal mostly to guys is because that was how they were designed. I'd say I've only ever met one or two guys in my entire life (I'm 31) who didn't think GW games seemed fun. Most of them were too lazy/poor to play it, but they all thought it seemed cool. GW games are pure male escapist fantasy in a world where there isn't that much of it around any more. GW would have to be very careful about changing anything about their games to bring in females. They'd have to know they would be getting more females than the males who would lose interest if it became less . . . male :)
I would be very surprised to meet a female GW gamer who had no brothers when she was growing up or a partner or ex who introduced her, and who had discovered and stuck with the hobby completely on her own. I think the way the games are (40k in particular), the themes and everything, are so male fantasy oriented that a girl would have to understand the mind set of guys just to comprehend them, let alone enjoy them.
eldargal
08-24-2009, 08:11 PM
Absolutely, the LAST thing I would want to see is GW change their games to appeal more to any audience. Heck I still get snitchy about Necrons (and don't get me started on Tau...:p). What I mean is what marketing strategies could GW use to raise the hobbies profile amongst girls. I think it is a good time to do it now that the 'geek girl' seems to have gone mainstream, as it were.
I think the main problem with trying to get women into the hobby from GW's perspective is how to do it without reducing their current audience. Let's face it, I'm pretty sure Rick Priestley and Jervis when they wrote WHFB in the 80's weren't trying to build a game with a strong business model that appealed to all markets. They were trying to write a game that they and their mates thought was fun.
So the reason GW games appeal mostly to guys is because that was how they were designed. I'd say I've only ever met one or two guys in my entire life (I'm 31) who didn't think GW games seemed fun. Most of them were too lazy/poor to play it, but they all thought it seemed cool. GW games are pure male escapist fantasy in a world where there isn't that much of it around any more. GW would have to be very careful about changing anything about their games to bring in females. They'd have to know they would be getting more females than the males who would lose interest if it became less . . . male :)
I would be very surprised to meet a female GW gamer who had no brothers when she was growing up or a partner or ex who introduced her, and who had discovered and stuck with the hobby completely on her own. I think the way the games are (40k in particular), the themes and everything, are so male fantasy oriented that a girl would have to understand the mind set of guys just to comprehend them, let alone enjoy them.
Mike X
08-24-2009, 08:12 PM
One thing I've noted in this thread, and one I find sad, is that most of the females have had to resort to physical violence because of males hitting/shoving/groping them.
I guess I've had an easier time than many because I'm not a curvy female. This reduces the sexual harassment markedly. I'm also a nerd myself, and have been studying science for quite a few years at uni, so am actually most comfortable in a male heavy environment. <.< I did have one teenage brat wave his Inquistor at me and say he was going to purge me as a foul and heretical xeno for daring defile the store, but two of the Redshirts threatened to kick him out. <.<
It is annoying when some people assume that my boyfriend plays and I'm there because of him. Sorry, I've never had a boyfriend that supported the hobby. One was even firmly against it.
Well, see, most of the girls I date are geeky, and most of them are curvy (read: busty with a booty), and they usually let guys feel them up to begin with, so they don't suffer harassment because they consent.
And I'm the non-jealous type, so I couldn't really care less either.
Kahoolin
08-24-2009, 08:32 PM
Absolutely, the LAST thing I would want to see is GW change their games to appeal more to any audience. Heck I still get snitchy about Necrons (and don't get me started on Tau...:p)Aww, I like the Tau. Necrons seem a bit lame to me though I have to admit...
Mike X
08-24-2009, 08:40 PM
Aww, I like the Tau. Necrons seem a bit lame to me though I have to admit...
I love all the races and factions in 40K, except for Chaos Daemons because they make no friggin' sense fluff-wise.
I also hated Squats, but GW remedied that!
KnightShift
08-24-2009, 10:10 PM
I love all the races and factions in 40K, except for Chaos Daemons because they make no friggin' sense fluff-wise.
Chaos Daemons are on a whole 'nother metaphysical level. They're not supposed to be understood by anyone in the mortal realm. And then the Warp goes all screwy and they wind up imposing on our plane of reality anyway and that's where the problems start...
Sorta like Cthulhu in the Lovecraft stories. Most people who gaze upon him go insane. Chaos is definitely evil, but an entirely different wild extreme of evil than can be readily comprehended, with its own motivations that can't even sincerely be guessed at. The Chaos Space Marines and others who fall under Chaos' sway are limited in their understanding of Chaos by their own carnal desires... when in truth they are in WAY over their heads more than they possibly know!
BuFFo
08-24-2009, 11:06 PM
I love all the races and factions in 40K, except for Chaos Daemons because they make no friggin' sense fluff-wise.
Agreed.
I also hated Squats, but GW remedied that!
I didn't know an 7 year old could hate an army so much :)
Phoenikuz
08-24-2009, 11:11 PM
Personally, I think that women in gaming is something that's just going to happen eventually. I mean, there's no point in GW attempting to engineering genderspecific marketing just for the sake of getting girls to game. It'll happen all by itself.
Just look at online gaming; no special care has been taken to get women into gaming; they do it all by their own accord, once they figure that it's worth spending time on :)
Of course; giving Redshirts and Outriders some social skills when it comes to women - i.e. having them learn not to treat them as an inferior or weird species - would be a big step forward. But that's hardly marketing; just good common business sense ;)
... I don't get why Daemons are such a big deal, fluffwise? But that's a topic for another thread.
Denzark
08-25-2009, 12:29 AM
Hang on a sec....
We quite clearly forgot GW already markets armies directly targeting girls.
TAU? All that 'Greater good' malarkey? clearly for girls.
And if you don't think Dark Eldar is aimed at bondage mistresses, just remember how they whine like biatches about not having had a new codex - I detect clear girly attributes every time they open their mouths...
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PS this is a humour warning if you don't take this as a joke.
ducki3x
08-25-2009, 01:17 AM
I think a couple of key components have already been referenced above, but I'll weigh in with my $0.02.
1) Promote the creative side of the hobby - painting & converting - before the actual game. Guide them towards minis that they will enjoy working on, and then maybe an interest in the gameplay will follow.
2) Make stores more inviting to women, including hiring more women to work there & generally losing the whole Android's Dungeon vibe (I'm looking at you, scummy, dirty indie store down the street).
3) Tone down the hyper-agressive macho crap. I'm not talking about smacktalk or playing to win; I'm talking about using rape as a metaphor for dominant victory and tossing around racial & sexual ephithets ad infinitum. Again, more a problem with indie stores than the GW corporate ones in my experience.
4) While I don't think that the inclusion of more female minis is critical, I also don't think it could hurt, provided that the figures are army/race appropriate and are well sculpted.
Keep in mind that these suggestions are intended to make the hobby seem more inviting to women with mild-to-moderate geeky tendancies and who may (or may not) have someone nudging them into the hobby, not those who wouldn't give it a second thought no matter how much you tried...
imperialsavant
08-25-2009, 04:23 AM
:) G'day eldargirl!
We have had a couple of girls/woman in our Club & enjoyed playing against them. Both were great painters & had a good grasp on the game & tactics. One was about 18 yoa & the other in her 20s. There was never any angist or problems. Sadly they both ended up moving to larger Towns closer to Sydney.
We now have a new girl coming with here with her boyfriend & she is also a extremely good painter & is also working on a Eldar Army.
I belong to the Yahoo Battle Sisters Group & there are a few female members & they are great contributors to the Group & one plays regularly in Tourneys & has never given any indication that she has faced any
hassels, then again she probably would not have complained if she had!
We had one group member Cannoness Athena who was a real 'Hoot" & used to get the boys stirred up in a real nice way. Didnt she do some great painting.
Ulag Grimskar
08-25-2009, 06:17 AM
Well, as for me, the first ever Fantasy store I went to was run by a woman (a good-looking one as well) and a friend of hers, also female.
The first guy I encountered working there was said friends new boyfriend, who she met at some convention. So my first steps into the world of RPG and Tabletop-Wargaming were guided by two women. That also happened back when I was about 10, and I guess influenced my whole attitude towards women in gaming.
Also, while I was working for GW a couple of years back, tehre were realtivley few women coming regularly, but those that were were widely accepted and obviously quite skilled at putting people ranting at them in their places (after all, I never had to intervene even once). There was even one instance where one of the girls hooked her BOYFRIEND to gaming! And on the discussion of the supportive or not-so-much significant others, most of the wifes/ girlfriends avoided the store somewhat, but I never had the impression that any one of them was trying to get their husbands/ boyfriends to quit the game.
That being said, up to now I managed to make all my girlfriends paint at least one miniature, and only in one case has this been my idea. Just showing how much fun painting can be made them interested. I have also never hidden my minis, I put them on display rather proudly. Not being a bad painter might also have helped generating interest.... :p
Anyway, as someone said earlier, women also got into online-gaming a lot, and did so without serious effort by the gaming companies, as far as I can tell. The Nintendo Wii would be a good example of something considered "male" (i.e. videogames) being advertised especially to women, but I don´t think "Warhammer 40Fit" would be a big hit now, would it;)?
Including more female staff on the other hand might be the way to go, and I know of at least two women being blackshirts and managing german GWs, and at least three female Mailorder-Trolls, all dedicated hobbyists, more dedicated than at least half the males I know.
The stuff said about more female minis as long as they are appropriate, fluff-wise, I´d second! There´s so much talk in the fluff about females, Inquisitors, Battle Sisters, the female members of Gaunt´s Ghosts to just name a few. Also, the farseers in DoW are all female, yet there´s not even a single female farseer in the- how many? 5 or so?- farseers produces by GW.
Damn, sorry, thats become a long post....
But before I forget: Kudos to Eldargal for bringing this up (and breaking that jerk´s nose....)! It´s a well neglected, yet very interesting and significant topic, imho!
I'd say that one of the biggest problems relating to women trying to break into the war gaming world is the defensiveness of most people involved with the hobby. Think of it this way, I'm a pretty average guy in most respects but I wouldn't dream of telling people about my hobby. I am a professional, I have a degree from a renowned university, I rowed for a competitive club, I'm well-read, but the only thing anyone pays attention to is my hobby. I'm a zit-faced, poorly-groomed, shy, stammering, mother's-basement-dwelling, low life until proven otherwise and it's the same for most every other gamer. Is it any wonder that gamers are defensive?
Now we can say such assumptions shouldn't matter but they do. Our culture is obsessed with appearance, just look at how much time your buddies spend tweaking their profiles in Myspace or Facebook. They aren't changing themselves, they're trying to change how others view them. I try not to let people's opinion bother me but it certainly puts me on the defensive. The LGS I've been to are full of people who want to play (obviously) but also trying to relax in one place where they aren't getting crap for their hobby. Notice how most people get along inside your LGS despite having different hobbies, (Magic, D&D, 40k), different ages, and different backgrounds? It's because you've got one common enemy, everyone outside the LGS.
This phenomenon hurts female gamers because, in most cases, you're another perceived outsider. You're another person that these guys have to justify themselves to. Obviously there is a lot more in the mix than defensiveness but when that particular emotion is added to the typical mix of shyness or insecurity and you have a recipe for a very uncomfortable encounter for both sides.
A couple of women have posted here, I'd bet that most of them could point to this in their own experience.
Aldramelech
08-25-2009, 11:23 AM
I think we're all a bit guilty of being a bit "Full on" about the hobby as well. A polite inquiry about the game is not an invitation to go on for 10 hours about how great it is. This would put anybody off regardless of gender.
Gotthammer
08-25-2009, 11:47 AM
... generally losing the whole Android's Dungeon vibe (I'm looking at you, scummy, dirty indie store down the street).
3) Tone down the hyper-agressive macho crap. I'm not talking about smacktalk or playing to win; I'm talking about using rape as a metaphor for dominant victory and tossing around racial & sexual ephithets ad infinitum. Again, more a problem with indie stores than the GW corporate ones in my experience.
I think both of these would be a good idea to attract more customers in general. I'm sure there are plenty of people turned off of the game when they here some lame-*** yelling 'I just got raped by Jim's Daemons - it was so gay!'. Doesn't exactly say 'family friendly' or 'fun relaxing time'.
Aldramelech
08-25-2009, 12:21 PM
I think this thread has raised some very interesting points not only about the attitudes toward female gamers but also about negative attitudes toward gaming in general. It is clear that the hobby as a whole has an image problem.
What can be done about this I'm not sure, Sites like the infamous "Space Marines-Death Toys" certainly don't help (although it would seem that has been shut down...... shame that!)
I think more needs to be done to encourage younger girls into the hobby, after all we all started at a young age, although in different ways (Airfix, Commando comics, Army men, Action Man/GI Joe, War movies, computer games). Traditionally the things "boys" do.
This will be a tough cycle to break but I believe it is worth the effort, a more diverse gaming community can only be better and stronger.
EmperorEternalXIX
08-25-2009, 12:40 PM
I'm one of the rare female gamers too and like all the others that have posted in this thread, I've had more than my fair share of issues all because of my gender when it comes to gaming. Once a guy grabbed my rear when I was leaning over the table trying to move my Razorback, so I had to backhand him in the face so hard that he lost a couple teeth.
Seriously, what's a girl to do in such a situation? Things like this are why I think everybody needs to have my buddy Scott around. Scott is a massive monster of a guy, and an avid Magic fan and video gamer. He's not much for the socializing, and he doesn't do well with the ladies. While he was at Bridgewater State, he often was asked to be a bouncer for big parties. Over time he befriended some people and got invited around himself. One day he was at a party as a guest and went to the upstairs part of the place and heard a girl in the bathroom. There was a guy in there too, and the girl didn't sound like she was cooperating. So he stayed put and listened a minute. Eventually Scott heard something that sounded like trouble, and without a word, broke in the bathroom door and found some dude trying to force himself on some girl. Wordlessly, my friend Scott beat the guy into a paste before throwing him down the stairs and dragging him from the building. I have no doubt in my mind that if Scott were at your LGS when that butt-groping incident had happened, that guy would have had his skull caved in.
My point with the story is, shame on the whole rest of the group for not villifying, embarrassing, or flat out hitting that guy. To me, they are all as guilty as he is.
I'd say that one of the biggest problems relating to women trying to break into the war gaming world is the defensiveness of most people involved with the hobby. Think of it this way, I'm a pretty average guy in most respects but I wouldn't dream of telling people about my hobby. I am a professional, I have a degree from a renowned university, I rowed for a competitive club, I'm well-read, but the only thing anyone pays attention to is my hobby. I'm a zit-faced, poorly-groomed, shy, stammering, mother's-basement-dwelling, low life until proven otherwise and it's the same for most every other gamer. Is it any wonder that gamers are defensive? I agree with this wholeheartedly, except that I willingly tell all the world about the game. I think this is a huge part of why the stereotype is propagated so; I am a pretty normal guy, I drive my own car, I worked for the news business, I've had girlfriends aplenty (well not aplenty, but moreso than the average GW fanboy might have I guess). I play in rock bands, I have a lot of friends, I go out on weekends. I am not the mouth-breathing cellar-dweller people think we are. But in honesty I have met a lot of 40k players, and I actually think that very few of them are. I've met people from all walks of life playing warhammer -- buff dudes from the army, football fans, WoW players, morbidly obese fat dudes, little kids, entire families who play and paint together. The idea that the general 40k populace are all lonely uber-geeks with no hope of ever touching a female or moving out of their moms' basement is a very incorrect stereotype, in my experience.
So I wear the badge proudly. Read the books in public. Tell people about my games and how they turn out, the same way a football player might tell a friend about his game even if the friend isn't a football buff. I think this is important, as it normalizes the hobby to outsiders in a way.
Now we can say such assumptions shouldn't matter but they do. Our culture is obsessed with appearance, just look at how much time your buddies spend tweaking their profiles in Myspace or Facebook. They aren't changing themselves, they're trying to change how others view them. I try not to let people's opinion bother me but it certainly puts me on the defensive. The LGS I've been to are full of people who want to play (obviously) but also trying to relax in one place where they aren't getting crap for their hobby. Notice how most people get along inside your LGS despite having different hobbies, (Magic, D&D, 40k), different ages, and different backgrounds? It's because you've got one common enemy, everyone outside the LGS. Basically, this was the point I was trying to make. Those in the LGS are there because their hobby has been shunned or ridiculed or hamstrung by the outside. Anybody who wears the guise of the things that do that to us is sure to be met with resistance. I am still very, very disappointed by all this talk of bad treatment of women simply because of their gender, though. In almost all of these stories the ladies in this thread have told, I am ashamed of my fellow male spectators for not acting on their behalf. Chivalry aside, it just makes us all look more like the desperate, pathetic introverts/perverts we are seen as.
Trinity
08-25-2009, 01:13 PM
From the discussion in http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=346&page=9
What do you think? Are you a girl? Are there girls in your group? Does your wife play? etc. etc.
My wife loves to play games. Something she has ran into is that if I am not present she is spoken to condesendingly. Always as if she didnt know the rules. Or if she presents an idea she is ignored whether it was a good idea or not. At first I didn't believe it but I sat back and watched and sure enough they definitly treated her differently then her male counter parts. If a guy made the same suggestion that she had made the group would explain why the was considered to bad idea. When my wife made suggestions it was very typically ignored or convieniently looked over.
The only time where I have not seen this behavior has been in groups where the ratio of male to female was a lot closer to 50/50.
What is the answer to this. Not sure. But this is what I have observed first hand.
'ard_gal
08-25-2009, 01:27 PM
I don't know that I should really get involved in this kind of discussion, but I did come here looking for other women who play warhammer and this seems to be a somewhat relevant topic, so...
@ eldargal: Hi. I'm a gal and I play too.
@ Kahoolin: I am an only child and don't have a sig. other who plays. I don't have any male friends who play. I got into 40K when I walked into a game shop looking for a new game to play. I saw some guys playing 40K and thought "that looks like the game for me."
@ everyone: I DON'T like painting better than playing--in fact, I don't like painting very much at all. I love the color, but would never paint an army pink. I DON'T choose an army based on how pretty the models are. I DON'T worry about looking like a nerd. I'm not unattractive. I DO have issues at the game store where I play (while watching battles I've had guys ask me to roll or blow on their dice for them--guys, BLOW ON THIS <inappropriate hand gesture>!) I DO play for fun--winning is fun.
Vulkan He'stan
08-25-2009, 01:29 PM
theres a girl that works at my local GW and i sometimes see other girls in there like painting and stuff its not really uncommon.
GreenMarines
08-25-2009, 02:49 PM
Some complained that GF's have been the reason why friends left the hobby. In my case it was the other way around. 3 years ago I wanted to sell all my mins because i had not enough time for W40k. My GF asked me if I am really sure. Some weeks later we came along a GW-Store and she asked me if I didn't want to go in. 3 month later I started a new army.
Today I'm glad I did not left the hobby. I enjoy painting and playing and in most cases my GF has a good advise when I'm not sure which color would be appropriate or which pose looks best.
Okay, the attempt to get my GF into the hobby was not 100% successful, I now play Eldar as third army. But I get her playing once a month or once every two month and we both enjoy it.
Mike X
08-25-2009, 05:49 PM
I didn't know an 7 year old could hate an army so much :)
Touche! It didn't come out the way I meant to say it.
Although, I was 7 or 8 when I started playing Rifts... so it is possible.
TheKingElessar
08-25-2009, 07:12 PM
Frankly, I wish there were more female gamers because:
a) Diversity is good
b) Some players I know could do with the improved social skills
c) I find it a turn-on.
Could just be me.
Especially ones who like to win...Hi Ard Gal, welcome to BoLS. I'm kidding. Sort of. lol.
Mike X
08-25-2009, 07:17 PM
Frankly, I wish there were more female gamers because:
c) I find it a turn-on.
Oh yeah, I love getting down and dirty with a chick and she starts yelling, "WAAAAGHHH!!!!"
So hot.
BlacknightIII
08-25-2009, 07:18 PM
(while watching battles I've had guys ask me to roll or blow on their dice for them--guys, BLOW ON THIS <inappropriate hand gesture>!) I DO play for fun--winning is fun.
One of the female players had been rolling like a beast that particular day and my dice were stuck rolling 1's and 2's. I asked her to roll my dice for and she got mad at me and said something similar ro the quote above. She swatted the dice from my hand and rolled three sixes and a four for my marine commanders invo saves.
She apologized for the outburst (after i told her why i picked her to role) and we had a good high five for the awesome game winning role.
TheKingElessar
08-25-2009, 07:25 PM
Oh yeah, I love getting down and dirty with a chick and she starts yelling, "WAAAAGHHH!!!!"
So hot.
I'm thinking of a Blood for the Blood God joke, but it's a little too adult. I hope you can fill in your own, um...blanks. ;)
Mike X
08-25-2009, 07:29 PM
I'm thinking of a Blood for the Blood God joke, but it's a little too adult. I hope you can fill in your own, um...blanks. ;)
That is so bad...
...I love it.
TheKingElessar
08-25-2009, 07:36 PM
To be fair, it probably sums up why I'm single, and there are so few female gamers at the same time. It doesn't matter that I'd never actually say that joke, the mere fact that I thought it is enough. ;)
eldargal
08-25-2009, 07:37 PM
Actually, one of our married ladies made an incredibly graphic joke in the same vein about her Khorne army. The teenage boys nearby were so incredibly shocked that a girl would make such a joke, it was very funny. Then one of them said "I don't get it." Which was equally funny, to me.
Nice to see so many other girl gamers here on BolS.
I'm thinking of a Blood for the Blood God joke, but it's a little too adult. I hope you can fill in your own, um...blanks. ;)
TheKingElessar
08-25-2009, 07:48 PM
I would have laughed my BoLS off it I saw a female gamer say it. :D
gwensdad
08-25-2009, 08:16 PM
Actually, one of our married ladies made an incredibly graphic joke in the same vein about her Khorne army. The teenage boys nearby were so incredibly shocked that a girl would make such a joke, it was very funny. Then one of them said "I don't get it." Which was equally funny, to me.
Another forum I'm on has an entire sub-forum dedicated to such humor. And a great deal of it comes from the women. That exact kind of thing would be perfect for telling that Khorne joke...
Commissar Lewis
08-26-2009, 08:38 PM
Damn, I honestly wish there were more women at my local GW store, if only because generally women have better hygiene. Not insulting the clientele there, but sometimes the stench in there can border on a biological weapon. I mean you're in public, for feth's sake. But I digress...
Honestly it would make the hobby a bit more fun and varied. Seeing only dudes can grate on one's eyes after a while.
I don't know, I'm tired and rambling at this point. Sorry to waste your time.
gwensdad
08-26-2009, 09:17 PM
Damn, I honestly wish there were more women at my local GW store, if only because generally women have better hygiene. Not insulting the clientele there, but sometimes the stench in there can border on a biological weapon. I mean you're in public, for feth's sake. But I digress...
(snip)
I don't know, I'm tired and rambling at this point. Sorry to waste your time.
Actually, you stumble across a Very good point. If "Gamer funk" is the norm at a store, what women will want to hang out there? I've rarely seen a store enforce a "no smell" policy, as much as it might improve business on all fronts.
Carly
08-26-2009, 09:21 PM
wow, I have read through most of the posts here and I am seriously shocked.
I am a female gamer and have mainly been playing in a small university town in Wales but I often go to the GWs in Bristol when I am down there as well.
And all I can say is the amount of attention I get is staggering. Loads of guys talk to me, the staff in the store often make a bee line for me (twice now have completely ignored the male company I was with) and pretty much proceed with a Joey style 'How you doin?' chat up line. Then I actually tell them I play and then the fun really begins!
I wouldn't say I was the prettyist gal in the world, but quite a few people think I am cute. And I think this helps. Just being in a store, casually browsing around, and suddenly your the new play thing in the store! ;)
I actually dont find this demeaning or anything, once we get talking about the hobby they realise that I am serious gamer and then its all 'our gaming night are... What to play next time?'. Ive never had any abuse from anyone in a store, and I find just get them on the lastest codex, black library book, or WD article and things go alot more smoothly.
I was the first girl to join the club in wales (and actually turn up and play), and since then only one other has joined. And she perfers the painting side to it than the playing. Not that her BF minds, she paints all his stuff!
Personally, I think the boys in my group in Wales are actually very protective over me. One time, during my first tournament there, Craig said that if the other team give me any lip about being a girl, he will sort them out for me. You know, in a nice way...
I just think that we all share something in common and we should stick by each other because of that, not serparate just because I'm a girl and you are a guy.
Besides, my nids will pone you anyday.... ;)
Commissar Lewis
08-26-2009, 10:45 PM
True, gwensdad, I guess I did stumble upon a point. * warning: editorial i.e rant incoming!*
At least at my local store, some people show up smelling worse than a homeless person. I'm not trying to insult anyone personally or intentionally, just oft my metaphors can be a bit... scathing. I know this isn't the most trendy or hippest hobby, but if you're going into a public store, at least put on deodorant. Maybe it's the way a good number of GW hobbyists handle themselves, either hygiene or otherwise, that cause the limited number of women in the hobby. It is a fun hobby that can certainly be enjoyed by both genders.
But maybe, don't quote me on this, I'm not a woman; the reason a lot of women are turned away from the hobby is stereotype of GW gamers as unwashed, funky nerds. I know that population is only a fraction of GW gamers, many of us are well-kept and normal people. But as with any stereotype there is a small percent of truth. I think it may be the people that wander into public unwashed and reeking to high-heaven that give the rest of us a bad name.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing those people. Not everyone is a hygiene-obsessed person. I'm just saying at least put on some deodorant if your going into public. And I think stores should start having some kind of policy about funk. Granted you can't kick someone out for being stinky, but you can at least say something to them.
Ugh, got a bit off the women GW gamers topic a bit. Sorry to all for that, and thanks to those that read my rant, er editorial.
TheKingElessar
08-27-2009, 09:09 AM
wow, I have read through most of the posts here and I am seriously shocked.
I am a female gamer and have mainly been playing in a small university town in Wales but I often go to the GWs in Bristol when I am down there as well.
And all I can say is the amount of attention I get is staggering. Loads of guys talk to me, the staff in the store often make a bee line for me (twice now have completely ignored the male company I was with) and pretty much proceed with a Joey style 'How you doin?' chat up line. Then I actually tell them I play and then the fun really begins!
I wouldn't say I was the prettyist gal in the world, but quite a few people think I am cute. And I think this helps. Just being in a store, casually browsing around, and suddenly your the new play thing in the store! ;)
I actually dont find this demeaning or anything, once we get talking about the hobby they realise that I am serious gamer and then its all 'our gaming night are... What to play next time?'. Ive never had any abuse from anyone in a store, and I find just get them on the lastest codex, black library book, or WD article and things go alot more smoothly.
I was the first girl to join the club in wales (and actually turn up and play), and since then only one other has joined. And she perfers the painting side to it than the playing. Not that her BF minds, she paints all his stuff!
Personally, I think the boys in my group in Wales are actually very protective over me. One time, during my first tournament there, Craig said that if the other team give me any lip about being a girl, he will sort them out for me. You know, in a nice way...
I just think that we all share something in common and we should stick by each other because of that, not serparate just because I'm a girl and you are a guy.
Besides, my nids will pone you anyday.... ;)
How you doin'? ;)
Carly
08-27-2009, 12:16 PM
Im pretty damn fine, and yourself?
hehe ;)
TheKingElessar
08-27-2009, 05:43 PM
Ah, I like Welsh girls...
;)
And I'm grand, thanks for asking.
EmperorEternalXIX
08-27-2009, 08:10 PM
Personally, I think the boys in my group in Wales are actually very protective over me. One time, during my first tournament there, Craig said that if the other team give me any lip about being a girl, he will sort them out for me. You know, in a nice way... This guy likes you, bet my right arm.
I'd still rather have people erring on the side of chivalry and nobility than intolerance and segregation.
j-orge-287
08-28-2009, 03:36 AM
One of the staff at my local store is a woman and I once saw a mum gaming with her son AND a few girls come in to paint models because they like the arty side of the hobby
Kahoolin
08-28-2009, 04:52 AM
I do have one concern about girls getting more into GW games: This idea that girls are great painters and modelers compared to guys. It would totally suck if more females joined the hobby and really got into the painting side, and then all the young guys started thinking painting was for girls, and the hobby got split into the creative elements for girls and the competitive elements for boys.
I would hate to be called a *** by a kid with a grey plastic army because I care about painting. I get enough of those sorts of insults playing Halo :D
Abominable Plague Marine
08-28-2009, 05:18 AM
haha, if they already have those stereotyped segragations implanted in their minds, there is little hope. Afterall, you cannot teach the ignorant (tongue in cheek).
I once heard a young guy say at one of the local stores he was considering giving the game away as some "girls" had come across the game and really taken to the painting side of things, and were now cleaning up in all the prizes that he felt belonged to the hobbyist. I could have slapped him (big haymaker, open palmed, with metal miniatures between my fingers for that flesh flaying sensation).
I guess that outweighed his enjoyment, which for the most part I can understand, peoples intrests in various things grow and fade with time, its human nature to make excuses for it.
Fact is, our hobby has checks and balances (and Codex creep) like everything else in our world (Codex creep = evolution), that are out of the handsl of GW. There is NEVER any equality in anything, there is a constant struggle, and like this discussion, there is no end in sight.
prophet665
08-28-2009, 10:01 AM
I do have one concern about girls getting more into GW games: This idea that girls are great painters and modelers compared to guys. It would totally suck if more females joined the hobby and really got into the painting side, and then all the young guys started thinking painting was for girls, and the hobby got split into the creative elements for girls and the competitive elements for boys.
I would hate to be called a *** by a kid with a grey plastic army because I care about painting. I get enough of those sorts of insults playing Halo :D
As you get older that kind of stuff goes away. Hell, imagine being 19 and having a hobby that is dominated by women that you enjoy immensely. Where is the down-side of that situation? And I get to roll dice and play with the little army men I just painted?!? Holy hell. I have died and gone to heaven.
Exitus Acta Probat
08-28-2009, 10:07 AM
Women Gamers in GW?
not enough of em!
If there were more, incidences of gamer funk would drop dramatically! ;) (j/k)
ferris1971
03-15-2010, 10:34 PM
Interesting thread... Cast me in the lot of guys who has a wives that simply tolerate the hobby... BARELY.
With regards to changing image and getting women more involved, having more female employees would certainly help. I see TONS of game shops with women employees, but neither of the GW stores in this area (I'm in Dallas) have any female employees. Not only could they make women a little more comfortable, it could also help fend off the ditzy teenage girls who just want to act foolish. Girl power, so to speak. :)
BuFFo
03-15-2010, 10:41 PM
Interesting thread... Cast me in the lot of guys who has a wives that simply tolerate the hobby... BARELY.
With regards to changing image and getting women more involved, having more female employees would certainly help. I see TONS of game shops with women employees, but neither of the GW stores in this area (I'm in Dallas) have any female employees. Not only could they make women a little more comfortable, it could also help fend off the ditzy teenage girls who just want to act foolish. Girl power, so to speak. :)
NOOOOO!!!
This thread is seven months old!!!!
Can a mod please lock this abomination!?!?!?!?!
RocketRollRebel
03-15-2010, 10:41 PM
Women Gamers in GW?
not enough of em!
If there were more, incidences of gamer funk would drop dramatically! ;) (j/k)
so true! :)
My gf has changed over the years. It started with her hating it to now she is teh coolest about it and knows way more about the hobby than she wishes she did :p
eldargal
03-15-2010, 10:54 PM
Hey, how many threads reach 10 pages and seven months without going wildly off topic? Doesn't warrant a lock if people still want to add to it.
NOOOOO!!!
This thread is seven months old!!!!
Can a mod please lock this abomination!?!?!?!?!
BuFFo
03-15-2010, 10:57 PM
Hey, how many threads reach 10 pages and seven months without going wildly off topic? Doesn't warrant a lock if people still want to add to it.
The last post WAS seven months ago before the thread got ressurected. I don't think you noticed that.
eldargal
03-15-2010, 11:07 PM
I did, the fact remains it hasn't gone off topic (:p) and that people can add to it if they want. Just becuase you do not want to doesn't mean others won't.
The last post WAS seven months ago before the thread got ressurected. I don't think you noticed that.
I agree, the problem is where to find them. All the girls I know that are into the hobby have absolutely no interest in working retail of any sort, let alone in an area where you are likely to be only other female staffer AND unlikely to encounter very many female customers.
With regards to changing image and getting women more involved, having more female employees would certainly help. I see TONS of game shops with women employees, but neither of the GW stores in this area (I'm in Dallas) have any female employees. Not only could they make women a little more comfortable, it could also help fend off the ditzy teenage girls who just want to act foolish. Girl power, so to speak.
Commissar Lewis
03-15-2010, 11:46 PM
Nope, our group doesn't have a female.
Actually tbh my interest in the hobby is waning a bit, not due to the above reason but because of my group. No one ever wants to come up with interesting new scenarios, prefering to stick to the tired old three scenarios in the BRB. But I'm rambling.
rbryce
03-16-2010, 12:24 AM
my local GW has loads of em at the weekend. theyre mostly teenagers though, and come iin, do some painting, chat with their mates, then go out about an hour later. seems they go to the same school as some of the regulars. luckily a few dads go too, so i get someone to talk to.
Aldramelech
03-16-2010, 02:12 AM
I did, the fact remains it hasn't gone off topic (:p) and that people can add to it if they want. Just becuase you do not want to doesn't mean others won't.
Unfortunately (for all of us) he seems to think hes some kind of unofficial moderator and its his duty to go around telling people what to do and enforcing (his own made up) forum rules.
Its quite sad really.......
BuFFo
03-16-2010, 05:30 AM
Unfortunately (for all of us) he seems to think hes some kind of unofficial moderator and its his duty to go around telling people what to do and enforcing (his own made up) forum rules.
Its quite sad really.......
I agree.
+3 posts now.
therealjohnny5
03-16-2010, 07:08 AM
Hey, how many threads reach 10 pages and seven months without going wildly off topic? Doesn't warrant a lock if people still want to add to it.
agreed and for the record while my wife doesn't play 40K she has expressed interest in WFB, she's hot, doesn't mind when the crew comes over and plays until 1 AM, and likes to walk by as we're setting up and pretend to smash the models and terrain, or occasionally placing our ferret to rampage the terrain before we start a game...all in good fun. we all laugh and her ridiculous noises help.
I realize this thread is old but come on a new guy wants to comment. and as to those who expressed woe to the female experience as their girlfriends, you guys are dating the wrong peeps! lol
Denzark
03-16-2010, 07:57 AM
Nope, our group doesn't have a female.
Actually tbh my interest in the hobby is waning a bit, not due to the above reason but because of my group. No one ever wants to come up with interesting new scenarios, prefering to stick to the tired old three scenarios in the BRB. But I'm rambling.
Get the battle missions, and maybe google for the dice like thunder scenarios - this will breathe new life into the old dog.
As to this topic, can a moderator lock BuFFOOOOOO as he has been clarting on for ages...
ZenPaladin
03-16-2010, 11:00 AM
My girlfriend and I finished up a game of 1000 points C&C with Tau vs Cron's last night.
She was trying the cron's and did pretty well. My broadsides poped her Mono in the first round of shooting though. When I first met her she had played some Warmachine and loved to paint. (She's a better painter than I and I'm trying to get her to teach me proper dry brushing.) She knew of 40K and I basicly begged her to try it. We talked a bit about the armies and she came down to Dark Eldar and Tyranids. (this is the old nid's mind you.)
Since DE were so rare and hard to get we bought her a small Nid force and she played a few games and ended up getting very upset and frustrated with how quickly her bugs went splat. She gave up the game for a while and I figured that was that but recently she's shown more intrest and we are going to try to take it slower this time and let her try a larger veriety of armies before deciding if she wants to focus on one.
Tougher more Elite forces seem more her style as that way she feels less frustration at wasted points. She will try the marines next...
Melissia
03-16-2010, 11:28 AM
This guy likes you, bet my right arm.
I'd still rather have people erring on the side of chivalry and nobility than intolerance and segregation.
As would I, but some people mistake chivalry with douchebaggery-- some women mistake honest chivalry with sexism (making it even harder for those guys), and some men try and disguise their sexism as chivalry (making it harder for women to tell when it's honest)... it's a wonderful world we live in ain't it?
Also, buffo? Stop spamming the damn thread already. We get it, you're padding your post count because apparently for some reason you think it matters... but we're having a serious conversation here.
Jwolf
03-16-2010, 11:44 AM
As a general rule, once threads are 7 months old, they are dead. It seems this one still has a few people that have something to say, as bizarre as this may seem. I was certainly prepared to cast out the necromancers from the temple, but no reason to.
BuFFo - Just let it go.
Everyone else - Why comment on BuFFo's lack of material in his comments. He isn't actually doing anything that violates the TOS.
Asymmetrical Xeno
03-16-2010, 11:57 AM
hehe, my GF is huge on 40k - she collects chaos daemons and even prefers the weirder stuff like flamers and horrors which is awesome! shes big on painting, building terrain as much as playing the game with me. I really have no idea how I got so damn lucky :eek: and yes she is very pretty too :D
Commissar Lewis
03-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Get the battle missions, and maybe google for the dice like thunder scenarios - this will breathe new life into the old dog.
As to this topic, can a moderator lock BuFFOOOOOO as he has been clarting on for ages...
True, I would, but pretty much the entirety of the group follows my one friend, who likes to everything by the book and not come up with new and interesting stuff. Pretty much Rules Lawyer meets Obstructive Bereaucrat.
I dunno, man, I think I need a hiatus from playing for a while, at least until I find a new group or something.
Melissia
03-16-2010, 12:18 PM
Blah. That's sucky, Lewis. Hell even though we prefer to do things by the book here we at least throw some houserules and new missions around every now and then.
BuFFo
03-16-2010, 02:03 PM
Women don't wargame as much as men because there isn't an army consisting of sentient shoes that a woman would be interested in fielding.
HQ
The Purse w/ Retinue of lipstick and compact
Elite
High Heels
Nair
Troops
Shoes
Hair Dye
Fast Attack
Cell Phone
Secret Bank Account
Heavy Support
World of Warcraft Account
Stove
Gotthammer
03-16-2010, 02:31 PM
That explains the popularity of Marines then, especially looking at the last codex:
HQ
Captain Six-Pack
Elites
Venerable Mullet
Beating Up Nerdguard Veterans
Troops
Are you ready for some football Squads
Fast Attack
Land Speeder Ford Pickup
Assault backyard WWE
Heavy Support
Predator sorry babe I've got an early meeting
Land Raider sitting around in the gentleman's club smoking cigars laughing at women and that it's funny to patronise them (yet they still don't want to hang around in our club).
Stupid codex creep :rolleyes:
Jwolf
03-16-2010, 02:42 PM
I approve of the last two messages in this thread. If you are offended by either, take two martinis and learn to relax.
Melissia
03-16-2010, 02:54 PM
Gotthammer: Don't forget the wargear Epeen, a power weapon whose strength raises or lowers depending on how willing the bearer is to make an *** of themselves in order to look cool amongst their friends.
It's quite a popular weapon for HQ choices in that army.
MarneusCalgar
03-16-2010, 04:18 PM
So be just glad you have women just playing in UK and USA, because here in Spain we have women in the hobby, but only painting or modelling ones!!
Or our girlfriends hehehe (mine makes escenario kits for me), I have some plastic things made by her with a good quality for being a beginner on all this stuff
eldargal
03-16-2010, 04:45 PM
Well, quite, I thought they were both rather amusing myself, especially Buffo's.
I approve of the last two messages in this thread. If you are offended by either, take two martinis and learn to relax.
Gotthammers gentlemans club comment actually raised an interesting issue, I think, which is how many girls that express an interest in the hobby are discouraged from continuing by boyfriends/partners/etc who want to keep it as a 'boys only' thing for them and their friends? I really have no idea, it may not be many at all.
Commissar Lewis
03-16-2010, 05:13 PM
Ha, those two mock army list posts were hilarious! Venerable Mullet sounds awesome, and now I need to get a dreadnought and give it a huge ol' mullet.
Nabterayl
03-16-2010, 05:14 PM
My group has four girls that play, and I've actually often wondered about that question myself, eldargal. One of the women is dating one of the guys in our group, and various people have remarked before how hot it is that she's interested in the game for the game's sake. I've never found a good opportunity to ask whether that's off-putting, because it calls attention to the fact that we care that she's a woman, or whether it falls into the normal category of complimenting a romantic compatibility.
Melissia
03-16-2010, 05:36 PM
That depends on just how creepy the individual in question is (nerds to me aren't that creepy, as I've been one all my life and thus hung around them... but some people just are no matter what group they belong to), and whether it is appropriately timed, and the way they do it...
Lord Anubis
03-16-2010, 06:32 PM
My regular group has two women. My girlfriend started playing last year (slowly but surely learning the rules) and has a pretty solid Ork freebooter/pirate-themed Waaagh.
gwensdad
03-16-2010, 08:07 PM
One of my group complained the other day about a lack of "new blood" in our group. I pointed at Da Gwen and told him "Give me a few more years", but he didn't think she'd be interested.
Note: Gwen has stolen 1 old scout sarge and 3 (2nd edition) gretchin from me and painted them (when she was 5) and for Christmas swiped some fantasy warhorses from me, painted them, and gave them to the grand parents. Yep: no interest at all...
Granted, I think she will need to learn to read better before picking up a 40K rulebook. That and getting female offspring to play probably isn't practical for everyone...
therealjohnny5
03-16-2010, 09:04 PM
As would I, but some people mistake chivalry with douchebaggery-- some women mistake honest chivalry with sexism (making it even harder for those guys), and some men try and disguise their sexism as chivalry (making it harder for women to tell when it's honest)... it's a wonderful world we live in ain't it?
Also, buffo? Stop spamming the damn thread already. We get it, you're padding your post count because apparently for some reason you think it matters... but we're having a serious conversation here.
douchbaggery...that's a great word, i'm stealing it (schwoop...there it goes into my infinite bag of holding). I think a lot of the awkwardness originates from us (the dudes) making things awkward. just be natural about it, if another player is female, awesome, just help them feel welcome like anyone else. I think there is an element of escapism involved for some men but if they are there to get away from their wives, they need to work on some things in their marriage, and certainly shouldn't be projecting those same issues on any other players of the female gender that are coming in to play.
True, I would, but pretty much the entirety of the group follows my one friend, who likes to everything by the book and not come up with new and interesting stuff. Pretty much Rules Lawyer meets Obstructive Bereaucrat.
I dunno, man, I think I need a hiatus from playing for a while, at least until I find a new group or something.
Take a break bro, then come to NY so you can play in our club and kick butt manhattan style...
I approve of the last two messages in this thread. If you are offended by either, take two martinis and learn to relax.
i'm more of a scotch man myself...or a nice Trappist Ale....
Commissar Lewis
03-16-2010, 11:16 PM
Realjohnny, if I had the cash I'd love to go to NY. Michigan, at least the crappy Detroit suburb I live in, sucks hardcore.
I suppose I could frequent the nearest GW store but I kid you not it smells awful in there. I swear it's a biological warfare testing ground.
Gotthammer
03-17-2010, 08:26 AM
Venerable Mullet sounds awesome, and now I need to get a dreadnought and give it a huge ol' mullet.
"Even in death there is a party out back."
Gotthammers gentlemans club comment actually raised an interesting issue, I think, which is how many girls that express an interest in the hobby are discouraged from continuing by boyfriends/partners/etc who want to keep it as a 'boys only' thing for them and their friends? I really have no idea, it may not be many at all.
I wouldn't put this down to just girls - the other at the Battle Missions release a bunch of 'cool' guys and a couple of girls came into the store and started watching the game and mostly being *****. Two of the guys seemed fairly interested and were asking non-smartass questions, but when the others got bored they were rather reluctant to leave, but still did.
I've also seen 'geeks' discriminate against 'cool' guys and girls, maybe to keep their club exclusive? But it's hard to say.
Fellend
03-17-2010, 08:50 AM
In my (now previous) gaming club there was definitivly a hate against "cooler" people. The geeks would attack the ones that had girlfriends, chat about how stupid it is to go out drinking and be quite rude towards girls in general.
They had one female member but as they pointed out "She doesn't look like a woman, she barely talks and has a boyfriend so she doesn't count" I brought along my Ex to the store and she was stared at to the point where she felt forced to leave. When she tried to buy me presents in there, half the store rushed to her attention untill she mentioned she was buying it for her boyfriend and they suddenly lost all interest.
The problem is that many nerds doesn't have any social skills worth mentioning. Me and my friends have an interesting theory that if you don't get laid by the age of 20 your resentment against the opposite gender starts taking it's toll and your sanity slowly crumbles.
BuFFo
03-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Ignore this post. The post made by Melissa after this one got deleted somehow, so I combined my posts in the one bellow.
Double post be gone!
- edit-
I asked a mod to delete this post to get this thing out of here. Please be patient.
Melissia
03-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Assuming you ever had sanity to begin with.
BuFFo
03-17-2010, 08:56 AM
Also, buffo? Stop spamming the damn thread already. We get it, you're padding your post count because apparently for some reason you think it matters... but we're having a serious conversation here.
You are completely right!
Many apologies!
Assuming you ever had sanity to begin with.
In before you complain about ME being off topic and post count padding (looks at your response here and your post count).
I support female gamers 100% The game needs more pseudomales playing the game! See, I am on topic!
Aldramelech
03-17-2010, 09:15 AM
If you had your way this forum would consist of very dry and boring dicussions. Observational humour baned now?
Why dont you give it a bloody rest for christ sake!
We dont care what you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Melissia
03-17-2010, 09:21 AM
Another thing... about the smell. I wonder why more shops haven't attempted to enforce something about this? It's really bad for business, I know several people-- both male and female-- who don't go to a certain store because of the lack of hygene of its denizens. So their business goes to a different store. Good going manager.
Oh, and shutup Buffo.
BuFFo
03-17-2010, 09:24 AM
Oh, and shutup Buffo.
I think my local area needs more female gamers like you. The take charge kinda girl who plays fringe armies that actually make the game fun.
How many ladies play in your local area that you are aware of?
therealjohnny5
03-17-2010, 11:05 AM
Another thing... about the smell. I wonder why more shops haven't attempted to enforce something about this? It's really bad for business, I know several people-- both male and female-- who don't go to a certain store because of the lack of hygene of its denizens. So their business goes to a different store. Good going manager.
Oh, and shutup Buffo.
i blame the foundation paints for the odor....though its probably not a legit reason for it...
Melissia
03-17-2010, 11:13 AM
That... isn't the smell that's the problem. The smell of paints and glues and etc is fine. You expect that in a hobby store, and depending on the store size they aren't really that strong. It's... the bodily odors thta's mostly to blame. To paraphrase Foamy, some people need to learn what soap and deoderant are for (Even if he was talking about conventions). Mind you those idiots that cover it up with too much cologne aren't much better...
Aldramelech
03-17-2010, 11:33 AM
Goodbye
Commissar Lewis
03-17-2010, 02:17 PM
Yeah, by Freya man people's BO in some of them stores borders on almost weaponized. Me and a friend went in for an Apoc game once and there was this one guy that I kid you not smelled like a porto-john screwed a piece of rotten meat. It was borderline biological warfare. Needless to stay we only stayed for about 1/4 of the battle before we had to bail.
The GW stores do need to enforce some kind of hygiene rule, I mean I know this isn't the hippest hobby on the block, but c'mon you're in public for feth's sake.
Maybe that's once reason women are hesitant to enter the stores, and I don't blame 'em. That and the distinct lack of social skills of some people in the stores. I've run into quite a few feth heads in my day.
The Girl
04-02-2010, 12:31 AM
That... isn't the smell that's the problem. The smell of paints and glues and etc is fine. You expect that in a hobby store, and depending on the store size they aren't really that strong. It's... the bodily odors thta's mostly to blame. To paraphrase Foamy, some people need to learn what soap and deoderant are for (Even if he was talking about conventions). Mind you those idiots that cover it up with too much cologne aren't much better...
I've suggested selling Speed Stick and Irish Spring at the counter where I work. Has yet to take on...
I've known a few female gamers in my day. They never stick around very long.
Lerra
04-02-2010, 12:34 PM
Part of the odor problem is that if you are working in the store all day, you stop smelling it. If you've ever been in a barn full of manure for an extended period of time, you know what I mean. You can't smell it after a while. My FLGS has a policy that smelly people must use the store-provided deodorant or leave, but it's hard to enforce. Even when you can smell it, it's sometimes hard to figure out exactly who the culprit is, especially on days when there is a Magic: The Gathering tournament and there is a cloud of funk hovering over the entire room.
I wonder if these people realize that they smell like a fish was wrapped in gym socks and left to rot in the sun for a week?
Part of the odor problem is that if you are working in the store all day, you stop smelling it. If you've ever been in a barn full of manure for an extended period of time, you know what I mean. You can't smell it after a while. My FLGS has a policy that smelly people must use the store-provided deodorant or leave, but it's hard to enforce. Even when you can smell it, it's sometimes hard to figure out exactly who the culprit is, especially on days when there is a Magic: The Gathering tournament and there is a cloud of funk hovering over the entire room.
I wonder if these people realize that they smell like a fish was wrapped in gym socks and left to rot in the sun for a week?
Nah, they have no idea. It's like you said "If you've ever been in a barn full of manure for an extended period of time...You can't smell it after a while."
Ugly74
04-04-2010, 03:20 AM
My Lovely partner is damn fine tactician and a more than fair painter.... and she has been on the receiving end of the whole "chicks cant be gamers" routine from her Ex... even to the point she was at a game con a few years ago and they were handing out commemorative minis.. even the organisers wernt keen to give her a mini because "they were for the gamers". She was only given one after making a huge fuss... three years later after a house shift, her partner lost his and confiscated hers..
Now she wont play anyone but me... and if anyone asks "Whos are the toy soldiers in the china cabinet?" she says they're mine.
eldargal
04-04-2010, 03:40 AM
That really is disgraceful, not giving her a mini because they just assumed she wasn't a gamer. I'm glad a fuss was made and that she got one in the end.
My Lovely partner is damn fine tactician and a more than fair painter.... and she has been on the receiving end of the whole "chicks cant be gamers" routine from her Ex... even to the point she was at a game con a few years ago and they were handing out commemorative minis.. even the organisers wernt keen to give her a mini because "they were for the gamers". She was only given one after making a huge fuss... three years later after a house shift, her partner lost his and confiscated hers..
Now she wont play anyone but me... and if anyone asks "Whos are the toy soldiers in the china cabinet?" she says they're mine.
Ebsolom Dhaark
04-04-2010, 03:55 AM
The only female gamer I encountered was a friends ex. She used to play mainly boardgames like Talisman, Zombies, Risk etc and dabbled at MTG. A very cunning and tactile opponent, something that's lacking in the 40K players I encounter at the moment with their "internetz uber list".:(
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
04-04-2010, 08:37 AM
Yeah is disgusting sometimes to walk into a gaming store and know that Papa Nurgle has seeped into the store an dinfluenced people through bad hygiene.
My best mate is a large guy, and he just sweats a lot, not shockingly bad but its something he cant help. Its bad the way some peolpe are in disrespect though. He takes his hygiene serious, uses deodreant all the time, yet still you get obnoxious, selfish and just plain rude morons in stores that like to make a fuss over it.
I understand that when in a room with lots of people things can get a "little off", my local gaming store, is a prime example with a broken air-con. Owner wont fix it but then wants to make fuss over the stail air.
As for woman gamers, i thinks that was so rude and ill mannered to your GF, no wonder she wont play, i really hope for her she changes her mind and finds the time, and fun to enjoy it again. Maybe let her read some of these posts may help.
I knew a woman back in 2nd Ed BA who had the whole Chapter....yes im not joking, she have 1000 marines, with transports and was a mean player (not mean that she would get the Red Thirst), just a great tactician, awesome painter and loved to play.
Lerra
04-04-2010, 09:47 AM
even the organisers wernt keen to give her a mini because "they were for the gamers".
Damn, that is sad and rather pathetic. I was thrilled that everyone at Adepticon treated me like a gamer - no problems whatsoever. I did have an opponent at a previous tournament who refused to play me because he wanted a "real game", though.
Melissia
04-04-2010, 10:12 AM
To paraphrase TheSpoonyOne... I would want to punch them in the ****ing SOUL if they did that to me...
Meh, I'm not that physical IRL, but I'd still want to anyway. I can game with the best of them... hell a great deal of my time is taken up with the RTS and TBS genres of games (IE, Real-Time- and Turn-Based-Strategy), along with FPS games. I game more than many men do, and I don't suck at it either...
Not like I run into any lack of sexism in the videogaming hobby, either...
XHound87
04-04-2010, 11:32 PM
On the hygienne issue, we've had to have several talks with a couple of the regulars about what a shower was (when you work at a GW, sometimes things do come up....), and usually that does the trick. If it got really bad we would have to ask them to leave, and mind you, it'd have to be pretty bad to have that happen. Being clean can be so easy if you put a little work in on it.
As far as the girl/ lady gamers thing goes, I'm gonna agree with most of the original points made. Adding in my own two cents, my lovely gamer girlfriend is becoming more active in the hobby and has a lot of fun with it. When our GW was in the local mall some years ago, she ventured in and got the treatment that many people have mentioned already; a lot of the members there gave her nasty looks and made some snide comments, and she just honestly wanted to see what it was. This is also the community that was one of the least accepting and potentially nasty groups of people in existence in the area. Nowadays she's playing Orks for 40k and learning faster than most people I've met. It's really fantastic. She does wish there were more ladies there though (she's the only one, though there's another who seems to be picking up the hobby, at least for painting).
I'm going to check with her and see what she feels about this whole thing, as a relative newcomer to the hobby.
Commissar Lewis
04-05-2010, 11:36 AM
Damn, 40k players really treat chick gamers that poorly?
Sounds like some of em need a good punch to the throat, or at the least a headbutt.
Chris Copeland
04-05-2010, 03:25 PM
We had a great LGS called Central Command in San Antonio. There were a few female players. I think they fit in well and had a good time. CC closed down and the crowd moved over to Dragon's Lair... same thing there... a couple of women players but not many.
As for the hygiene issue: that's just nasty. Their buddies need to clue them in!
cheers... chris
PS Seems like there are a good number of female CCG players in my area... they play the card-flopping games but not the wargames... not sure why. In my personal life, my wife cannot stand science fiction stuff so she's made it clear that while she's supportive of me having my hobby she have no interst in playing any of these games...
Sparda
04-14-2010, 12:29 AM
About 95% of the guys I know who play WFB, LoTR or 40k have never even talked to any females outside of their families so most of them feel really intimidated and nervous around any female gamers. My girlfriend sometime comes to my local hobby center with me when I go since she likes to look at the models which she also paints with me sometimes, and with my luck I normally go there when it's a game night, and every time she comes with me everyone stops what there doing, point at her, stare and start whispering to each other, and it's even worse when its Magic the Gathering night.(most of them are 15-20ish). But most of all I just think it's guys not being use to being around females at all, or when they are around one they start to sweat and stare directly at there chest and if the guys say anything at all it comes out as something really odd, and the better looking the females are the more nervous and awkward the guys get. But I think/hope that if more females got into gaming and showing up for game nights or tournaments that hopefully things would get better, but until then my girlfriend will never go near hobby shops anymore =/
trackanddice
04-14-2010, 06:19 AM
Is it too simplistic just to say that there are some things guys do and some things women do? Personally i am not sure why, it just seems to be that way. I live in the UK and go fishing alot, its another thing you hardly see women doing. I ride motorbikes, you hardly see women riding them as apposed to being on the back of their other halves bike. There are plenty of things that you hardly see guys doing too though.
But on the flip side i guess there is hope, look at football (soccer) 30 years ago it was male dominated but now most crowds i see have about 30/40% women in them. I know the Womens game (as in playing) is hardly massive but its a start!
As for people saying their kids are getting into it, i have 3yo and 7yo girls, the 3 yo seems to think the models on my desk want to fight Peppa Pig over my half done scenery and even possitioned a space marine librarian facing a vampire counts skeleton on a piece of rock scenery and told me off when i tried to move it. and the 7yo is more into doctor who than i am!
Melissia
04-14-2010, 08:17 AM
Is it too simplistic just to say that there are some things guys do and some things women do?
Yes.
Another Random Geek
04-14-2010, 05:34 PM
Well, why don't we just end it on this note?
Warhammer, like any other legitimate form of entertainment, should not be restricted to any sexual, ethnic, racial, religious, or national group, and should be recognized for what it is, a system in which one plops down some minis, rolls some die, makes some *pew pew* noises and stupid jokes, wins or loses, shakes the other player's hand and leaves.
As, to the best of my knowledge, male-exclusive organs are not used to roll dice or move models around*, or any other of the actions described above, I believe that I am not alone in the opinion that it doesn't really matter what your sex is, so long as you aren't a complete douche and want to have fun blowing up model Sphezz Merheens and stuff.
*Please do not regale us with stories to the contrary.
trackanddice
04-15-2010, 04:08 AM
Yes.
Thought it might be.........
Marshal2Crusaders
04-15-2010, 06:19 AM
This conversation is ****ing ridiculous.
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
04-15-2010, 08:18 AM
How is it ridiculous? is it ridiculous if you were a woman an dbeing treated like crap in a male orientated hobby that males think they have the sole right to play with?
In my local gaming store, there are no woman there at all, one guys GF wanted to play but with all the ego's, and crap that goes around she was put off for being a woman. This coming from guys who know the hobby, exploit it and love it all in one.
I dont blame woman for wanting to not play there, they treat woman like idiots, and dont think they can play, paint and love the game like them. I dont even bother playing there with the way they treat even other people that are not the loved regulars.
Its such a ridiculous thing when people like you dont want to understand how it is for some to not be let it to this hobby that males claim and think they have a right to push around, verbal abuse and yes as some have said, physical assault.
Guess it just challenges there male minds, inferiority and makes them nervous to lose to a woman.
For you Marshel2Criusaders to say that, just proves my point.
Subject Keyword
04-15-2010, 09:56 AM
I'll agree that for a lot of men I know, girlfriends and wives stomp all over their hobby.
But if you think explaining wargaming to women is hard, TRY BEING GAY.
Seriously. I've gone on dates with women who looked like they were using every bit of restraint to not walk out when I told them I liked to spend all my free time sitting and playing plastic space men with a load of teenage boys. They're like "What's the point? Is this really an interesting way to spend your time? With immature men?" To which my natural reply is a rant on the fact that gaming and nerdism in general does NOT equal immature.
After one such botched date I was at my favorite hobbyshop when my opponent's girlfriend walked in swinging her car keys and looking around to see if any women outside the shop could see her. She comes up behind him and wraps her arms around him and goes
"Are you playing with your dolls again sweety? I wish you would grow out of this. It's so childish."
She looks up at me and notices my barely noticeable breasts. She might as well have seen freakin' Cthulhu sitting across from her boyfriend for the look on her face.
"Wait... Girls play this game?" Her boyfriend puts his face in his palms. She prances over to my side of the table.
"Good! Maybe I can get some feminine perspective! Why do you grown people play with toys?" I can feel my eye twitching. "did you guys just never grow up? How can any of you get dates? Is it because you can't pay for them because it would cut into your doll budget?" She bends over, tugging on the bottom of her shirt to wriggle her tatas out a little farther in front of all the men in the store, and squints at my Necrons.
"Why do you spend so much time painting these? What's the point? You're not really accomplishing anything. I just don't have that much time for toys..."
At this point I loose my cool.
"Gee..." I say dryly "You sure seem to have time to paint your face pretty elaborately every morning. At least I have to foresight to not wash off my favorite toy every night." Her beet red boyfriend looks up, stifling a giggle.
"What?" She flares up a bit.
"Well, at least when I paint a Troll I'm trying to make it look like a Troll and not like a prostitute..."
She turns white and comes to what is, of course, her only logical conclusion.
"Are you trying to steal my boyfriend?!?"
"Nope. You know why? CUZ I'M A FREAKIN' KWEEUH!!!" She backs away.
"So it's a dyke hobby now?!!" At this point, half the store stands up and points towards the door, shouting "OUT!"
She goes "Fine! I don't have time for you f*ckers anyway!" She glares at her laughing boyfriend.
YOU! IN THE CAR, NOW!" He chokes out a "No" and she stands, baffled.
"What?!"
At this point, someone stands up and shouts "FOR THE EMPEROR!!!" Prompting the entire hobbyshop to get up and bum rush her screaming "WAAAAAAGH!"
She prances swiftly out the door to the cheers of twenty happy geeks.
I look at my opponent and say "I won't murder your troops with this Monolith if you break up with her."
"Deal." He snorts.
Man that was a cathartic day...
Seriously, though. All the boys at my local shop are wonderful and tolerant.
I love them.
Gnoblar with Pointy Stick
04-15-2010, 10:06 AM
Seriously, though. All the boys at my local shop are wonderful and tolerant.
I love them.
Awww! Are you talking about me? Shucks...:D
That psycho deserved more then a quick "waaagh" out the door. She always drove me crazy.
I've found Tyranids to be a particular favorite of the female gamers I know (of which there are plenty).
I don't game in sexist environments. Ever.
And I react to getting my *** handed to me by a girl the same way I do when a boy does it.
By buying them an energy drink and politely asking for a rematch sometime in the future.:cool:
Marshal2Crusaders
04-15-2010, 12:19 PM
How is it ridiculous? is it ridiculous if you were a woman an dbeing treated like crap in a male orientated hobby that males think they have the sole right to play with?
In my local gaming store, there are no woman there at all, one guys GF wanted to play but with all the ego's, and crap that goes around she was put off for being a woman. This coming from guys who know the hobby, exploit it and love it all in one.
I dont blame woman for wanting to not play there, they treat woman like idiots, and dont think they can play, paint and love the game like them. I dont even bother playing there with the way they treat even other people that are not the loved regulars.
Its such a ridiculous thing when people like you dont want to understand how it is for some to not be let it to this hobby that males claim and think they have a right to push around, verbal abuse and yes as some have said, physical assault.
Guess it just challenges there male minds, inferiority and makes them nervous to lose to a woman.
For you Marshel2Criusaders to say that, just proves my point.
Its ridiculous women cant do what they want without someone pointing out they are a woman.
Melissia
04-15-2010, 12:52 PM
I agree, but there's still the occasional person posting in this thread trying to claim "this isn't a woman's hobby so get out", even if they don't use the same words. Naturally, being net denizens, we all want to bash them for being... well... I dunno if I can complete that thought without getting another warning.
Marshal2Crusaders
04-15-2010, 01:10 PM
Its OK, Mel.
http://www.cslacker.com/images/file/mediums/internet_high-five.jpg
Commissar Lewis
04-15-2010, 06:38 PM
Subject Keyword, that is the best thing I've read all day, imagining a store of people chasing a belligerent ***** out with a resounding WAAAGH.... Man I'd pay to see that, I really would.
Still, she was way off base though, and you were right - she had no right to be tearin' into people for what they enjoy. IMO maturity is accepting that other people like different things and not get on their case about one perceiving it as immature. Immaturity I believe is belittling others for what they enjoy.
Sorry to hear she was such a ***** to you. But hey, Lady Karma always gives those people what they got comin'.
Another Random Geek
04-15-2010, 07:02 PM
At this point, someone stands up and shouts "FOR THE EMPEROR!!!" Prompting the entire hobbyshop to get up and bum rush her screaming "WAAAAAAGH!"
She prances swiftly out the door to the cheers of twenty happy geeks.
I look at my opponent and say "I won't murder your troops with this Monolith if you break up with her."
"Deal." He snorts.
Man that was a cathartic day...
Seriously, though. All the boys at my local shop are wonderful and tolerant.
I love them.
Well, can we all at least agree, despite whatever other petty arguments we may have, that the Emperor was smiling upon that hobby shop that day?
Subject Keyword
04-16-2010, 09:48 AM
Well, can we all at least agree, despite whatever other petty arguments we may have, that the Emperor was smiling upon that hobby shop that day?
Yes. He was smiling.
And laughing. Laughing his *** off.
Commissar Lewis
04-16-2010, 07:30 PM
That still makes me laugh. Woe betide those who face a horde of 40k gamers all bellowing WAAAGH!
Be good psychological warfare if nothing else.
Madness
04-17-2010, 04:06 AM
I have the perfect irrational answer.
Men are from mars, women are from venus. And there's no Mechanicus on venus.
Gooball
04-17-2010, 05:05 AM
That makes sort-of sense.. mabye?
Melissia
04-17-2010, 09:55 AM
I have the perfect irrational answer.
Men are from mars, women are from venus. And there's no Mechanicus on venus.
Actually there probably is....
Commissar Lewis
04-17-2010, 08:32 PM
Actually I have been to Venus and there is indeed a small Mechanicus outpost there.
That or that was a dream I had after too much vodka and gin one night.
aemzed
04-28-2010, 03:51 AM
I hate the attention I get when I go into a GW store. I guess some girls like it, some hate it. Even threads like these draw attention to us!
LET US GO UNNOTICED!
I don't think I could ever play a tournament unless I went incognito. Sad, isn't it?
Commissar Lewis
04-28-2010, 04:33 AM
I hate the attention I get when I go into a GW store. I guess some girls like it, some hate it. Even threads like these draw attention to us!
LET US GO UNNOTICED!
I don't think I could ever play a tournament unless I went incognito. Sad, isn't it?
I think it's because female GW gamers are a rarity, which raises attention. Much like a guy wearing an Iron Maiden shirt in a Victoria's Secret store.
gwensdad
04-28-2010, 08:20 AM
I think it's because female GW gamers are a rarity, which raises attention. Much like a guy wearing an Iron Maiden shirt in a Victoria's Secret store.
Around here, a guy in a metal shirt at Victoria's Secret is kind of expected. (The same guy at a children's clothing store-not so much.)
Lerra
04-28-2010, 09:14 AM
I don't think I could ever play a tournament unless I went incognito. Sad, isn't it?
You'd be surprised. I went to Adepticon and it was completely a non-issue. No stares or weird questions - I was just another competitor. Hopefully you can find a group of gamers who are mature enough that it's not a big deal.
The players at Adepticon seem to be a bit older than your average crew of local players, though.
scadugenga
04-28-2010, 09:39 PM
At this point, someone stands up and shouts "FOR THE EMPEROR!!!" Prompting the entire hobbyshop to get up and bum rush her screaming "WAAAAAAGH!"
She prances swiftly out the door to the cheers of twenty happy geeks.
I look at my opponent and say "I won't murder your troops with this Monolith if you break up with her."
"Deal." He snorts.
Man that was a cathartic day...
Seriously, though. All the boys at my local shop are wonderful and tolerant.
I love them.
Ye gods above an' below, reading this made my night. I think I would've been rolling around on the floor laughing at the silly tart as she flounced out of the store...
Goodonya, and goodonyer store for that. Maybe there's hope for the gaming world yet...
aemzed
05-09-2010, 06:12 PM
I think it's because female GW gamers are a rarity, which raises attention. Much like a guy wearing an Iron Maiden shirt in a Victoria's Secret store.
Soooo.... The secret is for me to go in dressed in an Iron Maiden shirt with false mustache?
addamsfamily36
05-09-2010, 06:21 PM
I think it's because female GW gamers are a rarity, which raises attention. Much like a guy wearing an Iron Maiden shirt in a Victoria's Secret store.
I think its because there are a small to large number of guys that go to GW stores who have never had the experience of meeting a female on a social level other than their own mother. And no i'm not attacking these guys, but one of my mates at my Local GW when( i'm at home not uni ) , totally got besotted with a female gamer who came down, and he had no idea how to interact with her. He went to an all boys school and well lets just say he made a fool of himself, and she soon left as he became ultra clingy.
Schnitzel
05-09-2010, 08:12 PM
In all honesty, female gamers kind of irritate me. The show up and suddenly all eyes are on them. You can't even talk to them without them thinking you're trying to approach them. Its annoying. Almost as annoying as female Marines in a forward deployed unit.
If I'm going to talk to you, its not because of whats between your legs, its 'cause I have some topic of interest to talk about. And on that note, I guess I don't really care for associating with women much in general. Everythings always seems to boil down to us men wanting the good.
Melissia
05-09-2010, 11:42 PM
Almost as annoying as female Marines in a forward deployed unit.
At this point, I get the idea that you're either being incredibly sarcastic or... well, I can't say the other one without annoying the mods.
BuFFo
05-09-2010, 11:58 PM
In all honesty, female gamers kind of irritate me. The show up and suddenly all eyes are on them. You can't even talk to them without them thinking you're trying to approach them. Its annoying. Almost as annoying as female Marines in a forward deployed unit.
If I'm going to talk to you, its not because of whats between your legs, its 'cause I have some topic of interest to talk about. And on that note, I guess I don't really care for associating with women much in general. Everythings always seems to boil down to us men wanting the good.
Agreed.
I was in the Military, specifically in a military job that had females, and, I know exactly what you are talking about.
Personally, I have not come across many female 40k hobbyists, so I have not had the misfortune as you have when coming across an arrogant female 'for all the wrong reasons'.
The females that I see in our hobby are usually the gfs of my friends, and they, so far as I can tell, are very supportive of their bfs hobby. The ones I see are yuong, though, and haven't got that female ego trip going on yet, which is probably why they are dating my friends in the first place lol.
eldargal
05-10-2010, 01:08 AM
This is quite common. Many men can not cope with women taking the attention away from them, particularly in areas they consider 'theirs'. Hence the whole issue of making gamer women (or female soldiers, engineers, and academics even. Any woman in a male dominated area) as uncomfortable as possible in an attempt to drive them off.
Most women don't actually want all the attention, they just want to enjoy the hobby. Naturally the more idiotic males* blames the woman for the fact that all their brethren are suddenly drooling and thinking about procreation.
*Idiotic males as in idiotic members of the male sex, not males in general. Just to be clear.
In all honesty, female gamers kind of irritate me. The show up and suddenly all eyes are on them. You can't even talk to them without them thinking you're trying to approach them. Its annoying. Almost as annoying as female Marines in a forward deployed unit.
If I'm going to talk to you, its not because of whats between your legs, its 'cause I have some topic of interest to talk about. And on that note, I guess I don't really care for associating with women much in general. Everythings always seems to boil down to us men wanting the good.
DarkLink
05-10-2010, 08:32 AM
In all honesty, female gamers kind of irritate me. The show up and suddenly all eyes are on them. You can't even talk to them without them thinking you're trying to approach them. Its annoying. Almost as annoying as female Marines in a forward deployed unit.
If I'm going to talk to you, its not because of whats between your legs, its 'cause I have some topic of interest to talk about. And on that note, I guess I don't really care for associating with women much in general. Everythings always seems to boil down to us men wanting the good.
I, on the other hand, don't have the slightest clue what any of this thread is about.
So what if some women play 40k. What's the big deal?
Melissia
05-10-2010, 08:36 AM
"We can't have dem... WOMENSFULK getting into OUR hobby! Why, that might give them... IDEAS. Like... like... wearing pants! Or voting! GET THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES! We have a WITCH to burn!"
Etc etc.
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
05-10-2010, 09:32 AM
A few years back (to many to name without giving away to much) i had the pleasure to watch one such male idiot try to attempt to annoy, abuse, chastise and be downright immoral to her in the vein attempt to make her leave a gaming club.
Now not only did she smile back and meet his his rudeness with polite talk (making said guy even more annoyed) but systemetically destroy his unbeaten Chaos Marine army with her Blood Angels, then when he just got nasty and callled her a cheat and to Pi@# off from the club, she actually picked the guy up and threw him threw a door.
Did i mention.....oops she was a female weightlifter.
Said guy never said anything after that and just refused to get his tail whipped again by her BA's, so he never played her again. Since that day he was always very polite to any female who came to play or spectate.
Male pigs who treat woman badly in there so called hobby need a kind reminder thats its not a male orientated game but is open to anyone.
Me, ive never had problems with female gamers around where i play. Though i agree they get misunderstood by guys lacking in intelligence in how to treat woman.
BuFFo
05-10-2010, 10:54 AM
Male pigs who treat woman badly in there so called hobby need a kind reminder thats its not a male orientated game but is open to anyone.
Just to be clear, Warhammer 40k IS a male oriented game, but that does not make it a male ONLY game!
GW made a marketing attempt to appeal to female gamers back in, what, 1995ish, when they planned out a new 'female marine' army. By looking at the female gamers on BoLs, most of which I have noticed play Sisters of Battles (not Witch Hunters lol) the plan seemed to work to some small extent.
A friend of mine from many years ago loved her Sisters because they were an icon of female strength in a war dominated environment. To see an army of 'regular' women go toe to toe and beat 'genetically super human' males was something she liked very much.
Schnitzel
05-10-2010, 01:55 PM
I realize I've caused a flurry of responses here... Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against women. I treat them politely at all times and everything, I just find many to be annoying.
While I don't have any females in my gaming group, that I know of at least, my remarks were based off of what I've observed in the store as they play other games and off my experience in the Marine Corps.
I don't believe 40k is a mens only game, nor do I support that idea. I welcome any female who wants to partake in this delightful hobby to come on in. What I do not support is arrogant women who think I'm talking to them for all the wrong reasons. Hence I tend to gravitate away from them in general.
Melissia
05-10-2010, 02:04 PM
So basically you're saying all female gamers are arrogant.
Do I really NEED to say why that statement is damning?
edit: And yes, that is basically what you're saying. You're acting as if there's no other type with the way you word your posts.
Schnitzel
05-10-2010, 03:20 PM
So basically you're saying all female gamers are arrogant.
Do I really NEED to say why that statement is damning?
edit: And yes, that is basically what you're saying. You're acting as if there's no other type with the way you word your posts.
Can you quote me verbatim saying that all female gamers are arrogant? No. If you go back and READ what I said, you'll see that its what I've observed. No where do I even hint at all female gamers being the same.
I did however say how I welcome female gamers and that I am polite to them.
Now do you really want to continue this? Honestly, you can try to distort my words all you want to paint me in a bad light, but you're only making yourself look foolish.
Melissia
05-10-2010, 03:26 PM
No I can't. English is more than just what is literally in a sentence; a sentence, a paragraph, etc, can be worded in such a way as never to directly say an idea, but to get it across anyway. You may not have intended it even, but that is what came across in your post.
It especially doesn't help when you make seemingly trolling comments like your references to "female space marines", which is never a subject one should willingly bring up without expecting something bad to come out of it :)
Commissar Lewis
05-10-2010, 04:42 PM
Wow, I'm gone for a couple days and all hell breaks loose... *sigh* A commissar's work is never done....
Schnitzel
05-10-2010, 05:11 PM
It especially doesn't help when you make seemingly trolling comments like your references to "female space marines", which is never a subject one should willingly bring up without expecting something bad to come out of it :)
*Sigh*
That was not a comment about female space marines, it was a comment about females in the US Marine Corps. Hence the comment about forward deployed unit, aka: Okinawa, Korea or the Philippines. If you look at my avatar you'll notice the USMC Colors.
Also, notice how Buffo commented about his military experience? Subtle hints...
Melissia
05-10-2010, 05:20 PM
1: Dude, you're on a Warhammer 40,000 forum. "Female marine" has specific meanings here, meanings which invoke long and quite frequently lulzworthy debate threads. Threads which frequently border on flame wars, or just outright break out into flame wars.
2: Nope. I have Buffo on my ignore list. And he's the only one on it.
Schnitzel
05-10-2010, 05:28 PM
Point taken. I can't expect every one to have the same mindset as me and think Marine = USMC and marine = space marine. I coulda thought that one out a bit better. :P
Hopefully I don't pop up on that list too. I'm a nice guy. Honest.
Melissia
05-10-2010, 05:29 PM
Naw, it's okay. Sorry for misreading your post. Just that every time I think "Female Space Marine" I think "oh god, the trolls are coming out of the woodwork again..."
Schnitzel
05-10-2010, 07:25 PM
Naw, it's okay. Sorry for misreading your post. Just that every time I think "Female Space Marine" I think "oh god, the trolls are coming out of the woodwork again..."
Its alright, when I read female space marine I pretend my eyes actually saw the words "sisters of battle". (JK, JK!)
eldargal
05-10-2010, 08:49 PM
To be fair, I find around 80% of women, gamers or not, irritating. It might have something to do with them loathing me on sight.
Schnitzel, bear in mind that most of the attention these girls will get when they turn up to a gamer group will be of that nature, its understandable that they start to make assumptions.
Melissia
05-10-2010, 09:10 PM
I find most gamers in general to be kinda irritating to spend more than an hour with. One gets used to it I suppose.
Commissar Lewis
05-10-2010, 09:32 PM
Not gamers only, people in general can be quite the irritation. But that's not all people, just the fools, clowns, trolls, idiots, mimes, people who talk in movie theatres, telemarketers*, and armed assailants.
* telemarketers have their own special level of hell, along with child abusers.
But the good outweighs the bad in terms of people. Now back to yelling at the machine spirit of my not-working other PC.
DarkLink
05-10-2010, 10:29 PM
Point taken. I can't expect every one to have the same mindset as me and think Marine = USMC and marine = space marine. I coulda thought that one out a bit better. :P
I usually can't bring myself to write marine. Always Marine. Force of habit. By association, I often do the same thing for Soldier and the like, though not as commonly.
Not gamers only, people in general can be quite the irritation. But that's not all people, just the fools, clowns, trolls, idiots, mimes, people who talk in movie theatres, telemarketers*, and armed assailants.
* telemarketers have their own special level of hell, along with child abusers.
But the good outweighs the bad in terms of people. Now back to yelling at the machine spirit of my not-working other PC.
There's a very, very noticeable difference between many of the engineering and science majors at my college and the liberal arts majors. One group is hardworking, responsible and productive (for the most part). The other parties and complains about how hard their classes are (once again, for the most part):p.
I'll let you guess which group acts which way;).
Regardless, I tend to be polite but otherwise ignore people I don't get along with, unless they start actively bugging me. It works very well. No one's ever bugged me enough for it to become a problem.
And our gaming group is fantastic. We have one or two "characters", but no one I'd refuse to play against. And there are surprisingly few anti-social nerds in the group. In fact, really none of us are. Always surprises my other friends when they see how normal our group appears, aside from the plastic war-barbies.
Commissar Lewis
05-10-2010, 10:48 PM
Yeah, I generally am fairly sociable and easy going, unless someone starts proverbially poking the bear. Then my tirades of insults oft leave em speechless. My philosophy is: be courteous and decent with me, and I'll do the same. **** with me and anger me, and it's open season on you.
But yeah, there are some gamer archetypes that make the hobby rather forboding.
BuFFo
05-11-2010, 12:43 AM
2: Nope. I have Buffo on my ignore list. And he's the only one on it.
Glee!
No wonder she wasn't ignorantly commenting on my posts anymore.
Life could not be better.
Necrosis
05-11-2010, 12:52 AM
Buffo are all your post useless and have no meaning what so ever.
You know what I'm putting you on my ignore list.
Schnitzel
05-11-2010, 04:18 AM
Buffo, in lieu of you making the rolls of two ignore lists, I'm putting you on the top of my Anti-Ignore list! And I shall dub it, my fun list! :P
Kahoolin
05-11-2010, 05:23 AM
There's a very, very noticeable difference between many of the engineering and science majors at my college and the liberal arts majors. One group is hardworking, responsible and productive (for the most part). The other parties and complains about how hard their classes are (once again, for the most part).
I'll let you guess which group acts which way.Which one are you I wonder? ;)
I think we can all agree though that people can be jerks no matter what group they are a part of. I once went to the science library to get a book about AI for an essay I was writing and when I sat down at the desk there was a wall of graffiti insulting arts majors. It genuinely made me sad when I saw "arts students **** off!" carved into the desk.
There may have been a lot of nonsense written on the tables in the arts library (A LOT of nonsense :rolleyes:), but I never once saw any harrasment of science students.
Ah well, we all have different experiences eh :)
And our gaming group is fantastic. We have one or two "characters", but no one I'd refuse to play against. And there are surprisingly few anti-social nerds in the group. In fact, really none of us are. Always surprises my other friends when they see how normal our group appears, aside from the plastic war-barbies.You know I often find "normal" people involved in geeky hobbies these days. I think it's because what used to be called geeky is becoming normal. It's not that geeks are getting socially more adept, but that the average person is getting less socially adept, making the geeks seem more average. Maybe.
Melissia
05-11-2010, 07:56 AM
Which one are you I wonder? ;)
The slacker group, obviously!
But I jest, there's that kind of complaint where I am, too. The nursing school part of my college is somewhat famous, so those students are often seen as "normal" because there's more of them. So people claim they're hard-working and stuff, while the other ones (such as science students lol) are lazy.
Buffo, in lieu of you making the rolls of two ignore lists, I'm putting you on the top of my Anti-Ignore list! And I shall dub it, my fun list! :P
If you define fun as "let's troll instead of posting the intelligent posts everyone knows we're capable of", I suppose so...
BuFFo
05-11-2010, 11:28 AM
Buffo, in lieu of you making the rolls of two ignore lists, I'm putting you on the top of my Anti-Ignore list! And I shall dub it, my fun list! :P
I hope I make more ignore lists.
When BoLs first opened up this forum, it was a haven from the trolls and flame baiters from Warseer, 40konline and other major 40k websites.
As news of this forum spread, a forum with next to NO forum behavior rules whatsoever (still to this day), the trolls started 'a coming.
Case in point, my off topic response here to your off topic response. On any other forum, these would have been deleted, and rightfully so, as to keep the integrity of the thread clean and concise, but the Lounge is 99% off topic responses. (my percentage may be 50% off, and I am sure there is a 80% chance of that)
But I digress. The people that put me on ignore are the ones who cannot accept opinions outside their own, and the less they interact with me, the better, because I enjoy engaging in intelligent debate with open minded individuals who understand the basic concepts of respect and manners, of which both have been sorely lacking since the WWW was opened.
Which, oddly enough, on a thread about female gamers and acceptance, there sure isn't a whole lot going on around here on the female gamer's side in the Lounge.
Lerra
05-11-2010, 12:21 PM
I think the problem is that most people are annoying. Most people have only met a small number of female gamers, and odds are pretty good that they were annoying. Annoying guys don't stick out becaues they blend in with the crowd of other annoying guys. Annoying females stick out in your memory.
DarkLink
05-11-2010, 06:21 PM
Which one are you I wonder?
I think we can all agree though that people can be jerks no matter what group they are a part of. I once went to the science library to get a book about AI for an essay I was writing and when I sat down at the desk there was a wall of graffiti insulting arts majors. It genuinely made me sad when I saw "arts students **** off!" carved into the desk.
There may have been a lot of nonsense written on the tables in the arts library (A LOT of nonsense :rolleyes:), but I never once saw any harrasment of science students.
Ah well, we all have different experiences eh :)
You know I often find "normal" people involved in geeky hobbies these days. I think it's because what used to be called geeky is becoming normal. It's not that geeks are getting socially more adept, but that the average person is getting less socially adept, making the geeks seem more average. Maybe.
The slacker group, obviously!
But I jest, there's that kind of complaint where I am, too. The nursing school part of my college is somewhat famous, so those students are often seen as "normal" because there's more of them. So people claim they're hard-working and stuff, while the other ones (such as science students lol) are lazy.
Yeah, a friend of mine is in Landscape Architecture. Freshman year, she got so tired of the Architecture students making fun of her for being LA that she moved to a different dorm (I think she has other roommate issues, too).
And, yes, I should have been studying for my Reinforced Concrete Design midterm instead of posting:rolleyes:.
I hope I make more ignore lists.
I'll ignore you for $5 :D /joke/
ratgirl
05-12-2010, 02:09 PM
So I'm a girl gamer. In our group of friends I'm the only wife/girlfriend who plays, and I don't play in tournaments. I play skaven (if you didn't guess) and orks. I do see some of our friends whose significant others hold them back from playing, but mostly they think I'm sort of an oddity and I get a fairly positive response.
Had one fellow who didn't like to play me, but I think that's because he didn't know plague monks had frenzy until he charged them with his vampire counts and they didn't run away immediately. ;)
Ratgirl
Melissia
05-12-2010, 02:46 PM
Heh. I always wanted to play Skaven.
With a Chieftain dressed like a ninja
He will be a batman clone, hissing out "I'm Ratmaaaaaan" when he kills a model.
Commissar Lewis
05-13-2010, 12:25 AM
That would be awesome, Melissia.
Gotthammer
05-13-2010, 09:20 AM
Heh. I always wanted to play Skaven.
With a Chieftain dressed like a ninja
He will be a batman clone, hissing out "I'm Ratmaaaaaan" when he kills a model.
Ikit Claw (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat240005a&prodId=prod1140219)? Though he's definately more samurai he is the boss of Clan Eshin.
Melissia
05-13-2010, 09:27 AM
Probably a converted assassin model.
Old_Paladin
05-13-2010, 12:53 PM
Ikit Claw (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat240005a&prodId=prod1140219)? Though he's definately more samurai he is the boss of Clan Eshin.
Not to go all nerdy, but...
Ikit Claw is the second in command of Clan Skryre.
The Deathmaster is second in command of Eshin (he's the one with the triple weeping blades).
Gotthammer
05-13-2010, 01:20 PM
Nerdy? On a wargaiming forum? Bah! ;)
I stand corrected, I guess I shouldn't rely on my memories from when the guy was first released...
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