Manouverability

[Cyberscape7]

Well I've started this thread to combat my greatest weakness in 40k. I'm sure many people share it; you look at a units strengths in the dex, you think I know exactly how to use it in battle. But no plan survives combat with the enemy. In fact I don't even make contact with the enemy. What I'm always finding is I'm constantly being out-manouvered by the enemy. I'm honestly not sure how to move my models. so what I really need some advice on is this; how should you move different types of units across the field of battle? e.g. cc specialists, close range shooting specialist, fast assault vehicles. Everything. I need help:(

[BuFFo]

Let's start simple...

What army are you using?

[fuzzbuket]

if your using eldar some cunning triks and knowing 6' by eye can help... lets take avengers 18' catapults 6' is the diffrence between you not getting charged or shot at

200 pts on 10 scorpians will save you 1000 pts on wave serpents

give everything 2 roles.. my fire prisims with star engins kill more by ramming enemy tanks :P

[Master Bryss]

What he DIDN'T tell you is he started this thread because I plan to double my Raider count...

First off, learning to use reserves tactically is a huge advantage. If you know your Guardian squad is pretty much useless early game and is going to be obliterated the second I plonk a Warrior squad on your objective, reserve them. That way, they'll survive and you'll get more use out of them. Obvously this doesn't help your manoeverablity but it will give you a counter againt the enemy's.

Secondly, protect what mobility you have. If you have one Trukk full of combat guys, do not simply point them in one direction from the word go. Manoevre your transport effectively to keep out of range and use the guys in it in turn 2-3.

Thirdly, if you know your opponent moves better than you do, hit the fast units first. Mid-range infantry and combat units are more useful later on and not a large threat in the very first turn. And always go second when your opponent moves better, and hide.

You could also buy more transport or JI but this requires money and the other three suggestions don't.

In short, if you're not as mobile just work to put your opponent into the same position.

[BuFFo]

Where are you guys getting that he is playing Eldar? Because if he is, then Mobility isn't even an issue.

[gcsmith]

I assume they are guessing as mobility is key to Playing Eldar where as armies such as guard and marines can just smash their way into victory. Obviously this is comparative to each other and should not be seen as 100% views of each race.

[Master Bryss]

BuFFo, I know he plays Eldar (Orks, Tyranids, Marines and Necrons also) because I know and play him. I also know that mobility isn't an issue in a perfect competitive world where everything's in a Wave Serpent or other transport. But that's not really our style. I think the real question is 'how to move footdar effectively.'

Well, general infantry really. And deployment strategy comes in handy too.

[fuzzbuket]

for footdar a nice big distraction AKA scorpions.. 1 wave serpent.. wraith-lords.. hawks .. knadras all running towards the enemy should give your eldar enough time to get within 182 and behind enough terrain to bring the hurt down :D

[AbusePuppy]

Playing Footdar and then asking for help with mobility is like shooting yourself in the chest and then asking for medical assistance.

The most basic question for mobility is "where do I want to be?", along with the related question "where does my opponent want to be (in relation to me)?" Answer that and you have a good start on determining how your army wants to move. Traditional Eldar (i.e. mech with Serpents/Falcons/Prisms) wants to be 23.9" away from the enemy in most cases. It seeks to divide the enemy forces into isolated parts and then annihilate them one at a time. If the enemy refuses to divide itself, it avoids engagement, causes damage from outside their reach, and takes the majority of objectives in the final turn.

He's asking some incredibly broad questions here, which make it very hard to give a meaningful answer. You might as well ask "How do I play this game well?" and hope to get an answer here, really. Write a battle report, take pictures, ask what you did wrong- that's the best way to figure this out, I think.

[Cyberscape7]

First off I would like to apologise for being too vauge in my question but thank you for trying to answer.
To be more specific; I am talking about eldar for this thread. Unlike my other armies I can't throw them at the enemy like frag grenades and as Bryss mentioned my only transports are a falcon and wave serpent. I have a fair amount of foot eldar and I plan to bulk out with more DA and guardians. What my question really is; How do you use an eldar force effectiveley with little transport?
Basically my eldar force consists of;
Farseer, Avatar, 6Banshees, 6Dragons, 6Scorps, 10DA, 10Guardians(+warlock),5 Rangers, 6Hawks, 5Reapers, Wraithlord, Falcon and wave serpent.

[slobulous]

I don't want to discourage you but a footslogging Eldar army is, quite honestly, going against how the Eldar are meant to be played. Eldar are fragile, but they have speed to make up for it. A footslogging army needs to either have tough, durable troops, or a lot of numbers. They need to be able to take the pounding that they WILL recieve as they trudge across the table. Eldar do not have durability nor great numbers. By footslogging, you are now fragile AND slow. I believe it is time for you to update your army to match the general playstyle of 5th edition, which involves much more mobility than previous editions.

[Mal]

I don't want to discourage you but a footslogging Eldar army is, quite honestly, going against how the Eldar are meant to be played. Eldar are fragile, but they have speed to make up for it. A footslogging army needs to either have tough, durable troops, or a lot of numbers. They need to be able to take the pounding that they WILL recieve as they trudge across the table. Eldar do not have durability nor great numbers. By footslogging, you are now fragile AND slow. I believe it is time for you to update your army to match the general playstyle of 5th edition, which involves much more mobility than previous editions.

This is true... to a degree.

However its is also true that the majority of 40k players now days are reasonably well adapted to dealing with mobile armies... so the sudden shift in tactics required to take on a foot army should be enough to give you a small advantage... beyond that, its up to your unit choices, overall stragety and tactics to capatalise on that advantage.

What makes a unit good isn't just what it can do, but also what it does to the concentration and battle plan of your opponent.

[Tynskel]

an eldar foot army can be quite impressive. Heavy weapons teams, guardians, and an Avatar to 'guide' them can make a serious opponent.

All jetbikes and serpents is not the only way--- I have seen all foot eldar kick butt.

[DarkLink]

I don't want to discourage you but a footslogging Eldar army is, quite honestly, going against how the Eldar are meant to be played. Eldar are fragile, but they have speed to make up for it. A footslogging army needs to either have tough, durable troops, or a lot of numbers. They need to be able to take the pounding that they WILL recieve as they trudge across the table. Eldar do not have durability nor great numbers. By footslogging, you are now fragile AND slow. I believe it is time for you to update your army to match the general playstyle of 5th edition, which involves much more mobility than previous editions.

You missed the whole debate over footdar lists, didn't you. As Tynskel said, they can actually be really nasty, and have actually done pretty well in tournaments lately.

[Mal]

Espically footdar backed by eldrad... that can be quite nasty, and most players are simply not equipped to deal with it.... after all AT weaponry may kill a landraider in one shot... but it'll only kill a single guardian, and thats if they are not in cover...

[Tynskel]

Eldrad is good for Eldar Foot Armies.

I have seen him and an Avatar for HQ. Then throw in a squad of Wraithguard and 3 Wraithlords with missile and bright lance. Then just a mixture of guardians with hv weapons and an Elite choice. I think that's around 1500. If you are going to 1850 or 2000, one can easily expand to scorpions for infiltrators and warp spiders for deep strikers. 4 monsterous creatures and lots of guys... almost sounds like a bug army!

[AbusePuppy]

First off I would like to apologise for being too vauge in my question but thank you for trying to answer.
To be more specific; I am talking about eldar for this thread. Unlike my other armies I can't throw them at the enemy like frag grenades and as Bryss mentioned my only transports are a falcon and wave serpent. I have a fair amount of foot eldar and I plan to bulk out with more DA and guardians. What my question really is; How do you use an eldar force effectiveley with little transport?
Basically my eldar force consists of;
Farseer, Avatar, 6Banshees, 6Dragons, 6Scorps, 10DA, 10Guardians(+warlock),5 Rangers, 6Hawks, 5Reapers, Wraithlord, Falcon and wave serpent.

1. How effective are we talking here? Do you want to win tournaments, or do you just want to not get rolled when you go out for a casual game?

2. More DA probably aren't going to help the list- alongside mobility there is also the issue of "reach," i.e. how far away you can affect the enemy. If you can't do anything to them beyond 18", you are going to be in real trouble against melee armies and such.

3. Swooping Hawks are just awful. I'm really, really sorry, but they are. The best you can hope for is yo-yoing in and out, dropping grenades on people- and that's paying over a hundred points for a S4 AP5 blast each turn. (Hint: A Basilisk costs about the same, but is S9 AP3 and Ordnance Barrage.) The first step to doing well is going to be losing them so you aren't getting weighed down.

4. Two vehicles in a list like this is just gonna be trouble- they'll be the focus of all the enemy's AT fire. You want to take a lot of targets of the same type so the enemy doesn't have enough guns to shoot them all. Avatar, 2 Wraithlords and a Falcon could work reasonably well in this way. A second Wave Serpent might also be useful, but not strictly necessary; basically, I would strongly suggest upping the total monstrous creature plus vehicle count to 5+, or drop them altogether.

5. Too much diversity of units. I know they look cool and are very neat to have a wide selection to pick from, but you have (for example) only one unit that can realistically kill transports, the Fire Dragons. You want multiple units in the same role, even if they aren't the same actual unit. As it is, you have just a wide smattering of different things that do different jobs and your army has very little focus.

6. Guardians with Weapon Platforms are one of the few good things about Footdar- they're fragile as all get out and have crap for leadership, but it IS a mobile heavy weapon. Scatter Laser can be nice for shutting down low-AV vehicles (Orks, DE, etc) and is cheap; the multiple shots help compensate for shoddy BS. Missile Launcher is probably your next best bet, unless I'm remembering wrong and that isn't one of the options. Do not underestimate the ability to move 6" and shoot.

7. Scorpions also seem like a weak link; nothing else in your army infiltrates, so they'll end up all alone and get trashed very easily. Harlequins are a better way to run a killer assault unit (they are also superior to Banshees, as it happens), especially if you have Doom on your Farseer, which you totally should. They are also a good place to hide the Farseer himself, as it can be very awkward for the enemy to target them and 4+ cover or 5+ invuln being rerolled is rather tough to break through except by dumping tons of shots into it.

8. If you're looking to expand and want to stay in the foot theme, I would heavily recommend more Guardians with HWs, another Wraithlord, and Harlequins as your superior choices. Don't take DA, they just aren't that good.

You'll notice that I didn't talk about mobility or any of that much. The reason is pretty simple: list first, then tactics. There's no point in learning to play a bad list well, and whatever I may think of Footdar, that list didn't even optimize its strengths. You wouldn't learn to shoot on a gun with broken sights and you shouldn't try to learn to play with an army that doesn't work right, either; now, there's something to be said for letting folks learn for themselves what works and what doesn't, but there's also something to be said for giving help when it's asked for.

In terms of how to use the army, I would say you need to be doing a couple things. First, keep to cover; without it, your fragile elf bodies are dead meat. Second, make sure you have long-range firepower. If they can outmove you- and most every army will, since you're on foot- you need to outrange them. Third, stay together. Eldar rely on synergy between their units; Harlequins and Wraithlords charge units that get in close while Reapers and weapon platforms pound things at a distance. You're also making extensive use of your Fearless bubble and the buffs handed out by the Farseer, so don't stray too far.

Edit: Pathfinders(Rangers) are also useful shooting units. Build a firebase around them and harass enemy infantry. Make sure to remember that pinning check.

[Lupercal]

You seem to be collecting the same way I did when I started Eldar: one of each unit, to try them out. However, there does come a point when it's time to concentrate on one or 2 things. For me, using the descriptions of the major Craftworlds helped me get some focus. I ended up with 21 Rangers in my army, but otherwise still had one of each unit. I still play this army successfully ten years later, though not in tournaments.

In my opinion, you could use a bit more maneuverability while keeping with the footdar idea. Try adding a squadron of 2 or 3 Vypers for mobile fire support. A unit of Jetbikes, even a small one, can have at least 1 Shuriken Cannon and is very mobile as well. Also, I can't say enough about using Pathfinders (Rangers): they aren't very mobile, but their 36" range really lets them reach out and touch someone with their deadly shooting. I usually use 2 units of 5 Pathfinders in cover with open fields of fire. The pinning tests they cause will really frustrate your opponent.

In regard to AT, don't forget that your Hawks have haywire grenades. Unreliable, but they can be useful in a pinch.

Maximize your advantage in access to long range heavy weapons. One of your best defenses is your ability to kill the enemy before they are in range to kill you.

Warp Spiders are nice as well. A box of 6 will get you 14 shots at Str. 6. Use them as a diversionary force, deep strike them behind the enemy and whittle them down. They have some of the best armor in the codex, so if they get assaulted they can often tie a unit up for a round or 2. You also have the option of making that second jump if you need to, or of giving them hit and run to get out of those assaults.

Finally, the Avatar is a must. Eldrad is great, but I do well enough without him. He is an inexpensive (money-wise) way to kick your army up a notch.

[fuzzbuket]

id drop the avatar for a phienox lord.. a 6' melta gun that cant join squads is a HUGE target however either kandras/ asurmen or fuegan could boost your army.

however ive never seen 2 identicaleldar lists.. (- tourney net lists)

as everyone thinks diffrently and views synergy diffrently... some love hawks some will never leave wraithguard or avengers... some will always have a seer council.. others wont


olay a game agains a balanced army or your most usual opponent (e.g. army testing vs nidzilla is silly)

once played (game/turn/phase) think what unit should i have used.. then arfter the game re write your list then visulise a game in your head.. rinse and repeat.

people like ****/ goatboy/ darkwyn and jawaballs didnt become gaming gods by net lists or others lists they became good due to trial and error and thinking about how you could improve.

/rant over

-fuzz

[Master Bryss]

@'Scape: You forgot your Vyper mate.

@fuzzbuket: Ah, but the Avatar is also cheaper, and gives other benefits.

@Abusepuppy: I completely disagree with the point on lists. There is no such thing as a bad list so long as you have a decent chance of killing everything in the game, or you want to win a competitive tournament. The main point here is not being tabled completely in a casual game. Also, Dire Avengers are decent if monouse, but I'm sure that you can cope fine casually without all units having duality in some way.

As for your other points, I agree here. I've been telling him how good Harlies are for ages.

[Mal]

avengers have their uses... espically if they are lucky enough to catch a CC choppy unit in the open after they killed something...

I've had a unit of wyches left high and dry after rolling a 1 for my consolidation move after killing off an avatar and a small unit of banshees... they promptly got bladestormed, I was lucky that my opponent couldn't roll a successful hit to save his life... but even so they put out enough shots that I only had 2 regular wyches left alive... ofc when he charged in I beat him in combat and run him down when he broke... but they were doing well up until then :p

[Cyberscape7]

I notice a few mentions of harleys. Now tbh, I have nothing against them! They ARE good! however buying them would break my rule. Until the GW see sense and built plastic models I will not buy any more of the following boxes:
Rangers, Harleys, Hawks and wraithguard.
They should be plastic.
Now I like fuzz's idea of trial and error. I think the next time I can get a game in with my eldar I'm going to use my favourite list and try and understand all the pros and cons of it.
In fact I was doing a test game and (I'm a BIG DoG fan) one thing I have learned NEVER to do;
DoG with a wraithlord, never ends well...

[lowdog]

avengers have their uses... espically if they are lucky enough to catch a CC choppy unit in the open after they killed something...


Absolutely. Even worse/better with Doom. I've seen Avengers bladestorm doomed squads of gaunts and orks of over 20-30 models and wipe them off the table.

[slobulous]

You missed the whole debate over footdar lists, didn't you. As Tynskel said, they can actually be really nasty, and have actually done pretty well in tournaments lately.

No, they can't be REALLY nasty. Not even kind of nasty. I don't care about online debates, only actual experiences on the tabletop. I have played against Eldar many times in my 12-year WH40k career, against most of their different builds and playstyles, and one thing has been very consistent; Guardian squads on foot have always been ineffective point sinks for a number of reasons that are apparent just by looking at their unit entry in the codex. They were more viable in 4th, but only marginally so, and in 5th, they are a comparatively garbage Troops choice to more recent codexes. Granted, I have not ever played against a pure infantry Eldar army with 6 full squads of them, but I have gone against 3 full squads of them plus some other things, and they got steamrolled real bad. I would assume taking away the other units to add more Guardians would just make the situation worse. If someone plopped down 6 full squads of foot guardians with heavy weapons and warlocks and the whole 9 yards, I would feel like I already had the game won. They just don't put out strong enough or accurate enough firepower, can't sustain much damage (especially when the right weapon is used against them like heavy flamers), they get slaughtered in assault, and they are as slow as any other foot infantry, so easily manouvered around. To top it all off, they are massively overpriced. No amount of attempted manouverability or fancy tactics will make up for all of their glaring weaknesses. I simply cannot respect a footdar list trying to be competitive in this edition of the game because it's a silly idea that goes against what the Eldar are supposed to be good at. It's like Tau taking tons of Kroot and trying to win in close combat.

[Mal]

Each to their own, I personally have faced some truely talented eldar players who have a preference for footdar lists... and as good as I am (I place in every event in my area), they can still make a decent fight of it...

This is not to say they don't have their weaknesses, every army does, even mechdar does. The whole point is learning to cover your weaknesses as best as you can while exploiting your opponents.
Then add in the fact that the vast majority of armies bring AT fire power over AI weaponry... and well, you just don't see all that many flamers about. Yes yes there are exceptions.. there are always exceptions, but the exceptions are not the norm.

[Lupercal]

Until the GW see sense and built plastic models I will not buy any more of the following boxes:
Rangers, Harleys, Hawks and wraithguard.
They should be plastic.

Out of curiosity, what is the issue with metal models?

You should know that economic and codex considerations will most likely preclude plastic wraithguard, rangers, and hawks. Plastic harlequins seem likely at some point, however.

Have you thought about a full squadron of War Walkers? Arm them with dual Scatter Lasers and put a Doom/Guide Farseer between them. If you Doom their target and Guide the War Walkers, you've got 24 S:6 shots which reroll hits and wounds at a range of 24". Against marines, you should average 17 wounds with the squadron at full strength. That's five dead marines, maybe six. At that point the War Walkers may not live long, but you will have whittled down the enemy and bought some time for the rest of your army. Just a thought.

[Mal]

I know why people like plastic, its easier to build, glue and convert than metal... but nothing paints up quite as nicely as metal does.

[AbusePuppy]

@'Scape: You forgot your Vyper mate.
@Abusepuppy: I completely disagree with the point on lists. There is no such thing as a bad list so long as you have a decent chance of killing everything in the game, or you want to win a competitive tournament.

Let me try and rephrase that: "There's no such thing as a bad list, as long as it's good and you don't care if you do well with it."

Does that not sound absurd to you? I realize not everyone is aiming for max competitiveness; I'm fine with that. He wants to play Footdar, and while I think that's a huge mistake, it's his decision and I tried to keep my advice within the bounds of that decision. But don't lie and convince yourself that it's "just as good" as the alternatives. When I build a Pyrovore list or an all-melee list for my Tyranids, I know I am handicapping myself; I don't pretend that I'm doing other than what I am. I think the same applies here: if you want to play a foot version of a codex that isn't really able to field a lot of "good" options, that's fine, but realize what you're doing before you dig that hole.


Out of curiosity, what is the issue with metal models?

You should know that economic and codex considerations will most likely preclude plastic wraithguard, rangers, and hawks. Plastic harlequins seem likely at some point, however.

I think I can guess: they are (especially in the case of Eldar) horribly unbalanced and impossible to assemble or keep stable. I loathe metal models with the very heart of my being because of this (GW loves to put melee units in the "leaning forward 90% over the edge of their base" pose) and because converting them in any way is a pain in the a** and potentially fatal to the modeler thanks to slipping blades, metal shavings and dust, etc. Metal models can burn in hell for all I care.

I would expect that Wraithguard and Harlies get plastic boxes if/when the new Eldar 'Dex gets released; plastic for nearly everything is largely becoming the standard these days, although there tend to be some number of metal releases mixed in for things.

[Mal]

Metal is generally being limited to special characters and the like, which makes sense since you can get a better cast from a single metal cast mold than you can from pressurised plastic molds.

Personally I like the metal, even for conversions, it may be harder and more dangerous (I have literially hundreds of scars on my hands from slipped blades), but they always come out looking really amasing. I've don;t some cracking plastics conversions, but im always happier about a well finished metal piece.

But thats my personal preference.

As for the note on the footdar list not being as powerful as other builds, yes this is true... but from what I gather, the OP isn't after a major tournament winning army, but rather something he can have fun with.
When you really get down to the bare nones of it, there are not actually all that many ultra competative army builds out there. Almost all have inherant weaknesses and flaws, lack of balance or synergy... you get the idea... few are 'perfect'...
Hell i've been writing competatie lists for well over a decade and i've yet to get one to the point where i'd call it ultra competative, granted I can cover the weaknesses well with strong tactics, but its just not the same.

[AbusePuppy]

When you really get down to the bare nones of it, there are not actually all that many ultra competative army builds out there. Almost all have inherant weaknesses and flaws, lack of balance or synergy... you get the idea... few are 'perfect'...
Hell i've been writing competatie lists for well over a decade and i've yet to get one to the point where i'd call it ultra competative, granted I can cover the weaknesses well with strong tactics, but its just not the same.

I would disagree. Every 5E book has at least three major competitive builds in it; BA, SM, and IG have significantly more than this. Every other book, except for Necrons, contains at least one "functional" build and for all codices except Daemons, Chaos, and Orks contains at least one "strong" build, in my opinion. (Chaos and Orks both work reasonably well, but are noticably below par compared to the other books. Daemons are simply poorly designed and will only work if your opponent is bad or luck swings your way.)

Of all of those, I would rate about a dozen of them as being sufficiently close to each other that it is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to tell which is "the best," if there even is a clear winner to be found.

With regards to metal models, I know some people say they prefer painting metal, but I can't for the life of me imagine why. Different strokes, I suppose.

[Master Bryss]

@Puppy:

In my 1500 Dark Eldar in the old dex, I had a grand total of 4 anti-tank weapons. It looks bad from your standpoint does it not? But from my standpoint, that is good by my defenition (it theoretically can kill all units) and I haven't lost all the games I've played with it.


You believe there are army builds that work better than others, and thats fine. But none has a glaringly obvious flaw. You may belive Footdar is flawed in that it has fewer "good options." Good from the standpoint of which level of play?

And I'm pretty sure he's aiming for hybrid anyway, not all foot.

[Mal]

puppy, there is a big difference between a popular competative build and an ultra competative build...

the fabled 'ultra competative build' is the perfect army list... a list without any flaws or weaknesses... no codex has the abality to make such a list, if it was this is all you'd see at high level competative events.

every codex has the option to put out more then 3 competative builds... it can put out as many as the players can think of... you just have to remember that the army list isn't the only factor in determining the competativeness of an army.

[AbusePuppy]

@Puppy:

In my 1500 Dark Eldar in the old dex, I had a grand total of 4 anti-tank weapons. It looks bad from your standpoint does it not? But from my standpoint, that is good by my defenition (it theoretically can kill all units) and I haven't lost all the games I've played with it.

Theoretically, almost any list can kill anything. Theoretically my Marines can punch a Leeman Russ to death, but that's not exactly a plan I would rely on. A "good" list will have flexible units that can fill multiple roles well, not just if you get lucky,



You believe there are army builds that work better than others, and thats fine. But none has a glaringly obvious flaw. You may belive Footdar is flawed in that it has fewer "good options." Good from the standpoint of which level of play?

I dunno, I call Footdar's lack of mobility and fragility "glaringly obvious flaws." It is competitive, or even functional, only at the lowest levels of play because its fundamental strategy ("I have dudes, they walk around and can sorta shoot") is not well-supported by the codex it's built from.


puppy, there is a big difference between a popular competative build and an ultra competative build...

the fabled 'ultra competative build' is the perfect army list... a list without any flaws or weaknesses... no codex has the abality to make such a list, if it was this is all you'd see at high level competative events.

Hence why I don't think there is any single "best" build in the game. There are, however, many builds which are head and shoulders above others; the reason you don't see these exclusively dominating tournaments is because player skill, luck, and the local metagame are all additional factors that determine who wins. If there are 50% Ork players in your area, it will skew which armies win tournaments in that area.


every codex has the option to put out more then 3 competative builds... it can put out as many as the players can think of... you just have to remember that the army list isn't the only factor in determining the competativeness of an army.

Codices are a finite resource- no matter how inventive the player is, he is limited by what is written in the book. Garbage in, garbage out, as they say. Some books simply have more useful options than others, and the "top end" builds from some books are better than others. Chaos Daemons do not have any good, plentiful, cheap ways to deal with transports- absolutely none. As a result, the book simply can't build a strong list, as being unable to kill transports in 5E is crippling. Necrons are just horribly overcosted and have almost zero upgrades to choose from, not to mention countless other issues. Neither of these books can field a competitive army, no matter how creative the player may be.

(When talking about different competitive lists, I generalize to major archetypes. Two all-jumpers BA lists with Libby and Priests and VV are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing if they include the same basic units. When I say 3+ lists, I mean clearly differentiated lists that play very differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.)

[Cyberscape7]

Okay, just had a game with my eldar and did a bit of reviewing. One note I've taken; my wraithlord. It is armed with 2 flamers a wraithsword and a shuriken cannon and a s you can probably tell its a CC wraithlord. Now although it doesnt have the best ranged firepower I don't want to build a new wraithlord with long range Tank huntin guns. All I want is to work out how to use this wraithlord effectively. Thoughts?

[DarkLink]

every codex has the option to put out more then 3 competative builds... it can put out as many as the players can think of... you just have to remember that the army list isn't the only factor in determining the competativeness of an army.

You do have to have a pretty loose definition of competitive to apply this to Grey Knights or Necrons, though.

[Master Bryss]

That game he just had can be found here now I've finished the write-up:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=11372

Might give a better overview of his style with Eldar.